Vic: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
John: All good? No?
Vic: There's never been a more appropriate time for this.
John: [Sounds of a glass breaking]
Vic: Yeah, you're welcome.
John: [Sounds of a glass breaking]
John: And there it is.
John: Very good, thank you.
John: Alright, intro time.
John: Pragmatic is a show about technology and contemplating the finer details in their practical application.
John: By exploring the real world trade-offs, we drive into how great ideas can be transformed into products and services that impact our lives.
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John: Just visit engineer.network/pragmatic to learn how you can help this show to continue to be made. Thank you.
John: Before we begin this episode, by popular request, official Pragmatic t-shirts are available again for a limited time with different drinkware and stickers also.
Vic: Pretty good, I need to order a new t-shirt.
John: If you're into that sort of thing, visit engineer.network/store for details.
John: I'm your host, John Chidjie, and today I'm once again joined by my good friend, Vic Hudson. How's it going, Vic?
John: You... hmm... well... it's there.
Vic: Let's just say I have horizontally outgrown the original one.
John: [Laughs]
John: I see. I see. And this is a thing that happens. You know, things... dimensions fluctuate over time.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: They are a variable, in fact, for all.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Very good. Well, you know where they are.
John: So, in any case, I just wanted to give listeners a couple of updates before we dive into this episode, which I'm very excited to be recording for a whole bunch of different reasons.
John: But I want to start with my recent trip to Arizona.
John: So, I went to Arizona, as I think I mentioned to you before, Vic, yeah.
Vic: Yes, mm-hm.
John: And I came back alive. No rattlesnakes got me.
John: And the altitude... no scorpions. No, I didn't see any scorpions. No. No, no, no.
Vic: That's good, scorpions?
Vic: Okay.
John: And on one of the evenings when I was over there, I was able to drive to... close to the border with Nevada, and I met up with Ronnie Lutz.
John: And had a great... had a great time. I met him, met his wife in person, and we had dinner, and I learned what white gravy was, and yeah.
Vic: Yes.
John: It was... it was a good time. It was great meeting him, actually.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: Wait, you learned what gravy was?
John: White. White. Oh my God. White gravy, mate. Jeez.
Vic: You've made it this far in your life without the fifth food group?
Vic: A white gravy.
John: Yes, I know what gravy is. I just don't know what white gravy was. Now I do. Thank you, Ronnie.
Vic: It's good stuff, man.
John: I concur. Yes.
John: Oh, he had... it was biscuits and something. But they weren't actually... yeah.
Vic: What did you have this white gravy on?
Vic: Sausage gravy.
John: They weren't actually biscuits, though. It was like a kind of a bread, like a... you know, you're American. You're supposed to know what that means.
John: Don't ask me to describe it. Something like that.
Vic: Maybe they were drop biscuits.
John: Anyway, it was kind of like...
Vic: They're not rolled and cut biscuits you make them.
John: No.
Vic: If it's what I'm thinking of, you make them by dropping a spoonful of dough on
Vic: the baking sheet there and then you just let them bake up.
Vic: And they break up and they tear up really good for putting gravy on.
John: Hmm.
John: Okay. Well, maybe. I don't know. All I know is that Ronnie was having it, and he shared, because Ronnie is awesome.
John: Anyway, so... he is. He is. He's a delight.
Vic: Ronnie's an awesome human being, he's the best.
John: And honestly, yeah, so I learned a lot more about him that I didn't know.
John: And his family and some of the similarities. And like between our two, we both have daughters that are the same...
John: almost exactly the same age, studying something with a medical angle, which is rather interesting.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And honestly, it's kind of crazy. But never mind. So, yeah. So that was a good time.
John: And the reason I was over there was presenting at the User Centric Design... User Centered Design Services, or UCDS, conference.
John: So, I gave my presentation, and there's a link in the show notes if anyone's interested about what I did.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And essentially, it was weird, because I was the only person presenting that was not a customer of theirs.
John: So, I... or a vendor. Like, I wasn't selling anything. Anyway.
John: So, the conference... so the conference day, the presentation was an hour long, and it was on the morning of the last day.
John: It was the second presentation on the last day. And at this point in time, I didn't realize it at the time,
Vic: Ooh.
John: but I was actually suffering from altitude sickness. I'd wake up at like one or two in the morning, and I'd have a splitting headache.
John: Now, I had had a few to drink the previous night, but as many people that know me wouldn't know, I don't get hangovers.
Vic: You're a lucky man.
John: I've never had a hangover in my entire life, and I've drunk plenty, believe me.
Vic: You're a lucky man.
John: Yeah, certainly seems like it. I'm going to thank my German and Scottish heritage.
John: But for whatever the reason, I don't get them. So, I'm... but I was waking up in the middle of the... like middle... early morning with a splitting headache.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Like, the headache woke me up. And I didn't realize, because the conference is being held in a town called Prescott.
John: Well, as the locals call it, Prescott. There is no "i" in the name, just being clear. But never mind.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: So, it's... it is quite literally a mile high. It's higher in altitude than Denver. Not by much, but enough.
John: So, it's quite common for people that aren't used to living at that altitude to develop mild altitude sickness, and that's what I had.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: So, I felt very... like, when I would get up from seated to standing, I would, you know, feel a little bit dizzy, a bit wobbly on my legs.
John: I just wasn't getting enough oxygen through my lungs because of the air pressure. And it's like, right, wow.
John: So, when I did my presentation, one of the problems when you're presenting is, funnily enough, you're doing a lot of talking.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And I'm a walk and talk guy. So, I wander around with a microphone when I'm talking, and I move my arms around.
John: And I, like, say, "Hey, yo. Hi." And all this sort of rubbish. And that all takes even more oxygen.
Vic: Yeah.
John: So, if I was just sitting there, I was okay. But if I was getting up, moving around... So, anyway.
John: So, at the end of my hour, at the end of the Q&A session, I nearly collapsed. I quite literally... the wall quite literally caught me.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: A couple of people came over to ask if I was okay, and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all right. I'm fine."
John: I just... clearly, I need... I need to drink more liquids. And I drank lots of, like, clear water, for the record.
John: I mean, as well as other stuff that was not clear, but never mind. But the point is that I drank lots of fluids, and it was not that.
Vic: Yeah.
John: Anyway, so, apart from that, it went well. I had some very...
Vic: It just takes time that you probably didn't have to adjust.
John: Yeah, I mean, they say that it can take some people up to two to three months to fully adjust.
John: And it's the sort of thing that you go there for a week. It's a whirlwind trip.
Vic: Yeah.
John: So, you get in, you do your thing, you get out, and you just suck it up. You know, keep popping ibuprofen and the like, you know.
Vic: Yep.
John: Anyway, so, I'm sorry that I wasn't close enough to come over to visit in Kentucky.
John: I really did want to. Unfortunately, just time and funds did not permit.
John: But, if anything, they've invited me to come back in the next conference. They do conferences every two years.
Vic: Nice.
John: So, they've invited me back to speak again in 2026. So, they obviously like me, so that's nice.
John: And, yeah. So, right. So, that was Arizona. And I came to America again and had a great time.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: It had been five and a bit years since I'd been in the US, and it was lovely to be back.
John: So, shame it couldn't have been longer. But anyway, so, there you go. Moving on.
John: Right. So, with the Engineer Network related stuff, I have been experimenting more with video.
John: So, people that have been following, yeah, it is. It's also a lot of work. Yeah.
Vic: Video's cool.
Vic: It is.
Vic: There's definitely that.
John: So, a few months ago, I had a problem with my Tesla Model 3, and I had to put it in for a service to get a wheel bearing joint hub assembly replaced.
Vic: Ouch.
John: Not under warranty. I'd just be clear on that, which kind of sucked. But anyway, so, yeah. Oh, well.
John: Anyway, in the six, five days it was out of action, they loaned me a Tesla Model S 100 dual motor,
John: which is ever so slightly faster than my Model 3 Standard Range Plus.
John: So, I had a bit of fun with that, I have to say. But I had, as fortune would have it,
John: I had only recently, like three or four weeks earlier, invested in a whole bunch of video gear.
John: And, you know, it's silly things like the Osmo Mobile 6, so it can, like, you run up the software, it tracks you as you move.
John: So, I was able to shoot some pretty decent, you know, footage for the Model S.
John: So, I did a review of the Model S, and I compared and contrasted it with the Model 3.
John: And I split it across two episodes, because I had nearly a half hour of material, and it was too long for one video.
John: So, I split it into two pieces and published that.
John: So, those are episodes 11 and 12 of Pragmatic Electric, and you can get that on the website.
John: I have my own independent RSS feed, just like I've had for years.
John: But I also have it posted on YouTube, if you prefer to look at it on YouTube.
John: But anyway, the point is, Pragmatic Electric, I've been doing that now for nearly two years.
John: It's not new, but what is new is that I've then outfitted the podcasting booth that I'm talking in right now,
John: you know, with video gear.
John: So, I've got my Nikon Z6 II, and I've got the widest angle lens that I've got on it.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And I've also installed a green screen, and I'm now experimenting with green screens
John: and recording video in the podcasting booth, talking head style.
Vic: Talking heads.
John: So, talking head style, yeah.
John: So, we're going to talk about what I did this initially for,
John: but the next thing I made with it is I actually recorded an episode of Causality
John: that is a video episode of Causality, and that's the episode of CrowdStrike, which is episode 55.
John: Now, it's only gone live to the public today.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Patrons have had it for a little while already, but it's gone public already now.
John: And I've had some great, positive, really positive feedback from the patrons that have watched it.
John: They love it.
John: Though I think that patrons generally will love what you do, generally,
Vic: Yeah.
John: because that's why they're patrons.
Vic: Right.
John: What I'm more concerned about is what the rest of the world thinks that aren't patrons.
John: You know, they're going to look at this, and they're going to say, "Hmm, I don't know, John.
John: I don't want to look at your head talking."
John: It's like, "Well, there's an audio version, and you don't have to look at my face.
John: Look at it like that."
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Anyway, so that video is now live.
John: There'll be a link in the show notes.
John: If you are a fan of Causality as well, then you can choose.
John: You can watch Causality, the podcast, which is episode 55, and that's the audio.
John: And the audio, I recorded it independently.
John: So I recorded the video first.
John: I tried to reuse the audio from the video to create episode 55 of the podcast.
John: It did not meet my standards, and so I'm like, "I'm rerecording it."
John: And the reason it didn't is because I was using the same microphone at a different gain setting.
John: So the near field on the EVRE20 has a very different dynamic range and frequency response
John: than it does when you're a little bit further away from it, even if you crank the gain.
John: It's not the same.
John: So I rerecorded it.
John: So I actually recorded the same episode twice.
John: But anyway, so yeah, check it out if you are a fan of Causality.
John: And what I've done is I've created a separate independent feed on the website,
John: but I have incorporated it into YouTube, into the Causality feed,
John: because I was already posting, "You know how you can export in Ferrite?
John: You can export a video movie of your podcast, and it just takes the still frames from your logo
John: and your chapter artwork and creates a video file."
John: Well, that's exactly what I have been doing for years now.
John: And that's what's in the Causality feed.
John: And I get plenty of views.
Vic: Yeah.
John: So I've got something like 20-something thousand views on a couple of the episodes.
John: So it's got decent traction.
John: So this one, unlike the others, actually has live video.
John: So it's not a video in name only.
John: It's actual video with me actually in it.
John: So anyway.
John: All righty. Oh, yeah, that's it.
John: And on the website, I had to call it something.
John: And I had this thing where I'm like, "Well, I don't want to call it Causality Live
John: because it's not live.
John: I didn't want to call it Causality Video because that doesn't sound right."
John: The way I got around this with Pragmatic is I called it Pragmatic Electric.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And I recreated the Pragmatic logo using motion, Apple Motion,
John: and I created a three-dimensional representation of the logo with the depth perspective,
John: and I also created a little animation for the beginning of Pragmatic Electric.
John: Now, I want to do the same thing with Causality,
John: and once I figured out the name of it, first of all,
John: so I'm getting off sidetracked already.
John: So I didn't like Causality Video.
John: I didn't like Causality Live.
John: And I don't know, causality in brackets, John's talking face,
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: that's not really going to work.
John: It's not what you want probably.
John: So I called it Causality TV simply because I couldn't come up with something better,
John: and it was simple, it was concise,
John: and honestly, I'm not even going to refer to it as that.
Vic: I think that works, man.
John: Yeah, it kind of works.
John: I'm not even going to refer to it as that.
John: It'll be called Causality TV just because I had to call it something on the website
John: because I can't have two separate feeds each called Causality.
John: They've got to be separate.
Vic: Right.
John: So one feed is the unchanged audio feed,
John: and the other one will be an independent feed which will be video RSS,
John: just like Pragmatic Electric and just like the other show that I've launched a few weeks ago
John: that we're going to talk about in this episode.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: So it's out there.
John: Check it out if you're a fan of causality.
John: If you're not a fan of causality, check it out anyway.
John: You might become a fan of causality or not.
