Pragmatic 116: Whisky Whiskey

Vic: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. John: All good? No? Vic: There's never been a more appropriate time for this. John: [Sounds of a glass breaking] Vic: Yeah, you're welcome. John: [Sounds of a glass breaking] John: And there it is. John: Very good, thank you. John: Alright, intro time. John: Pragmatic is a show about technology and contemplating the finer details in their practical application. John: By exploring the real world trade-offs, we drive into how great ideas can be transformed into products and services that impact our lives. John: Pragmatic is entirely supported by you, our listeners. John: If you'd like to support us and keep this show ad-free, you can by becoming a Premium Supporter. John: Premium Support is available via Patreon and through the Apple Podcasts channel subscription. John: Premium Supporters have access to early release high quality versions of episodes as well as bonus material from all of our shows, not available anywhere else. John: Just visit engineer.network/pragmatic to learn how you can help this show to continue to be made. Thank you. John: Before we begin this episode, by popular request, official Pragmatic t-shirts are available again for a limited time with different drinkware and stickers also. Vic: Pretty good, I need to order a new t-shirt. John: If you're into that sort of thing, visit engineer.network/store for details. John: I'm your host, John Chidjie, and today I'm once again joined by my good friend, Vic Hudson. How's it going, Vic? John: You... hmm... well... it's there. Vic: Let's just say I have horizontally outgrown the original one. John: [Laughs] John: I see. I see. And this is a thing that happens. You know, things... dimensions fluctuate over time. Vic: [LAUGH] John: They are a variable, in fact, for all. Vic: Mm-hm. John: Very good. Well, you know where they are. John: So, in any case, I just wanted to give listeners a couple of updates before we dive into this episode, which I'm very excited to be recording for a whole bunch of different reasons. John: But I want to start with my recent trip to Arizona. John: So, I went to Arizona, as I think I mentioned to you before, Vic, yeah. Vic: Yes, mm-hm. John: And I came back alive. No rattlesnakes got me. John: And the altitude... no scorpions. No, I didn't see any scorpions. No. No, no, no. Vic: That's good, scorpions? Vic: Okay. John: And on one of the evenings when I was over there, I was able to drive to... close to the border with Nevada, and I met up with Ronnie Lutz. John: And had a great... had a great time. I met him, met his wife in person, and we had dinner, and I learned what white gravy was, and yeah. Vic: Yes. John: It was... it was a good time. It was great meeting him, actually. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: Wait, you learned what gravy was? John: White. White. Oh my God. White gravy, mate. Jeez. Vic: You've made it this far in your life without the fifth food group? Vic: A white gravy. John: Yes, I know what gravy is. I just don't know what white gravy was. Now I do. Thank you, Ronnie. Vic: It's good stuff, man. John: I concur. Yes. John: Oh, he had... it was biscuits and something. But they weren't actually... yeah. Vic: What did you have this white gravy on? Vic: Sausage gravy. John: They weren't actually biscuits, though. It was like a kind of a bread, like a... you know, you're American. You're supposed to know what that means. John: Don't ask me to describe it. Something like that. Vic: Maybe they were drop biscuits. John: Anyway, it was kind of like... Vic: They're not rolled and cut biscuits you make them. John: No. Vic: If it's what I'm thinking of, you make them by dropping a spoonful of dough on Vic: the baking sheet there and then you just let them bake up. Vic: And they break up and they tear up really good for putting gravy on. John: Hmm. John: Okay. Well, maybe. I don't know. All I know is that Ronnie was having it, and he shared, because Ronnie is awesome. John: Anyway, so... he is. He is. He's a delight. Vic: Ronnie's an awesome human being, he's the best. John: And honestly, yeah, so I learned a lot more about him that I didn't know. John: And his family and some of the similarities. And like between our two, we both have daughters that are the same... John: almost exactly the same age, studying something with a medical angle, which is rather interesting. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And honestly, it's kind of crazy. But never mind. So, yeah. So that was a good time. John: And the reason I was over there was presenting at the User Centric Design... User Centered Design Services, or UCDS, conference. John: So, I gave my presentation, and there's a link in the show notes if anyone's interested about what I did. Vic: Yeah. John: And essentially, it was weird, because I was the only person presenting that was not a customer of theirs. John: So, I... or a vendor. Like, I wasn't selling anything. Anyway. John: So, the conference... so the conference day, the presentation was an hour long, and it was on the morning of the last day. John: It was the second presentation on the last day. And at this point in time, I didn't realize it at the time, Vic: Ooh. John: but I was actually suffering from altitude sickness. I'd wake up at like one or two in the morning, and I'd have a splitting headache. John: Now, I had had a few to drink the previous night, but as many people that know me wouldn't know, I don't get hangovers. Vic: You're a lucky man. John: I've never had a hangover in my entire life, and I've drunk plenty, believe me. Vic: You're a lucky man. John: Yeah, certainly seems like it. I'm going to thank my German and Scottish heritage. John: But for whatever the reason, I don't get them. So, I'm... but I was waking up in the middle of the... like middle... early morning with a splitting headache. Vic: Mm-hm. John: Like, the headache woke me up. And I didn't realize, because the conference is being held in a town called Prescott. John: Well, as the locals call it, Prescott. There is no "i" in the name, just being clear. But never mind. Vic: Mm-hm. John: So, it's... it is quite literally a mile high. It's higher in altitude than Denver. Not by much, but enough. John: So, it's quite common for people that aren't used to living at that altitude to develop mild altitude sickness, and that's what I had. Vic: Mm-hm. John: So, I felt very... like, when I would get up from seated to standing, I would, you know, feel a little bit dizzy, a bit wobbly on my legs. John: I just wasn't getting enough oxygen through my lungs because of the air pressure. And it's like, right, wow. John: So, when I did my presentation, one of the problems when you're presenting is, funnily enough, you're doing a lot of talking. Vic: Yeah. John: And I'm a walk and talk guy. So, I wander around with a microphone when I'm talking, and I move my arms around. John: And I, like, say, "Hey, yo. Hi." And all this sort of rubbish. And that all takes even more oxygen. Vic: Yeah. John: So, if I was just sitting there, I was okay. But if I was getting up, moving around... So, anyway. John: So, at the end of my hour, at the end of the Q&A session, I nearly collapsed. I quite literally... the wall quite literally caught me. Vic: Mm-hm. John: A couple of people came over to ask if I was okay, and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all right. I'm fine." John: I just... clearly, I need... I need to drink more liquids. And I drank lots of, like, clear water, for the record. John: I mean, as well as other stuff that was not clear, but never mind. But the point is that I drank lots of fluids, and it was not that. Vic: Yeah. John: Anyway, so, apart from that, it went well. I had some very... Vic: It just takes time that you probably didn't have to adjust. John: Yeah, I mean, they say that it can take some people up to two to three months to fully adjust. John: And it's the sort of thing that you go there for a week. It's a whirlwind trip. Vic: Yeah. John: So, you get in, you do your thing, you get out, and you just suck it up. You know, keep popping ibuprofen and the like, you know. Vic: Yep. John: Anyway, so, I'm sorry that I wasn't close enough to come over to visit in Kentucky. John: I really did want to. Unfortunately, just time and funds did not permit. John: But, if anything, they've invited me to come back in the next conference. They do conferences every two years. Vic: Nice. John: So, they've invited me back to speak again in 2026. So, they obviously like me, so that's nice. John: And, yeah. So, right. So, that was Arizona. And I came to America again and had a great time. Vic: Mm-hm. John: It had been five and a bit years since I'd been in the US, and it was lovely to be back. John: So, shame it couldn't have been longer. But anyway, so, there you go. Moving on. John: Right. So, with the Engineer Network related stuff, I have been experimenting more with video. John: So, people that have been following, yeah, it is. It's also a lot of work. Yeah. Vic: Video's cool. Vic: It is. Vic: There's definitely that. John: So, a few months ago, I had a problem with my Tesla Model 3, and I had to put it in for a service to get a wheel bearing joint hub assembly replaced. Vic: Ouch. John: Not under warranty. I'd just be clear on that, which kind of sucked. But anyway, so, yeah. Oh, well. John: Anyway, in the six, five days it was out of action, they loaned me a Tesla Model S 100 dual motor, John: which is ever so slightly faster than my Model 3 Standard Range Plus. John: So, I had a bit of fun with that, I have to say. But I had, as fortune would have it, John: I had only recently, like three or four weeks earlier, invested in a whole bunch of video gear. John: And, you know, it's silly things like the Osmo Mobile 6, so it can, like, you run up the software, it tracks you as you move. John: So, I was able to shoot some pretty decent, you know, footage for the Model S. John: So, I did a review of the Model S, and I compared and contrasted it with the Model 3. John: And I split it across two episodes, because I had nearly a half hour of material, and it was too long for one video. John: So, I split it into two pieces and published that. John: So, those are episodes 11 and 12 of Pragmatic Electric, and you can get that on the website. John: I have my own independent RSS feed, just like I've had for years. John: But I also have it posted on YouTube, if you prefer to look at it on YouTube. John: But anyway, the point is, Pragmatic Electric, I've been doing that now for nearly two years. John: It's not new, but what is new is that I've then outfitted the podcasting booth that I'm talking in right now, John: you know, with video gear. John: So, I've got my Nikon Z6 II, and I've got the widest angle lens that I've got on it. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And I've also installed a green screen, and I'm now experimenting with green screens John: and recording video in the podcasting booth, talking head style. Vic: Talking heads. John: So, talking head style, yeah. John: So, we're going to talk about what I did this initially for, John: but the next thing I made with it is I actually recorded an episode of Causality John: that is a video episode of Causality, and that's the episode of CrowdStrike, which is episode 55. John: Now, it's only gone live to the public today. Vic: Mm-hm. John: Patrons have had it for a little while already, but it's gone public already now. John: And I've had some great, positive, really positive feedback from the patrons that have watched it. John: They love it. John: Though I think that patrons generally will love what you do, generally, Vic: Yeah. John: because that's why they're patrons. Vic: Right. John: What I'm more concerned about is what the rest of the world thinks that aren't patrons. John: You know, they're going to look at this, and they're going to say, "Hmm, I don't know, John. John: I don't want to look at your head talking." John: It's like, "Well, there's an audio version, and you don't have to look at my face. John: Look at it like that." Vic: Mm-hm. John: Anyway, so that video is now live. John: There'll be a link in the show notes. John: If you are a fan of Causality as well, then you can choose. John: You can watch Causality, the podcast, which is episode 55, and that's the audio. John: And the audio, I recorded it independently. John: So I recorded the video first. John: I tried to reuse the audio from the video to create episode 55 of the podcast. John: It did not meet my standards, and so I'm like, "I'm rerecording it." John: And the reason it didn't is because I was using the same microphone at a different gain setting. John: So the near field on the EVRE20 has a very different dynamic range and frequency response John: than it does when you're a little bit further away from it, even if you crank the gain. John: It's not the same. John: So I rerecorded it. John: So I actually recorded the same episode twice. John: But anyway, so yeah, check it out if you are a fan of Causality. John: And what I've done is I've created a separate independent feed on the website, John: but I have incorporated it into YouTube, into the Causality feed, John: because I was already posting, "You know how you can export in Ferrite? John: You can export a video movie of your podcast, and it just takes the still frames from your logo John: and your chapter artwork and creates a video file." John: Well, that's exactly what I have been doing for years now. John: And that's what's in the Causality feed. John: And I get plenty of views. Vic: Yeah. John: So I've got something like 20-something thousand views on a couple of the episodes. John: So it's got decent traction. John: So this one, unlike the others, actually has live video. John: So it's not a video in name only. John: It's actual video with me actually in it. John: So anyway. John: All righty. Oh, yeah, that's it. John: And on the website, I had to call it something. John: And I had this thing where I'm like, "Well, I don't want to call it Causality Live John: because it's not live. John: I didn't want to call it Causality Video because that doesn't sound right." John: The way I got around this with Pragmatic is I called it Pragmatic Electric. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And I recreated the Pragmatic logo using motion, Apple Motion, John: and I created a three-dimensional representation of the logo with the depth perspective, John: and I also created a little animation for the beginning of Pragmatic Electric. John: Now, I want to do the same thing with Causality, John: and once I figured out the name of it, first of all, John: so I'm getting off sidetracked already. John: So I didn't like Causality Video. John: I didn't like Causality Live. John: And I don't know, causality in brackets, John's talking face, Vic: [LAUGH] John: that's not really going to work. John: It's not what you want probably. John: So I called it Causality TV simply because I couldn't come up with something better, John: and it was simple, it was concise, John: and honestly, I'm not even going to refer to it as that. Vic: I think that works, man. John: Yeah, it kind of works. John: I'm not even going to refer to it as that. John: It'll be called Causality TV just because I had to call it something on the website John: because I can't have two separate feeds each called Causality. John: They've got to be separate. Vic: Right. John: So one feed is the unchanged audio feed, John: and the other one will be an independent feed which will be video RSS, John: just like Pragmatic Electric and just like the other show that I've launched a few weeks ago John: that we're going to talk about in this episode. Vic: Mm-hm. John: So it's out there. John: Check it out if you're a fan of causality. John: If you're not a fan of causality, check it out anyway. John: You might become a fan of causality or not. John: Who knows? John: Never mind. Vic: What's generating your thumbnails? Vic: Or not your thumbnails, shit. Vic: Your, mm-mm-mm-mm, the captioning, the captioning. Vic: [LAUGH] John: In the videos, oh, it's auto-generated. Vic: Okay, yeah, because I had your little talking head on mute going just a second ago, John: Yeah, it does that. Vic: just glancing at it while you were talking. Vic: And it got to the part where you introduced yourself and it said, I'm John Chigi, Vic: and it's spelled Chigi, C-H-I-J-I. