Tangential 2: Half Sucked

I am recording. You're recording. Okay. Yes. Good. Don't forget to talk as well. I'm also drinking. What are you drinking? Pale ale. Oh. Thought it was gonna be something exciting. I was gonna say I was hoping for something exciting and it's pale ale. You're drinking and I just woke up. Yeah, well, you know. It's just a tea. It's the beauty. Yeah, well same here. We could have a swig of brandy if you like, John. Yeah, go with that mate, brandy's always good. Do we want to reintroduce ourselves? Oh shit, we should introduce ourselves. Yeah, um, well I'm John Tissie. This is anodized. No it's not fucking anodized. Yeah, okay. On this episode we're going to be talking about fucking whatever. I'm joined by these two guys. How's it going? Nah, nah, nah, nah. Try again. Go. Cutting that one. That's it, you're cut. Welcome to Pragmatic. Nah, nah, you're cut too. This ain't- Pragmatic is a weekly talk show about- This is the opposite of pragmatic, you want to call this anti-pragmatic go ahead. Welcome to anti-pragmatic. A weekly discussion show with no point and no end. And no anything. Dear listener, we are not serious. Actually, we kind of are. That's the problem. All right, you want to do an intro? You've got like 10 seconds. Do it now. Go. I mean I meant Clinton go Clinton first go yeah this is tangential a topic podcast thing no what was your tagline again oh that's terrible I you fucked up my podcast I did not yes you did oh this is now becoming I fucked up your podcast so you're gonna fuck up my podcast and then fuck up each other's podcast and then it's all fucked up all right hey John you could do the bed is so true for this episode is so totally be gonna be the intro to this episode right now. I can feel it. Anyway, um, shit. This is Tangential, an unending conversation where every topic is a tangent from the last embrace the chaos. I'm John Tugge and digressing with me today are Clinton Phillips and Benjamin Herring. Here we go. So Ben tell me a bit about yourself I know that you sort of been listening to the show on and off and pragmatic anyway and I I realize I don't know a great deal about you. I'm fairly boring to be honest. Never ever ever open with that. just, just no. - Oh, everyone's boring. - Okay, no. Hey, speak for you. Hmm, I don't know. I'm not gonna finish that sentence, okay. (laughing) Just go, start again. Three, two, one, go. - I'm 24. I'm living in Texas. That's the United States for you Aussies. - Yeah, I've been to Texas, it's nice. So I'm working in IT, so I work basically just going through and fixing all of the things that break for different companies. So you help people with IT problems, what sort of IT problems? So basically my full job description with the company I work at is I work on the professional services team where basically we are the outsource IT team for a bunch of different companies in the area. So we go through and if they're having problems with their systems or they need to upgrade, we go through and we look at what they have now and provide them with some alternatives, quote that out for them, and then once they approve that, we buy everything, set it up, and install it. And then the help desk team takes over for the most part and supports it. So we're constantly going through and doing server migrations and workstation setups and everything for a few dozen companies a week. - Wow, okay. So we're talking about hundreds or thousands of computers, would you say roughly? How big? - Right now, the monitoring system that we have, I think monitors about 3000 computers for I think about 200 different clients. - Wow, okay. So that's a few. Wow, and I'm guessing these, did you say PCs or Macs? I didn't catch. - PCs. - Okay. My condolences. - Yeah. Gotta do what you gotta do, so. - Goddamn right you do, absolutely. See, in controls, I'm stuck almost entirely with Windows because all the SCADA and PLC software is all written for Windows. So, clients say, "Oh yeah, we need some PCs here. "We need a service set up here. "We need blah, blah, blah." I'm dealing with PCs. It's like, "Yeah, great." Roll the eyes. Here we go again. - Yeah, and honestly, I've only been working with PCs really for the past year and a half. I was almost completely a Mac person before then and then when I was at school in Kentucky actually, I was forced to use PCs because that's what they used. I'm still getting back in the swing of things for Windows which I've been out of for the past five plus years. Wow. Okay. So, does it burn your fingers much or like PCs? - It's, you know, it's funny. I still forget the name of the task bar every now and again. So I'm talking to a client and I'm like, okay, just click the little thing in, crap, what's it called? Right. So it's a little embarrassing from time to time. I'm the IT person and I forget the name of the taskbar. But, uh. (laughs) - Oh God. - Yeah, okay. Well, honestly, I know I rag on PCs a lot, but I used them for years and I guess I just feel like the Mac was, for me it's been a breath of fresh air, but you know, honestly, yeah. A lot of corporate IT is all PCs. Or, and if you're into hardcore gaming, like Clinton is, you build yourself a PC, right Clinton? - No, you get a friend who knows better than you and they build the PC for you. Sorry, yeah, quite right. Sorry. - And then you have to depend on them for the rest of your life. - For textables? - Because they know how to do it and I don't. - Yeah, well, Ben can hook you up now. See, he's on the line. - No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's not do that. - Oh, come on. It's not that hard. He's only on a different continent. Anyway, look. Wow. Anyway, I'm happy that the last PC in the house is gone, but, you know, it's one of those things, because my wife only just recently upgraded to a MacBook Air. So that's sort of been nice, but I still deal with the PC at work from time to time. So I'll never really be truly free, but that's OK. That's life. You got to do what you got to do, right? Yep. Anyway, I have a Mac mini as my main computer at home, and that's hooked up to a projector. And that's my my TV and my computer. So I have my work laptop. So. Cool, nice. No, I got a MacBook Air, my wife's got a MacBook Air, and yeah, that's it. The rest is Apple TVs, iPads, iPhones, basically. So, but yeah, Clinton, you've got quite a collection, I think, don't you? Yeah. I'm just curious, what vintage Mac mini is that? That is the last update to the Mac mini in what, like two years now? So the latest one? Yes. Yeah. The latest one you can get. Which is two years old. Which is ancient. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm ancient in PC in computer terms. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah Oh, the Mac Mini's been through this before where it's just hasn't been updated for a while, but Hopefully it does get updated again I got the The first Mac Mini after they updated it after you know I can't remember how long it was between updates But yeah, it was it was a long time, so I got an early 2009 and also have a late 2009 Mac Mini on the bench. Yeah, mine is the Elite 2009. I was going to get a Mac Mini as the home server and it just didn't pan out because Apple still haven't released an updated version. And I'm just not going to buy hardware that was, when I first had the idea, 18 months out of date. Now it's 24 months out of date. So I'm really hoping that come October they do something about that. Or September-ish or whenever. Hopefully. I'm waiting on a decent update to the Mac Mini and a decent update to the MacBook Air. We've already had one half sucked update to the MacBook Air this year. A half sucked? What the hell does half sucked mean? The update of the thing by like point whatever of a gigahertz and that was it. No, you're talking about speed bumps man. Do we have to... shit. You want to talk about bloody speeds and specs again. They went to lower power. - Yeah, I want more RAM. - Yeah, all right. So does everyone. - Which is the reason why when I buy a laptop, I'm getting a MacBook Pro just so I can get up to the 16. - Well, I've got eight gig on my MacBook Air and it does pretty good. I mean, I can have two VMs running, running XP with different software on it and it chugs along reasonably well on eight gig of RAM. I've even had three VMs running at once and it still kind of worked. Mind you, two is probably about the smart limit, but 16 gig, what the hell are you running, man? That's a lot of RAM. - I like to run everything at once. So I have every single program pretty much open at the same time so I can just switch back and forth. - Okay, that's one