John: Who knows?
John: Never mind.
Vic: What's generating your thumbnails?
Vic: Or not your thumbnails, shit.
Vic: Your, mm-mm-mm-mm, the captioning, the captioning.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: In the videos, oh, it's auto-generated.
Vic: Okay, yeah, because I had your little talking head on mute going just a second ago,
John: Yeah, it does that.
Vic: just glancing at it while you were talking.
Vic: And it got to the part where you introduced yourself and it said, I'm John Chigi,
Vic: and it's spelled Chigi, C-H-I-J-I.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: I was like, oh, we got something auto-generated here.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Yeah, no, you got that right.
John: I could run it through Mac Whisper which does a far better job
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: and then go through and edit it and re-upload it,
John: but I'm not going to do that.
Vic: I would wait and see if the project warrants the time investment first.
John: No.
John: Yeah, exactly right, and I'm not going to spend the time before I know it's going to be of interest.
John: So getting back to the logo for causality, the video edition of it,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: what I did with it is I did recreate it in motion,
John: and the difference is, and it may not be obvious if you think about it,
John: it probably is obvious, if you look at the Pragmatic logo,
John: it consists of three elements.
John: There's a spanner in the middle or a wrench, you know,
John: for the Americans in the audience.
John: There's a cog, and there is the word Pragmatic.
John: You have essentially got three elements in the entire logo.
John: So that was designed originally by Aaron Mankey, of course, of Lore fame, L-O-R-E.
John: So that was back when he was running Wet Frog Studio, so he did the logo for me.
John: And it is one of the best logos that I've had, but causality is not.
John: Causality is made up of a lot of elements because you've got the word causality,
John: the six components in the Ishikawa diagram,
John: then each of the arrows is not actually an arrow.
John: It's an arrow head, it is an arrow body, and it is a circle at the end,
John: and that is a compound object.
John: So each arrow on each of the fishbone diagram is actually three objects,
John: and there's six of them, and then you've got the primary arrow,
John: which leads into the word causality.
John: Now, I didn't add that up, but it's a hell of a lot more than three,
Vic: Yes.
John: and I had no end of problems with scale,
John: and what I was trying to do was replicate what had been made by--
John: so the graphic designer that briefly did graphic design for me
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: was a guy called Brian Janvier, a French guy, very talented,
John: and he developed this for me after lots of back and forth,
John: but the truth was that replicating it, I realized that whilst visually it looked okay,
John: I'd gotten used to the imperfections, and some of the letters and words didn't line up,
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: and the arrows weren't exactly the same angle,
Vic: Yeah.
John: so it wasn't a mirror from top to bottom.
John: So I'm looking at this, and it's offending my sensibilities.
John: I'm looking at this, and I'm like, "Hmm, it's not symmetrical. I don't know."
Vic: [LAUGH] Yeah.
John: And so I'm tweaking it, and I'm retweaking it, and I'm retweaking it.
John: I'm like, "I don't like the arrowhead shape. It doesn't quite look right."
John: And I spent 20 hours in Apple Motion over a period of probably about six weeks
John: just doing that logo, and it got to the end of it.
John: And I'm like, "You know what? I need to animate this now,
John: and I'll be buggered if I'm going to spend another 20 hours animating all of these things."
John: So I decided for the intro for the first episode to just do a Ken Burns effect
John: where you start with the logo.
Vic: That's what I was gonna say.
Vic: What about just a nice subtle pan and zoom?
John: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: It was a very slow Ken Burns-style zoom.
John: And I'm like, "You know what? That works for episode one."
Vic: Hey.
Vic: The Ken Burns is a classic for a reason.
John: Yeah, it is surprisingly effective.
John: So you know what? That's it. There you go.
John: So I wanted to do more, and I wanted to do things like animations and stuff like that,
John: but it takes so much time.
John: So doing an episode of "Causality," the video version of it, is probably--
John: and this will come as no surprise to anyone who's done video--
John: it's three times the amount of effort, easily, of the audio.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And that's the creation, right?
John: That doesn't include any of the development, like the research and show notes.
John: That's not included in that calculation.
Vic: Yeah.
John: This is just production and post-production.
Vic: You got your pre-production, you got your production,
Vic: you've got your filming, you got your edit,
John: Yeah.
Vic: you got your post-production.
Vic: There's a lot to it, a lot of pieces.
John: So once you go through all of that, you realize if the payoff's not worth it,
John: I'm not going to be doing a lot of it.
Vic: Yeah.
John: But anyway, it's okay. It's all good.
John: So it's up. Enjoy or not, either way, it's there.
John: On the website, back when I started doing "Pragmatic Electric" a few years ago,
John: in the top right-hand corner of all of the squares,
John: there is an indicator to show you it's an audio podcast,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: and there's a little video symbol to indicate that it is a video podcast or a video show.
John: Calling something that's video with an RSS feed is not a podcast,
John: if that offends your sensibilities.
John: Although I'm pretty sure Adam Curry is okay with that
John: because you could have video as an enclosure and an RSS feed.
John: I think his objection is more around calling YouTube "podcasting"
John: because there's no RSS feed, and there isn't, and he's right about that,
Vic: Right.
Vic: Yeah.
John: and it's messed up, which is why I don't just post it on YouTube
Vic: Right.
John: because I want it to be open,
John: and I want people to watch it on whatever platform they want.
John: And if anyone ever says, "You know, John, I'm offended by your face,
John: and I'm going to report you for having a face,"
John: I mean, I don't know. I don't know.
Vic: Wow.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Look, people-- Seriously, man, people get deplatformed for the dumbest of reasons.
John: The hate crowd are like, "You offended my father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate,
John: and therefore I will come and hunt you down, and I'm going to deplatform you."
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: I mean, I have seen the craziest rubbish in this world that we live in,
John: so I want to keep it open and freely available, and that is why I do it separately.
John: It's an extra step, but I feel good about it, and hopefully other people will--
John: because I know they get downloads because I have it all tracked through IP3,
John: and I know that Pragmatic Electric gets a good 20, 30 downloads an episode direct RSS.
John: So, you know, not as many as YouTube, but still gets them.
Vic: Yeah.
John: Anyway. Alrighty. Any other questions on that before we dive into the main topic?
Vic: No, I think I'm ready.
John: All right. Now, this has unfortunately come at a time for you when you've been taking a break, I believe.
Vic: That's not unfortunate.
John: Well, okay. You have a wealth of experience in this topic because of your-- because of-- yeah.
Vic: I do.
John: Yes. And I, in this particular case, am the newbie in the room. I'll be honest with you. I am.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: I do, that is fair to say.
John: So I want to tell you this story. I have launched--
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: I'm-- well, I'm--
John: Okay.
John: Okay. So--
John: Fair enough, then. All right. So what in the hell are we talking about?
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Okay. So I-- so I've launched a new show that is called Whiskey Whiskey.
John: And oddly enough, the show is about whiskey.
Vic: You don't say.
John: And I call it whiskey-- I know, right? I would have thunk it with a name like that.
John: I thought it was about avocados for a second.
John: So, yeah. Whiskey is spelt W-H-I-S-K-Y in some parts of the world,
Vic: Mm.
John: and there's an E-Y in other parts.
Vic: Yeah, but those parts, those parts without the E, they're wrong.
John: Okay. So here's the thing. I have--
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: It just doesn't look right to me.
Vic: And I will add that Safari is flagging it with the red line like it needs spelling correct, just for the record.
John: Mm-hmm. That's fine with me.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: The reason that I called the show Whiskey Whiskey is because I spelled the word--
John: the two different ways that it's spelt, depending on where you are in the world.
John: Because it doesn't matter what you call it, it is still awesome.
John: So that is the reason that I do that.
John: Anyway, you'll only notice that in the spelling, of course, but in any case.
John: All right. So why on earth would I do this?
John: So a bit of history with me and alcohol, just from the early days.
John: So when I first started drinking alcohol, which, you know, was--
John: I was always of legal age, stating that now. Thank you.
John: Always, definitely.
John: And anyway, I was never into beer. I was never really into wine.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And I started out with the usual sort of fare, and they were things like, you know, rum.
John: And I always had a soft spot for some liqueurs, particularly Sambuca, because I love licorice.
Vic: Mm.
Vic: Yeah.
John: People--many people hate licorice with a passion. That's okay. You do you. I love that stuff.
John: But I don't have it very often because I've got to be in the right mood.
John: Anyway, but then, of course, I also was into bourbon whiskey.
John: And I started out with--Jim Beam was my favorite for the longest time.
John: I started out with white label, went up to black label when I could afford the--a bit extra for the bottle,
John: because it was--it sat a little bit nicer.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And more or less that's all that I would--when I did drink, which wasn't often, really,
John: especially--certainly once I got married and had kids, wasn't going out partying very often.
John: Not that I was ever really big into that necessarily, but the point is that I went out there
John: and I would choose essentially bourbon would be my drink of choice.
John: Now, I tried a few, like, blended scotches, but I'd never really given single malts or, like, you know,
John: I guess you could call them classier, more refined.
John: I'd never tried an Irish whiskey.
John: I'd never tried--well, there were no Australian whiskeys at the time.
John: I mean, so I was--I had a very limited range.
Vic: Really?
John: And I did, but, like, as recently as 10, 15 years ago.
Vic: No, no, no, I mean, really, no Australian whiskeys back then?
John: Not until 30 years ago.
Vic: Really?
John: No, and they were very niche.
Vic: That's interesting.
John: Yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
Vic: Okay.
John: I'll get to that.
John: Yeah, I'll get to that.
John: And so bottom line was that my--the blended scotches I'd tried, the first one I tried was Johnny Walker Red,
John: unsurprisingly, and then the other one was Chivas Regal 12 Year.
Vic: Mm.
John: And I wasn't a huge fan of either of them at the time, and so I just stuck with bourbon.
John: And I progressed onto things like--like I was introduced to Wild Turkey, and I'm like,
John: "Oh, that's better than Jim Beam," so I stopped drinking Jim Beam completely.
Vic: Most things are better than Jim Beam.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: You're not wrong.
John: So I switched from that to Wild Turkey, and then I discovered Wild Turkey 101, and that was even better,
John: and I drank nothing.
Vic: That's the cake and chicken.
John: Oh, that is so nice.
John: I love that stuff.
John: It's beautiful.
John: But here's the thing.
John: It's not like I drank a lot because I didn't, but the truth is that that was my drink of choice.
John: Then I got gifted a bottle of Lavalin 16 Year, which is a peated whiskey, and I tried it, and I'm like,
John: "This is just weird.
John: I can't drink it," like because I tried drinking it straight because that's what I was told,
John: "No, you've got to drink it straight."
John: I'm like, "I just didn't like it."
Vic: Yeah.
John: It was, like, really overpowering, not very pleasant, and then I mixed it with, you know,
John: some Coca-Cola to make it more drinkable.
John: And the reaction that I got when people had seen me do this was like, "Yeah, you have just murdered that scotch.
Vic: I was, ooh, ooh.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: Yes.
John: You have killed it.
John: It is dead, and we hate you now on principle."
John: And I'm like, "What the hell just happened?"
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: Most people are pretty sensible if you throw some ice in it, pour it over ice, but much more than that, and people get pretty offended.
John: Yeah, I was quite surprised.
John: I was very surprised, but I also tried to shake things up a little bit and tried a Glenfiddich 12,
John: which is another single malt, quite a popular one, actually, but they sell millions of bottles of that every year.
John: But, you know, again, drinking it straight was just a bridge too far, and I did put ice on it a couple times,
John: but honestly, I just couldn't get into it.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Anyway, at an after-work event earlier this year, I forget what it was.
John: It wasn't a Lavalin 16.
John: It was a different one anyway, and they brought me a scotch, didn't tell me what it was, and I put ice in it,
John: and that was enough to offend people.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And they're like, "All right."
John: I'm like, "I am clearly missing something.
John: All right, I am 47 now.
John: I'm now 48 because I have my birthday in August, but there you go."
John: But I was 47 at the time, and I'm like, "You know what?
John: Clearly, I'm missing something.
John: If all these people are telling me that scotch whiskey is incredible and I should try it and try and understand it
John: rather than murdering it all the time, clearly, I'm missing something here."
John: So I did some research, and I'm like, "Look, I'm not going to go to a bar and order one of every scotch
John: and try them one after the other until I find one I like.
John: That's a very expensive proposition, and that's not what I want to do."
Vic: And a rough trip home.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: And a very rough trip home.
John: So I looked into some liquor subscription services, and what they want to do is they want to sell you, like,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: a bottle a month, you know, a $100 to $150 bottle every month.
John: And I'm like, "I don't have $150 a month to be burning on alcohol that I've never tried."
Vic: Ouch.
John: And they want to sell you a bottle at the time.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And so I made a promise to myself, "I'm not going to buy a bottle of any alcohol until I have tried it first,
John: and I don't think that's unreasonable."
Vic: No.
John: So all of these whiskey subscription services that I came across, they all had that same flaw, except one of them.