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: I was like, oh, we got something auto-generated here. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Yeah, no, you got that right. John: I could run it through Mac Whisper which does a far better job Vic: Mm-hm. John: and then go through and edit it and re-upload it, John: but I'm not going to do that. Vic: I would wait and see if the project warrants the time investment first. John: No. John: Yeah, exactly right, and I'm not going to spend the time before I know it's going to be of interest. John: So getting back to the logo for causality, the video edition of it, Vic: Mm-hm. John: what I did with it is I did recreate it in motion, John: and the difference is, and it may not be obvious if you think about it, John: it probably is obvious, if you look at the Pragmatic logo, John: it consists of three elements. John: There's a spanner in the middle or a wrench, you know, John: for the Americans in the audience. John: There's a cog, and there is the word Pragmatic. John: You have essentially got three elements in the entire logo. John: So that was designed originally by Aaron Mankey, of course, of Lore fame, L-O-R-E. John: So that was back when he was running Wet Frog Studio, so he did the logo for me. John: And it is one of the best logos that I've had, but causality is not. John: Causality is made up of a lot of elements because you've got the word causality, John: the six components in the Ishikawa diagram, John: then each of the arrows is not actually an arrow. John: It's an arrow head, it is an arrow body, and it is a circle at the end, John: and that is a compound object. John: So each arrow on each of the fishbone diagram is actually three objects, John: and there's six of them, and then you've got the primary arrow, John: which leads into the word causality. John: Now, I didn't add that up, but it's a hell of a lot more than three, Vic: Yes. John: and I had no end of problems with scale, John: and what I was trying to do was replicate what had been made by-- John: so the graphic designer that briefly did graphic design for me Vic: Mm-hm. John: was a guy called Brian Janvier, a French guy, very talented, John: and he developed this for me after lots of back and forth, John: but the truth was that replicating it, I realized that whilst visually it looked okay, John: I'd gotten used to the imperfections, and some of the letters and words didn't line up, Vic: [LAUGH] John: and the arrows weren't exactly the same angle, Vic: Yeah. John: so it wasn't a mirror from top to bottom. John: So I'm looking at this, and it's offending my sensibilities. John: I'm looking at this, and I'm like, "Hmm, it's not symmetrical. I don't know." Vic: [LAUGH] Yeah. John: And so I'm tweaking it, and I'm retweaking it, and I'm retweaking it. John: I'm like, "I don't like the arrowhead shape. It doesn't quite look right." John: And I spent 20 hours in Apple Motion over a period of probably about six weeks John: just doing that logo, and it got to the end of it. John: And I'm like, "You know what? I need to animate this now, John: and I'll be buggered if I'm going to spend another 20 hours animating all of these things." John: So I decided for the intro for the first episode to just do a Ken Burns effect John: where you start with the logo. Vic: That's what I was gonna say. Vic: What about just a nice subtle pan and zoom? John: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. Vic: [LAUGH] John: It was a very slow Ken Burns-style zoom. John: And I'm like, "You know what? That works for episode one." Vic: Hey. Vic: The Ken Burns is a classic for a reason. John: Yeah, it is surprisingly effective. John: So you know what? That's it. There you go. John: So I wanted to do more, and I wanted to do things like animations and stuff like that, John: but it takes so much time. John: So doing an episode of "Causality," the video version of it, is probably-- John: and this will come as no surprise to anyone who's done video-- John: it's three times the amount of effort, easily, of the audio. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And that's the creation, right? John: That doesn't include any of the development, like the research and show notes. John: That's not included in that calculation. Vic: Yeah. John: This is just production and post-production. Vic: You got your pre-production, you got your production, Vic: you've got your filming, you got your edit, John: Yeah. Vic: you got your post-production. Vic: There's a lot to it, a lot of pieces. John: So once you go through all of that, you realize if the payoff's not worth it, John: I'm not going to be doing a lot of it. Vic: Yeah. John: But anyway, it's okay. It's all good. John: So it's up. Enjoy or not, either way, it's there. John: On the website, back when I started doing "Pragmatic Electric" a few years ago, John: in the top right-hand corner of all of the squares, John: there is an indicator to show you it's an audio podcast, Vic: Mm-hm. John: and there's a little video symbol to indicate that it is a video podcast or a video show. John: Calling something that's video with an RSS feed is not a podcast, John: if that offends your sensibilities. John: Although I'm pretty sure Adam Curry is okay with that John: because you could have video as an enclosure and an RSS feed. John: I think his objection is more around calling YouTube "podcasting" John: because there's no RSS feed, and there isn't, and he's right about that, Vic: Right. Vic: Yeah. John: and it's messed up, which is why I don't just post it on YouTube Vic: Right. John: because I want it to be open, John: and I want people to watch it on whatever platform they want. John: And if anyone ever says, "You know, John, I'm offended by your face, John: and I'm going to report you for having a face," John: I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Vic: Wow. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Look, people-- Seriously, man, people get deplatformed for the dumbest of reasons. John: The hate crowd are like, "You offended my father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate, John: and therefore I will come and hunt you down, and I'm going to deplatform you." Vic: Mm-hm. John: I mean, I have seen the craziest rubbish in this world that we live in, John: so I want to keep it open and freely available, and that is why I do it separately. John: It's an extra step, but I feel good about it, and hopefully other people will-- John: because I know they get downloads because I have it all tracked through IP3, John: and I know that Pragmatic Electric gets a good 20, 30 downloads an episode direct RSS. John: So, you know, not as many as YouTube, but still gets them. Vic: Yeah. John: Anyway. Alrighty. Any other questions on that before we dive into the main topic? Vic: No, I think I'm ready. John: All right. Now, this has unfortunately come at a time for you when you've been taking a break, I believe. Vic: That's not unfortunate. John: Well, okay. You have a wealth of experience in this topic because of your-- because of-- yeah. Vic: I do. John: Yes. And I, in this particular case, am the newbie in the room. I'll be honest with you. I am. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: I do, that is fair to say. John: So I want to tell you this story. I have launched-- Vic: Mm-hm. John: I'm-- well, I'm-- John: Okay. John: Okay. So-- John: Fair enough, then. All right. So what in the hell are we talking about? Vic: [LAUGH] John: Okay. So I-- so I've launched a new show that is called Whiskey Whiskey. John: And oddly enough, the show is about whiskey. Vic: You don't say. John: And I call it whiskey-- I know, right? I would have thunk it with a name like that. John: I thought it was about avocados for a second. John: So, yeah. Whiskey is spelt W-H-I-S-K-Y in some parts of the world, Vic: Mm. John: and there's an E-Y in other parts. Vic: Yeah, but those parts, those parts without the E, they're wrong. John: Okay. So here's the thing. I have-- Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: It just doesn't look right to me. Vic: And I will add that Safari is flagging it with the red line like it needs spelling correct, just for the record. John: Mm-hmm. That's fine with me. Vic: [LAUGH] John: The reason that I called the show Whiskey Whiskey is because I spelled the word-- John: the two different ways that it's spelt, depending on where you are in the world. John: Because it doesn't matter what you call it, it is still awesome. John: So that is the reason that I do that. John: Anyway, you'll only notice that in the spelling, of course, but in any case. John: All right. So why on earth would I do this? John: So a bit of history with me and alcohol, just from the early days. John: So when I first started drinking alcohol, which, you know, was-- John: I was always of legal age, stating that now. Thank you. John: Always, definitely. John: And anyway, I was never into beer. I was never really into wine. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And I started out with the usual sort of fare, and they were things like, you know, rum. John: And I always had a soft spot for some liqueurs, particularly Sambuca, because I love licorice. Vic: Mm. Vic: Yeah. John: People--many people hate licorice with a passion. That's okay. You do you. I love that stuff. John: But I don't have it very often because I've got to be in the right mood. John: Anyway, but then, of course, I also was into bourbon whiskey. John: And I started out with--Jim Beam was my favorite for the longest time. John: I started out with white label, went up to black label when I could afford the--a bit extra for the bottle, John: because it was--it sat a little bit nicer. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And more or less that's all that I would--when I did drink, which wasn't often, really, John: especially--certainly once I got married and had kids, wasn't going out partying very often. John: Not that I was ever really big into that necessarily, but the point is that I went out there John: and I would choose essentially bourbon would be my drink of choice. John: Now, I tried a few, like, blended scotches, but I'd never really given single malts or, like, you know, John: I guess you could call them classier, more refined. John: I'd never tried an Irish whiskey. John: I'd never tried--well, there were no Australian whiskeys at the time. John: I mean, so I was--I had a very limited range. Vic: Really? John: And I did, but, like, as recently as 10, 15 years ago. Vic: No, no, no, I mean, really, no Australian whiskeys back then? John: Not until 30 years ago. Vic: Really? John: No, and they were very niche. Vic: That's interesting. John: Yeah. John: Oh, yeah. Vic: Okay. John: I'll get to that. John: Yeah, I'll get to that. John: And so bottom line was that my--the blended scotches I'd tried, the first one I tried was Johnny Walker Red, John: unsurprisingly, and then the other one was Chivas Regal 12 Year. Vic: Mm. John: And I wasn't a huge fan of either of them at the time, and so I just stuck with bourbon. John: And I progressed onto things like--like I was introduced to Wild Turkey, and I'm like, John: "Oh, that's better than Jim Beam," so I stopped drinking Jim Beam completely. Vic: Most things are better than Jim Beam. Vic: [LAUGH] John: You're not wrong. John: So I switched from that to Wild Turkey, and then I discovered Wild Turkey 101, and that was even better, John: and I drank nothing. Vic: That's the cake and chicken. John: Oh, that is so nice. John: I love that stuff. John: It's beautiful. John: But here's the thing. John: It's not like I drank a lot because I didn't, but the truth is that that was my drink of choice. John: Then I got gifted a bottle of Lavalin 16 Year, which is a peated whiskey, and I tried it, and I'm like, John: "This is just weird. John: I can't drink it," like because I tried drinking it straight because that's what I was told, John: "No, you've got to drink it straight." John: I'm like, "I just didn't like it." Vic: Yeah. John: It was, like, really overpowering, not very pleasant, and then I mixed it with, you know, John: some Coca-Cola to make it more drinkable. John: And the reaction that I got when people had seen me do this was like, "Yeah, you have just murdered that scotch. Vic: I was, ooh, ooh. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: Yes. John: You have killed it. John: It is dead, and we hate you now on principle." John: And I'm like, "What the hell just happened?" Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: Most people are pretty sensible if you throw some ice in it, pour it over ice, but much more than that, and people get pretty offended. John: Yeah, I was quite surprised. John: I was very surprised, but I also tried to shake things up a little bit and tried a Glenfiddich 12, John: which is another single malt, quite a popular one, actually, but they sell millions of bottles of that every year. John: But, you know, again, drinking it straight was just a bridge too far, and I did put ice on it a couple times, John: but honestly, I just couldn't get into it. Vic: Mm-hm. John: Anyway, at an after-work event earlier this year, I forget what it was. John: It wasn't a Lavalin 16. John: It was a different one anyway, and they brought me a scotch, didn't tell me what it was, and I put ice in it, John: and that was enough to offend people. Vic: Yeah. John: And they're like, "All right." John: I'm like, "I am clearly missing something. John: All right, I am 47 now. John: I'm now 48 because I have my birthday in August, but there you go." John: But I was 47 at the time, and I'm like, "You know what? John: Clearly, I'm missing something. John: If all these people are telling me that scotch whiskey is incredible and I should try it and try and understand it John: rather than murdering it all the time, clearly, I'm missing something here." John: So I did some research, and I'm like, "Look, I'm not going to go to a bar and order one of every scotch John: and try them one after the other until I find one I like. John: That's a very expensive proposition, and that's not what I want to do." Vic: And a rough trip home. Vic: [LAUGH] John: And a very rough trip home. John: So I looked into some liquor subscription services, and what they want to do is they want to sell you, like, Vic: Mm-hm. John: a bottle a month, you know, a $100 to $150 bottle every month. John: And I'm like, "I don't have $150 a month to be burning on alcohol that I've never tried." Vic: Ouch. John: And they want to sell you a bottle at the time. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And so I made a promise to myself, "I'm not going to buy a bottle of any alcohol until I have tried it first, John: and I don't think that's unreasonable." Vic: No. John: So all of these whiskey subscription services that I came across, they all had that same flaw, except one of them. John: So this particular one is run by a company in Australia called Liquor Loot. Vic: Mm-hm. John: They used to be called Whiskey Loot, but they changed their name to Liquor Loot because they want to do the same thing John: with whiskey, but they wouldn't do it with gin because there's a big gin distilling... Vic: Mm. John: There's as many gin nuts out there as there are whiskey nuts, so I've learned. Vic: Basically, if there's a type of alcohol or a distilled spirit of any sort, there's a crowd for it. John: Well, I haven't come across Cognac Loot yet, but you never know. Vic: Mm. John: Anyway, moving on. John: So, yes, so I... Vic: The vodka people are an interesting breed. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Mmm, just give me the gray goose, mate. John: So that stuff is smooth, I was going to say, but never mind. Vic: Okay. John: All right. John: So this subscription service, and I cover this in episode three of "Whiskey, Whiskey," John: they send you this little sample box, and there's 60 mils in each box, which is two standards, essentially, Vic: Mm-hm. John: in each of these little glass bottles. John: And you get three bottles a month, and it's a selection of what they think you might like. John: And they travel around the world, like, "Oh, we're going to do Scotch whiskeys. John: Oh, okay, we're going to do Irish whiskeys. John: Okay, we're going to do single grains. John: We're going to do single mils. John: We're going to do, like, whatever." John: And they send you these, and you try them, and they have tasting videos and tasting notes, John: and it's really nicely done. John: And so the first one of these, and I got a six-month subscription of it because it was a good deal, John: and I'm like, "I am going to try and understand whiskey. John: I am going to try." John: Okay? John: And the very first box, they had a McCallan 12, 12-year sherry oak. John: Now, this thing was so damn good. Vic: Yeah. John: It was just delightful. John: And honestly, I love that stuff so much that I actually bought myself a bottle. John: And it's not cheap, necessarily. Vic: Mm-hm. John: That's my special occasion, you know, Scotch. John: And so I started learning more about all the different things I didn't know about whiskey at that point. John: So that's why I started making Whiskey Whiskey is because I'm like, "Right, everything that I've learned, John: I want to do an episode where I, like, I'll sample one, give my thoughts and impressions on it, John: and talk about one aspect of it." John: And it's going to depend on each episode and what that is. John: You know, like I've covered things like the different kinds of whiskeys, you know, like single blend, single malt, John: all that stuff. John: We'll get to that. John: I've covered things like in the episodes to date about changes to our palate. John: Because the things that--why did I not understand this stuff until I got a bit older, John: until I could appreciate it? John: It's like, well, taste buds in your mouth start to deteriorate as you get older, John: which means that different flavor profiles that you used to not like now become more palatable. Vic: Mm-hm. John: So it's an age thing, which is why I've also been able to get into wine more recently as well. John: It's like because my palate's changing. John: So I'm learning more about what my palate is like now. John: And I'm actually eating foods these days that I didn't eat or wouldn't eat 10, 15 years ago. John: It's just because my tastes are changing. John: It's a real thing. Vic: Mm-hm. John: It's a scientific fact. John: It's just something that I never really bothered exploring until recently. John: So one of the other things that I was encouraged to do as I found out, John: I came across an Australian YouTuber, whiskey tuber, they call them, or some call them, John: a guy called The Whiskey Scribe. John: And he encouraged people watching his videos to join a whiskey club John: because whiskey clubs are a good way, an economical way of trying whiskeys. John: And I'm like, oh, that's a really good idea because you pay like $60, $65 a month to go as a guest, Vic: Mm-hm. John: and that gives you either six or seven that you can try. Vic: Right. John: And there's no way you could go to any bar, no matter where you went, Vic: I was gonna say, for some of the things I'm sure you'll be trying, that's a relatively inexpensive shot. John: and get those whiskeys for that amount of money. John: It's like half what that would cost or a third depending upon. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Mm-hmm. John: So I joined a whiskey club, and I went to the first meeting just on Wednesday, John: literally Wednesday, just gone. John: So we're recording this on a Saturday, so literally four days ago. John: And it was incredible, actually. John: It was really, really fun. John: And it was a Japanese night, so we covered-- Vic: Mm-hm. John: and they call them--it's all, of course, Scottish names because it's all focused on Scotch whiskey, John: but they also do other whiskeys from around the world, thankfully. John: But still, anyway, so they call the club, except each of the different groups. John: Anyway, so this particular one was in North Brisbane. John: There's a whole bunch of them, actually, in North Brisbane, but it doesn't matter. John: This particular one, anyway. John: So I went to that, and now a Japanese tasting night. John: So I can now say I have tried my first ever $1,000 whiskey. John: It was all right. John: I'm not buying it because that's a lot of money. Vic: That's a lot of money. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: That's a lot of money. John: But it was nice. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: I'm sure it was. John: It was nice. Vic: [LAUGH] John: It was nice, but not $1,000 nice. John: And I also tried a very rare single blend, which is one of those ones that they say, John: "Oh, what? Single blend? There's no such thing." John: But, yeah, there is, and it was like a Kirin Fuji single blend whiskey, non-age statement. John: But, yeah, and it was absolutely delightful. John: And I would buy that, and that's only $110 Australian, so that's far more affordable. John: But I have not bought one yet. John: Maybe someday we'll see. John: All right. John: So before I get too down the rabbit hole here, I want to just talk about what I learned about enjoying whiskey properly. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And you probably--I'm not sure how much of this is Scotch culture or how much of this is in bourbon culture, John: but do you know what a Glencan glass is? Vic: No, you're speaking too fancy for me. John: Okay. John: So 20 years ago, there was a company called Glencan, which is G-L-E-N-C-A-I-R-N, pronounced Glencan. John: And they produced a glass design that has become the standard as a nosing glass for drinking whiskeys. John: And what it does is it has--essentially, the bottom of the glass is sort of like-- John: it has bulges at the bottom and it's a solid bit of glass at the bottom, and that's the base. John: And then it has a little bit of an onionish sort of a shape at the bottom, John: and then it kind of looks a little bit like a champagne flute, but it's not as narrow. Vic: Mm-hm. John: So it's got a wider bottom, and it comes up to a smaller opening at the top. John: And when you actually--yeah, a little bit like a stemless wine glass, exactly. Vic: Kind of like a stemless wine glass. John: It's designed specifically for smelling or nosing, as they like to say in the biz, nosing whiskey. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And it really does make quite a difference. John: And just to stay in theme for this episode, right now in my Glencan glass, I have some 12-year Chivas Regal. Vic: Nice. John: So there you go. John: Yes, it is lovely, actually. John: I prefer the 18, but then it's three times the price, so I don't prefer it that much right now. Vic: [LAUGH] John: But yes, so the Chivas 12 is fine. John: It's the Johnny Walker Red of Chivas, but that's okay. John: Anyway, so there's all these different glass types. John: The traditional whiskey glass, it's okay, which is, you know, just essentially it's a cylinder. Vic: Mm-hm. John: It's not tapered in any way, really, and it's a very straightforward glass. John: And it's fine, and you'll get a decent aroma from it. John: It's just nosing glasses like the Glencan, for example, are quite popular. John: You can get another variant also made by Glencan that does have a stem, John: but it's a much shorter stem than you'd get on a wine glass. John: And it's designed that you hold the stem so that you don't warm up the whiskey with your heat from your hand. John: But some people don't like them. John: They call them the Kopita glass. John: The problem with the Kopita glass is that they don't feel as stable as a Glencan glass John: because they don't have the base on them. John: It's not as solid, but still. John: Anyway, whatever. John: So that's the smelling bit. John: So the second thing is, of course, the tasting bit, John: and that's where I'd gone wrong a lot in the past is I just would chug it, rinse it around the mouth, and swallow it. Vic: [LAUGH] John: And it's like... John: That's not how you're supposed to drink it, John. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hm. John: How would you drink--when you're trying to savor the taste of a bourbon, how would you drink it? John: Mm. John: Mm-hmm. John: Yep. John: Mm-hmm. John: Well, see, I've got to state for the record, though, John: and I hope you got this vibe from that particular episode of Whiskey Whiskey is John: I do think it is a little bit pretentious, some of the terminology. John: It's a little bit, you know? John: Mm. John: Mm-hmm. John: Mm. John: Yeah, okay, I take that. John: Well, okay, I take that point. John: I guess what I mean is that maybe the pretentiousness is the people in the whiskey space that are like, John: "Okay, well, I'm going to--now we're going to see." Vic: >> Well, let's just call it what it is. John: Yeah. Vic: There's some downright snobs out there. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Oh, this is the thing, as I've learned very quickly. John: And going around at the whiskey club, you could pick out the ones that were really the more snobbish, John: but thankfully the majority of people at the club were super laid back, very friendly, very open about it, John: and they were just honest about how they believed that it tasted and where it ranked when we were scoring them. Vic: Yeah. John: And, you know, it's like--so to me, the people that are like, "Oh, no, you've got to call that the palate. John: You know, you can't call it--this is how it tastes." Vic: Mm-hm. John: I was like, "Yeah, okay, sure." John: And this is the finish. John: It's like, "Well, that's the aftertaste." John: So you've got the taste and the aftertaste. John: "Yeah, but finish is one word." John: I'm like, "Oh, my God. It doesn't matter. You know what I'm talking about. John: It's potato, potato, surely." John: Anyway, all right. John: So when I taste a scotch or a whiskey now--and I've got to be careful calling it scotch because scotch is just whiskey. John: It's just that it's made in Scotland. John: So that's it, the only difference. John: But, yeah, so--well, not the only difference, but that's the main reason you call it scotch, but it doesn't matter. John: So any whiskey now is--I will take, as you said, a small sip, and I will let that sit solely on my tongue for at least one or two seconds. Vic: Yep. John: And then what I--it's like the saliva in your mouth will start to dilute that a little bit, John: and that's when I start washing that around my mouth, and then I'll swallow it after a few more seconds. Vic: Mm-hm. John: And the idea of that is to let it cross all of the parts of your tongue because, you know, John: it's like going back to your taste sensors and receptors on your tongue, like you get a different part of the tongue, John: the forward, the side, and different sides and the back, but for salty, for sweet, for, you know, bitter, Vic: Mm-hm. John: it's like it's all the different parts of the tongue. John: So you've got to wash that over your tongue. John: And if you don't dilute it a little bit because it's got to be at least 40% alcohol by volume, it's going to burn a little bit. Vic: Yeah. John: And you'd be surprised. John: And I find just letting it sit on my tongue for a couple of seconds is all it takes, and it just--it changes the whole experience, John: whereas previously I hadn't done that, and I'm--yeah. Vic: Well, it's point blank, it's at the risk of sounding pretentious. Vic: If you really want to experience all the flavor notes, Vic: and if you want to experience the notes, Vic: and you want to distinguish what makes Wild Turkey better than Jim Beam, Vic: or any other as far up the scale as you want to go, Vic: you want to experience what makes these things different, Vic: and what sets them apart. Vic: That's the only way. John: I'll tell you a true story about the wild turkey. Vic: Mm-hm. John: I had been drinking that stuff with mixes not neat and not on the rocks, just I'd been mixing it, John: and I'd loved the hell out of that stuff, just mixed. John: It was just incredible, so nice. John: And then once I learned how to taste it properly, I went back and I retried it neat, Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hm. John: now that I could actually savor it and pick out the vanilla and I could pick out the different notes in it. Vic: Right. John: And I'm like, "Damn, [bleep] good." John: [laughs] Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: Yeah. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: And that's not to say-- John: And-- Vic: I mean, there's definitely a place for a good bourbon and Coke, Vic: or a scotch and Coke. Vic: There's nothing wrong with that. Vic: But there's a certain class of these drinks Vic: that you've invested enough money in them Vic: that you want to experience them as they are. Vic: And it does feel kind of wrong to dump it into a glass of soda, Vic: or whatever, or God forbid, some people add water. Vic: [LAUGH] John: Yeah, no. Vic: Yeah. John: No, I've reached a point where I can't abide that either, but in any case. John: So, yeah, so there you go. John: Anyway, so--sidetracked there, but anyway, moving back. John: Okay, so the finish is the aftertaste, like I said. John: That's what--and I find the most bizarre thing that I've learned is actually finish, Vic: Mm-hm. John: because I can rank whiskeys that I've tried now by the duration of their finish, John: and it's like sometimes, like you'll drink something-- John: like this Chevus 12 Year that I'm very slowly sipping from time to time as we're talking, John: it has a very short finish. John: Like it'll be gone--like the flavor of it is gone in probably 10 seconds after I've swallowed it, John: and it's like--I'm like--I mean I'm aware that I've had some whiskey, John: but I couldn't tell you what it was 10 seconds after I'd had it because there's no lingering anything. John: It's not a bad thing. John: It's just like what I've learned is that a longer finish is generally a sign of a more complex whiskey, John: something that's generally aged longer or in a variety of different kinds of barrels. John: So it's kind of like my McAllen 12 Year Sherry Oak, for example. John: That has got a finish that goes on for minutes afterwards, Vic: Nice. John: and it is so delightful that you're like--you're breathing--as you're breathing in and out John: for those few minutes after you've had it, I'm like--I can still smell the McAllen on my breath, Vic: Mm-hm. John: whereas this, I can't smell the Chevus on my breath. John: I can't taste it anymore after like 10 seconds. John: It's gone, and it's fascinating to me because to me it almost is inexplicable, John: but it is a genuine difference, and so the finish is a big deal I think often overlooked. John: Another funny one is legs, and I'm like when they said legs--yeah. Vic: Yeah, that's actually-- Vic: I'd never learned about that at all until I watched your episode. Vic: That was pretty interesting to me. John: Yeah, it is interesting because it's like it's got to do with two factors. John: The first factor is the viscosity of the liquid, and the second one is the amount of oil content, Vic: Mm-hm. John: so if you've got a high viscosity whiskey and it also has a decent oil content, John: you'll get big, thick, slow-running legs. John: If you've got--sorry, you'll get lots of little narrow legs. John: If you've got a low viscosity one and it's got a high oil content, John: you'll get much wider, thicker, slow-running legs on it. John: So it's a really--it's kind of the poor man's way of telling whether or not it's an oily whiskey essentially John: because they do chill filter a lot of these to get rid of some of the artifacts you'll get John: and cloudiness at lower--when it gets to lower temperatures, John: which will get rid of a lot of the natural oils in it. John: So it's also a sign of whether it's chill filtered or not. John: It's not definitive, but it gives you a bit of an idea. John: So I mean, just looking at this now, I know you can't see me doing it, John: but the Chivas 12 actually does have some nice, slow-moving legs. John: They're not super thick, though, but still not as nice as a Chivas 18. John: And you can tell--I can tell the difference now. John: If you tell me they're both Chivas just from the legs, I can tell you which is which. John: But now I'm getting to be a bit of a snob on that already. John: It's only been three months, but never mind. Vic: [LAUGH] It happens. John: All right. John: I know, right? John: The last one is color. Vic: Mm-hm. John: The thing about color is they rank the color, and I've learned real fast you can't trust color. Vic: No. John: You may as well not even look at it because people add color to their damn whiskey John: to make it look darker because darkness is a sign of supposedly quality, right? Vic: Yeah. John: I mean, is that--do you have that in bourbon as well? Vic: I think so, yeah. Vic: I haven't had the opportunity to mingle with many connoisseurs, so to speak. Vic: But yeah, I think a lot of people put a lot of stock in the color of it. Vic: And a lot of people mistakenly assume that it also is a statement of age, too. Vic: They just generally assume that the darker it is, the more it's been aged, or the better it was aged. John: Yeah, exactly right. John: I mean, what I've learned is that people will add coloring. John: Generally, E150A, I think, to whiskeys for legitimate reasons and illegitimate reasons. Vic: Mm-hm. Vic: Yeah. John: So an example of a legitimate reason is let's say, like, one of my favorite whiskeys is an Irish whiskey called-- John: but made by Bushmills. Vic: Mm-hm. John: Now, let's just say you're Bushmills, and you have got 1,000 barrels. John: They were all, you know, distilled and barreled, same amount of time, same everything, John: but four or five of the barrels had a slightly different char or a slightly different history, John: and therefore the color of the whiskey that came out of them was much lighter than every other barrel. John: Now, you chuck all this in a vat, and you compare this to last year's bottling, John: and the color's not quite right, and you want to have a consistent product. Vic: Yeah. John: So you add a teeny bit of coloring to make sure that the color matches Vic: Mm-hm. John: because you want to put out a consistent product. John: And so that's a legitimate use of a coloring agent. John: An illegitimate use is Dodgy Brothers down the back. John: They made some whiskey, and they're like, "This stuff is effectively clear. Vic: [LAUGH] John: It has been aged for three minutes." Vic: Because it just came off. Vic: I was fixing to say, because it just came out of the still a few months ago. John: [laughter] Vic: [LAUGH] John: Yeah. John: So I'm going to add a whole bunch of this coloring, and I'm going to sell it as a 12-year. Vic: [LAUGH] John: I'm just like, "That is an example of an illegitimate use of color." John: So what it's taught me real quick, Vic-- Vic: Boy, is that an entirely different drinking experience. John: Yes, it is. It is. John: So it's like what I've learned is color doesn't tell you anything. John: Anyway, all right. John: So that's appreciating a whiskey, and I think we should now talk about how on earth you make whiskey. John: And I don't know. Do you want to kick this one off? I've talked a lot. Vic: Well, first you're going to need a lot of corn. John: For a bourbon, I would agree. Yes. Yes. Yep. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: Yeah, yeah. John: Let's talk bourbons. Vic: You need some grain, and you need some water, and you need some yeast. John: Mm-hmm. Vic: And then you can also throw some kick-- Vic: if you want to kickstart the process and boost your alcohol content a little bit, Vic: you can add in some sugar. Vic: A lot of people add things like amylase, which is an enzyme, Vic: which I use it in my doughs to-- like a bread that's really soft Vic: and stays soft longer. Vic: More like-- I don't know if you've ever done much home baking of bread, Vic: but if you ever bake a loaf of bread at home, Vic: you'll notice right off the bat that while it is really good Vic: and it maintains its flavor, its shelf life for softness Vic: compared to store-bought breads is about a day and a half. John: Yes. John: Mm. Yep. That's true. Yeah, you're right. Vic: [LAUGH] Vic: But you can put amylase in it, and that extends that shelf life Vic: of your home-baked bread to make it stay softer longer. Vic: And it's a digestive enzyme that helps yeast to break down starches John: Cool. Vic: into sugars that are more digestible for the yeast, Vic: which they can then convert to the alcohol. Vic: So you can put stuff like that in there too. John: Mm-hmm. Vic: And basically you're going to heat this stuff up to around, typically, Vic: 80 to 100 degrees, maybe a little above that, not a lot. Vic: You just want it to be warm to the touch, just to activate the yeast. Vic: But you don't want it too hot to kill the yeast. Vic: But it has to be warm or the yeast won't activate for your fermentation. Vic: That's why areas like Appalachia and in the States and stuff like that-- Vic: and I'm going to imagine you've got plenty of areas in Australia too Vic: that would be good for this. Vic: Nice, warm, humid climates are the best for fermenting your mash. Vic: But you put all this into whatever kind of bins you're mashing into. Vic: And this is called the mash. I've jumped ahead of the game there. Vic: But this is called the mash. John: That's right. No, that's fine. Vic: And basically you're just going to let that sit. Vic: And you're going to let that yeast do its job, and it's going to ferment, Vic: and it's going to basically break down all the starches and sugars Vic: and convert them into alcohol. John: Mm-hmm. Vic: And at that point you have what they would call-- Vic: well, they call it beer, but it is beer. Vic: It's essentially beer. It's just uncarbonated because it wasn't bottled. John: Yeah. Vic: If you bottle it, then the fermentation produces the CO2 that carbonates it. John: Yep. Vic: Unlike sodas--a lot of people don't know this, Vic: but anybody that's really into it knows this-- Vic: but beers, they don't add carbonation like they do soda. Vic: It gets its carbonation from the fermentation process. Vic: So when your mash is ready to run, it's essentially a beer or a wine Vic: if you've made it from fruit. Vic: But with grains, they tend to just call it a beer. Vic: And then it's ready to run through the still. Vic: You want me to keep going, or you want to hop in? [laughs] John: All right. So before we get to stills, yeah. John: So before we get on to stills then, so we've now created ourselves our mash, Vic: Yes. John: and it's fermented, and we're ready to then put in the still. John: So for bourbons, there's rules. John: There's lots of rules. Vic: [laughs] Yeah. And people are picky about them too. John: Yeah. John: There's... Oh, yeah, not wrong. Vic: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John: So, for example, with bourbons, you have to have at least 51% corn, John: and then you can add anything else you like after that. John: I think there's very few restrictions. John: Like, a lot of them will throw a bit of rye in there, sometimes wheat, John: but, yeah, different grains, as you said. Vic: Occasionally some barley. Yeah. John: Yeah, and occasionally barley. Absolutely right, yes. Vic: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John: So when it comes to Irish whiskeys, though, they have a different set of rules. John: So Irish whiskeys, they can't have more than 30% of malted barley John: and 30% of unmalted barley in them. John: The rest can be whatever they want. John: And so one of the things that I haven't--I've got all the notes down for this, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: but I haven't actually really recorded this episode yet, but we'll be covering it. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: I'll be covering it specifically, it being malted and unbalted barley, John: because I'm like, "What the hell's the difference between malted and unbalted barley?" John: It's like, so unmalted barley is just harvested barley, you know, John: but malted barley is when essentially you put it in an environment Vic: Yep. It's germinated, and it's just barely started to sprout. John: where it starts to want to sprout and germinate, like, yeah. John: Yeah, and that's at the point where you want to absolutely put the brakes on it and stop, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and then you want to dry that stuff out, John: and that's what you want to then put in your mash, and that's malted barley. John: And the reason they do that is to change the--because that actual sprouting process John: will improve the amount of essentially--I think it's--I'm trying to remember if it's starches. John: I think it's starches. John: The content of it will change, and it'll produce much more alcohol for the same amount. John: And so--and there's certain strains of barley, like there's three-row, six-row, Vic: Mm-hmm. [laughs] John: whatever different barleys that they use. John: But in any case, Irish whiskeys, they had a whole bunch of, like, Mother England, John: you know what I mean? John: Like, as an American, you can look back at history and see how the Americans dealt with the British. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Well, yeah, Irish got taxed, like, because the British just said, "You know, we like money." John: Yeah, you don't say. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Anyway, and so they started taxing malted barley. John: And so the Irish are like, "Yeah, no worries. Okay. John: We'll keep it under 30%, and we'll avoid the majority of the tax, John: so we'll just use unmalted barley. John: You know, we'll show you," like whatever. John: And so that became their signature. John: And so that's how Irish whiskeys have been made ever since. John: And you can blame the British for that. John: But I don't mind an Irish whiskey, because that's all good. John: I don't mind that at all. John: So another one of the things that's weird about bourbons is the casks have got to be virgin oak, John: virgin white American oak as well. Vic: Just logistics. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] John: They don't have to be American oak, but, I mean, honestly, they are, John: funnily enough, they're made in America, so that makes sense. John: Yeah, logistically, yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So obviously. John: When it comes to Scotch whiskeys, getting back to barley, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: there's a whole bunch of different barleys that they use. John: And there's, like, barleys, there's so many strains, it's ridiculous. John: The first episode of Whiskey, Whiskey, I talked a little bit about this. John: I'm going to do more in a future episode. John: Macallan are famous for using a barley strain called Golden Promise. John: And they use--okay. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Mash bills are a very closely guarded trade secret. John: A lot of companies will say, "Oh, yeah, we put in 72% this, 12% that, whatever, whatever." Vic: Right. John: Yeah, but they don't tell you the whole truth. John: It's like, "Well, yeah, we use 70% of, you know, malted barley, John: but I'm not going to tell you what malted barley, John: and that 72% might be 20% Golden Promise or 20% some other variety that is common as mud." Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Right. Yeah. John: But they're not going to tell you that because that's a trade secret. John: And fair enough, right? Vic: Well, and these are the things that make a difference in the final output product. John: It's a business. I understand that. John: Exactly. Vic: And if you don't want anybody making your stuff, Vic: then these are the parts that you've got to keep secret. John: Golden Promise has a problem for--just about Macallan for a second-- John: is the problem with it is that it's not very high yield. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So it was developed in the '60s, and they used gamma irradiation John: to develop this particular strain of barley. John: And anyway, they produced it for a long time, and it was a very high percentage, 60%, 70%, John: according to legend anyway. John: I don't know how much of this is true, but that's just what I've read. John: And those versions of Macallan are what built the Macallan reputation. John: So the problem, though, is because it was low yield. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So better varieties come out. John: They've got high yields. It's more economical. John: They reduce the amount of Golden Promise. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So people say today's Macallans are not as good as the ones from 30 years ago, John: solely because of this. John: It's probably other reasons, but in any case. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So the type of grains used, the proportions of grains used all affect-- Vic: Yeah. John: they are your mash bill, and they will affect how the whiskey will ultimately taste. John: But it's only the distillate. John: It's not barrel influence. John: But okay, we've got to talk about stills now. Vic: Oh, boy. [laughs] John: So there's two primary kinds of stills, and I know that there's hybrids, Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and I know that there's combinations, and I know that there's different styles within styles. John: But basically they fall into two categories, a batch style of pot stills, John: and then you've got a continuous style like a column still. John: You want to tackle one? Which one do you want to tackle? Vic: I like the pot stills. [laughs] John: And I'll tackle the other one. John: Okay. Go for it. Vic: Those are kind of near and dear to my heart. [laughs] Vic: A pot still is basically-- John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Vic: This is what comes to mind. Vic: I mean, you could fancy it up, and you can get these that look pretty fancy. Vic: But when you think the term "moonshine" Vic: and all the American stereotypes of an overall wearing hillbilly out in the woods Vic: with this big chunk of copper that's been rolled into kind of like a cylinder, Vic: and then it tapers to a cone at the top, Vic: and it comes out of a cap and goes through a curly Q line Vic: into what's called a doubler, Vic: and then through another curly Q line into what's called the worm, Vic: which is basically a condenser coil, Vic: which is an even more curly Q worm dipped in some ice and some water, Vic: usually just cold water. Vic: Ice is a luxury they didn't have in the woods. Vic: But what you typically think of when you think of moonshine still is a pot still. Vic: And it's basically--it's essentially just a pot of your mash heated Vic: so that it evaporates and the steam runs through the series of tubes Vic: throughout the rest of the distillation process. John: Yeah. So basically a pot still's problem is that you put your fermented mash in there, John: you cap it off, you fire it up at the heat, and you can only do a batch at a time. John: So you'll distill it for a bit, you'll cool down all your condensate, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: which is your alcohol and the other phenols and esters and so on and so forth John: to create what they'll call the new make. John: That particular part of it, it's like you've got to stop when you're done, John: once you've got it all, and then you clean it all out and start again with a fresh batch. John: So it's batch distillation. John: Feedstock goes in, you do the process, clean it out, start again. John: So it's much more labor-intensive in that regard. John: And then column stills, on the other hand, are different. John: They can be run continuously, and it's an ingenious design, I have to admit. John: It was originally pioneered by a Scotsman called Robert Stein, John: but his design had its issues, and the design was refined by an Irishman called, John: I think it's pronounced Aeneas Coffee, leading to what's commonly referred to as the coffee still, John: but not coffee as in the black coffee that you drink as in C-O-F-F-E-E, John: that's not--no, it's coffee with an E-Y, so C-O-F-F-E-Y. John: So that's a coffee still named after this Irishman. John: Now, a lot of the designs that have come from this are all derivatives of his design. John: So what is it? John: It's like, first of all, a column still is a vertical column, essentially. John: It has a series of horizontal plates as you go up the column, John: and that effectively makes the tower--you can think of it as a series of mini pot stills John: stacked one on top of the other. John: I mean, they are, but they aren't, but that's one way to think about it. Vic: It goes--I think an easy way to explain it without the visual is that like-- John: MASH? John: Hmm. Vic: so as it goes up through these series of chambers, Vic: each one essentially becomes its own distillation process Vic: so that as you get higher and higher up the stack, Vic: it's getting more and more purified with each chamber as it goes up that stack. John: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, actually. John: Good. John: That's pretty good. John: So the MASH actually enters cold, obviously, because it's, well, cold, John: and the top of the still, and that just sinks to the bottom John: because, you know, cold things sink and warm things rise, John: and the bottom's continuously heated, usually through steam injection, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and as the steam rises, it interacts with that falling MASH, John: and each of those plates, as you said, successively, as you go up the column, John: the vapors become more and more purified. John: So I'll put a diagram in the chapter artwork to help explain it. John: It's not straightforward, but a modern continuous column still John: was still based on the coffee design. John: So the trick with these is keeping the feed of the feedstock, John: what they call the MASH, the feedstock in industrial terms, John: and you've got to keep pulling out the distillate, John: and it's very efficient because it never has to turn off. John: Technically, you just keep supplying it with steam, John: you keep supplying it with feedstock, and you keep pulling out the distillate. John: You just keep on rolling, and that's how companies like Jim Beam, John: Wild Turkey, Jack Daniels, they are able to produce massive quantities John: because it never has to stop for a clean. John: It never has to. Vic: Yeah. John: Yeah, and the funny thing, though, is people-- Vic: That whole batching process of the pot still really slows things down. John: with column stills, they tend to produce a lighter whiskey. John: It obviously depends on the height. John: I say obviously, but the higher the column is, then theoretically, John: the more refined it will be, which means that by the time you get to the top, John: there'll be less and less of the non-alcohol contents in the vapors John: that condense. John: So ultimately, you get to a point where you're not carrying over Vic: Mm-hmm. John: some of the bits that people are like, "Oh, but that's not alcohol. John: I don't want that." John: Yeah, but some of it you do because some of that's actually the flavor John: that goes into the distillate, and you'll lose it if you're not careful. John: And this is where the art comes into it, I think, a bit. John: So it's like the design, the shape, the height, all these things affect John: the quality and the taste of that new make in that distillate John: that you then eventually will age. John: So in any case, yeah, all right, enough about stills. John: There you go. John: And that will kick up the alcohol content considerably. John: And with continuous distillation, you can generally push really high ABVs, John: like up to 95%, which you're not allowed to do for bourbon, for example. Vic: Yeah. John: But you can design a column still to not produce that. John: It's all in the diameter and the height and, of course, how hot you make it. Vic: Well, you can actually produce it at that eye of a proof. Vic: You're going to have to temper it down before you bottle it. Vic: Or actually, I think before you barrel it, maybe. John: Yeah, I guess that's true. Vic: Yeah, yeah. John: Yeah, it can't be barreled at more than 160 proof, I think, Vic: Right, yeah. John: is the rules for bourbon. John: Yeah, yeah. John: All right. John: Now, I am still researching first cut and second cut, John: so I'm leaning on Vic for this one. Vic: Oh! John: I know, I haven't got to this-- John: Hey, man, I'm on a journey. John: I have learned a lot, but I still have a lot to learn. Vic: All right. John: So first cut, second cut. Vic: Well, again, you're going with the fancy terms. John: Oh, good. Vic: Fortunately, I do know these fancy terms. Vic: But they're also known as the heads, tails, and hearts. John: That's good. John: Good, good, good. Vic: Your first cut is the heads. John: Got it. John: [AUDIO OUT] Vic: And this is basically -- this is the first little bit that runs -- Vic: actually, I'd be curious to know how this works in these continuous-running column stills, Vic: because that's a whole different ballgame. Vic: But anyway, in a pot still, this is what my knowledge is based around. Vic: Your first cut is basically the first bit that comes out of your still. Vic: I wouldn't necessarily call it toxic, but it's a different kind of alcohol, Vic: primarily what's called methanol. Vic: And this is the stuff that can -- an alcohol with a really high methanol count can -- Vic: this is the stuff that's going to -- I don't care how immune you think you are to hangovers, Vic: this is the stuff that's going to kick your ass. John: [ Laughter ] Vic: It just -- it affects our bodies differently. John: [ Silence ] ------------------------------fd0fd6fcd2f-- Vic: We process it differently. Vic: We break it down differently. Vic: So basically you want to let that run. Vic: And it's basically -- it does go into the flavor profile. Vic: So it's not an exact science. Vic: You can't say roughly exactly, you know, the first 15% has just got to get tossed. Vic: But essentially it's a percentage by volume of, you know, however much your mash is. Vic: And then there's some variance on that percentage just based on the flavor profile of your mash Vic: and based on the flavor profile you want in the output. Vic: But essentially you're going to take that first, Vic: and that first cut is after you're relatively confident that all of the methanol Vic: and stuff like that that we don't really want to drink has came through the still Vic: because they evaporate out of the mash at a much lower temp. Vic: So they come out first just by nature, just by the process. Vic: And then after that, when you're pretty confident that all of that stuff has run out, Vic: you take that stuff, and it's also called cast off because you literally just cast it off. Vic: You dump it. Vic: If you're in the woods, you just chuck it off to the side. Vic: I'm sure in the industrial they have something they have to do with it to properly dispose of it. Vic: I don't think they can just dump it in the drain. Vic: But you basically -- it's called the heads, and you just get rid of it. Vic: You don't really use it for much of anything. Vic: And then you get into what they call the hearts, which is in the middle of the run. Vic: And this is where the primary bulk of your alcohol content is going to come from Vic: in your final output is in the hearts. Vic: And then as you start to get toward the end of the run, Vic: then it's coming out of the still a little less pure alcohol, Vic: a little more of the mash that went in, and not literally the grains and stuff, Vic: but it's just the alcohol content is getting lower, Vic: and you're starting to get more flavor profile from the ingredients that first went into the mash. Vic: And you want some of that in there because it's definitely going to affect your final product. Vic: But the more of it that you let in, the lower your proof in your alcohol. Vic: And if you go too far, then you can just really make it taste bad Vic: because once you start getting to a certain point, then you start getting to -- Vic: like in the case of a pot still, if you haven't very carefully regulated your heat, Vic: all those grains and stuff have settled into the bottom of the pot, Vic: and they're literally scorching down there, Vic: so you can start introducing some nasty flavor side effects from that as well. Vic: So then you make your second cut, which is called the tails. Vic: And basically all of that is going to be discarded as well, Vic: but it is actually reusable to an extent, Vic: and a lot of whiskeys and manufacturers do do this. Vic: But essentially you want to stop harvesting that into your run. Vic: So then you've got your first cut with your heads, you've discarded that, Vic: you've got a bunch of the hearts, and you've got some of the tails but not all the tails. Vic: And then you take this and you mix it all together, Vic: and you create the flavor profile that you want, Vic: and then you start moving it to go barrel it and age it or whatever, Vic: or if you're just drinking moonshine, then you've got moonshine ready to bottle up and sell. Vic: Side note, I don't know what the technical term is for the stuff that comes out of the still. Vic: I don't care what it is, what you're making, I just call it moonshine because that's all I know. Vic: [laughs] Vic: And I'm sure you could probably educate me on that in a minute. Vic: New make. Vic: That's a good term. Okay. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Yep. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Yep. Vic: Yep. Vic: Okay, wait, I have one last thing to add. Vic: So those tails, I mentioned you could save them and they have some reuse purposes. Vic: A lot of companies do this, and this is kind of like what you were talking about with the coloring stuff. Vic: It's about consistency of product from batch to batch. Vic: You can take those remaining tails, and a lot of people will use it to kickstart their next mash batch. Vic: So it can kickstart that, and it can also help with the consistency from run to run, Vic: making sure that, you know, your stuff comes out relatively the same. Vic: At least in the moonshine and bourbon worlds. Vic: I don't know if it's a factor in the others. Vic: Right. Vic: No, they just call it whiskey. [laughs] Vic: Right. Right. Vic: All bourbons are whiskey, but all whiskeys aren't bourbon. Vic: Yes. Vic: Hmm. Vic: Right. Vic: Hmm. Vic: That's interesting. I didn't know that. Vic: Now, I have a question. Vic: You may or may not be able to answer this. Vic: So, much like what you just said with scotch, part of the thing about bourbon, Vic: and a lot of this is just technical legality and tradition, Vic: but to sell a whiskey in the U.S. and call it a bourbon, it has to have been made here. Vic: But there are people recreating the bourbon process all over the world Vic: and selling it all over the world and call it bourbon, Vic: even though we in the States would consider that a blasphemous abomination, Vic: and it's not bourbon. It's just whiskey. [laughs] Vic: Is that happening with scotch and Irish-type whiskeys and stuff as well? Vic: Okay. Vic: Hmm. Vic: Right. Vic: Yeah. Vic: [laughs] Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: [laughs] Vic: Right. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Nice. Vic: Nice. Vic: Right. Vic: The scotch whiskey mob. [laughs] Vic: [laughs] Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: There can be only one. Vic: [laughs] Vic: Some of 'em. Vic: Like one in three, I think. Vic: The TV show was pretty good, too, after you get into the second season on. John: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Anyway, I digress. The next one is Vic: Hmm. John: Speyside, and Speyside is characterized by the River Spey, which winds John: its way through that part of the country. So, Speyside is bordering on John: highlands and is adjacent to lowlands, unsurprisingly. There's a John: bizarre little area, it's very small, called Campbelltown, John: and that is, it used to be the largest whiskey producing John: city in the world. Not anymore, definitely not anymore, but Vic: Hmm. John: you know, Campbelltown got its own little area. Then you've got the Island of Islay, John: which is spelt I-S-L-A-Y, but pronounced Islay, John: and it's one island. It's not a huge island, but it's got a lot of distilleries on it and a very unique John: set of flavors to it. And then the unofficial area is generally John: considered part of Highlands, according to doctrine, but everyone else in the world has said, you know what, the John: islands, which are to the north and, well, surrounding the John: Highlands area off the coast, they should be their own area. And the islands have got, Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: [click] John: you know, like other famous distilleries, I think Talisker, for example, is one of them. There's a whole bunch John: of these famous distilleries that are on islands. They're not Islay, they're not Highlands, John: so they've got a different area. So, all these different areas have different characteristics John: supposedly, but what I've learned as well is that John: Brook Lardy, for example, Episode 5 of Brook Lardy's Whiskey Whiskey, that's coming out in a couple John: of days. By the time this goes up, it'll probably will have gone out. And Brook Lardy, Vic: Hmm. John: if you're an Islay whiskey distillery, and they are on Islay, you're supposed John: to produce a peated whiskey that's slightly salty. It's like, John: that's just the characteristic of an Islay whiskey. Well, one of my favorite John: whiskeys is the Classic Laddy. And the Classic Laddy is not peated, it's not salty, John: it's 50% ABV. That thing packs a punch and it is just Vic: Hmm. John: delightful. And it breaks all the rules of an Vic: Yeah. John: Islay whiskey. So, you can't just say, when I'm thinking of Islay, I think of whiskeys like this. Well, that might John: be true on average, but it's not a hard and fast rule. So, I do find the whole idea of John: having areas to be a bit ridiculous. Australia's got the same problem, and so John: is America. Like, you'll have a whiskey, like an American single malt whiskey that's John: made in Texas. So, like a Texan whiskey has got a certain reputation John: because of the higher temperatures, temperature swings, and so on, and maturation times. It's got a very Vic: Mm-hmm. John: different, to somewhere that's, somewhere from Kentucky, right? So, Vic: Right. John: anyway. So, that's Scotch, Scottish regions. I really find the whole thing John: to be a distraction. I don't think that it helps really too much anymore, because I think that John: in the bad old days, it used to matter more, because you had to move product around, you'd grow the barley John: locally, you'd harvest the peat locally when you're doing a peated whiskey. None of that is true anymore, Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: or very little of it is. So, it doesn't matter as much. Anyway, so that's Scotch John: regions. Now, I don't have too much else to add on regions, but just quickly on John: other characteristics, like for example, they will do double-stilled John: predominantly in Scotland. If you go to Ireland, though, Irish whiskey is John: typically triple-distilled, and I covered this on episode 2, when I talked about the Bushmills 16. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: And, of course, we already covered the whole malt, and they have more grains. They can't John: have more than 30% malt, which means you've got to, therefore, by definition, have 70% John: of unmalted grain, and that leads to a lighter whiskey, John: which I don't mind. But anyway, so, alright, got to talk about Vic: Uh, not a whole lot. John: the different kinds of single malt, single grain, and all that stuff. John: So, how much of this had you come across before? I'm just curious. Vic: A lot of this stuff, you're getting into the distinctions that make things a lot more expensive. John: No. Vic: [laughs] A little out of my class range. John: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, Vic: [laughs] Yeah. John: single malt means that... So, single malt, single grain. Vic: Yeah. John: Single does not mean literally single, and this is what annoyed me for a long John: time. So, single grain, we'll start with that. It is a Vic: Mm-hmm. John: grain whiskey. That is to say, it is essentially unmalted, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and it is a grain of any other description, right? So, you'll have, John: like, it could be wheat, it could be rye, it could be, you know, whatever, but it's a single grain. It does not John: mean one grain. You can have four different grains in your mash bill. No problem. John: But it has to come from a single distillery. So, single grain doesn't mean single John: grain. Single grain means one distillery. That's it. So, single malt, Vic: Mm. Vic: With malt. Yeah. John: exactly the same thing, but it's got malted barley in it. Yeah, with malted barley, Vic: Right. John: but it's a single distillery. So, when it says single malt, it does not mean only one kind John: of barley. No. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means one distillery. Vic: Mm. John: All right. So, a blended malt is when you get a whole bunch of John: single malts from different distilleries and you blend them together. So, there's no grain component. John: It is just a blended malt. So, for example, Johnny Walker Green is an example Vic: Mm. Vic: Mm. John: of a blended malt. So, is Naked Grouse, or as they've been renamed in John: Australia, Naked Malt, because no one knew what a hell a grouse was. I actually Vic: 'Kay. John: have no idea why they renamed it. They just did. Don't look at me. Anyway. Yeah. Vic: Mm. John: Then you've got a blended grain, which is the same idea, but your single grains from multiple distilleries are John: blended together to create a blended grain. And then finally, you have blended. John: And blended is basically a free-for-all. It could be malt. It could be grain. Vic: [laughs] Vic: It's typically when they blend it after the barreling, right? John: From anywhere you like. It's like, "Oh, I'll have a bit of this. A bit of this." John: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Of course. So, what happens is they'll say, "Well, I want Vic: Yeah. John: 20 barrels of this age from Carl Ehler, and I'll get John: another bunch here from, I don't know, maybe not John: Carl Ehler, but whatever, Glenn Farkless or something. And I'm going to chuck them all in a big vat, blend them together until they John: taste good. And then I'm going to bottle that stuff and sell it. And that is a blended whiskey. Vic: That...that blending is an art form all in itself. John: Oh, yeah. Vic: I mean, you can have really good blended stuff, and you can have [censored] Vic: [laughs] John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And my hat is off to these Vic: Mm-hmm. John: people that are, what they call them, the master blender. If you John: look at what they have to do, like, I have struggled so much Vic: Mm-hmm. John: trying to extract different flavors, different tastes. John: I'm getting better, but my God, these people have got such John: a refined sense of smell and a refined palate that they can take John: dozens and dozens of different single malts and single grain whiskeys, chuck them in a Vic: Mm-hmm. John: vat in the right proportions and come out with a consistent flavor profile year after John: year after year. So right now, if I pick up my bottle of Chivas Regal 12, John: like, this whiskey was bottled in May John: of 2024. But if you were to taste this from three years ago, that bottling John: and this bottling, I would put money on it. They would taste almost identical. Vic: Mm. John: And the reason, and they'd be the same color as well. And it's because the master Vic: Mm-hmm. John: blenders really know what they're doing. And so when they create these blends, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: they need to be consistent. They market it. So a Chivas 12 today is going to John: taste the same as a Chivas 12 in 10 years because they're building this brand. John: The flavor is the brand. And same with Johnny Walker. It's no different because John: Johnny Walker's all blended. Just different kinds. So red, black, double black, John: green, going all the way through the colors of the rainbow till you get to Johnny Walker Blue, Vic: [laughs] Yeah. John: which everyone likes to have on their shelf to say, "Hey, I've got Johnny Walker Blue." But it's actually John: really not that good. So I'm told. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm assured Vic: Mm. John: that it's not the best. It's not worth the money. But still, it looks nice. John: Johnny Walker Blue. Whatever. Anyway, yes. So blended Vic: Right. John: whiskeys. So of course, to be called a blended scotch, all of the blends, all the things you're John: blending together must also be from Scotland. There you go. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Age statements. Real quickly. So again, Chivas Regal 12 means that John: the youngest whiskey in this bottle must be 12 years old. Pretty simple. John: So it means that this is at least 12 years old. There could be stuff that's 50 years old in here. Can't John: imagine why, but there could be. You never know. Right. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Now, we talked about malted and unmalted barley. All right. We've got to circle back and finish off the story with Vic: Just for the record, you could have malted and unmalted just about anything. John: truth. Yeah, absolutely right. Yes. Vic: They also malt corn and stuff like that too a lot. Vic: Most people think of it in terms of barley. John: Yeah, exactly. Vic: That's what comes to mind, but malted versus unmalted just means Vic: whether or not you let it sprout a little bit before you chucked it into the mash John: Exactly. And that's another thing that confused me as well early on, Vic, to be honest, because I'm like, Vic: and grounded it up. John: they mean like malt as in like a malt milkshake. And it's like, Vic: Yeah, well, the first thing that always came to my mind before I got educated on it John: well. John: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Vic: was, "Is this like Whoppers?" [laughs] Vic: "Malted milk balls?" [laughs] John: You can get them, but they're all imported. Vic: I don't know if you have those candies in Australia or not, but-- Vic: [laughs] John: But I know exactly what you mean. I have had them. But yes. Vic: That's a different kind of malt. [laughs] John: Very different kind of malt. Yes. Okay. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So I've got to circle back to wrap this up, which is barrel aging. John: And one of the things that I've learned about oak, and I am learning more about oak all the time, is really, John: really fascinating. Oak is an incredible wood for holding liquids, Vic: Mm-hmm. It's very dense. John: because one of its characteristics is that it is in some, John: within limits, it is self-sealing. John: And yes, but like all woods, it also breathes. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So it's kind of like the perfect, it's the perfect wood. Vic: That's the good stuff. John: Now there are different oak types around the world, but white American John: oak is one of the most popular. John: It is the good stuff. The thing that's interesting is that Vic: Yeah. John: back in the day, I was reading up on this one with bourbon, is that they mandated John: that bourbon had to be aged, I think it's for a minimum of two years John: in virgin white oak, is that right? Yeah. So you can't... Vic: Most people want four years or more, but at a minimum two. John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: But it has to start in virgin oak. So in other words, it's never been used John: to age anything before. Fresh barrel, fresh wood, when I say fresh wood in air quotes, Vic: Right. John: I mean it's not fresh, because when they cut the tree and they turn it into planks, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and they turn those into staves, and then those staves are put into a barrel, they have to wait for John: things like the sap needs to bleed out of it, it needs to be dried, and there's a whole Vic: It's fresh in the sense that ain't nothing been aged in it before. John: bunch of prep before it's used. But the first liquid... John: Yes, exactly right. So that's what they mean when I say virgin. Vic: [laughs] John: It has nothing to do with whether or not that oak tree has born children. Moving on. John: Yes. Vic: Oh, boy, I didn't know we were going to talk about immaculate tree conception today. John: Immaculate tree conception. No, this is barrel conception. Vic: [laughs] Vic: Oh, boy. John: The little baby barrel, when the mummy and daddy barrel love each other very much. John: Oh my God. Okay. Moving on. I never thought that, just for the record. Now, the thing that's Vic: [laughs] Vic: Mm. John: interesting with Scotch whiskey, certain oak barrels generally John: are not virgin barrels, and it has to be aged for at least three years. John: So, generally, what I'm learning is... Okay, I'll keep going just briefly. Irish whiskey Vic: Mm-hmm. John: got to be at least three years aged, matured, whatever you want to call it, and Australian whiskey John: at least two years. Now, the thing that's interesting is it's... Vic: Mm-hmm. John: What drives this is the climate and thermal cycling. So, with a bourbon John: in Kentucky, you have enough thermal cycling in Kentucky to ensure Vic: Mm-hmm. John: in the Rick House and all that, that you're going to get decent John: aging because of thermal cycling within two years. Now, John: Scotland and Ireland, they have a far more temperate, cooler climate, so you're not Vic: Yeah. John: going to get those temperature variations anywhere as much as you're going to get in Kentucky, John: and certainly not as many as you're going to get in Australia. And the reason it does this, John: which I didn't realize initially when I researched it, is because Vic: Mm-hmm. John: as the temperature increases, then obviously the volume Vic: Mm-hmm. John: inside, the liquid will actually expand with temperature, John: and that increases the pressure on the actual oak barrel itself. Vic: And the wood expands and contracts, too. John: And then the reverse happens because it's sealed. That's John: exactly right. And it will absorb moisture, and if Vic: Yeah. John: you're right next to the ocean, it'll absorb some of that saltiness also from the sea spray from that. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: It'll absorb that in as well. So, you get this process where, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and that's what the aging is, is that it's actually the liquid going into the wood John: and back out of the wood again, in and out, in and out, over a long period of time, and that leaches Vic: Mm-hmm. John: the flavors from the wood into the whiskey. And that's what, John: and there are estimates out there that based on the kind of Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and age of the barrel, like if it's a virgin oak barrel, or John: if it's a first fill, second fill, third fill, whatever, before it reaches John: too far down the road and it's effectively, then they call it a dead cask, it's got no more life to give. John: You can get up to 70% of the flavor in that whiskey is barrel John: influence. It's incredible how much the barrel influences it. Vic: Yeah. John: And there's a problematic part of this too. Like with bourbon, one of the Vic: Mm-hmm. John: flavor profiles from bourbon is it can have quite a sharp, John: spicy angle to it. And a lot Vic: Mm-hmm. John: of that is the wood influence, because the virgin oak, all of that Vic: Yeah. John: oakiness and that flavor from the wood, it can overpower your palate. John: Like when you try that, it can burn. It's like, when I first had Vic: Mm-hmm. John: understood the difference between, it's like there's a spicy burn that comes from the wood John: and there's a spicy burn that comes from the alcohol. And they're two very different things Vic: Yep. John: and it's easy to get them confused. And I struggled with that early on. John: So you've got to be careful with the virgin oak casks. You can't age them for a massive John: amount of time, because you're just going to soak out so much. The law of diminishing returns, Vic: Yeah. Vic: Yeah. John: you're not going to get much more flavor, sure, but it's not just that, you're also going to leach out so much of that John: woodiness, it's going to make it undrinkable. So there's a balance to be had there, which is Vic: Very much true. John: something I didn't originally appreciate. Charring. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Char that brisket. Anyway. Vic: Before we move into that, this is also a big part of where your cost comes into, these bottles that we love so much. John: Yeah. Vic: It's from the logistics of the barrels and the barrel aging. Vic: You know, there's only, like, a still you can essentially crank unlimited product out of. Vic: But before you get to this final product, it has to go into a barrel, and it has to sit somewhere for a predetermined amount of time. Vic: And there's only so many barrels. There's only so much space to do this. Vic: So it's kind of a literal bottleneck in the process. Vic: [laughs] Vic: And so this is why, you know, your 2-year, your 4-year, your 8-year, your 12-year, your 16-years, and stuff like that. Vic: This is why there's so much increased value in those, because there's a lot of costs that went into just simply allowing that aging process Vic: and the logistics of it. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: Yeah. No, absolutely right. Absolutely. So it's handling all the barrels and John: I mean, the other thing about the barrels I was about to talk about is charring and then toasting, but John: it's like I, the first time I heard like someone say, oh yeah, it's got to be John: from charred virgin white American oak. And I'm like, you just built a barrel John: and now you're going to burn it. Why? Vic: Flavor notes, John, flavor notes. [laughs] John: But yeah, but it's not just flavor. That's the Vic: Mm-hmm. John: interesting thing is that charring isn't all about flavor. Charring is John: also about charcoal. Like, so when you char wood, Vic: Mm-hmm. John: you create charcoal. Just, it's a thing, right? So, and charcoal Vic: Mm-hmm, yeah. John: is something that, I mean, I think most people are aware of the concept of a charcoal filter. John: Yeah. And some people use it as a very crude form of water Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Yep. John: purification in an emergency. You get a whole bunch of charcoal put in a sock and you know the trick, right? Where you put the water John: through and yeah. So some people are, Vic: You also get some of that same effect in a charred barrel. John: that's exactly right. And that's one of the reasons that they do it is for that as well. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: And it's like, what you get is as the whiskey is essentially cycled John: through the surface layers of the wood on the inside contact surface through that temperature cycling, John: it also passes through the charcoal and the charring and that acts John: as a filter. So what you end up getting is you get this filtering John: of different compounds that are undesirable out of the whiskey and the charring Vic: Mm-hmm. John: is required for that. And the problem with that is that it's not about Vic: Mm-hmm. John: how many times it goes in and out with temperature cycles. It is purely time. So you can't John: accelerate that with thermal cycling. That's one of the problems. Now toasting is a different John: thing again. Toasting is, I think has, and this is a part I'm still learning about, John: but my understanding is that toasting will go to a deeper depth than John: charring. Charring is just surface. Whereas toasting will go down several Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: millimeters down into the wood from all sides. And Vic: Mm-hmm. John: I'm trying to remember the reason I like to do it. It slipped my mind for the moment, but just simply John: to say you would buy, let's say you had a used barrel, John: second, third fill barrel. You might scrape the inside of it and rechar Vic: Mm-hmm. John: it and toast it. Well, you toast it first, then you char it. So when you buy your barrel, Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: let's say your McAllen and you're going to buy a whole bunch of sherry, Oloroso sherry John: casks from Jerez in Spain to age all of your really super expensive Vic: Yeah. John: whiskey. Well, what you're going to do is probably order a toast on it, have a medium toast on it John: and then you're going to char it. And it's like, that is what they do to get the flavor profile that they're looking John: for. And it works. It's fascinating. Vic: Yeah, and I think that toasting is technically, well, it is a much deeper burn, but I don't think it's as intensive a burn. John: Yeah. Vic: Like, the charring is going to come out to look like charcoal from your grill. Vic: The toasting is just going to look like toasted wood. John: Yes. And there's two different purposes for doing it. Right. So I'm pretty sure Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: It is, yeah. John: that toasting is more about flavor than it is about. Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: So all of this is to say we've been talking about this now for over an hour, probably Vic: Yep. John: an hour and 10, hour and 15 specifically about whiskey. And we've barely scratched the surface. Vic: Right. John: Like there is so much to this. Oh my God. There is so much to this. It's not funny. Vic: If you'll indulge a slightly nerdy digression here for just a moment related to the barrel aging, John: Go for it. Vic: you can -- let me state first of all, none of these reputable companies that we're talking about is going to be doing this. John: Hmm. Vic: But you can accelerate this aging process. Vic: There are techniques to do it. Vic: There are people that can -- like, you'll encounter this a lot in the moonshine industry, because a lot of these people -- Vic: like, I say industry loosely. Vic: I'm talking, you know, your true backwoods industry. Vic: But they also want to sell a whiskey product in addition to just their moonshine. Vic: And there's a couple of ways you can accelerate this project. Vic: The first thing that comes to mind is you can jar it or bucket it, and you can put chunks of wood into it. Vic: And then you can, like -- and this is a pretty labor-intensive process. Vic: This is the really -- you're really working for it process. Vic: You can move it in and out of deep freezers periodically. John: Wow. Vic: Let it come to ambient temperature, and then move it back into the freezer. Vic: And that is probably the closest simulation to the natural aging you're going to get. John: Right. Vic: If you want to go more the lazy route but still accelerate the aging process, you can simply rock your barrels or periodically roll your barrels. John: Mm hmm. Vic: Like, there's cases where people just take a few barrels, and they'll simply put it on a boat that's going out to sea for fishing or whatever for a few months. Vic: And the rocking of the sea will drastically accelerate this process. Vic: Because basically what you're doing is you're -- like, even if you're doing the bucket deep freezer method or you're doing the rocking your barrels method, Vic: you're accelerating the process of pushing and pulling the liquid in and out of the wood. John: Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. So by agitating it, you're Vic: Mm-hmm. John: accelerating it. Yeah. Fascinating. Cool. All righty. Well Vic: Yeah. Yeah. John: I guess we should probably wrap up at some point. But John: because we've barely scratched the surface. I mean there is right. Vic: But there's so much more. Vic: [ Laughter ] Vic: Yeah. John: There is. So what I'm what I'm trying to do with whiskey whiskey Vic: It's a fascinating craft. John: it really is and it is a craft and this is what I've come to appreciate. And there's so many John: things that I've learned in the last three months alone that I never realized. John: I've done episode and every episode of whiskey whiskey that I do I try John: and explore one other aspect of it. And there's so many aspects of it it's going to keep me going for a long John: time probably. And some of the ones we've covered on this episode some of them we haven't John: yet. I haven't yet in whiskey whiskey. So for example in terms of different ones I've John: I've I've reviewed obviously I've reviewed the ones that I have at hand which John: I've got the McCallum 12 12 year Sherry Oak Bushmills 16 year John: Irish whiskey the Lark Symphony number one which is an Australian whiskey Vic: Mm-hmm. John: I'll talk a little bit about Australian whiskey in a minute actually. I've also talked about I've also covered the John: Chivas Regal 12 Chivas Regal 18 blended Scotches John: and I've also reviewed Jamison's original and I John: also did Brook Lattie the classic Lattie. In terms of ones I haven't recorded John: yet but I've done the notes for I just need time to record them is John: the Glen Flitick a Glen Flitick 12 year so I'm going to have another crack at that one John: but this time knowing what I'm doing. Then I've got a Tom and Tal 10 year John: and 16 year single malt Scotch. That should be interesting I've never tried them before. John: I'm actually going to do a review of my Kentucky Spirit Wild Turkey because I can't have a show John: called Whiskey Whiskey and not review Bourbons as well because I'm going to do that and when I Vic: Yeah. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: restock my 101 I'll do a proper review of that too. Vic: Speaking of wild turkey, I know we talked about this one in the past, but I can't remember if you said you ever got around to trying it or not. John: Mmm. John: Yes I did Vic: Did you ever get your hands on a bottle of Long Branch? Vic: That's good stuff. John: and yes I did. It is good stuff it is very nice. The only regret Vic: [ Laughter ] John: that I have looking back is I never tried it neat but yeah it was still a very Vic: Mm. John: nice bourbon for sure. Vic: Made by wild turkey. That's why it comes to mind there. John: Yeah the only one I haven't one of the ones I haven't tried is that Vic: Yeah. John: Pappy Van Winkle so that's not I haven't done that. Vic: Oh, that's expensive. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: That's why I haven't tried it. Anyway in terms of other future episodes I want to do John: I want to do one of Bushmills original red and black doing Vic: Hmm. John: them as sort of a comparative and after this the only other John: one I've got after that currently I just need to record it is Loch Lomond John: and I've got an original 12 and 18 year and I want to compare and contrast those. Vic: Nice. John: So what I've been doing is I've been searching for these tasting packs you know Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and where I can find a tasting pack then I'll do them as a comparative John: because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to I guess bust that myth that non age John: statement and 12 year 18 year 25 year like going up in years is not necessarily an Vic: Yeah. John: increase in quality it's definitely an increase in price but there's not because I mean John: that the shivers 12 and 18 I guess you have to watch the episode episode 4 to figure out what I thought John: but it's 2 and a half to 3 times the price between the two Vic: Mm-hmm. John: so the real question that I'm trying to answer for myself and for anyone else that's interested John: is you know if I have like 150 dollars to put down or John: 140 dollars which is the recommended retail on shivers 18 should I do that or should I get John: two or nearly three bottles of shivers 12 and I'm like well yeah it's is it really worth it Vic: Right. John: and you know well that's the question so I because I just I came John: into this Vic and it's like people were buying well whiskey for a thousand dollars a bottle and I'm like John: wow okay and I tried a thousand dollar bottle of whiskey I tried to try to you know 30 John: mil standard and honestly it was beautiful but John: it's not a thousand dollars beautiful so I'm just trying to answer this it's Vic: That's a lot of money. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: so much money for a 700 mil bottle that's insane so and Vic: That's a lot of money for something that's gonna taste good for a moment and then work your kidneys and your liver overtime for a few moments and then it's gonna go down the drain. John: in US John: yeah pretty much that's pretty much right exactly Vic: [ Laughter ] John: so I'm trying to figure out what's the sweet spot you know I'm learning my own Vic: Yeah. John: palate learning what's like does it really matter if it's an John: Australian whiskey if it's an Irish whiskey if it's an American you know single malt or an American Vic: Mm-hmm. John: bourbon does it really matter and in Scotch like do I really John: like pitted whiskeys Highland pitted Islay pitted different because they're different pates John: you know because some whiskey's got a medicinal taste to them I've already decided that I don't Vic: Yeah. John: like that so it's like it's learning my own palate so what I'm trying to do with whiskey is it's my John: personal journey as I'm trying to understand what do I like what don't I like what's good Vic: Mm-hmm. John: value and what isn't so it's it's going to take a while and I'm going to be John: drinking a lot of whiskey's along the way it's going to take me years to reach any reasonable Vic: Yes. John: conclusions but that's okay because it is enjoyable Vic: It's a fun journey. Vic: Mm-hmm. John: it is and the key thing here is I don't John: I don't drink this stuff to get wasted if I wanted to get wasted I wouldn't be spending Vic: That's good. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: I wouldn't be spending a hundred dollars on a bottle Vic: That's when you reach for that $17 bottle of Jimmy. John: I wouldn't be spending a hundred dollars on a bottle yes something like that John: exactly it's like but if that's what I wanted to do and it's not then you know I want to John: enjoy what I'm sipping I don't want to I'm not on for that to get wasted Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and to get wasted on scotch is a waste and even a decent bourbon Vic: Yeah. John: like Wild Turkey 101 it's not something you want to get wasted on it just enjoy it anyway Vic: Right. John: so but with the Australian whiskey scene and then we got to wrap it up I think so in Australia John: back in 1992 or 1994 one or the other there was an Vic: Mm-hmm. John: enterprising guy Mr. Lark I think his name was Lark John: whatever he created Lark Distilleries I don't have notes in front of me for his name but John: he had he's in Tasmania now I'll forgive you if you don't remember Vic: Yeah. John: much about Australian geography but Tasmania is the small island state off the southern tip John: of the country of the mainland and it's got a very Vic: Mm-hmm. John: cool climate it's more analogous to Scotland not quite that cold John: but there are parts of Tasmania up in the highlands high country in the middle of Tasmania John: that does get quite very much like that anyway so he created Lark Distillery Vic: Mm. John: he had to turn over a government rule that had been in place since like for John: a hundred years before that that stated that you could not have your own John: private distilleries it was illegal they wouldn't license it they wouldn't let you do it it was just John: against the law so he had them amend the law to let him John: build a distillery so he built the first Australian John: distillery of the modern era we did have whiskey distilleries Vic: It's wild to me that that took so long. John: I know there were two distilleries in Australia John: that were creating whiskeys but they were terrible and they were running since like John: 1950 to 1980 and they only existed John: producing blended scotches that were reportedly terrible because the Australian John: government had placed tariffs on the import of scotch whiskey so the only way Vic: Mm. John: you could get a whiskey in Australia was to buy from these two otherwise you're paying an absolute John: fortune to get something from Scotland so that was really really annoying and so he had that John: so when they lifted the tariffs in the 80s those two companies promptly went out of business because their product was John: terrible and no one bought it because you could buy the real deal that was far better John: for less so why the hell would you buy this locally made rubbish so they went out of business and then there was a void John: in the market it was all imports for about a decade until Lark came along John: so when Lark came along and they demonstrated that we can make amazing whiskey John: in Australia and it's like a lot of people sort of like shook Vic: Mm-hmm. John: their head and like nah this is never going to work and now there's like 50, 70, 100 John: distilleries in various stages like 50 of them are open John: operating with cellar doors they'll sell you whiskey right now and some of it is John: really good but most of it is non-age statement simply because Vic: Mm. John: it's only been an industry in Australia for 30 years now so in order to have a 25 Vic: Right. John: year aged Scotch, sorry 20 year John: aged whiskey you would have had to have had it bottled in the first few years of the John: distillery and not touched it for 20 years and there just aren't enough barrels Vic: Yep. John: with that and the other problem with Australian whiskey is that the early whiskey John: pioneers in the last 30 years we had problems negotiating John: because we had no money so we couldn't negotiate with the sweeter John: casks so things like your Oloroso Sherries and your John: PX Sherries and you know musket finished, musket for finishing John: it's like we couldn't get access to the barrels there just weren't enough of them in Australia because we didn't have Vic: Mm. John: very many sweet fortified wines grown in Australia what we have to call John: Aperol because of the trade name with Port and with Sherry you can't John: call it that so anyway it's kind of like America with bourbon right so we can't call it bourbon either Vic: Yeah. Vic: Oh, you want to talk about snobbery, man, get into the wine world. Vic: [ Laughter ] Vic: They make the things we've talked about here so far look like friendly conversation. John: oh yeah I know right yeah John: mmhmm, mmhmm, it's like Vic: [ Laughter ] John: what part of France are you from? Oh that's not really Champagne man Vic: You're right. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: it's gotta be from the Champagne region or it's not Champagne, oh my god John: anyway alright so we had to age a lot of our early stuff in what we had and we had John: lots of you know wines like Cabernet Sauvignon John: you know oh god I'm struggling for wine John: varieties right now Shiraz, Pinot Noir Vic: Mm-hmm. John: you know like all these different wines we had to use their casks John: because that's all we had to age in and so they didn't have the same flavour notes Vic: Yep. John: you would get and so we started picking up a lot of good deals on John: you know because America produces so much bourbon there's so many barrels that they can't use Vic: Mm-hmm. John: in bourbon because they're no longer a virgin oak so they've got to sell them so they've got a massive Vic: Right. John: amount, a massive supply so we picked up a whole bunch of that so then we started seeing lots of bourbon John: aged barrels, bourbon aged whiskeys but as Vic: Nice. John: everything has evolved we've got import agreements now with Spain and John: there's more and more Australian whiskeys being matured in Oloroso John: Sherry or PX Sherry casks for example the two most popular ones for whiskeys John: as well as bourbon so and that's good because it means that Vic: Mm. John: we can then meet some of those flavour notes that other international whiskeys can John: also hit so I mean honestly it's an exciting time in Australia because John: a lot of these distilleries are opening up possibilities there's this one distillery in Byron Bay John: which is not too far from me called the Highwaymen and one of theirs they Vic: Mm. Vic: Nice name. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: did a special, I know right, I know, they're famous insofar John: as they released a whiskey that had been matured incrementally John: across I think it was seven different types of barrels Vic: Mm. John: so these are not just seven barrels, these are seven completely different finished barrels John: so like they had Oloroso Sherry, they had like two John: different kinds of red wines, they had like a musket, they had all these different John: the combination was insane and the end result Vic: And they just cycle it through all the barrels? John: yes, so they did a mixture of parallel Vic: Nice. John: they had a mixture of parallel and then they blended as well as subsequent casks John: so they do like half the batch in this barrel, half the batch in a different barrel then they'd mix them together John: for the third barrel kind of a deal so you do the mix and split John: mix and split sort of thing Vic: I'll bet you get some really interesting flavor profiles that way, though. John: it was highly acclaimed because it was such an unusual whiskey because the flavour profile John: was, it was actually really good but it was so complex Vic: Mm-hmm. John: it was described by one of the reviewers as being the most complex John: journey for a whiskey ever but John: it's like, so you've got these people that are pioneering stuff that others are just not trying and John: that's great but you also pay for the privilege, we don't have economies of scale so John: like a 500ml bottle of Lark Symphony No. 1 which is considered to be a very good drop John: it costs more than a 12 year Macallan John: Sherry Oak and it costs more than an equivalent volume than the double cask John: so it's something like, if you take the entry level Macallan which is a 12 year John: double cask, you're looking at, I think it's an extra John: $75 to get the same volume of Lark Symphony No. 1 Vic: Mm. John: and that's non-age statement so you look at that and you're like, okay John: so you're paying a lot more for a non-age statement that it does taste probably Vic: Mm-hmm. John: a little bit better than the Macallan but it's not John: that much more so I don't know John: and the other problem is with all this Vic is that taste is subjective, like I like licorice Vic: Yes. Vic: No. John: you don't like licorice, you know what I mean? It's like, no John: and it's like, okay, so I like, you know, Piedro Zemenez John: or what they just call PX Sherry casks, I like that finish Vic: Mm-hmm. John: I like that more than I like Oloroso and it's like, I've learnt that just in the last few weeks John: I was like, okay, great, but it's like, you may be the other way around, in fact you may not like anything John: that's Sherry finished, you might just say, no, I like my stuff finished in John: ex-Bourbon casks, I'm a Bourbon man, I mean, like whatever, it's like, our tastes are individualistic John: they are subjective, so it's about learning John: what you like and then investing in stuff that you enjoy John: and you just, and just enjoying what you John: enjoy and this is one of those things that I've learnt and where I went wrong going way John: back to the Lavalin 16 year is that was a pitted whiskey and I haven't found a Vic: Mm. John: pitted whiskey that I can enjoy yet, I tried a Talisker 10 Vic: Just not something you care for. John: and it was just, no, it's not, it's like breathing out smoke Vic: [ Laughter ] John: and it's not like I'm vaping and I'm not smoking a cigarette, but Vic: Yeah. John: pitted whiskey quite literally, when you drink it, well first of all, when you nose it John: you smell it, it's like there is a really strong smokiness and it's not like a bushfire smoke Vic: Mm-hmm. John: it's not like a forest fire smoke, it's not even like a campfire smoke, it's a very unusual John: different kind of a smokiness and so you smell that and then you drink it and as you taste it Vic: Mm. John: you can taste the smokiness and then the finish, it's like you're breathing out smoke John: for a few minutes afterwards, it is the most bizarre thing and Vic: I might have actually liked that. John: some people love it Vic: I might have actually liked it. I tend to kind of like a smoky whiskey. John: yeah, some people love it, yeah, so I mean, these pitted whiskeys, lots John: of people love them and they say, you know what, it's part of your palate, you will get there, you know, it's kind of like John: Marco Armand years ago saying I'll get to, I'll eventually John: stop putting crap in my coffee and I'll go to black coffee and he was right, eventually John: I did go to black coffee, but I still only have it on rare occasions, but Vic: Yeah. John: I can drink black coffee now, I never used to be able to 8 years ago, so maybe John: in another 8 years time I'll be enjoying pitted whiskey and I'll look back at these videos that I did and I'll be like John: oh, well I like it now, so it's a journey, you know, I don't know Vic: Eh. Vic: You know, if you don't, even if you don't, it's still fine. John: absolutely, and that's a good thing Vic: It's all a relative personal thing. John: because, and the great thing is there's choice, so anyway, look, I want to keep making Vic: Mm-hmm. John: whiskey, whiskey for the time being, it makes me happy, I enjoy making it Vic: That's good, because I want to keep watching it. John: There's so much more to explore Vic: [ Laughter ] Vic: Mm-hmm. John: and there's so much more that I don't know and there are so many damn whiskeys in the world John: and that's just like, and even the bourbon whiskey market is exploding as well John: there's so many bourbons now compared to like 20 years ago Vic: Yeah. John: there's so many choices and some of the ones that I've had are exceptionally good Vic: Mm-hmm. John: so I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to just do scotch John: I've already done stuff that's not scotch and I'll continue to do more Vic: Yeah. Vic: You know. John: so it's going to be interesting, so yeah Vic: Yeah. Vic: You know, if you ever take -- I'm sure you will at some point, but, you know, Vic: sometime when you take one of your American field trips Vic: and you've got a little more time to kill and you can make it over to this part of the country, Vic: I highly recommend checking out -- and I'm sure you probably maybe have already heard about this. Vic: Also, listeners as well, you know, because a lot of you guys are here. Vic: There's a thing in Kentucky called the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, and it's basically just -- Vic: it's not like an official trail. Vic: Like, I mean, there are a few companies that'll take you on a guided van tour through it, Vic: but basically you can go and tour all of the big, really popular distilleries, Vic: and you can see how they make it, and you can try samples Vic: and learn about the history of it and the culture of it. Vic: It's a pretty interesting experience that you should try sometime, Vic: especially, like, there's a couple of towns here in this state, Vic: like the first and biggest one that comes to mind. Vic: There's a town called Bardstown, Kentucky, and they call it loosely the bourbon capital of the world. Vic: And it's an interesting town. Vic: Like, I go into this town regularly for work reasons, not for drinking reasons, Vic: but, like, when you get into the town, on a good day, the whole town smells like whiskey mash, Vic: and it's just -- it's wild, and there are just rickhouses everywhere you go. Vic: You just see these just bunches and bunches of huge rickhouses that are just full of barrels, Vic: and there's distilleries, and the smell of mash in the air, and the smell of distilling in the air. Vic: It's really something to experience. John: Well I do hope to get over there Vic and that sounds like a lot of fun actually Vic: Yeah, I think you'd really enjoy it. John: to do with someone else driving Vic: Well, it depends on how quickly you do the trip. Vic: Like, if you try and hit them all in a day, yeah, you're going to need a DD. John: [laughs] Vic: But if you're doing it over, you know, a few days or a weekend or a week or whatever, John: yes indeed, yes so Vic: then it's not too bad, too rough on you. Vic: But, you know, just given your -- you know, how you're enjoying the experimenting Vic: and the tasting the different stuff and all and diving into the culture and stuff, Vic: I think you'd really enjoy it. Vic: There you go. John: Well it's added to my bucket list, consider it added John: Alright, well, so I've released four episodes as of time of recording John: there are two more that are going to be released in the next couple of weeks John: so by the time you listen to this they may also be live John: so record them and when I do record them John: when I'm sampling these I will actually give my review on the sampling during the recording Vic: Mm-hmm. Vic: Right. John: so it's a genuine sort of like it's not pre-capped like I tried it five minutes ago and wrote down my notes John: that's not what I'm doing so in any case, alright but you know what if you want to talk more about this Vic: Yeah. Vic: [ End ] John: you can reach me on the Fediverse at [email protected] or the network at [email protected] John: if you're enjoying Pragmatic and you'd like to support us and keep the show ad free you can by becoming a premium supporter John: just visit engineer.network/pragmatic to learn how you can help this show to continue to be made John: thank you. Don't forget, by popular request the official Pragmatic T-shirts John: are available again for a limited time so if you've got an old one and it's all stretched out or it's got a couple of holes in it John: or it doesn't fit so well anymore, well you can grab yourself another one so there you go John: with different drinkware as well, I also have stickers if you like stickers, some people love them John: they're there if you want them, visit engineer.network/store for details John: a big thank you to all of our supporters, a special thank you to our silver producers John: Mitch Bilger, Shane O'Neill, Jared Roman, Katerina Will, Chad During and Ian Gallagher John: and an extra special thank you to our gold producers, Stephen Bridle, Kellen Frodelius Fujimoto John: and our gold producer known only as R John: now don't forget to check out our other great shows and they include things like Pragmatic Electric John: obviously, Causality and Whiskey Whiskey which is what we've spent John: and Causality TV, that's true, it's all Causality Vic: Causality TV. Vic: It's really good. John: but yes, we've spent the whole last hour and a half, nearly two hours talking about Whiskey Whiskey John: so yes, check that one out as well, please Vic: Those first four episodes kind of fell off the back of the truck for me, Vic: and I was able to sneak preview them. Vic: You really should check them out, listeners. John: yeah, thanks man, thank you so much and yes, you binged them Vic: They're really good. John: so yes, and if you're a premium supporter on Patreon Vic: You can just try to find me on the socials. John: you could also binge them all because they're already live right now for all the premium patrons and above John: so, alright, so if people want to get in touch with you Vic John: this is the best way for them to get in touch with you, mate Vic: It's @vickhudson1. Vic: Probably Mastodon is probably the best place right now, Vic: and that would be [email protected]. Vic: [ Laughter ] Vic: Because somebody had to name their thing stupid. John: that old chestnut is still going Vic: [ Laughter ] John: you're not wrong, you're not wrong Vic: Yeah. Vic: I can be found most places all around the Internet. John: awesome, alright, cool, thanks for that Vic: It's just vickhudson1. John: excellent, very good, well, a special thank you to our supporters Vic: I've never felt more qualified to do an episode of this show John: a big thank you to everybody for listening and as always John: thank you Vic for bringing that special something to this episode in particular John: I really enjoyed your input and I learnt some things from you and it's been fun John: so thank you so much for coming on again Vic: than I do right now. Vic: [ Laughter ] John: alright, as the kids say, hashtag winning, there you go Vic: Yes. John: alright, thanks again mate, cheers Vic: Thank you for having me.