strategy. - Yeah, I'm not very pragmatic in the way that I use my computer. - Dropping the P word, okay. Well, all I know is that that's one strategy. Okay, fair enough. I guess I just subconsciously just shut shit down if I'm done with it, but sometimes I have to have like a couple of VMs running at once and I'm still working on the host on various other things, but I guess it all depends on what I'm doing. The RAM gives you flexibility, that's true, and each operating system revision that they release keeps chewing up more and more and more before you know it. You'll need 16GB minimum, probably in a few years. Why do they do that, honestly? Oh, just because... Shouldn't the next version use less RAM? Because they got better at banking it or something? Well, it's all about the fancy stuff they want to do with, you know, transitions and animations and all that. And more RAM helps, you know what I mean? But the problem is, I guess, that's a simplification. It depends on exactly what they're trying to accomplish. But it's one of those things. It's like you give... What's that principle behind freeways? You add more lanes to a freeway and it'll just fill up with more cars. you don't actually solve the problem right it's the same thing with with bloody RAM right you add more RAM and the operating system designers will say oh look at all this RAM we've got we can use that now and before you know it it's gone and then it's all I need yeah I swear that's what happens but totally it's what happens it's the it's a fucking freeway principle which is just you know it sucks it's like have you all seen any any increase in the amount of RAM that you have available or you know since the Mavericks update where they use the compression? I haven't. Yes I have and that's the reason that I upgraded to Mavericks from Snow Leopard because suddenly I didn't feel as though 8 gig of RAM wasn't enough. I felt that like oh this is this is fine whereas before I was constantly running out so yeah I've seen a significant improvement. That's kind of contrast to me, I haven't. I haven't really noticed the difference and it still runs pretty much the same for me. But then I've been on the upgrade train ever since. Well, I mean this MacBook Air came out with Lion on it, I think. And so it's done Mountain Lion Mavericks. But your Mac Mini's been around a lot longer, so a bit longer in the tooth. Yeah, mine, I'm looking at a iSAT menu right now and I've got a little less than a gig of RAM left that is free. I've got inactive about two gigs, but then the rest is being used. And I'm only running Skype and Safari right now. How many page outs you got? Good question. 79,000. Jesus, I got to zero and I've got something like 4GB of RAM free. Yeah, I'm running 8GB right now in my mini. Yeah, I got 8GB in my MacBook Air, so interesting. But then again, I rebooted earlier this afternoon because I got this thing with, I don't know if it's an SSD problem or if it's a HFS+ problem and if it was a HFS+ problem, then Syracuse would be cheering and saying, "See, now you're all sad," or something like that. I would be-- No, he'd be sad with you, but then he'd lament for 30 minutes about the problems with HFS+ and about the promises of ZFS and everything. That's it, because ZFS will save everybody from everything. Yeah, you're right, he would. But then he would argue with you about whether it would really save you or just get the low-hanging fruit that we've been ignoring for the past umpteen years and let us see the new low hanging fruit. Well all I know is that I would love to have ZFS if everything has cracked up to be but the truth is that right now for whatever reason I have to reboot my Macbook Air every now and then every 3 or 4 weeks into recovery mode use Disk Utility to free up the free blocks and get the free block count correct on the hard drive again. Because I just keep running out of hard drive space it keeps on saying oh I've got 20 gig free, I've got 12 gig free, I've got 2 gig free, okay not actually putting anything on there but it's disappearing sure thing all right so you know and then before you know it you know you reboot and oh I just recovered 20 gig great so I don't know if that's a SSD problem or if it's HFS plus problem all I know is it's pissing me off so anyway so why I'm saying that is related to the memory I rebooted the computer not eight hours ago so you know probably helped a little bit with memory. If I had checked about 8 hours ago, 8 hours and 5 minutes ago, I would have had a lot more page outs I would have thought. Anyway. Yeah, my uptime is 22 hours, so. Fine, you win. I'm not sure what you win, but you win something. Should I be looking up my uptime? Well, you can if you want, mate. 8 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes. You suck. You win. You went Brandy, get some Brandy in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and I looked up the, um, just how half-sucked the MacBook Air update was. Yes, the drink, not the person. Sorry, what was that, Clinton? I looked up how, just how half-sucked the MacBook Air update was. Half-sucked. The 11-inch one, which is what I'm interested in, last year, with the base model, was 1.3 GHz. This year is 1.4. Yeah. Fucking amazing upgrade. Man, that .1 gig makes a difference. Oh, I'm sure it does. Like .01% or something, I don't know, whatever. So, yeah, you're pretty much just buying last year's MacBook Air, really. I thought they did a comparison on the Speedmark or something, and they found out that it was a little bit quicker, as you'd expect, but, yeah, it was, yeah, I guess. I mean they're really just waiting for the next generation of the Intel CPUs to come out and you hear conflicting reports about when that's going to happen. So, you know, I mean obviously Apple is stuck with Intel's development cycle so if Intel don't release those CPUs then everyone else is hamstrung until they do. And that's the problem. And they just delayed the 14 nanometer Broadwell chips so, you know, that will impact the Retina MacBooks at least. Are they on a... things ending with "well" bent at the moment? Yeah, I think they have been for the past few iterations. Because there was Haswell, there's Crystal Well, and there's... whatever well that was just mentioned. Are there others? I lose track. I think before that it was like Ivory Bridge and something else, so... Yeah, there was Ivory Bridge and Sandy Bridge. And the only other one that I can remember is Nahalem. Nahalem's a Xeon. Yeah. No, you're getting your Xeons and your, um, cores, um... That's okay, we- Ooh, I have better uptime than I can report. Oh, God. 20 days, 2 hours, 10 minutes. Ugh, stop it already. You won already. You don't need to win twice. In fact, you can't win twice. Oh, dear. Anyway. Yeah, look, if they've delayed the 14 nanometer ones, then, you know, that's going to push it out even more. So I don't know what to think. I don't know. I mean, but getting out of 14 nanometer, that's pretty thin. I mean, that's a pretty small process you're going out and they're getting pretty close to the wall. They've got to be, you know, from a physics point of view. Eventually, the leakage will simply, you know, they won't be able to contain it. So are they are they using Intel's 3D technology yet where they're... it's not just a flat... You mean single plane? Yes. Yeah, I'm not sure off the top of my head to be perfectly honest. I read something about a few months ago, but unfortunately it fell out of my brain because other shit went in. So I need to read up on that. Someone asked me to do an episode of Pragmatic about that, but... Do you need to reboot your brain and see if you can free up some... Shit, if I could do that, it would be so cool. But alas, don't they call that going to sleep every night? That's the idea. But no, doesn't seem to work. I just wake up in the morning and have no idea where I am until I have a drink of coffee. And then I'm like, "Oh, that's right, I could go to work." - Well, I don't drink coffee, so I'm awake instantly. - Oh, fine. Congratulations. Then, um, I don't... Having just done a big, long episode of Fragmatic about coffee, I, uh... Yeah, I don't know what to say to that anymore. But hey. - I hope you don't mind if I skip that episode, John. - Oh, I don't mind. It's fine. Look, I structured that show to be if you don't like the topic, don't listen to the topic. That's why everything's self-contained. So it's all good. No hard feelings. It's fine. But I started the episode, I haven't had a chance to finish it yet. I'm currently four minutes and two seconds in. So it's a long one. Basically, I heard the intro that you gave Marco and then