John: So this particular one is run by a company in Australia called Liquor Loot.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: They used to be called Whiskey Loot, but they changed their name to Liquor Loot because they want to do the same thing
John: with whiskey, but they wouldn't do it with gin because there's a big gin distilling...
Vic: Mm.
John: There's as many gin nuts out there as there are whiskey nuts, so I've learned.
Vic: Basically, if there's a type of alcohol or a distilled spirit of any sort, there's a crowd for it.
John: Well, I haven't come across Cognac Loot yet, but you never know.
Vic: Mm.
John: Anyway, moving on.
John: So, yes, so I...
Vic: The vodka people are an interesting breed.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Mmm, just give me the gray goose, mate.
John: So that stuff is smooth, I was going to say, but never mind.
Vic: Okay.
John: All right.
John: So this subscription service, and I cover this in episode three of "Whiskey, Whiskey,"
John: they send you this little sample box, and there's 60 mils in each box, which is two standards, essentially,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: in each of these little glass bottles.
John: And you get three bottles a month, and it's a selection of what they think you might like.
John: And they travel around the world, like, "Oh, we're going to do Scotch whiskeys.
John: Oh, okay, we're going to do Irish whiskeys.
John: Okay, we're going to do single grains.
John: We're going to do single mils.
John: We're going to do, like, whatever."
John: And they send you these, and you try them, and they have tasting videos and tasting notes,
John: and it's really nicely done.
John: And so the first one of these, and I got a six-month subscription of it because it was a good deal,
John: and I'm like, "I am going to try and understand whiskey.
John: I am going to try."
John: Okay?
John: And the very first box, they had a McCallan 12, 12-year sherry oak.
John: Now, this thing was so damn good.
Vic: Yeah.
John: It was just delightful.
John: And honestly, I love that stuff so much that I actually bought myself a bottle.
John: And it's not cheap, necessarily.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: That's my special occasion, you know, Scotch.
John: And so I started learning more about all the different things I didn't know about whiskey at that point.
John: So that's why I started making Whiskey Whiskey is because I'm like, "Right, everything that I've learned,
John: I want to do an episode where I, like, I'll sample one, give my thoughts and impressions on it,
John: and talk about one aspect of it."
John: And it's going to depend on each episode and what that is.
John: You know, like I've covered things like the different kinds of whiskeys, you know, like single blend, single malt,
John: all that stuff.
John: We'll get to that.
John: I've covered things like in the episodes to date about changes to our palate.
John: Because the things that--why did I not understand this stuff until I got a bit older,
John: until I could appreciate it?
John: It's like, well, taste buds in your mouth start to deteriorate as you get older,
John: which means that different flavor profiles that you used to not like now become more palatable.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: So it's an age thing, which is why I've also been able to get into wine more recently as well.
John: It's like because my palate's changing.
John: So I'm learning more about what my palate is like now.
John: And I'm actually eating foods these days that I didn't eat or wouldn't eat 10, 15 years ago.
John: It's just because my tastes are changing.
John: It's a real thing.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: It's a scientific fact.
John: It's just something that I never really bothered exploring until recently.
John: So one of the other things that I was encouraged to do as I found out,
John: I came across an Australian YouTuber, whiskey tuber, they call them, or some call them,
John: a guy called The Whiskey Scribe.
John: And he encouraged people watching his videos to join a whiskey club
John: because whiskey clubs are a good way, an economical way of trying whiskeys.
John: And I'm like, oh, that's a really good idea because you pay like $60, $65 a month to go as a guest,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: and that gives you either six or seven that you can try.
Vic: Right.
John: And there's no way you could go to any bar, no matter where you went,
Vic: I was gonna say, for some of the things I'm sure you'll be trying, that's a relatively inexpensive shot.
John: and get those whiskeys for that amount of money.
John: It's like half what that would cost or a third depending upon.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Mm-hmm.
John: So I joined a whiskey club, and I went to the first meeting just on Wednesday,
John: literally Wednesday, just gone.
John: So we're recording this on a Saturday, so literally four days ago.
John: And it was incredible, actually.
John: It was really, really fun.
John: And it was a Japanese night, so we covered--
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: and they call them--it's all, of course, Scottish names because it's all focused on Scotch whiskey,
John: but they also do other whiskeys from around the world, thankfully.
John: But still, anyway, so they call the club, except each of the different groups.
John: Anyway, so this particular one was in North Brisbane.
John: There's a whole bunch of them, actually, in North Brisbane, but it doesn't matter.
John: This particular one, anyway.
John: So I went to that, and now a Japanese tasting night.
John: So I can now say I have tried my first ever $1,000 whiskey.
John: It was all right.
John: I'm not buying it because that's a lot of money.
Vic: That's a lot of money.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: That's a lot of money.
John: But it was nice.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: I'm sure it was.
John: It was nice.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: It was nice, but not $1,000 nice.
John: And I also tried a very rare single blend, which is one of those ones that they say,
John: "Oh, what? Single blend? There's no such thing."
John: But, yeah, there is, and it was like a Kirin Fuji single blend whiskey, non-age statement.
John: But, yeah, and it was absolutely delightful.
John: And I would buy that, and that's only $110 Australian, so that's far more affordable.
John: But I have not bought one yet.
John: Maybe someday we'll see.
John: All right.
John: So before I get too down the rabbit hole here, I want to just talk about what I learned about enjoying whiskey properly.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And you probably--I'm not sure how much of this is Scotch culture or how much of this is in bourbon culture,
John: but do you know what a Glencan glass is?
Vic: No, you're speaking too fancy for me.
John: Okay.
John: So 20 years ago, there was a company called Glencan, which is G-L-E-N-C-A-I-R-N, pronounced Glencan.
John: And they produced a glass design that has become the standard as a nosing glass for drinking whiskeys.
John: And what it does is it has--essentially, the bottom of the glass is sort of like--
John: it has bulges at the bottom and it's a solid bit of glass at the bottom, and that's the base.
John: And then it has a little bit of an onionish sort of a shape at the bottom,
John: and then it kind of looks a little bit like a champagne flute, but it's not as narrow.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: So it's got a wider bottom, and it comes up to a smaller opening at the top.
John: And when you actually--yeah, a little bit like a stemless wine glass, exactly.
Vic: Kind of like a stemless wine glass.
John: It's designed specifically for smelling or nosing, as they like to say in the biz, nosing whiskey.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And it really does make quite a difference.
John: And just to stay in theme for this episode, right now in my Glencan glass, I have some 12-year Chivas Regal.
Vic: Nice.
John: So there you go.
John: Yes, it is lovely, actually.
John: I prefer the 18, but then it's three times the price, so I don't prefer it that much right now.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: But yes, so the Chivas 12 is fine.
John: It's the Johnny Walker Red of Chivas, but that's okay.
John: Anyway, so there's all these different glass types.
John: The traditional whiskey glass, it's okay, which is, you know, just essentially it's a cylinder.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: It's not tapered in any way, really, and it's a very straightforward glass.
John: And it's fine, and you'll get a decent aroma from it.
John: It's just nosing glasses like the Glencan, for example, are quite popular.
John: You can get another variant also made by Glencan that does have a stem,
John: but it's a much shorter stem than you'd get on a wine glass.
John: And it's designed that you hold the stem so that you don't warm up the whiskey with your heat from your hand.
John: But some people don't like them.
John: They call them the Kopita glass.
John: The problem with the Kopita glass is that they don't feel as stable as a Glencan glass
John: because they don't have the base on them.
John: It's not as solid, but still.
John: Anyway, whatever.
John: So that's the smelling bit.
John: So the second thing is, of course, the tasting bit,
John: and that's where I'd gone wrong a lot in the past is I just would chug it, rinse it around the mouth, and swallow it.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: And it's like...
John: That's not how you're supposed to drink it, John.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: How would you drink--when you're trying to savor the taste of a bourbon, how would you drink it?
John: Mm.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Yep.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Well, see, I've got to state for the record, though,
John: and I hope you got this vibe from that particular episode of Whiskey Whiskey is
John: I do think it is a little bit pretentious, some of the terminology.
John: It's a little bit, you know?
John: Mm.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm.
John: Yeah, okay, I take that.
John: Well, okay, I take that point.
John: I guess what I mean is that maybe the pretentiousness is the people in the whiskey space that are like,
John: "Okay, well, I'm going to--now we're going to see."
Vic: >> Well, let's just call it what it is.
John: Yeah.
Vic: There's some downright snobs out there.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Oh, this is the thing, as I've learned very quickly.
John: And going around at the whiskey club, you could pick out the ones that were really the more snobbish,
John: but thankfully the majority of people at the club were super laid back, very friendly, very open about it,
John: and they were just honest about how they believed that it tasted and where it ranked when we were scoring them.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And, you know, it's like--so to me, the people that are like, "Oh, no, you've got to call that the palate.
John: You know, you can't call it--this is how it tastes."
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: I was like, "Yeah, okay, sure."
John: And this is the finish.
John: It's like, "Well, that's the aftertaste."
John: So you've got the taste and the aftertaste.
John: "Yeah, but finish is one word."
John: I'm like, "Oh, my God. It doesn't matter. You know what I'm talking about.
John: It's potato, potato, surely."
John: Anyway, all right.
John: So when I taste a scotch or a whiskey now--and I've got to be careful calling it scotch because scotch is just whiskey.
John: It's just that it's made in Scotland.
John: So that's it, the only difference.
John: But, yeah, so--well, not the only difference, but that's the main reason you call it scotch, but it doesn't matter.
John: So any whiskey now is--I will take, as you said, a small sip, and I will let that sit solely on my tongue for at least one or two seconds.
Vic: Yep.
John: And then what I--it's like the saliva in your mouth will start to dilute that a little bit,
John: and that's when I start washing that around my mouth, and then I'll swallow it after a few more seconds.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: And the idea of that is to let it cross all of the parts of your tongue because, you know,
John: it's like going back to your taste sensors and receptors on your tongue, like you get a different part of the tongue,
John: the forward, the side, and different sides and the back, but for salty, for sweet, for, you know, bitter,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: it's like it's all the different parts of the tongue.
John: So you've got to wash that over your tongue.
John: And if you don't dilute it a little bit because it's got to be at least 40% alcohol by volume, it's going to burn a little bit.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And you'd be surprised.
John: And I find just letting it sit on my tongue for a couple of seconds is all it takes, and it just--it changes the whole experience,
John: whereas previously I hadn't done that, and I'm--yeah.
Vic: Well, it's point blank, it's at the risk of sounding pretentious.
Vic: If you really want to experience all the flavor notes,
Vic: and if you want to experience the notes,
Vic: and you want to distinguish what makes Wild Turkey better than Jim Beam,
Vic: or any other as far up the scale as you want to go,
Vic: you want to experience what makes these things different,
Vic: and what sets them apart.
Vic: That's the only way.
John: I'll tell you a true story about the wild turkey.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: I had been drinking that stuff with mixes not neat and not on the rocks, just I'd been mixing it,
John: and I'd loved the hell out of that stuff, just mixed.
John: It was just incredible, so nice.
John: And then once I learned how to taste it properly, I went back and I retried it neat,
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: now that I could actually savor it and pick out the vanilla and I could pick out the different notes in it.
Vic: Right.
John: And I'm like, "Damn, [bleep] good."
John: [laughs]
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: And that's not to say--
John: And--
Vic: I mean, there's definitely a place for a good bourbon and Coke,
Vic: or a scotch and Coke.
Vic: There's nothing wrong with that.
Vic: But there's a certain class of these drinks
Vic: that you've invested enough money in them
Vic: that you want to experience them as they are.
Vic: And it does feel kind of wrong to dump it into a glass of soda,
Vic: or whatever, or God forbid, some people add water.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Yeah, no.
Vic: Yeah.
John: No, I've reached a point where I can't abide that either, but in any case.
John: So, yeah, so there you go.
John: Anyway, so--sidetracked there, but anyway, moving back.
John: Okay, so the finish is the aftertaste, like I said.
John: That's what--and I find the most bizarre thing that I've learned is actually finish,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: because I can rank whiskeys that I've tried now by the duration of their finish,
John: and it's like sometimes, like you'll drink something--
John: like this Chevus 12 Year that I'm very slowly sipping from time to time as we're talking,
John: it has a very short finish.
John: Like it'll be gone--like the flavor of it is gone in probably 10 seconds after I've swallowed it,
John: and it's like--I'm like--I mean I'm aware that I've had some whiskey,
John: but I couldn't tell you what it was 10 seconds after I'd had it because there's no lingering anything.
John: It's not a bad thing.
John: It's just like what I've learned is that a longer finish is generally a sign of a more complex whiskey,
John: something that's generally aged longer or in a variety of different kinds of barrels.
John: So it's kind of like my McAllen 12 Year Sherry Oak, for example.
John: That has got a finish that goes on for minutes afterwards,
Vic: Nice.
John: and it is so delightful that you're like--you're breathing--as you're breathing in and out
John: for those few minutes after you've had it, I'm like--I can still smell the McAllen on my breath,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: whereas this, I can't smell the Chevus on my breath.
John: I can't taste it anymore after like 10 seconds.
John: It's gone, and it's fascinating to me because to me it almost is inexplicable,
John: but it is a genuine difference, and so the finish is a big deal I think often overlooked.
John: Another funny one is legs, and I'm like when they said legs--yeah.
Vic: Yeah, that's actually--
Vic: I'd never learned about that at all until I watched your episode.
Vic: That was pretty interesting to me.
John: Yeah, it is interesting because it's like it's got to do with two factors.
John: The first factor is the viscosity of the liquid, and the second one is the amount of oil content,
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: so if you've got a high viscosity whiskey and it also has a decent oil content,
John: you'll get big, thick, slow-running legs.
John: If you've got--sorry, you'll get lots of little narrow legs.
John: If you've got a low viscosity one and it's got a high oil content,
John: you'll get much wider, thicker, slow-running legs on it.
John: So it's a really--it's kind of the poor man's way of telling whether or not it's an oily whiskey essentially
John: because they do chill filter a lot of these to get rid of some of the artifacts you'll get
John: and cloudiness at lower--when it gets to lower temperatures,
John: which will get rid of a lot of the natural oils in it.
John: So it's also a sign of whether it's chill filtered or not.
John: It's not definitive, but it gives you a bit of an idea.
John: So I mean, just looking at this now, I know you can't see me doing it,
John: but the Chivas 12 actually does have some nice, slow-moving legs.
John: They're not super thick, though, but still not as nice as a Chivas 18.
John: And you can tell--I can tell the difference now.
John: If you tell me they're both Chivas just from the legs, I can tell you which is which.
John: But now I'm getting to be a bit of a snob on that already.
John: It's only been three months, but never mind.
Vic: [LAUGH] It happens.
John: All right.
John: I know, right?
John: The last one is color.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: The thing about color is they rank the color, and I've learned real fast you can't trust color.
Vic: No.
John: You may as well not even look at it because people add color to their damn whiskey
John: to make it look darker because darkness is a sign of supposedly quality, right?
Vic: Yeah.
John: I mean, is that--do you have that in bourbon as well?
Vic: I think so, yeah.
Vic: I haven't had the opportunity to mingle with many connoisseurs, so to speak.
Vic: But yeah, I think a lot of people put a lot of stock in the color of it.
Vic: And a lot of people mistakenly assume that it also is a statement of age, too.
Vic: They just generally assume that the darker it is, the more it's been aged, or the better it was aged.
John: Yeah, exactly right.
John: I mean, what I've learned is that people will add coloring.
John: Generally, E150A, I think, to whiskeys for legitimate reasons and illegitimate reasons.
Vic: Mm-hm.
Vic: Yeah.
John: So an example of a legitimate reason is let's say, like, one of my favorite whiskeys is an Irish whiskey called--
John: but made by Bushmills.
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: Now, let's just say you're Bushmills, and you have got 1,000 barrels.
John: They were all, you know, distilled and barreled, same amount of time, same everything,
John: but four or five of the barrels had a slightly different char or a slightly different history,
John: and therefore the color of the whiskey that came out of them was much lighter than every other barrel.
John: Now, you chuck all this in a vat, and you compare this to last year's bottling,
John: and the color's not quite right, and you want to have a consistent product.
Vic: Yeah.
John: So you add a teeny bit of coloring to make sure that the color matches
Vic: Mm-hm.
John: because you want to put out a consistent product.
John: And so that's a legitimate use of a coloring agent.
John: An illegitimate use is Dodgy Brothers down the back.
John: They made some whiskey, and they're like, "This stuff is effectively clear.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: It has been aged for three minutes."
Vic: Because it just came off.
Vic: I was fixing to say, because it just came out of the still a few months ago.
John: [laughter]
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: Yeah.
John: So I'm going to add a whole bunch of this coloring, and I'm going to sell it as a 12-year.
Vic: [LAUGH]
John: I'm just like, "That is an example of an illegitimate use of color."
John: So what it's taught me real quick, Vic--
Vic: Boy, is that an entirely different drinking experience.
John: Yes, it is. It is.
John: So it's like what I've learned is color doesn't tell you anything.
John: Anyway, all right.
John: So that's appreciating a whiskey, and I think we should now talk about how on earth you make whiskey.
John: And I don't know. Do you want to kick this one off? I've talked a lot.
Vic: Well, first you're going to need a lot of corn.
John: For a bourbon, I would agree. Yes. Yes. Yep.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: Yeah, yeah.
John: Let's talk bourbons.
Vic: You need some grain, and you need some water, and you need some yeast.
John: Mm-hmm.
Vic: And then you can also throw some kick--
Vic: if you want to kickstart the process and boost your alcohol content a little bit,
Vic: you can add in some sugar.
Vic: A lot of people add things like amylase, which is an enzyme,
Vic: which I use it in my doughs to-- like a bread that's really soft
Vic: and stays soft longer.
Vic: More like-- I don't know if you've ever done much home baking of bread,
Vic: but if you ever bake a loaf of bread at home,
Vic: you'll notice right off the bat that while it is really good
Vic: and it maintains its flavor, its shelf life for softness
Vic: compared to store-bought breads is about a day and a half.
John: Yes.
John: Mm. Yep. That's true. Yeah, you're right.
Vic: [LAUGH]
Vic: But you can put amylase in it, and that extends that shelf life
Vic: of your home-baked bread to make it stay softer longer.
Vic: And it's a digestive enzyme that helps yeast to break down starches
John: Cool.
Vic: into sugars that are more digestible for the yeast,
Vic: which they can then convert to the alcohol.
Vic: So you can put stuff like that in there too.
John: Mm-hmm.
Vic: And basically you're going to heat this stuff up to around, typically,
Vic: 80 to 100 degrees, maybe a little above that, not a lot.
Vic: You just want it to be warm to the touch, just to activate the yeast.
Vic: But you don't want it too hot to kill the yeast.
Vic: But it has to be warm or the yeast won't activate for your fermentation.
Vic: That's why areas like Appalachia and in the States and stuff like that--
Vic: and I'm going to imagine you've got plenty of areas in Australia too
Vic: that would be good for this.
Vic: Nice, warm, humid climates are the best for fermenting your mash.
Vic: But you put all this into whatever kind of bins you're mashing into.
Vic: And this is called the mash. I've jumped ahead of the game there.
Vic: But this is called the mash.
John: That's right. No, that's fine.
Vic: And basically you're just going to let that sit.
Vic: And you're going to let that yeast do its job, and it's going to ferment,
Vic: and it's going to basically break down all the starches and sugars
Vic: and convert them into alcohol.
John: Mm-hmm.
Vic: And at that point you have what they would call--
Vic: well, they call it beer, but it is beer.
Vic: It's essentially beer. It's just uncarbonated because it wasn't bottled.
John: Yeah.
Vic: If you bottle it, then the fermentation produces the CO2 that carbonates it.
John: Yep.
Vic: Unlike sodas--a lot of people don't know this,
Vic: but anybody that's really into it knows this--
Vic: but beers, they don't add carbonation like they do soda.
Vic: It gets its carbonation from the fermentation process.
Vic: So when your mash is ready to run, it's essentially a beer or a wine
Vic: if you've made it from fruit.
Vic: But with grains, they tend to just call it a beer.
Vic: And then it's ready to run through the still.
Vic: You want me to keep going, or you want to hop in? [laughs]
John: All right. So before we get to stills, yeah.
John: So before we get on to stills then, so we've now created ourselves our mash,
Vic: Yes.
John: and it's fermented, and we're ready to then put in the still.
John: So for bourbons, there's rules.
John: There's lots of rules.
Vic: [laughs] Yeah. And people are picky about them too.
John: Yeah.
John: There's... Oh, yeah, not wrong.
Vic: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John: So, for example, with bourbons, you have to have at least 51% corn,
John: and then you can add anything else you like after that.
John: I think there's very few restrictions.
John: Like, a lot of them will throw a bit of rye in there, sometimes wheat,
John: but, yeah, different grains, as you said.
Vic: Occasionally some barley. Yeah.
John: Yeah, and occasionally barley. Absolutely right, yes.
Vic: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John: So when it comes to Irish whiskeys, though, they have a different set of rules.
John: So Irish whiskeys, they can't have more than 30% of malted barley
John: and 30% of unmalted barley in them.
John: The rest can be whatever they want.
John: And so one of the things that I haven't--I've got all the notes down for this,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: but I haven't actually really recorded this episode yet, but we'll be covering it.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: I'll be covering it specifically, it being malted and unbalted barley,
John: because I'm like, "What the hell's the difference between malted and unbalted barley?"
John: It's like, so unmalted barley is just harvested barley, you know,
John: but malted barley is when essentially you put it in an environment
Vic: Yep. It's germinated, and it's just barely started to sprout.
John: where it starts to want to sprout and germinate, like, yeah.
John: Yeah, and that's at the point where you want to absolutely put the brakes on it and stop,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and then you want to dry that stuff out,
John: and that's what you want to then put in your mash, and that's malted barley.
John: And the reason they do that is to change the--because that actual sprouting process
John: will improve the amount of essentially--I think it's--I'm trying to remember if it's starches.
John: I think it's starches.
John: The content of it will change, and it'll produce much more alcohol for the same amount.
John: And so--and there's certain strains of barley, like there's three-row, six-row,
Vic: Mm-hmm. [laughs]
John: whatever different barleys that they use.
John: But in any case, Irish whiskeys, they had a whole bunch of, like, Mother England,
John: you know what I mean?
John: Like, as an American, you can look back at history and see how the Americans dealt with the British.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Well, yeah, Irish got taxed, like, because the British just said, "You know, we like money."
John: Yeah, you don't say.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Anyway, and so they started taxing malted barley.
John: And so the Irish are like, "Yeah, no worries. Okay.
John: We'll keep it under 30%, and we'll avoid the majority of the tax,
John: so we'll just use unmalted barley.
John: You know, we'll show you," like whatever.
John: And so that became their signature.
John: And so that's how Irish whiskeys have been made ever since.
John: And you can blame the British for that.
John: But I don't mind an Irish whiskey, because that's all good.
John: I don't mind that at all.
John: So another one of the things that's weird about bourbons is the casks have got to be virgin oak,
John: virgin white American oak as well.
Vic: Just logistics. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
John: They don't have to be American oak, but, I mean, honestly, they are,
John: funnily enough, they're made in America, so that makes sense.
John: Yeah, logistically, yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So obviously.
John: When it comes to Scotch whiskeys, getting back to barley,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: there's a whole bunch of different barleys that they use.
John: And there's, like, barleys, there's so many strains, it's ridiculous.
John: The first episode of Whiskey, Whiskey, I talked a little bit about this.
John: I'm going to do more in a future episode.
John: Macallan are famous for using a barley strain called Golden Promise.
John: And they use--okay.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Mash bills are a very closely guarded trade secret.
John: A lot of companies will say, "Oh, yeah, we put in 72% this, 12% that, whatever, whatever."
Vic: Right.
John: Yeah, but they don't tell you the whole truth.
John: It's like, "Well, yeah, we use 70% of, you know, malted barley,
John: but I'm not going to tell you what malted barley,
John: and that 72% might be 20% Golden Promise or 20% some other variety that is common as mud."
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Right. Yeah.
John: But they're not going to tell you that because that's a trade secret.
John: And fair enough, right?
Vic: Well, and these are the things that make a difference in the final output product.
John: It's a business. I understand that.
John: Exactly.
Vic: And if you don't want anybody making your stuff,
Vic: then these are the parts that you've got to keep secret.
John: Golden Promise has a problem for--just about Macallan for a second--
John: is the problem with it is that it's not very high yield.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So it was developed in the '60s, and they used gamma irradiation
John: to develop this particular strain of barley.
John: And anyway, they produced it for a long time, and it was a very high percentage, 60%, 70%,
John: according to legend anyway.
John: I don't know how much of this is true, but that's just what I've read.
John: And those versions of Macallan are what built the Macallan reputation.
John: So the problem, though, is because it was low yield.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So better varieties come out.
John: They've got high yields. It's more economical.
John: They reduce the amount of Golden Promise.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So people say today's Macallans are not as good as the ones from 30 years ago,
John: solely because of this.
John: It's probably other reasons, but in any case.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So the type of grains used, the proportions of grains used all affect--
Vic: Yeah.
John: they are your mash bill, and they will affect how the whiskey will ultimately taste.
John: But it's only the distillate.
John: It's not barrel influence.
John: But okay, we've got to talk about stills now.
Vic: Oh, boy. [laughs]
John: So there's two primary kinds of stills, and I know that there's hybrids,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and I know that there's combinations, and I know that there's different styles within styles.
John: But basically they fall into two categories, a batch style of pot stills,
John: and then you've got a continuous style like a column still.
John: You want to tackle one? Which one do you want to tackle?
Vic: I like the pot stills. [laughs]
John: And I'll tackle the other one.
John: Okay. Go for it.