him saying that the topic is going to have absolutely nothing to do with what you said. So, yeah, pretty much. Well, the funny thing is we kind of got coerced, not bullied, just coerced into doing that. Because I had a couple of people say on Twitter, "Hey, you should do an episode about coffee." And I'm like, "Yeah, right." And then Marco says, "Hey, that'd be one I'd be qualified to talk about." And I'm like, "Uh-oh, the crowd is speaking." And then a few more people sort of nudged, nudged. And I was like, "Before you know it, he's on Skype and we're talking about coffee." So, I just went with it. But anyway, so I'm surprised. I expected a lot more negative feedback. I thought people would be like, "Oh, what? You're talking about coffee?" I had hardly any negative feedback about it. I'm stunned. I thought I'd get just hammered, but no. No, it's because all the Marco fanboys come out, the woodwork. No, but Marco has hate boys as well as fanboys, right? And the hate boys then dial in and they say, "Oh, you're a Marco" whatever. I don't know. I mean, all you gotta do is read through some of the threads on Hacking News about Marco and oh my god, there are some people that hate him. I don't get that either, it just seems so ridiculous. Why do people get angry about other people having an opinion? What's the big deal? I don't hate Marco, he's a nice guy and he does say the occasional intelligent thing. But I just hate how, you know, he's the goddamn chosen one to everyone. Yeah, he's not really a chosen one to me. I mean, I respect what he's done. Yeah. That's where it ends, you know. I like... He's just a guy who's had some podcasts and made some apps and, you know. I really like Mark. I always have and I've listened to his podcasts and so on and... Yeah, and honestly, I don't get the hate. I just don't get it. No. No, I don't get the hate towards him. Yeah. But it's not just him. This is the thing is that, you know, let's just talk about Marco for a second. I mean the likes of anyone who's like John Grubber, there's another example, you know, or people that pile hate on Even Jason Snell cops it, which I don't get either, you know. Yeah, he's the nicest person on the internet. Totally. Yeah, I mean You talk to him. I've talked to him. He's such a nice guy and I don't get the hate. I just don't get it. What is so terrible about someone's belief that you just got to attack that person personally? I don't understand it. Well, I don't know about you, Clinton, but I know John was listening to, I think, the last ATP livestream, where John was talking about, you know, he was getting, I don't know if you would call it hate mail, but he was getting some attacks. And I don't think anybody could really hate John Syracuse, not you. I'm sure somebody can hate you, John. Oh shit, yeah, everyone hates me. God yeah. But no, not John Syracuse. No, no, he's cuddly and lovable or something. I don't know, whatever. But I mean, the point is, yeah, you're right. And they were actually arguing in the chat room with this guy. You know? And it's, first of all, the first thing that goes through my head is, A, why the hell are you even giving the guy air time? I mean, okay, fine. you want to, that's your call. But yeah, are you really going to resolve anything? I don't know. Well, it seemed like they made some progress in their online live therapy session. So yeah, but was it because of the conversation with Syracuse and Marco, or was it because of the peer pressure, everyone else in the chat room telling the guy he was an idiot? I mean, was it or was it both or does it matter? I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter. If it made the results, all that matters. Group therapy or group beat up. Not sure. It's a bit of both, really. No, seriously. So everyone, everyone ganging up on this, this, this person, whoever they were, I say guy, presumably, statistically, probabilistically speaking, it would be, but you know, whoever this person was and they all sort of like, you know, heap on him. And I'm not saying they weren't, didn't have some cause or justification to do so, but it's sort of, it's easy to do that when you've got a crowd behind you, you know, it just seems a bit, I don't know, odd to me. I don't know, whatever. Who cares? It's fine. That's the great thing about recording without a chat room. You don't have to deal with that. But it's sort of expected now. Dan Benjamin started something. I mean, 5x5, I mean, did Twit ever have that before 5x5? I don't think so. They didn't have a live chat room, did they? I don't know. I've honestly never gotten into Twit shows, so I filled my plate with 5x5. so. Yeah, I've listened to a few. I listen to Twit for a little while, but their shows just kept getting longer and longer and longer and my attention span just couldn't take it. Then I listen to 5x5 and sort of stuck with that and then I say, "You got longer and longer" and I'm listening to Hypercritical, right? And that goes two hours most of the time. But no, seriously, some of those Twitch shows went for like three and a half hours, some of them. It's unbelievable. But anyway, I don't ever recall a chat room. So, that was That was something that Dan, I think, I don't know if he was the first, but certainly he was the one that maybe popularized it, I'm not sure. But all I know is that now it's almost expected, like if you're a big name podcast, you've got to have a chat room. And I thought about that for Pragmatic, and then I thought about it even maybe one day for this show, but there's a lot of mucking around. You did have a chat room for a little while. Yeah, but it wasn't a chat room in the sense of like 5x5 and so on. was done through a third party and that was Mixler, I think it was the one that Ben Alexander was using at Fiat Lux at the time. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And it was all right. It was a bit flaky. Well, it was still a chat room. Yeah, true. You're right. Yeah, it was. But when we stopped that and I mean, we basically stopped it because Ben sort of said, "Oh, look, it's a little bit of a pain and it's been unreliable," which it had been unreliable, it was sort of disrupting the flow of the show and there's a whole bunch of reasons and we sort of let it go. But I've always wanted to have one, but I want to have one because everyone else has got one, not because I necessarily think that it's the best way to do things. If I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know. I think it makes sense. Yeah. Does it make sense? What my reasoning? Because I'm not sure that was reasoning. I think I was just me rambling. But well, I mean, you could you could always argue that, you know, we don't actually do anything because of reasons, we just have a feeling and then we rationalize that later. So. That was deep. I love that. It's true. There's an element of truth to that, definitely. Yeah. So that's it. Our whole cognitive mind is just there to back up our, to justify our irrational emotions. Pretty much. Yeah. If you like that little statement, I'm pretty sure I stole that almost completely from Simon Sinek. He did a great TED Talk years ago. I'll send you a link to it, but talking about why some people in some companies are successful when others aren't. He came up with the idea of what he calls the golden circle. It's basically about how you communicate, whether it's from the outside in or the inside out. And the inside is why you do what you do, then you have how you do what you do, and then you have what you do. And companies like Apple, they communicate why they do what they do. They do it because they want to make incredible products. And every single time, you know, Tim Cook gets on stage and says, you know, why they created this. It's because they wanted to make something fantastic. They thought that they could make something great. Whereas, you know, companies like Microsoft, they do it because they could, or, you know, because they thought that they had to. Not because they thought that they could make a difference and make something that stood out from the rest. Well that's something that I do think about sometimes and honestly I have a... whenever someone, and I don't mean you, like Apple when someone in a company makes a statement like that, we just want to make good products first thing I do, because I'm just wired the way I am I guess, is I think, well let's look at the polar opposite of that and then propose that as a statement for any other company. - So we wanna make crap products. - Exactly. How many companies out there have that as their statement? See, I don't think there's a single bloody one. So what