Vic: Those are kind of near and dear to my heart. [laughs]
Vic: A pot still is basically--
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vic: This is what comes to mind.
Vic: I mean, you could fancy it up, and you can get these that look pretty fancy.
Vic: But when you think the term "moonshine"
Vic: and all the American stereotypes of an overall wearing hillbilly out in the woods
Vic: with this big chunk of copper that's been rolled into kind of like a cylinder,
Vic: and then it tapers to a cone at the top,
Vic: and it comes out of a cap and goes through a curly Q line
Vic: into what's called a doubler,
Vic: and then through another curly Q line into what's called the worm,
Vic: which is basically a condenser coil,
Vic: which is an even more curly Q worm dipped in some ice and some water,
Vic: usually just cold water.
Vic: Ice is a luxury they didn't have in the woods.
Vic: But what you typically think of when you think of moonshine still is a pot still.
Vic: And it's basically--it's essentially just a pot of your mash heated
Vic: so that it evaporates and the steam runs through the series of tubes
Vic: throughout the rest of the distillation process.
John: Yeah. So basically a pot still's problem is that you put your fermented mash in there,
John: you cap it off, you fire it up at the heat, and you can only do a batch at a time.
John: So you'll distill it for a bit, you'll cool down all your condensate,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: which is your alcohol and the other phenols and esters and so on and so forth
John: to create what they'll call the new make.
John: That particular part of it, it's like you've got to stop when you're done,
John: once you've got it all, and then you clean it all out and start again with a fresh batch.
John: So it's batch distillation.
John: Feedstock goes in, you do the process, clean it out, start again.
John: So it's much more labor-intensive in that regard.
John: And then column stills, on the other hand, are different.
John: They can be run continuously, and it's an ingenious design, I have to admit.
John: It was originally pioneered by a Scotsman called Robert Stein,
John: but his design had its issues, and the design was refined by an Irishman called,
John: I think it's pronounced Aeneas Coffee, leading to what's commonly referred to as the coffee still,
John: but not coffee as in the black coffee that you drink as in C-O-F-F-E-E,
John: that's not--no, it's coffee with an E-Y, so C-O-F-F-E-Y.
John: So that's a coffee still named after this Irishman.
John: Now, a lot of the designs that have come from this are all derivatives of his design.
John: So what is it?
John: It's like, first of all, a column still is a vertical column, essentially.
John: It has a series of horizontal plates as you go up the column,
John: and that effectively makes the tower--you can think of it as a series of mini pot stills
John: stacked one on top of the other.
John: I mean, they are, but they aren't, but that's one way to think about it.
Vic: It goes--I think an easy way to explain it without the visual is that like--
John: MASH?
John: Hmm.
Vic: so as it goes up through these series of chambers,
Vic: each one essentially becomes its own distillation process
Vic: so that as you get higher and higher up the stack,
Vic: it's getting more and more purified with each chamber as it goes up that stack.
John: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, actually.
John: Good.
John: That's pretty good.
John: So the MASH actually enters cold, obviously, because it's, well, cold,
John: and the top of the still, and that just sinks to the bottom
John: because, you know, cold things sink and warm things rise,
John: and the bottom's continuously heated, usually through steam injection,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and as the steam rises, it interacts with that falling MASH,
John: and each of those plates, as you said, successively, as you go up the column,
John: the vapors become more and more purified.
John: So I'll put a diagram in the chapter artwork to help explain it.
John: It's not straightforward, but a modern continuous column still
John: was still based on the coffee design.
John: So the trick with these is keeping the feed of the feedstock,
John: what they call the MASH, the feedstock in industrial terms,
John: and you've got to keep pulling out the distillate,
John: and it's very efficient because it never has to turn off.
John: Technically, you just keep supplying it with steam,
John: you keep supplying it with feedstock, and you keep pulling out the distillate.
John: You just keep on rolling, and that's how companies like Jim Beam,
John: Wild Turkey, Jack Daniels, they are able to produce massive quantities
John: because it never has to stop for a clean.
John: It never has to.
Vic: Yeah.
John: Yeah, and the funny thing, though, is people--
Vic: That whole batching process of the pot still really slows things down.
John: with column stills, they tend to produce a lighter whiskey.
John: It obviously depends on the height.
John: I say obviously, but the higher the column is, then theoretically,
John: the more refined it will be, which means that by the time you get to the top,
John: there'll be less and less of the non-alcohol contents in the vapors
John: that condense.
John: So ultimately, you get to a point where you're not carrying over
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: some of the bits that people are like, "Oh, but that's not alcohol.
John: I don't want that."
John: Yeah, but some of it you do because some of that's actually the flavor
John: that goes into the distillate, and you'll lose it if you're not careful.
John: And this is where the art comes into it, I think, a bit.
John: So it's like the design, the shape, the height, all these things affect
John: the quality and the taste of that new make in that distillate
John: that you then eventually will age.
John: So in any case, yeah, all right, enough about stills.
John: There you go.
John: And that will kick up the alcohol content considerably.
John: And with continuous distillation, you can generally push really high ABVs,
John: like up to 95%, which you're not allowed to do for bourbon, for example.
Vic: Yeah.
John: But you can design a column still to not produce that.
John: It's all in the diameter and the height and, of course, how hot you make it.
Vic: Well, you can actually produce it at that eye of a proof.
Vic: You're going to have to temper it down before you bottle it.
Vic: Or actually, I think before you barrel it, maybe.
John: Yeah, I guess that's true.
Vic: Yeah, yeah.
John: Yeah, it can't be barreled at more than 160 proof, I think,
Vic: Right, yeah.
John: is the rules for bourbon.
John: Yeah, yeah.
John: All right.
John: Now, I am still researching first cut and second cut,
John: so I'm leaning on Vic for this one.
Vic: Oh!
John: I know, I haven't got to this--
John: Hey, man, I'm on a journey.
John: I have learned a lot, but I still have a lot to learn.
Vic: All right.
John: So first cut, second cut.
Vic: Well, again, you're going with the fancy terms.
John: Oh, good.
Vic: Fortunately, I do know these fancy terms.
Vic: But they're also known as the heads, tails, and hearts.
John: That's good.
John: Good, good, good.
Vic: Your first cut is the heads.
John: Got it.
John: [AUDIO OUT]
Vic: And this is basically -- this is the first little bit that runs --
Vic: actually, I'd be curious to know how this works in these continuous-running column stills,
Vic: because that's a whole different ballgame.
Vic: But anyway, in a pot still, this is what my knowledge is based around.
Vic: Your first cut is basically the first bit that comes out of your still.
Vic: I wouldn't necessarily call it toxic, but it's a different kind of alcohol,
Vic: primarily what's called methanol.
Vic: And this is the stuff that can -- an alcohol with a really high methanol count can --
Vic: this is the stuff that's going to -- I don't care how immune you think you are to hangovers,
Vic: this is the stuff that's going to kick your ass.
John: [ Laughter ]
Vic: It just -- it affects our bodies differently.
John: [ Silence ] ------------------------------fd0fd6fcd2f--
Vic: We process it differently.
Vic: We break it down differently.
Vic: So basically you want to let that run.
Vic: And it's basically -- it does go into the flavor profile.
Vic: So it's not an exact science.
Vic: You can't say roughly exactly, you know, the first 15% has just got to get tossed.
Vic: But essentially it's a percentage by volume of, you know, however much your mash is.
Vic: And then there's some variance on that percentage just based on the flavor profile of your mash
Vic: and based on the flavor profile you want in the output.
Vic: But essentially you're going to take that first,
Vic: and that first cut is after you're relatively confident that all of the methanol
Vic: and stuff like that that we don't really want to drink has came through the still
Vic: because they evaporate out of the mash at a much lower temp.
Vic: So they come out first just by nature, just by the process.
Vic: And then after that, when you're pretty confident that all of that stuff has run out,
Vic: you take that stuff, and it's also called cast off because you literally just cast it off.
Vic: You dump it.
Vic: If you're in the woods, you just chuck it off to the side.
Vic: I'm sure in the industrial they have something they have to do with it to properly dispose of it.
Vic: I don't think they can just dump it in the drain.
Vic: But you basically -- it's called the heads, and you just get rid of it.
Vic: You don't really use it for much of anything.
Vic: And then you get into what they call the hearts, which is in the middle of the run.
Vic: And this is where the primary bulk of your alcohol content is going to come from
Vic: in your final output is in the hearts.
Vic: And then as you start to get toward the end of the run,
Vic: then it's coming out of the still a little less pure alcohol,
Vic: a little more of the mash that went in, and not literally the grains and stuff,
Vic: but it's just the alcohol content is getting lower,
Vic: and you're starting to get more flavor profile from the ingredients that first went into the mash.
Vic: And you want some of that in there because it's definitely going to affect your final product.
Vic: But the more of it that you let in, the lower your proof in your alcohol.
Vic: And if you go too far, then you can just really make it taste bad
Vic: because once you start getting to a certain point, then you start getting to --
Vic: like in the case of a pot still, if you haven't very carefully regulated your heat,
Vic: all those grains and stuff have settled into the bottom of the pot,
Vic: and they're literally scorching down there,
Vic: so you can start introducing some nasty flavor side effects from that as well.
Vic: So then you make your second cut, which is called the tails.
Vic: And basically all of that is going to be discarded as well,
Vic: but it is actually reusable to an extent,
Vic: and a lot of whiskeys and manufacturers do do this.
Vic: But essentially you want to stop harvesting that into your run.
Vic: So then you've got your first cut with your heads, you've discarded that,
Vic: you've got a bunch of the hearts, and you've got some of the tails but not all the tails.
Vic: And then you take this and you mix it all together,
Vic: and you create the flavor profile that you want,
Vic: and then you start moving it to go barrel it and age it or whatever,
Vic: or if you're just drinking moonshine, then you've got moonshine ready to bottle up and sell.
Vic: Side note, I don't know what the technical term is for the stuff that comes out of the still.
Vic: I don't care what it is, what you're making, I just call it moonshine because that's all I know.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: And I'm sure you could probably educate me on that in a minute.
Vic: New make.
Vic: That's a good term. Okay.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Yep.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Yep.
Vic: Okay, wait, I have one last thing to add.
Vic: So those tails, I mentioned you could save them and they have some reuse purposes.
Vic: A lot of companies do this, and this is kind of like what you were talking about with the coloring stuff.
Vic: It's about consistency of product from batch to batch.
Vic: You can take those remaining tails, and a lot of people will use it to kickstart their next mash batch.
Vic: So it can kickstart that, and it can also help with the consistency from run to run,
Vic: making sure that, you know, your stuff comes out relatively the same.
Vic: At least in the moonshine and bourbon worlds.
Vic: I don't know if it's a factor in the others.
Vic: Right.
Vic: No, they just call it whiskey. [laughs]
Vic: Right. Right.
Vic: All bourbons are whiskey, but all whiskeys aren't bourbon.
Vic: Yes.
Vic: Hmm.
Vic: Right.
Vic: Hmm.
Vic: That's interesting. I didn't know that.
Vic: Now, I have a question.
Vic: You may or may not be able to answer this.
Vic: So, much like what you just said with scotch, part of the thing about bourbon,
Vic: and a lot of this is just technical legality and tradition,
Vic: but to sell a whiskey in the U.S. and call it a bourbon, it has to have been made here.
Vic: But there are people recreating the bourbon process all over the world
Vic: and selling it all over the world and call it bourbon,
Vic: even though we in the States would consider that a blasphemous abomination,
Vic: and it's not bourbon. It's just whiskey. [laughs]
Vic: Is that happening with scotch and Irish-type whiskeys and stuff as well?
Vic: Okay.
Vic: Hmm.
Vic: Right.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Right.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Nice.
Vic: Right.
Vic: The scotch whiskey mob. [laughs]
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: There can be only one.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Some of 'em.
Vic: Like one in three, I think.
Vic: The TV show was pretty good, too, after you get into the second season on.
John: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Anyway, I digress. The next one is
Vic: Hmm.
John: Speyside, and Speyside is characterized by the River Spey, which winds
John: its way through that part of the country. So, Speyside is bordering on
John: highlands and is adjacent to lowlands, unsurprisingly. There's a
John: bizarre little area, it's very small, called Campbelltown,
John: and that is, it used to be the largest whiskey producing
John: city in the world. Not anymore, definitely not anymore, but
Vic: Hmm.
John: you know, Campbelltown got its own little area. Then you've got the Island of Islay,
John: which is spelt I-S-L-A-Y, but pronounced Islay,
John: and it's one island. It's not a huge island, but it's got a lot of distilleries on it and a very unique
John: set of flavors to it. And then the unofficial area is generally
John: considered part of Highlands, according to doctrine, but everyone else in the world has said, you know what, the
John: islands, which are to the north and, well, surrounding the
John: Highlands area off the coast, they should be their own area. And the islands have got,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: [click]
John: you know, like other famous distilleries, I think Talisker, for example, is one of them. There's a whole bunch
John: of these famous distilleries that are on islands. They're not Islay, they're not Highlands,
John: so they've got a different area. So, all these different areas have different characteristics
John: supposedly, but what I've learned as well is that
John: Brook Lardy, for example, Episode 5 of Brook Lardy's Whiskey Whiskey, that's coming out in a couple
John: of days. By the time this goes up, it'll probably will have gone out. And Brook Lardy,
Vic: Hmm.
John: if you're an Islay whiskey distillery, and they are on Islay, you're supposed
John: to produce a peated whiskey that's slightly salty. It's like,
John: that's just the characteristic of an Islay whiskey. Well, one of my favorite
John: whiskeys is the Classic Laddy. And the Classic Laddy is not peated, it's not salty,
John: it's 50% ABV. That thing packs a punch and it is just
Vic: Hmm.
John: delightful. And it breaks all the rules of an
Vic: Yeah.
John: Islay whiskey. So, you can't just say, when I'm thinking of Islay, I think of whiskeys like this. Well, that might
John: be true on average, but it's not a hard and fast rule. So, I do find the whole idea of
John: having areas to be a bit ridiculous. Australia's got the same problem, and so
John: is America. Like, you'll have a whiskey, like an American single malt whiskey that's
John: made in Texas. So, like a Texan whiskey has got a certain reputation
John: because of the higher temperatures, temperature swings, and so on, and maturation times. It's got a very
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: different, to somewhere that's, somewhere from Kentucky, right? So,
Vic: Right.
John: anyway. So, that's Scotch, Scottish regions. I really find the whole thing
John: to be a distraction. I don't think that it helps really too much anymore, because I think that
John: in the bad old days, it used to matter more, because you had to move product around, you'd grow the barley
John: locally, you'd harvest the peat locally when you're doing a peated whiskey. None of that is true anymore,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: or very little of it is. So, it doesn't matter as much. Anyway, so that's Scotch
John: regions. Now, I don't have too much else to add on regions, but just quickly on
John: other characteristics, like for example, they will do double-stilled
John: predominantly in Scotland. If you go to Ireland, though, Irish whiskey is
John: typically triple-distilled, and I covered this on episode 2, when I talked about the Bushmills 16.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: And, of course, we already covered the whole malt, and they have more grains. They can't
John: have more than 30% malt, which means you've got to, therefore, by definition, have 70%
John: of unmalted grain, and that leads to a lighter whiskey,
John: which I don't mind. But anyway, so, alright, got to talk about
Vic: Uh, not a whole lot.
John: the different kinds of single malt, single grain, and all that stuff.
John: So, how much of this had you come across before? I'm just curious.
Vic: A lot of this stuff, you're getting into the distinctions that make things a lot more expensive.
John: No.
Vic: [laughs] A little out of my class range.
John: Mm-hmm. Okay. So,
Vic: [laughs] Yeah.
John: single malt means that... So, single malt, single grain.
Vic: Yeah.
John: Single does not mean literally single, and this is what annoyed me for a long
John: time. So, single grain, we'll start with that. It is a
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: grain whiskey. That is to say, it is essentially unmalted,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and it is a grain of any other description, right? So, you'll have,
John: like, it could be wheat, it could be rye, it could be, you know, whatever, but it's a single grain. It does not
John: mean one grain. You can have four different grains in your mash bill. No problem.
John: But it has to come from a single distillery. So, single grain doesn't mean single
John: grain. Single grain means one distillery. That's it. So, single malt,
Vic: Mm.
Vic: With malt. Yeah.
John: exactly the same thing, but it's got malted barley in it. Yeah, with malted barley,
Vic: Right.
John: but it's a single distillery. So, when it says single malt, it does not mean only one kind
John: of barley. No. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means one distillery.
Vic: Mm.
John: All right. So, a blended malt is when you get a whole bunch of
John: single malts from different distilleries and you blend them together. So, there's no grain component.
John: It is just a blended malt. So, for example, Johnny Walker Green is an example
Vic: Mm.
John: of a blended malt. So, is Naked Grouse, or as they've been renamed in
John: Australia, Naked Malt, because no one knew what a hell a grouse was. I actually
Vic: 'Kay.
John: have no idea why they renamed it. They just did. Don't look at me. Anyway. Yeah.
Vic: Mm.
John: Then you've got a blended grain, which is the same idea, but your single grains from multiple distilleries are
John: blended together to create a blended grain. And then finally, you have blended.
John: And blended is basically a free-for-all. It could be malt. It could be grain.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: It's typically when they blend it after the barreling, right?
John: From anywhere you like. It's like, "Oh, I'll have a bit of this. A bit of this."
John: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Of course. So, what happens is they'll say, "Well, I want
Vic: Yeah.
John: 20 barrels of this age from Carl Ehler, and I'll get
John: another bunch here from, I don't know, maybe not
John: Carl Ehler, but whatever, Glenn Farkless or something. And I'm going to chuck them all in a big vat, blend them together until they
John: taste good. And then I'm going to bottle that stuff and sell it. And that is a blended whiskey.
Vic: That...that blending is an art form all in itself.
John: Oh, yeah.
Vic: I mean, you can have really good blended stuff, and you can have [censored]
Vic: [laughs]
John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And my hat is off to these
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: people that are, what they call them, the master blender. If you
John: look at what they have to do, like, I have struggled so much
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: trying to extract different flavors, different tastes.
John: I'm getting better, but my God, these people have got such
John: a refined sense of smell and a refined palate that they can take
John: dozens and dozens of different single malts and single grain whiskeys, chuck them in a
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: vat in the right proportions and come out with a consistent flavor profile year after
John: year after year. So right now, if I pick up my bottle of Chivas Regal 12,
John: like, this whiskey was bottled in May
John: of 2024. But if you were to taste this from three years ago, that bottling
John: and this bottling, I would put money on it. They would taste almost identical.
Vic: Mm.
John: And the reason, and they'd be the same color as well. And it's because the master
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: blenders really know what they're doing. And so when they create these blends,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: they need to be consistent. They market it. So a Chivas 12 today is going to
John: taste the same as a Chivas 12 in 10 years because they're building this brand.
John: The flavor is the brand. And same with Johnny Walker. It's no different because
John: Johnny Walker's all blended. Just different kinds. So red, black, double black,
John: green, going all the way through the colors of the rainbow till you get to Johnny Walker Blue,
Vic: [laughs] Yeah.
John: which everyone likes to have on their shelf to say, "Hey, I've got Johnny Walker Blue." But it's actually
John: really not that good. So I'm told. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm assured
Vic: Mm.
John: that it's not the best. It's not worth the money. But still, it looks nice.
John: Johnny Walker Blue. Whatever. Anyway, yes. So blended
Vic: Right.
John: whiskeys. So of course, to be called a blended scotch, all of the blends, all the things you're
John: blending together must also be from Scotland. There you go.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Age statements. Real quickly. So again, Chivas Regal 12 means that
John: the youngest whiskey in this bottle must be 12 years old. Pretty simple.
John: So it means that this is at least 12 years old. There could be stuff that's 50 years old in here. Can't
John: imagine why, but there could be. You never know. Right.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Now, we talked about malted and unmalted barley. All right. We've got to circle back and finish off the story with
Vic: Just for the record, you could have malted and unmalted just about anything.
John: truth. Yeah, absolutely right. Yes.
Vic: They also malt corn and stuff like that too a lot.
Vic: Most people think of it in terms of barley.
John: Yeah, exactly.
Vic: That's what comes to mind, but malted versus unmalted just means
Vic: whether or not you let it sprout a little bit before you chucked it into the mash
John: Exactly. And that's another thing that confused me as well early on, Vic, to be honest, because I'm like,
Vic: and grounded it up.
John: they mean like malt as in like a malt milkshake. And it's like,
Vic: Yeah, well, the first thing that always came to my mind before I got educated on it
John: well.
John: Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Vic: was, "Is this like Whoppers?" [laughs]
Vic: "Malted milk balls?" [laughs]
John: You can get them, but they're all imported.
Vic: I don't know if you have those candies in Australia or not, but--
Vic: [laughs]
John: But I know exactly what you mean. I have had them. But yes.
Vic: That's a different kind of malt. [laughs]
John: Very different kind of malt. Yes. Okay.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So I've got to circle back to wrap this up, which is barrel aging.
John: And one of the things that I've learned about oak, and I am learning more about oak all the time, is really,
John: really fascinating. Oak is an incredible wood for holding liquids,
Vic: Mm-hmm. It's very dense.
John: because one of its characteristics is that it is in some,
John: within limits, it is self-sealing.
John: And yes, but like all woods, it also breathes.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So it's kind of like the perfect, it's the perfect wood.
Vic: That's the good stuff.
John: Now there are different oak types around the world, but white American
John: oak is one of the most popular.
John: It is the good stuff. The thing that's interesting is that
Vic: Yeah.
John: back in the day, I was reading up on this one with bourbon, is that they mandated
John: that bourbon had to be aged, I think it's for a minimum of two years
John: in virgin white oak, is that right? Yeah. So you can't...
Vic: Most people want four years or more, but at a minimum two.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: But it has to start in virgin oak. So in other words, it's never been used
John: to age anything before. Fresh barrel, fresh wood, when I say fresh wood in air quotes,
Vic: Right.
John: I mean it's not fresh, because when they cut the tree and they turn it into planks,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and they turn those into staves, and then those staves are put into a barrel, they have to wait for
John: things like the sap needs to bleed out of it, it needs to be dried, and there's a whole
Vic: It's fresh in the sense that ain't nothing been aged in it before.
John: bunch of prep before it's used. But the first liquid...
John: Yes, exactly right. So that's what they mean when I say virgin.
Vic: [laughs]
John: It has nothing to do with whether or not that oak tree has born children. Moving on.
John: Yes.
Vic: Oh, boy, I didn't know we were going to talk about immaculate tree conception today.
John: Immaculate tree conception. No, this is barrel conception.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Oh, boy.
John: The little baby barrel, when the mummy and daddy barrel love each other very much.
John: Oh my God. Okay. Moving on. I never thought that, just for the record. Now, the thing that's
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: Mm.
John: interesting with Scotch whiskey, certain oak barrels generally
John: are not virgin barrels, and it has to be aged for at least three years.
John: So, generally, what I'm learning is... Okay, I'll keep going just briefly. Irish whiskey
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: got to be at least three years aged, matured, whatever you want to call it, and Australian whiskey
John: at least two years. Now, the thing that's interesting is it's...
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: What drives this is the climate and thermal cycling. So, with a bourbon
John: in Kentucky, you have enough thermal cycling in Kentucky to ensure
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: in the Rick House and all that, that you're going to get decent
John: aging because of thermal cycling within two years. Now,
John: Scotland and Ireland, they have a far more temperate, cooler climate, so you're not
Vic: Yeah.
John: going to get those temperature variations anywhere as much as you're going to get in Kentucky,
John: and certainly not as many as you're going to get in Australia. And the reason it does this,
John: which I didn't realize initially when I researched it, is because
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: as the temperature increases, then obviously the volume
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: inside, the liquid will actually expand with temperature,
John: and that increases the pressure on the actual oak barrel itself.
Vic: And the wood expands and contracts, too.
John: And then the reverse happens because it's sealed. That's
John: exactly right. And it will absorb moisture, and if
Vic: Yeah.
John: you're right next to the ocean, it'll absorb some of that saltiness also from the sea spray from that.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: It'll absorb that in as well. So, you get this process where,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and that's what the aging is, is that it's actually the liquid going into the wood
John: and back out of the wood again, in and out, in and out, over a long period of time, and that leaches
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: the flavors from the wood into the whiskey. And that's what,
John: and there are estimates out there that based on the kind of
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and age of the barrel, like if it's a virgin oak barrel, or
John: if it's a first fill, second fill, third fill, whatever, before it reaches
John: too far down the road and it's effectively, then they call it a dead cask, it's got no more life to give.
John: You can get up to 70% of the flavor in that whiskey is barrel
John: influence. It's incredible how much the barrel influences it.
Vic: Yeah.
John: And there's a problematic part of this too. Like with bourbon, one of the
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: flavor profiles from bourbon is it can have quite a sharp,
John: spicy angle to it. And a lot
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: of that is the wood influence, because the virgin oak, all of that
Vic: Yeah.
John: oakiness and that flavor from the wood, it can overpower your palate.
John: Like when you try that, it can burn. It's like, when I first had
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: understood the difference between, it's like there's a spicy burn that comes from the wood
John: and there's a spicy burn that comes from the alcohol. And they're two very different things
Vic: Yep.
John: and it's easy to get them confused. And I struggled with that early on.
John: So you've got to be careful with the virgin oak casks. You can't age them for a massive
John: amount of time, because you're just going to soak out so much. The law of diminishing returns,
Vic: Yeah.
John: you're not going to get much more flavor, sure, but it's not just that, you're also going to leach out so much of that
John: woodiness, it's going to make it undrinkable. So there's a balance to be had there, which is
Vic: Very much true.
John: something I didn't originally appreciate. Charring.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Char that brisket. Anyway.