irks me about we make great products is first of all, define great. Second of all, I honestly think that's a statement of the obvious. I mean, everyone should be wanting to make great products. but the difference is that different companies will place different levels of importance on what they deliver. So if Apple's primary focus is to put out something that everybody likes, first of all, that's impossible. You'll never please everybody. But then- - Look at me. - Yeah, well, you're impossible to please, Clint. (both laughing) Oh dear, anyway. - Some people you just can't even try to win with. - No, that's it. They call them haters or something, I don't know. But you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's more, it's like, I find the statement to be so simplistic as to be almost pointless, 'cause Apple will say, "We just wanna make great products." I'm like, "Well, okay, great." See, Microsoft wanna make great products too, but what makes their products different is that, I think what makes their products different is that they actually genuinely wanna please everybody. They believe in this. They believe in the whole, we can make a product that will make everybody happy. Look at the Surface Pro. I mean, that's what they're trying to do. You can have a laptop, you can take the keyboard off and you got yourself a tablet. One product, running Windows and it'll do everything you ever want. You know, sure, she's awesome, mate. You know, go for it. But the truth is that that doesn't please everyone. In trying to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one or many less than you thought. Right. Or the people that you do please, they're not very pleased. Yeah, because there's too many compromises. And some people will be happy to live with those compromises. And that's fine. But that's not the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people will simply stand the Surface Pro 3 up against, you know, either an Ultrabook, let's say. If you really want to leave Apple out of the equation. And they'll pick the Ultrabook. They'll pick the Chromebook. something that you know is actually a laptop is weighted correctly and everything but you know and if they want a tablet they'll pick an iPad because it's frankly the best tablet out there for the moment so you know because it's lighter it's easier to hold you know and and it's and the apps are typically better for touch interface not always but typically so statistically you're better off with that and that's what the majority of people are voting with their wallets. So I honestly think Microsoft do want to make great products, it's just that they think that they can make a product that will please everybody and in so doing they please nobody or please... So basically they both want to make great products, Microsoft wants to please 100% of the people and I think Apple is a bit more maybe realistic about the fact that they can't do that. So they try and please 80% or 90% of the people out there and meet their needs instead of trying to do everything for everybody. Yeah, exactly. I think they're trying to optimize for one use case or a subset of use cases. So I mean look at the iPad, it's tweaked to be the best a tablet can be, which means you know you have a tablet interface for it. You don't just blow up a 2X app from the iPhone. That works, yeah it works, but it's crummy. And they know that and they knew that from the beginning. Do you remember the original iPad when it launched and you could blow up iPhone apps? Yeah, I did that. That was awesome. Yeah, I'm doing that with Overcast right now. I mean, so I've got Overcast on my iPad mini and on my iPhones. And I say iPhones because I finally after six months with the company I'm with, they finally gave me a phone and they gave me an iPhone. But because the company is the company, they gave me the cheapest available iPhone, which is a iPhone 4s 8 gig. Oh, yeah. Hey, at least they didn't go out and find a, you know, 3gs. That's true. They could have done at least is running gonna gonna run iOS 8. That's true. Yeah. And unlike people with iPhone 4s. Hey, Clinton. Yeah. How's your iPhone 4 Clinton? Still going well. That's fantastic. I mean, I'm enjoying my Note 5. So Yeah, that's okay. This is the peer pressure shit that I shouldn't be doing to Clinton because I don't like it when people do this to me. So I'm going to shut up now. I'm sorry, Clinton. Well, Clinton, don't worry, I'll keep going where John fails. So that's nice. Well, pretty much you can't convince me to like the iPhone 5 or the 5S or whatever comes afterwards. We'll file the top. Predicting is going to have an even bigger screen. So we'll file the top down for you, mate. I definitely agree with you on, I'm guessing you're talking about the screen size? Yeah, I really don't like the screen size. I mean everything else about the phone is good, but I'm just like, nah you ruined it. It's not an iPhone anymore, it's something else. Don't, don't, you know, get stuck romanticizing the past, but I, sorry that sounded a little harsh. But, I definitely agree. I wish that the iPhone didn't have that larger diagonal because even for me with decent sized hands, I have a hard time contorting my hand to get up to the top left corner. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the biggest... I like the biggest screen in real estate but using it one handed is a bit harder. So, I guess I'm in that segment of the population that gets frustrated by that as well. I find myself adjusting the grip on the phone to shuffle it up and down my hand slightly. I've talked about this before previously, but I yeah it works it's good and like I say it's a trade-off you make for the bigger screen but if they go bigger again and they're going to you just know they're going to. I can't see myself getting that bigger phone I just can't and as it stands this one keeps falling out my damn pocket there's a lot of pockets that that's just too tall for and you lean forward and if you don't button the top of the pocket it just falls out. So everyone goes on about the "oh I want a bigger screen or a bigger screen why don't you go out and buy a tablet? I did. Hmm yeah I've got a tablet too so you know I don't need a bigger screen iPhone because I have an iPad mini. But you could take a bigger screen with you in your pocket oh hang on no you can't now it's too big for your damn pocket anyway. Yeah. Yeah. When? I don't know. The thing that that shits me though about people who demand a bigger screen iPhone and this is I listened to the Enarco Almanac and Andy Enarco is pretty much he's the president of the bigger screen iPhone lobby and yeah every time that he says oh they need to release a bigger screen iPhone I said okay Apple releases a bigger screen iPhone you get what you want but that means that I'm missing out because Apple only ever releases one iPhone with the exception of the 5c which is just a 5 with a plastic exterior. I don't see them releasing two or three different iPhones with different size screens I just don't see them doing that. There's nothing stopping them from doing it but you know I don't see them doing that anytime in the near future. I'm gonna put money on the fact that they do. When I say I'm gonna put money on it I mean I'm not gonna put money on it but it's supposed to inspire confidence because it's supposed to sound confident which you know. It was still a pretty broad statement. Yes it is broad and that's that's that's how I roll at least anyway. I put money that Apple will do this thing. Damn right head over your money no no no no it's fine I don't really want do that. Maybe they do it in 20 years but... I don't specify time, I'm sorry. I'm hoping that they keep the 5s form factor and then just add a larger screen onto it because I'm right there with you Clinton, I would hate to go to an even bigger size. This is very much pushing the boundaries of what I'd like to use. But something bigger is just, I don't see the need or the desire to use something like that. I mean the bottom line guys is that they are going to release a bigger iPhone physically in both the X and the Y directions. That's just a reality, it's only a matter of when. And I would expect it's going to be this year. I thought it would be last year, but it wasn't. I think they are going to do it and everything that they've done at WWDC with the different resolutions and designing for, designing your apps such that they are more resolution independent, there's so many hints that this is coming that it's almost to me it's a given. I suggest that they're going to have two iPhone sizes, there'll be the current 5S and 5C