Vic: Before we move into that, this is also a big part of where your cost comes into, these bottles that we love so much.
John: Yeah.
Vic: It's from the logistics of the barrels and the barrel aging.
Vic: You know, there's only, like, a still you can essentially crank unlimited product out of.
Vic: But before you get to this final product, it has to go into a barrel, and it has to sit somewhere for a predetermined amount of time.
Vic: And there's only so many barrels. There's only so much space to do this.
Vic: So it's kind of a literal bottleneck in the process.
Vic: [laughs]
Vic: And so this is why, you know, your 2-year, your 4-year, your 8-year, your 12-year, your 16-years, and stuff like that.
Vic: This is why there's so much increased value in those, because there's a lot of costs that went into just simply allowing that aging process
Vic: and the logistics of it.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: Yeah. No, absolutely right. Absolutely. So it's handling all the barrels and
John: I mean, the other thing about the barrels I was about to talk about is charring and then toasting, but
John: it's like I, the first time I heard like someone say, oh yeah, it's got to be
John: from charred virgin white American oak. And I'm like, you just built a barrel
John: and now you're going to burn it. Why?
Vic: Flavor notes, John, flavor notes. [laughs]
John: But yeah, but it's not just flavor. That's the
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: interesting thing is that charring isn't all about flavor. Charring is
John: also about charcoal. Like, so when you char wood,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: you create charcoal. Just, it's a thing, right? So, and charcoal
Vic: Mm-hmm, yeah.
John: is something that, I mean, I think most people are aware of the concept of a charcoal filter.
John: Yeah. And some people use it as a very crude form of water
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Yep.
John: purification in an emergency. You get a whole bunch of charcoal put in a sock and you know the trick, right? Where you put the water
John: through and yeah. So some people are,
Vic: You also get some of that same effect in a charred barrel.
John: that's exactly right. And that's one of the reasons that they do it is for that as well.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: And it's like, what you get is as the whiskey is essentially cycled
John: through the surface layers of the wood on the inside contact surface through that temperature cycling,
John: it also passes through the charcoal and the charring and that acts
John: as a filter. So what you end up getting is you get this filtering
John: of different compounds that are undesirable out of the whiskey and the charring
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: is required for that. And the problem with that is that it's not about
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: how many times it goes in and out with temperature cycles. It is purely time. So you can't
John: accelerate that with thermal cycling. That's one of the problems. Now toasting is a different
John: thing again. Toasting is, I think has, and this is a part I'm still learning about,
John: but my understanding is that toasting will go to a deeper depth than
John: charring. Charring is just surface. Whereas toasting will go down several
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: millimeters down into the wood from all sides. And
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: I'm trying to remember the reason I like to do it. It slipped my mind for the moment, but just simply
John: to say you would buy, let's say you had a used barrel,
John: second, third fill barrel. You might scrape the inside of it and rechar
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: it and toast it. Well, you toast it first, then you char it. So when you buy your barrel,
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: let's say your McAllen and you're going to buy a whole bunch of sherry, Oloroso sherry
John: casks from Jerez in Spain to age all of your really super expensive
Vic: Yeah.
John: whiskey. Well, what you're going to do is probably order a toast on it, have a medium toast on it
John: and then you're going to char it. And it's like, that is what they do to get the flavor profile that they're looking
John: for. And it works. It's fascinating.
Vic: Yeah, and I think that toasting is technically, well, it is a much deeper burn, but I don't think it's as intensive a burn.
John: Yeah.
Vic: Like, the charring is going to come out to look like charcoal from your grill.
Vic: The toasting is just going to look like toasted wood.
John: Yes. And there's two different purposes for doing it. Right. So I'm pretty sure
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: It is, yeah.
John: that toasting is more about flavor than it is about. Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: So all of this is to say we've been talking about this now for over an hour, probably
Vic: Yep.
John: an hour and 10, hour and 15 specifically about whiskey. And we've barely scratched the surface.
Vic: Right.
John: Like there is so much to this. Oh my God. There is so much to this. It's not funny.
Vic: If you'll indulge a slightly nerdy digression here for just a moment related to the barrel aging,
John: Go for it.
Vic: you can -- let me state first of all, none of these reputable companies that we're talking about is going to be doing this.
John: Hmm.
Vic: But you can accelerate this aging process.
Vic: There are techniques to do it.
Vic: There are people that can -- like, you'll encounter this a lot in the moonshine industry, because a lot of these people --
Vic: like, I say industry loosely.
Vic: I'm talking, you know, your true backwoods industry.
Vic: But they also want to sell a whiskey product in addition to just their moonshine.
Vic: And there's a couple of ways you can accelerate this project.
Vic: The first thing that comes to mind is you can jar it or bucket it, and you can put chunks of wood into it.
Vic: And then you can, like -- and this is a pretty labor-intensive process.
Vic: This is the really -- you're really working for it process.
Vic: You can move it in and out of deep freezers periodically.
John: Wow.
Vic: Let it come to ambient temperature, and then move it back into the freezer.
Vic: And that is probably the closest simulation to the natural aging you're going to get.
John: Right.
Vic: If you want to go more the lazy route but still accelerate the aging process, you can simply rock your barrels or periodically roll your barrels.
John: Mm hmm.
Vic: Like, there's cases where people just take a few barrels, and they'll simply put it on a boat that's going out to sea for fishing or whatever for a few months.
Vic: And the rocking of the sea will drastically accelerate this process.
Vic: Because basically what you're doing is you're -- like, even if you're doing the bucket deep freezer method or you're doing the rocking your barrels method,
Vic: you're accelerating the process of pushing and pulling the liquid in and out of the wood.
John: Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. So by agitating it, you're
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: accelerating it. Yeah. Fascinating. Cool. All righty. Well
Vic: Yeah. Yeah.
John: I guess we should probably wrap up at some point. But
John: because we've barely scratched the surface. I mean there is right.
Vic: But there's so much more.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
Vic: Yeah.
John: There is. So what I'm what I'm trying to do with whiskey whiskey
Vic: It's a fascinating craft.
John: it really is and it is a craft and this is what I've come to appreciate. And there's so many
John: things that I've learned in the last three months alone that I never realized.
John: I've done episode and every episode of whiskey whiskey that I do I try
John: and explore one other aspect of it. And there's so many aspects of it it's going to keep me going for a long
John: time probably. And some of the ones we've covered on this episode some of them we haven't
John: yet. I haven't yet in whiskey whiskey. So for example in terms of different ones I've
John: I've I've reviewed obviously I've reviewed the ones that I have at hand which
John: I've got the McCallum 12 12 year Sherry Oak Bushmills 16 year
John: Irish whiskey the Lark Symphony number one which is an Australian whiskey
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: I'll talk a little bit about Australian whiskey in a minute actually. I've also talked about I've also covered the
John: Chivas Regal 12 Chivas Regal 18 blended Scotches
John: and I've also reviewed Jamison's original and I
John: also did Brook Lattie the classic Lattie. In terms of ones I haven't recorded
John: yet but I've done the notes for I just need time to record them is
John: the Glen Flitick a Glen Flitick 12 year so I'm going to have another crack at that one
John: but this time knowing what I'm doing. Then I've got a Tom and Tal 10 year
John: and 16 year single malt Scotch. That should be interesting I've never tried them before.
John: I'm actually going to do a review of my Kentucky Spirit Wild Turkey because I can't have a show
John: called Whiskey Whiskey and not review Bourbons as well because I'm going to do that and when I
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: restock my 101 I'll do a proper review of that too.
Vic: Speaking of wild turkey, I know we talked about this one in the past, but I can't remember if you said you ever got around to trying it or not.
John: Mmm.
John: Yes I did
Vic: Did you ever get your hands on a bottle of Long Branch?
Vic: That's good stuff.
John: and yes I did. It is good stuff it is very nice. The only regret
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: that I have looking back is I never tried it neat but yeah it was still a very
Vic: Mm.
John: nice bourbon for sure.
Vic: Made by wild turkey. That's why it comes to mind there.
John: Yeah the only one I haven't one of the ones I haven't tried is that
Vic: Yeah.
John: Pappy Van Winkle so that's not I haven't done that.
Vic: Oh, that's expensive.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: That's why I haven't tried it. Anyway in terms of other future episodes I want to do
John: I want to do one of Bushmills original red and black doing
Vic: Hmm.
John: them as sort of a comparative and after this the only other
John: one I've got after that currently I just need to record it is Loch Lomond
John: and I've got an original 12 and 18 year and I want to compare and contrast those.
Vic: Nice.
John: So what I've been doing is I've been searching for these tasting packs you know
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and where I can find a tasting pack then I'll do them as a comparative
John: because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to I guess bust that myth that non age
John: statement and 12 year 18 year 25 year like going up in years is not necessarily an
Vic: Yeah.
John: increase in quality it's definitely an increase in price but there's not because I mean
John: that the shivers 12 and 18 I guess you have to watch the episode episode 4 to figure out what I thought
John: but it's 2 and a half to 3 times the price between the two
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: so the real question that I'm trying to answer for myself and for anyone else that's interested
John: is you know if I have like 150 dollars to put down or
John: 140 dollars which is the recommended retail on shivers 18 should I do that or should I get
John: two or nearly three bottles of shivers 12 and I'm like well yeah it's is it really worth it
Vic: Right.
John: and you know well that's the question so I because I just I came
John: into this Vic and it's like people were buying well whiskey for a thousand dollars a bottle and I'm like
John: wow okay and I tried a thousand dollar bottle of whiskey I tried to try to you know 30
John: mil standard and honestly it was beautiful but
John: it's not a thousand dollars beautiful so I'm just trying to answer this it's
Vic: That's a lot of money.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: so much money for a 700 mil bottle that's insane so and
Vic: That's a lot of money for something that's gonna taste good for a moment and then work your kidneys and your liver overtime for a few moments and then it's gonna go down the drain.
John: in US
John: yeah pretty much that's pretty much right exactly
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: so I'm trying to figure out what's the sweet spot you know I'm learning my own
Vic: Yeah.
John: palate learning what's like does it really matter if it's an
John: Australian whiskey if it's an Irish whiskey if it's an American you know single malt or an American
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: bourbon does it really matter and in Scotch like do I really
John: like pitted whiskeys Highland pitted Islay pitted different because they're different pates
John: you know because some whiskey's got a medicinal taste to them I've already decided that I don't
Vic: Yeah.
John: like that so it's like it's learning my own palate so what I'm trying to do with whiskey is it's my
John: personal journey as I'm trying to understand what do I like what don't I like what's good
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: value and what isn't so it's it's going to take a while and I'm going to be
John: drinking a lot of whiskey's along the way it's going to take me years to reach any reasonable
Vic: Yes.
John: conclusions but that's okay because it is enjoyable
Vic: It's a fun journey.
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: it is and the key thing here is I don't
John: I don't drink this stuff to get wasted if I wanted to get wasted I wouldn't be spending
Vic: That's good.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: I wouldn't be spending a hundred dollars on a bottle
Vic: That's when you reach for that $17 bottle of Jimmy.
John: I wouldn't be spending a hundred dollars on a bottle yes something like that
John: exactly it's like but if that's what I wanted to do and it's not then you know I want to
John: enjoy what I'm sipping I don't want to I'm not on for that to get wasted
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and to get wasted on scotch is a waste and even a decent bourbon
Vic: Yeah.
John: like Wild Turkey 101 it's not something you want to get wasted on it just enjoy it anyway
Vic: Right.
John: so but with the Australian whiskey scene and then we got to wrap it up I think so in Australia
John: back in 1992 or 1994 one or the other there was an
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: enterprising guy Mr. Lark I think his name was Lark
John: whatever he created Lark Distilleries I don't have notes in front of me for his name but
John: he had he's in Tasmania now I'll forgive you if you don't remember
Vic: Yeah.
John: much about Australian geography but Tasmania is the small island state off the southern tip
John: of the country of the mainland and it's got a very
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: cool climate it's more analogous to Scotland not quite that cold
John: but there are parts of Tasmania up in the highlands high country in the middle of Tasmania
John: that does get quite very much like that anyway so he created Lark Distillery
Vic: Mm.
John: he had to turn over a government rule that had been in place since like for
John: a hundred years before that that stated that you could not have your own
John: private distilleries it was illegal they wouldn't license it they wouldn't let you do it it was just
John: against the law so he had them amend the law to let him
John: build a distillery so he built the first Australian
John: distillery of the modern era we did have whiskey distilleries
Vic: It's wild to me that that took so long.
John: I know there were two distilleries in Australia
John: that were creating whiskeys but they were terrible and they were running since like
John: 1950 to 1980 and they only existed
John: producing blended scotches that were reportedly terrible because the Australian
John: government had placed tariffs on the import of scotch whiskey so the only way
Vic: Mm.