screen size and there'll be a bigger one and that's what I expect them to do. I mean we won't know To bring up the Inarco Almanac again, Andy, he posited a different theory that maybe it's not suggesting different screen sizes, maybe it's suggesting your app running within another app, you know, because they have that whole thing where you can now project an interface into something else. Well, what if your interface doesn't take up the entire screen? What if it takes up a portion of the screen? Well, you'd need to be able to have your app, because it doesn't know what size it's going to be when it gets projected into another app, you need to make it so that you can adjust when it does that. Yeah, that's a good point. I had heard that theory kicked around before as well. Yeah, it's possible. Certainly possible. But I mean if you think for a second that Apple aren't going to try and address that market for the larger phones, then I think you're mad. They're going to. It's only a matter of time. Another thought just occurred to me, what if they also use this to project your app into, say, an iWatch? Well, it's possible. I don't know. The problem that I've got though with the whole iWatch idea is that that's a significantly smaller amount of space. space. I mean, if you were to cut an iPhone screen, as it stands today in half, and then put that size on your wrist, that is comically large. You know, so then if you're going to shrink, you like, let's say cut it in thirds, that's still comically large. I mean, it'd be something like a quarter or smaller of that screen size, maybe a sixth. And you got to think how many of your user interface elements are actually going to scale down? I mean, because the simple answer is go or higher density, so high number of PPI, and then you can cram more on the smaller space. But then it's the same, it's the adage that the jobs had about filing down your fingertips. The touch targets have got to be a certain size. There's all sorts of issues with that. I mean, I don't disagree with the idea in theory. I mean, certainly that should be possible. But then the next question is, how are you going to get the data back and forth? I mean, if you're going to push data, screen data, full colour depth from a phone across to the screen and you're doing over Bluetooth 4, which I'm assuming that they would do, because I mean, you know, Wi-Fi just is too power hungry for especially for a watch, I would have thought. Then, you know, that's a heck of a lot of bandwidth. You know, that's like screen sharing, but, you know, over Bluetooth 4 is... Hmm. Yeah, even that, I guess, would kill the battery pretty darn quickly. Yeah, but I guess it's the sort of thing you wouldn't work on your watch for a significant period of time. At least that's a presumption. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if it would practically work. I do honestly think if they're going to release an iWatch with an interface, then the interface is going to have to be subtly different. I don't think that they can just copy what they've got. Because I mean, you look at the Nano, the iPod Nano with its little interface that sort of mimics iOS. I mean, it's not iOS, it's its own, you know, operating system, but it looks just like iOS. I just think to myself, well, it kind of works. You know, I've played with it, but it's not great. You're talking about the square iPod Nano? The square Nano, yeah, with the touchscreen and the little four icons that look just like a mini cutout of iOS. That's what I'm talking about. Have you played with one of those? Yeah, I have the watch band and everything for it. Okay. So, I mean, how do you find that interface? You reckon that works? It works painfully. Yeah. But... Yeah, that's my problem. It's painful, isn't it? Right. But at the same time, it's, at least for me, it's not painful enough to not get the use out of it. And I realized that I'm the type of person that, like right now, I'm running, you know, beta OS on my iPhone and on my Mac just because I'm the type of person that I love to know what's coming next and, you know, see what's happening as soon as I can. And so I have apps crashing on me, you know, several times a day on my iPhone. So I'm probably not the best person to ask about that, I guess. Okay. Well, look, that's fine. I guess all I'm trying to get at is that they tried that "Let's do the iOS interface, but we'll do it on the Nano" and I don't think it works that great. It works, I guess, but it's not revolutionary, it's not evolutionary, it's a clone. It's a shrunk down clone and it's the software equivalent of filing your fingertips. So, honestly, yeah. Who knows. I mean, I do think that Apple is definitely going to release a wearable of some description, but that's all we really know. We really don't know anything. So we'll see, I guess we'll see what happens. Yeah, and I've said- Can I put a downer in this iWatch thing? Yeah, I think it's, I think it is. Yes, go on. Why do people get so fucking excited about it? I don't get the excitement either, mate. No, how could it be bigger than the iPhone? How could it be bigger than the iPad in terms of change and success and all that other bollocks? It strikes me as a very, very niche product. people keep banging on about it as if it's the most life-changing thing to ever happen. It hasn't happened yet. It's probably not gonna happen either. Yeah I don't think it... I think people go on about it because they're just looking out for the next big thing and they're just saying well what's next? But this isn't the next big thing this is just some other thing. Yeah I know. I don't fucking disagree with you. I'm just saying that you know just look at... okay everyone's... everyone is... okay look they're over waiting for the fucking TV all right it's like it's done guys Apple yeah that's not gonna happen no no you still haven't done it you still haven't done it you still haven't done it Gene Munster's like fucking how many times has he said oh this is gonna be it every concert is cool yeah every time it's like no it's not gonna okay forget it that ship has sailed either it's sailed or it's stuck in the harbor I don't know which whatever but it's just not going anywhere so they're like what's next okay let's do wearables yeah yeah yeah wearables what I find so laughable about it all though is that you don't think for a second that Apple hasn't been fucking around with wearables for the last five years at least in their R&D section? Yeah I'm sure they have in their R&D section but you know I'm sure they do lots of things in their R&D department but how many of those things actually get out into the wild? Yeah but very few of them I guess knowing Apple. Yeah sure and and I guess that's my point is that you look at all these other companies like Samsung and and so on then they're happy to release a Galaxy Gear which is a you know like a half-baked sort of you know that is a niche product the way that's been designed and you know it doesn't look Let's see what happens. Yeah exactly and you get Kickstarter projects as well you know like the Pebble and it's like well okay I mean these aren't mass market fully blown fully developed well thought-out products these are let's try it and see what happens products and don't get me wrong they're gonna suit a a bunch of people and that's great but that's not what Apple's about. So they're about they'll do all this shit in R&D and it'll just never see the light of day and that's fine that's the way honestly it should be. So maybe there's some great products we'll never see but then again there's some bad products we'll also never see so you know. I don't know I guess that the point of it all is people get excited about it because they see it as the next product category that Apple could revolutionize but I don't get it. I don't get what's there is to revolutionize. Yeah, what's to revolutionize? The thing is about tablets that shits me is that tablet computers have been around for ages. I mean Bill Gates and Microsoft were going on about tablet computers long before Apple was. They were producing software that would work on it. It's just the software was shit. That's all. So you know when Apple made it... And so was the hardware. Yeah, the hardware was all based on the PC platform. That was the problem. It still had a keyboard attached to it half the time, you know. So that was that was a problem. But all Apple said was, "Okay, well ditch the damn keyboard, get serious about touch. Hey, presto, here's a tablet." So, I mean, I look at the watches and everything and I mean, same thing may happen. Is it going to be revolutionary? Probably not. It's certainly not going to change my day to day computing needs, I would think. See, an iPad can mostly replace a PC, an iPhone can replace a telephone. But a smartwatch can't replace either of those things, obviously, it can replace a watch. That's about it. I think that it's more about augmenting the technology that we already use. I definitely agree that it's probably not going to be a revolutionary product. But I think that it will hopefully allow us to integrate this technology even, I guess not more deeply, but allow us to access some of of the technology even easier and allow us to do things that we were not able to do yet. And you know, having the health pieces of this, you know, where it will give us heart rate and blood pressure and things like that, which are honestly very boring, but they're also very important in today's health consciousness, you know, and health care. society where it's boring once you see that everything is pretty stable, but it's also I think going to be eventually something that our doctors are looking at where they, as soon as we go in, they pull up the past six months of our blood pressure and heart rate and say, "Hey, you had a few things going on here. Was that super stressful time?" It's definitely not going to be revolutionary, but I think it will be an important step towards something. The way I see it is that heart rate and blood pressure and all that, even if you could accurately get—heart rate, yes, I believe. Blood pressure, I don't know, not so much. Irrespective, whatever biometrics you're going to collect. The way that the iPhone was awesome and revolutionary in so many ways at the beginning is the way it used its sensors to actually improve its function. You know, so you would rotate the phone physically and it would detect that through its accelerometer and it would change its view as a result. You know, and think about those are the sorts of things that it did. You know, an ambient light sensor to adjust the amount of backlight in the screen. The stuff that they used... Turning the screen off when you hold it to your ear. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. The proximity sensor. Exactly. So, that's the sort of thing those sensors are useful. They can be made to blend into the technology so you don't even realize it's doing it. And then you think afterwards, oh, wow, that's so obvious. You know, why didn't everyone do that? And so then you think of, OK, here's a smartwatch. Well, what's the heart rate going to do? So, if your heart's pumping faster and you're jogging, maybe you could turn the screen off to save some battery or something, because you're probably not looking at the screen. But maybe you want to look at the screen when you're jogging, but then you're not looking where you're going. I don't know. Maybe that's too presumptuous. You know what I mean? It's like, what can that actually help the damn phone? Sorry, the damn smartwatch to do? And the answer is nothing really that I can, I can't think of anything. If it's only going to be used for historical archiving. Sure, I knew what my heart rate was six months ago at 630 in the afternoon, in the evening. That's great. Whether or not that's useful or not, I don't know. I mean, here's another question. What is it going to be accurate enough? I mean, with blood pressure, for example, 'cause I've had, I've known, my family members and so on in the past have had these blood pressure monitors and they put them in your arm and they record your blood pressure for a 24, 48 hour period. And then you return them to the hospital and they download the data. And these things will literally automatically, you know, inflate, deflate periodically. They got a battery in them and then after the 48 hours, the battery is pretty well spent. You take it and they dump all the data out of it. You know, it's like a blood pressure monitor plus a data logger. And, you know, and that's what they do in medicine. Now, whether or not they can actually accomplish that with something mounted on your wrist, I don't know. So the only, sorry, just next thought is, I don't know how valuable that's gonna be. The value I see though, is I look at my wristwatch when I'm driving, see what time it is, okay? That's still legal. But if I pick my phone up and have a look at it, I can get booked for that shit. So you're operating a mobile phone when you're driving. I just picked it up to see the messages from doesn't matter. Still going to get fined. You know what I mean? Whereas you look at a wristwatch that's still legal. I say still legal, I mean, just wait till they make smart watches and the smart watches everywhere. And then I'll suddenly say, oh, no, you can't do that when you're driving. So you don't have a clock in your car? Maybe the clock's broken, but I mean, it's serious. I got a clock on my bike. Well, good. Fuck, it was nice. You got a good bike then. It's the bike that comes with a clock. Someone obviously thought of it. But I mean, my point is that, you know, think about it. I mean, what are the things that a watch can give you in environments where you're not allowed to pick up a phone, you know, like maybe in a meeting where it's considered bad form or when you're driving a car when it's illegal, you know, that a watch could help with? So that's where I think it could be useful. But beyond that, I don't see it being useful at all. I'm not sure. Maybe we should see if we can conference in Mike Hurley. I'm sure he's on his lunch break right now, so I'm sure we can get him in. Why Mike Hurley? I'm sorry, what am I missing? He has used the Pebble a lot. He really likes the Pebble and he just got the LGG Shocker something, I guess they were talking about on the last prompt. Oh, yeah, that's right. Now I remember. Sorry. It's funny. I just I just blanked for a second there. But yeah, you're right. Okay. I mean, you've only had them on your show, you know, once or twice. Yeah. I mean, it's not like you have to pay attention or anything. Oi, we didn't talk about smartwatches, all right. Geez. Now, I do listen to the prompt. It's just for whatever reason, my mind blanked when you are when you suggested that. but honestly, yeah, maybe I should, but no, he's probably busy starting a new podcasting empire or whatever he's doing. I love the fact that everybody's calling it an empire. I don't know if I started that or not on the show. But anyway, because I don't know. It's just awesome. Oh, dear. Well, I mean, yeah. Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see. So what watching this space with with with close interest. One thought that I, one last thought on the iWatch. Yeah. Do you guys remember a few years ago when Apple patented a combined e-ink and LCD display? Vaguely. They patent all sorts of things. I remember when they patented the display that you could insert a laptop into. Well, that'd be cool. It would be cool, but they haven't done it yet. Lazy bastards. I just see that being if they can pull it off and everything which if anybody can, I'm sure Apple can or at least they can buy somebody who can. That's more like it, yes. That would be something that I would expect to see on an iWatch. Right. If it's an iWatch like we're thinking of it. You've got to address the battery drain somehow. And those sorts of displays are far better for your power consumption. So yeah, I agree with that, definitely. But the question is whether or not they would have a good enough refresh rate and a good enough resolution. There are sorts of things that Apple gets hung up on, whether or not the experience would be too crummy, crappy, whatever. Well, I mean, if you just need it to display the time for the majority of the time that you're using it, Using the E Ink shouldn't provide much of an issue and then you know when you actually go to use it however they decide to notice that whether it's if you actually touch it or you know you turn it towards your face or you know whatever then they can switch the LCD on and have an actual usable refresh rate. Yeah, that's true. But the thing is that, yeah, if that's, yeah, I guess until I see that in action, I wouldn't know whether or not that would, yeah, whether or not that would be a big selling thing. I don't know. I know what Apple's like, I mean, right, because they're always going on about the high PPI, the retina displays, the beautiful, bright, bright vibrant displays I just can't see them putting that into one of their products I don't know maybe maybe because there's all sorts of other technology that we don't know about you know people developing this stuff that not all of it gets showcased you know like