John: you could get a whiskey in Australia was to buy from these two otherwise you're paying an absolute
John: fortune to get something from Scotland so that was really really annoying and so he had that
John: so when they lifted the tariffs in the 80s those two companies promptly went out of business because their product was
John: terrible and no one bought it because you could buy the real deal that was far better
John: for less so why the hell would you buy this locally made rubbish so they went out of business and then there was a void
John: in the market it was all imports for about a decade until Lark came along
John: so when Lark came along and they demonstrated that we can make amazing whiskey
John: in Australia and it's like a lot of people sort of like shook
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: their head and like nah this is never going to work and now there's like 50, 70, 100
John: distilleries in various stages like 50 of them are open
John: operating with cellar doors they'll sell you whiskey right now and some of it is
John: really good but most of it is non-age statement simply because
Vic: Mm.
John: it's only been an industry in Australia for 30 years now so in order to have a 25
Vic: Right.
John: year aged Scotch, sorry 20 year
John: aged whiskey you would have had to have had it bottled in the first few years of the
John: distillery and not touched it for 20 years and there just aren't enough barrels
Vic: Yep.
John: with that and the other problem with Australian whiskey is that the early whiskey
John: pioneers in the last 30 years we had problems negotiating
John: because we had no money so we couldn't negotiate with the sweeter
John: casks so things like your Oloroso Sherries and your
John: PX Sherries and you know musket finished, musket for finishing
John: it's like we couldn't get access to the barrels there just weren't enough of them in Australia because we didn't have
Vic: Mm.
John: very many sweet fortified wines grown in Australia what we have to call
John: Aperol because of the trade name with Port and with Sherry you can't
John: call it that so anyway it's kind of like America with bourbon right so we can't call it bourbon either
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: Oh, you want to talk about snobbery, man, get into the wine world.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
Vic: They make the things we've talked about here so far look like friendly conversation.
John: oh yeah I know right yeah
John: mmhmm, mmhmm, it's like
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: what part of France are you from? Oh that's not really Champagne man
Vic: You're right.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: it's gotta be from the Champagne region or it's not Champagne, oh my god
John: anyway alright so we had to age a lot of our early stuff in what we had and we had
John: lots of you know wines like Cabernet Sauvignon
John: you know oh god I'm struggling for wine
John: varieties right now Shiraz, Pinot Noir
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: you know like all these different wines we had to use their casks
John: because that's all we had to age in and so they didn't have the same flavour notes
Vic: Yep.
John: you would get and so we started picking up a lot of good deals on
John: you know because America produces so much bourbon there's so many barrels that they can't use
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: in bourbon because they're no longer a virgin oak so they've got to sell them so they've got a massive
Vic: Right.
John: amount, a massive supply so we picked up a whole bunch of that so then we started seeing lots of bourbon
John: aged barrels, bourbon aged whiskeys but as
Vic: Nice.
John: everything has evolved we've got import agreements now with Spain and
John: there's more and more Australian whiskeys being matured in Oloroso
John: Sherry or PX Sherry casks for example the two most popular ones for whiskeys
John: as well as bourbon so and that's good because it means that
Vic: Mm.
John: we can then meet some of those flavour notes that other international whiskeys can
John: also hit so I mean honestly it's an exciting time in Australia because
John: a lot of these distilleries are opening up possibilities there's this one distillery in Byron Bay
John: which is not too far from me called the Highwaymen and one of theirs they
Vic: Mm.
Vic: Nice name.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: did a special, I know right, I know, they're famous insofar
John: as they released a whiskey that had been matured incrementally
John: across I think it was seven different types of barrels
Vic: Mm.
John: so these are not just seven barrels, these are seven completely different finished barrels
John: so like they had Oloroso Sherry, they had like two
John: different kinds of red wines, they had like a musket, they had all these different
John: the combination was insane and the end result
Vic: And they just cycle it through all the barrels?
John: yes, so they did a mixture of parallel
Vic: Nice.
John: they had a mixture of parallel and then they blended as well as subsequent casks
John: so they do like half the batch in this barrel, half the batch in a different barrel then they'd mix them together
John: for the third barrel kind of a deal so you do the mix and split
John: mix and split sort of thing
Vic: I'll bet you get some really interesting flavor profiles that way, though.
John: it was highly acclaimed because it was such an unusual whiskey because the flavour profile
John: was, it was actually really good but it was so complex
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: it was described by one of the reviewers as being the most complex
John: journey for a whiskey ever but
John: it's like, so you've got these people that are pioneering stuff that others are just not trying and
John: that's great but you also pay for the privilege, we don't have economies of scale so
John: like a 500ml bottle of Lark Symphony No. 1 which is considered to be a very good drop
John: it costs more than a 12 year Macallan
John: Sherry Oak and it costs more than an equivalent volume than the double cask
John: so it's something like, if you take the entry level Macallan which is a 12 year
John: double cask, you're looking at, I think it's an extra
John: $75 to get the same volume of Lark Symphony No. 1
Vic: Mm.
John: and that's non-age statement so you look at that and you're like, okay
John: so you're paying a lot more for a non-age statement that it does taste probably
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: a little bit better than the Macallan but it's not
John: that much more so I don't know
John: and the other problem is with all this Vic is that taste is subjective, like I like licorice
Vic: Yes.
Vic: No.
John: you don't like licorice, you know what I mean? It's like, no
John: and it's like, okay, so I like, you know, Piedro Zemenez
John: or what they just call PX Sherry casks, I like that finish
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: I like that more than I like Oloroso and it's like, I've learnt that just in the last few weeks
John: I was like, okay, great, but it's like, you may be the other way around, in fact you may not like anything
John: that's Sherry finished, you might just say, no, I like my stuff finished in
John: ex-Bourbon casks, I'm a Bourbon man, I mean, like whatever, it's like, our tastes are individualistic
John: they are subjective, so it's about learning
John: what you like and then investing in stuff that you enjoy
John: and you just, and just enjoying what you
John: enjoy and this is one of those things that I've learnt and where I went wrong going way
John: back to the Lavalin 16 year is that was a pitted whiskey and I haven't found a
Vic: Mm.
John: pitted whiskey that I can enjoy yet, I tried a Talisker 10
Vic: Just not something you care for.
John: and it was just, no, it's not, it's like breathing out smoke
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: and it's not like I'm vaping and I'm not smoking a cigarette, but
Vic: Yeah.
John: pitted whiskey quite literally, when you drink it, well first of all, when you nose it
John: you smell it, it's like there is a really strong smokiness and it's not like a bushfire smoke
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: it's not like a forest fire smoke, it's not even like a campfire smoke, it's a very unusual
John: different kind of a smokiness and so you smell that and then you drink it and as you taste it
Vic: Mm.
John: you can taste the smokiness and then the finish, it's like you're breathing out smoke
John: for a few minutes afterwards, it is the most bizarre thing and
Vic: I might have actually liked that.
John: some people love it
Vic: I might have actually liked it. I tend to kind of like a smoky whiskey.
John: yeah, some people love it, yeah, so I mean, these pitted whiskeys, lots
John: of people love them and they say, you know what, it's part of your palate, you will get there, you know, it's kind of like
John: Marco Armand years ago saying I'll get to, I'll eventually
John: stop putting crap in my coffee and I'll go to black coffee and he was right, eventually
John: I did go to black coffee, but I still only have it on rare occasions, but
Vic: Yeah.
John: I can drink black coffee now, I never used to be able to 8 years ago, so maybe
John: in another 8 years time I'll be enjoying pitted whiskey and I'll look back at these videos that I did and I'll be like
John: oh, well I like it now, so it's a journey, you know, I don't know
Vic: Eh.
Vic: You know, if you don't, even if you don't, it's still fine.
John: absolutely, and that's a good thing
Vic: It's all a relative personal thing.
John: because, and the great thing is there's choice, so anyway, look, I want to keep making
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: whiskey, whiskey for the time being, it makes me happy, I enjoy making it
Vic: That's good, because I want to keep watching it.
John: There's so much more to explore
Vic: [ Laughter ]
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: and there's so much more that I don't know and there are so many damn whiskeys in the world
John: and that's just like, and even the bourbon whiskey market is exploding as well
John: there's so many bourbons now compared to like 20 years ago
Vic: Yeah.
John: there's so many choices and some of the ones that I've had are exceptionally good
Vic: Mm-hmm.
John: so I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to just do scotch
John: I've already done stuff that's not scotch and I'll continue to do more
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: You know.
John: so it's going to be interesting, so yeah
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: You know, if you ever take -- I'm sure you will at some point, but, you know,
Vic: sometime when you take one of your American field trips
Vic: and you've got a little more time to kill and you can make it over to this part of the country,
Vic: I highly recommend checking out -- and I'm sure you probably maybe have already heard about this.
Vic: Also, listeners as well, you know, because a lot of you guys are here.
Vic: There's a thing in Kentucky called the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, and it's basically just --
Vic: it's not like an official trail.
Vic: Like, I mean, there are a few companies that'll take you on a guided van tour through it,
Vic: but basically you can go and tour all of the big, really popular distilleries,
Vic: and you can see how they make it, and you can try samples
Vic: and learn about the history of it and the culture of it.
Vic: It's a pretty interesting experience that you should try sometime,
Vic: especially, like, there's a couple of towns here in this state,
Vic: like the first and biggest one that comes to mind.
Vic: There's a town called Bardstown, Kentucky, and they call it loosely the bourbon capital of the world.
Vic: And it's an interesting town.
Vic: Like, I go into this town regularly for work reasons, not for drinking reasons,
Vic: but, like, when you get into the town, on a good day, the whole town smells like whiskey mash,
Vic: and it's just -- it's wild, and there are just rickhouses everywhere you go.
Vic: You just see these just bunches and bunches of huge rickhouses that are just full of barrels,
Vic: and there's distilleries, and the smell of mash in the air, and the smell of distilling in the air.
Vic: It's really something to experience.
John: Well I do hope to get over there Vic and that sounds like a lot of fun actually
Vic: Yeah, I think you'd really enjoy it.
John: to do with someone else driving
Vic: Well, it depends on how quickly you do the trip.
Vic: Like, if you try and hit them all in a day, yeah, you're going to need a DD.
John: [laughs]
Vic: But if you're doing it over, you know, a few days or a weekend or a week or whatever,
John: yes indeed, yes so
Vic: then it's not too bad, too rough on you.
Vic: But, you know, just given your -- you know, how you're enjoying the experimenting
Vic: and the tasting the different stuff and all and diving into the culture and stuff,
Vic: I think you'd really enjoy it.
Vic: There you go.
John: Well it's added to my bucket list, consider it added
John: Alright, well, so I've released four episodes as of time of recording
John: there are two more that are going to be released in the next couple of weeks
John: so by the time you listen to this they may also be live
John: so record them and when I do record them
John: when I'm sampling these I will actually give my review on the sampling during the recording
Vic: Mm-hmm.
Vic: Right.
John: so it's a genuine sort of like it's not pre-capped like I tried it five minutes ago and wrote down my notes
John: that's not what I'm doing so in any case, alright but you know what if you want to talk more about this
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: [ End ]
John: you can reach me on the Fediverse at chigi@engineer.space or the network at engnet@engineer.space
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John: Mitch Bilger, Shane O'Neill, Jared Roman, Katerina Will, Chad During and Ian Gallagher
John: and an extra special thank you to our gold producers, Stephen Bridle, Kellen Frodelius Fujimoto
John: and our gold producer known only as R
John: now don't forget to check out our other great shows and they include things like Pragmatic Electric
John: obviously, Causality and Whiskey Whiskey which is what we've spent
John: and Causality TV, that's true, it's all Causality
Vic: Causality TV.
Vic: It's really good.
John: but yes, we've spent the whole last hour and a half, nearly two hours talking about Whiskey Whiskey
John: so yes, check that one out as well, please
Vic: Those first four episodes kind of fell off the back of the truck for me,
Vic: and I was able to sneak preview them.
Vic: You really should check them out, listeners.
John: yeah, thanks man, thank you so much and yes, you binged them
Vic: They're really good.
John: so yes, and if you're a premium supporter on Patreon
Vic: You can just try to find me on the socials.
John: you could also binge them all because they're already live right now for all the premium patrons and above
John: so, alright, so if people want to get in touch with you Vic
John: this is the best way for them to get in touch with you, mate
Vic: It's @vickhudson1.
Vic: Probably Mastodon is probably the best place right now,
Vic: and that would be vickhudson1@app.net.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
Vic: Because somebody had to name their thing stupid.
John: that old chestnut is still going
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: you're not wrong, you're not wrong
Vic: Yeah.
Vic: I can be found most places all around the Internet.
John: awesome, alright, cool, thanks for that
Vic: It's just vickhudson1.
John: excellent, very good, well, a special thank you to our supporters
Vic: I've never felt more qualified to do an episode of this show
John: a big thank you to everybody for listening and as always
John: thank you Vic for bringing that special something to this episode in particular
John: I really enjoyed your input and I learnt some things from you and it's been fun
John: so thank you so much for coming on again
Vic: than I do right now.
Vic: [ Laughter ]
John: alright, as the kids say, hashtag winning, there you go
Vic: Yes.
John: alright, thanks again mate, cheers
Vic: Thank you for having me.