Qualcomm's always going on about was it Mirosol or all these other different display technologies that are that are out there different companies showcase them but there's a shitload of stuff that isn't showcased it's all behind closed doors I mean before the Connect sensor was the Connect in the Connect that was you know being sort of shown around to companies on on secret trying to get someone to buy them but they weren't advertising it and shouting it from the hills so I tend to think that if they're gonna do something with some technology like that we have no idea exactly what it's gonna be like because no one's advertising it that's what I'd suggest but then Apple doesn't do a hell of a lot of that really do they I mean they buy stuff that is either proven or near proven they want a sure bet they don't usually buy like like PA semi had put a bunch of chips out before they bought them you know and I think the same is true of you know Siri you know it was a functional product before Apple bought it so I don't know I go back to Clinton's comment who really wants the damn who's so excited about smart watches and what's the big damn deal anyway cuz um Yeah, I got so kind of agree with you so I think we're for the most part all in agreement We don't want a bigger iPhone, and we're not all Super excited about an iWatch if excited at all. That's it So we're basically all you know we're disappointing Yeah, we're totally disappointing fanboys right now Right now Tim Cook's crying in a corner. He's like, come on What I have to do to get y'all interested I Can't do his accent. I can't Hey, cousin. Hello. That made it worth just to hear you say y'all. Y'all? I heard you say before Funny thing is when I lived in North America, I actually caught myself saying a few things like that from time to time It's been beaten out of me now But yeah, I came back and had so many people comment on me. They're like you picked up their accent like Y'all totally wrong I did not Anyway Never mind. I may have slipped away again Anyway, never mind that. Oh dear never mind So you were gonna say something to Clinton before I interrupted you just like I did again. Oh was I I'll probably hey Clinton Hey, yeah, what the hell are you doing? Still drinking beer. That's it. Did you add brandy after all that shit, or did you not? I have the bottle here. So you're just looking at the bottle. You're not actually No, I'm halfway through this bottle. Oh, that's alright. Yeah, that's fine then. This is my drinking brandy Is there's not like oh as opposed to cooking brandy, I guess right Yeah, well you get the green label stuff for cooking. We get the blue label stuff for drinking but we we have drinking bottles and then we have have the special bottles that sit in the cupboard for years and it takes us ages to get through, but this would probably be the second or third bottle of brandy that I've bought this year. Wow. It's just my go-to drink when I want something that's... want to drink a spirit. Yeah. Well, fair enough. No, I'm more of a scotch and a bourbon kind of guy. Don't mind a few liqueurs like Sandbuker or, well it's actually mainly Sandbuker to be honest. Depends on what sort of mood I'm in, but I can't stand wine, I can't stand beer. Just can't get into them. Says the guy that drinks coffee, but hey, there you go. Because it's an acquired taste, right? Coffee's an acquired taste, just like wine and beer is an acquired taste, I guess. Oh yeah, absolutely. But if you tried, well what beer have you tried? Oh, Jesus, everything? Like, well, let's see. I've unfortunately tried Foster's and 4X and VB and... You're naming a lot of crap beers so far. Yeah, well, aren't they all crap? If I have to go to a... Yes, they are. Okay, here's the problem. Okay, here's the problem I got with this. So you named some crap weak beer from Queensland. Yeah, Foster's isn't from fucking Queensland. And Norris VB, Victoria Bitter, and I know him of one Queensland beer. So don't don't give me that's Queensland. 4X, that's Queensland. Yeah, that's the only one you said. I listed a couple. No, I didn't. I didn't list a couple of Queensland beers. There's only one in the list. Geez. I think there was a Skype fuck up and you misheard me. No, I didn't mishear you. No, I heard you. Sorry, you're not getting out of that one. Damn right. Skype artifact my ass. Anyway, I started listing the different states. I said you've listed some crap beers so far one from Queensland one from Victoria This is recorded as does come from I am seriously gonna go back and amplify that one bit where you said that anyway look whatever who? Cares point is that I'm gonna do that because that's just um you know that's okay My knickers are knotted now, but I won't hear when I listen to it in overcast because of voice boost so You named some some crap weak beer from Queensland some some crap weak beer god damn it Clinton was right right this time. True, true enough. Okay, anyway, seriously, though, Clinton, look, you're right. I haven't tried a lot of like, quote unquote, nice beers. I've tried Guinness once as well. And a bunch of different ones, but they're all forgettable. I don't remember their names. They're like, Stella. Shit, I don't remember them. But I'll try a sip every now and then and I just don't get it. No, just tastes off. But the thing is there are so many different beers out there. There's specialty beers, there's micro breweries, there's you know imported stuff. There's so many beers around the world. The argument, I just haven't found the right one yet, I guess. But I can try coffee from half a dozen coffee shops and it tastes passable. You know what I mean? It's like just just because I'm not getting my beer ground from the highlands of Ethiopia doesn't mean that it's shit coffee it just means that well I prefer that one but you know I like coffee whereas with with with beer I'm just not there I haven't found a single beer that I like yet and it's not like I've only tried one so that's my problem well sorry that's my problem with beer I have other problems but that's my problem with beer. Well the whole point of me asking was it was gonna suggest that you try a stout but you said that you tried Guinness which is similar to. No I don't think I've tried. Well you probably wouldn't like The thing is, when I tried the Guinness, it was here and I remember once someone... Because the Guinness here is served cold, right? But I'm told that you're... By people from that part of the world, that you're not supposed to have it cold. The Guinness is supposed to be served at room temperature or something. Is that true? Well, you look at where that part of the world is and room temperature up there is probably damn slight colder than your room temperature. You make a very, very good point, Clinton. It's like how the ways say that red wine is supposed to be served at room temperature. Well, if room temperature is a 30 degree day, do you really want to be drinking red wine? You chill it. Yeah, yeah, I see the point. Well, okay. I don't know, Benjamin, what do you reckon? I have no input. I don't drink coffee or beer, so. What about wine? I'm useless to you right now. You're useless? No, you're not. Jeez. I said right now. That's fine then. We'll save you for later. The point is, not everyone's... I sort of rattle off all these drinks. I'm not actually much of a big drinker anymore. I used to be in my youth, but I don't know. I just get to that point these days where I'd rather have a glass of something really nice than just, "Oh, I'm going to have a sip of this just because I want a sip of this," whatever. I tend to just have a little bit of scotch or, you know, Sandbook or something from time to time. I'm just not the party animal I was once. Come to think of it, I was never a party animal. If I was, I was a very sluggish animal. I don't know. - So, just thinking, because when you're talking about, you know, you've tried a bunch of beers and you don't like any of them. - Yeah, that's it. same with white wine. I just can't get into white wine. I like red wine, but white wine, I just don't see the appeal. Yeah. And I've tried a whole bunch and all of them, like, maybe I'd do better if you lined them all up and I'd be able to tell the difference between it. But they're all just taste like white wine to me, and I just can't get excited about it. You give me a red and I get excited about it. You give me a whiskey, I get excited about it. You give me a beer, I get excited about it. But white wine, I just like, eh. I get the feeling every now and then this comes up with my wife, we talk about, you know, we should do a winery tour and she's like, then after you do a winery tour, you'll probably start to develop some of that taste and that palate and maybe you'll start to understand it a bit more and maybe might find it more interesting. And I don't know, maybe she's got a point because I haven't given wine as much of a chance as I've given beer. That's just more of a, you know, it's like you're at a bar, you say, oh, I'll have a red wine, please. I mean, you don't, right? You still have a beer or I'll have, you know, whatever else harder than that. But how many people order wine at a bar? So. Well, if they're getting a meal as well, they might. Yeah, yeah, I know. But I'm just saying from social situations, right? So, if you have it with a meal. But even getting a counter meal at the pub and having a red wine with that, that's still a little bit weird. Yeah, it is. Certainly here anyway. I don't know if it's different in the States, but. I don't know. You get a counter meal in a pint. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I'm hoping Ben's going to chime in here, but he's just not because he said he's useless to us at the moment. Ben: Yeah, pretty much. I have been in a number of bars, and I'm pretty sure anybody that went up to the bar and asked for a chamomile tea would probably get a few weird looks. But yeah, other than that, I'm solely useless. YARO: Okay. You spend more time hanging out at the menu bar? Is that what you're telling me? What is a menu bar? You don't know what the menu bar is, I'm sorry. I thought you were a fan of the menu bar too, sorry. That's a podcast that is no more. Oh no, unfortunately not. I haven't heard of it. Anyway, nevermind that. Okay, what's the point of plugging a podcast that's no longer being made, what can I say? They made one episode of it. That was called Zack & Co. Yeah. Everybody is still talking about Bionic so I hear everybody is still talking about that. Yeah, well everyone is sad about Bionic. I mean Bionic... The thing that shits me is that I just started to get into Bionic. It took me three attempts. I start to get into it, there's three episodes and boom, nah we're cancelling. Like oh fucking hell, really? I just started to like it. *laughs* Sometimes I'm during the middle of the day and I just hear the bloody cash register going "ching" and the coins tumbling out thanks to bloody Mike Hurley. Well no, but no it's over now. That's great. *sigh* Nevermind. I guess it's kinda like watching Breaking Bad after it's finished. 'Cause I didn't watch Breaking Bad, I didn't watch a single episode of Breaking Bad until about six months after it finished? And I'm just, I'm getting into the second season. I'm like, this is so amazing. Why didn't I watch this earlier? Same thing, did it to myself again. Anyway. - The hard knock life of John Chiggy. - Yeah, I know. It's such a tough, tough life I've got here. You know, binge watching Breaking Bad and complaining about the end of Bionic. And I've still got, you know, a back catalog of how many, what, 98 episodes they made. I mean, okay, so I've listened to about half of them now, but you know, still. Gosh, this is tough first world life I've got here. Shocking. But anyway... So, Clinton, where are you going on holiday? Uh, well, the plan was to go to my grandparents' farm and then go up north a bit, and then go to Melbourne, but the Melbourne part of the holiday has been cancelled. What happened? Uh, well, you remember how I told you redundancy pay is being held until September? - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - That happened. - Yeah, that happened. So yeah, that's sort of makes-- - Melbourne's, yeah. - Yeah, makes Melbourne go out the window. 'Cause, I mean, to go up to my grandparents' farm, that's a tank of petrol, two tanks of petrol. But to go to Melbourne, that's a lot of tank of petrol and tanks of petrol. And where do we stay? I don't know that we wanna stay, because I've got relatives over there, but I don't know that we want to stay with them. Their house isn't particularly well kept. So we might have to go to a caravan park or something like that, which adds to it. And then there's all the meals that you've got to do. - So do these, do they actually listen to podcasts, these people with the house that's not well kept? - No, no, no, no. - So there's no risk they're going to listen to this. You want me to, I can cut that out if you want. - Oh, you can, if you want, but no, They're not going to hear it. Left in at Clinton's instruction. I hope so too. Well, I mean, man, I hope they don't listen to this. Yeah, look, it's all good, mate. I mean, you don't have to justify. Bottom line, though, is that, yeah, I mean, it's based on the photos. I know I've seen some of your photos from the last time you were out there. Yeah. And it just looks lovely. It's just my sort of place, you know, nice, quiet, relaxing, you know. Oh yeah, it's a very nice part of South Australia. Yeah, away from everything. Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's, you know, I think it's almost smack bang in the middle of the state, almost. Right. It might be a little far south of right in the middle, but yeah, it's... And there's a lot of interesting geology up there. Opals? I quite like geology. Opals. Hey? Opals. Coober Pedy. No, it's nowhere near Coober Pedy. No, no, it's not that far. No, I didn't think so. Um, no, but they do have Ediacara just south of it, and that's where all these fossils are coming from. Some of the earliest life forms on Earth are found just south of where we go. Wow. Cool. That's cool. Did you catch any? No, no, I do have some fossils. It's mostly seashells and things like that from other trips that we've done. But yeah, no, it's a lot of the rocks out in South Australia. It's very, very old. They're some of the oldest on Earth. And yeah, when you look at the... Did you see the creek that we went down? The photos of the creek that we went down? Vaguely, I think so. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I looked through all the photos, so I must have seen them. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we went through this bloody great big gorge and it's layers and layers of sedimentary rock that has just been completely turned on its side. And it's just phenomenal to look at. Cool. Having been to that part of the world, I've been, I flew in and out of Adelaide and that was it. And I've driven to Melbourne and I did Great Ocean Road, but that's about it really. I stopped, in terms of driving, I stopped at Warrnambool, but... - Warrnambool's a nice place. - Yeah, I didn't mind it. I actually stayed at Port Ferry though, which is a little bit further, but it's... Yeah, it's pretty. - But... - We only stayed there one night and I'd like to go back. Okay. Yeah, it's a nice spot. But anyway, well at least you're having a bit of time to have a holiday and your holiday is actually a holiday as opposed to a holiday with children which is not a holiday. It's a form of legitimate torture. Yeah, legal torture. How much longer do I have to put up with these damn kids? Well it's more of a, I love my beautiful darlings and oh that's them fighting again. *laughter* Can you stop pushing those other kids? All right. Okay, great. Now these are they're not my kids. They're really not mine No, they're there's some okay. They are mine. All right I'm sorry officer. I just she she was an accident. She didn't mean to stab. Okay. It just you know, I Okay. I mean I I joke but you know, seriously sometimes yeah, I love my kids I mean, they're beautiful and I can't get enough of them but when it comes to holidays, they certainly do change the pace of the holiday from relaxing to less relaxing very quickly. But that's okay because the holiday becomes about them having fun as opposed to you having fun. Enjoy your holidays that are childless, Clinton. I'm just saying, just soak it all up. Soak it up. (upbeat music) [MUSIC] I'd give you a gold star but I can't. I'll just, hang on. No, it's not working. Sorry. I appreciate the effort. Well, I've got gold stars on the end of my frigging mic now. Okay, fine. Clinton. So, I've been listening- That was Clinton Phillips and thank you for playing. You bastard. You were just going to fucking do a different, you were just going to do a Clinton again, weren't you Clinton? I was going to say that I've been listening to Pragmatic since the very first episode. Ah, okay, this is a competition as to who listened first. I'm pre-Marco. Fine. Well, I was listening to it in my head before I actually recorded it and put it out there, so there you go. Again, I win nothing. That's fine. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]