Pragmatic 24: Downloaded vs Streamed

9 June, 2014


John is a proponent of downloading. Josh Centers is a proponent of streaming. Which is the one true, most efficient and economical solution?

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic is a weekly discussion show contemplating the practical application of technology exploring the real-world trade-offs we look at how great ideas are transformed into products and services that change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode is sponsored by wit from Studios visit went from to get in touch and take advantage of a special offer for that at icon and logo designs exclusively for pragmatic listeners was all about more about them during the show on your host John GG I'm joined today by my guest host Josh sentence Heydon Josh as you tourists on your while back as this is the only moral businesses are seriously also keep up yard on now I'm sure I'm sure will be fine it's that sister one of those things I support out there and asked a few people arm abounds downloading versus streaming and I've had I have lost count how many times I've argued with people on Twitter about this and as you know most Twitter arguments tend to sort of devolve quickly they are at hundred 40 carriages of time they fall apart quickly McGregor and Mrs crazy Benghazi yet what it's just anyway the point is that I someone bugged me for ages nice and I was looking for somebody arm who who was who is into streaming because I'm into downloading so I thought it might be interesting to explore the pros and cons of that weekend and just try and settle this once and for all this in my mind anyway so arm you want to give us a shot we are you will divide arm list for us is as geography proposal are you know as I worry you understood it in all that you down there in Australia and the connections done have not always been great arm numbing the damage but America not think but I think that Liselotte into it it seems to me a lot of the web frugality streaming really depends on often depend on your Internet connection because streaming has a lot of advantages arm doesn't take up as much storage space typically arm that gives you wider selection arm's of beans by boat is a lot more bandwidth intensive downloading just once and that you have but doesn't exit our space new device are limited to just what you have downloaded absolutely no easy and you heading on some key points right there so absolutely right totally agree with everything you said what I do is try and tackle this arm in select this three angles I consider the first one is like a technical pros and cons of each method the second one is the trust problem which is like how much do you trust arm different aspects of your choice and I guess it does make sense yet medical exams in a minute bit and then there's the cost which is just the raw cost yet is a cheaper download is achieved a stream and and why and I guess the other thing is as one put some boundaries on it and it them I wrote down this note boundaries and the thing is was not about audio and video what else is that a stream I think well I guess technically if you're browsing the web your streaming text you know and if using something like Insta paper technically you're not your your downloaded Insta paper and then you go out of that you won't be streaming it will be downloaded so I guess there is that that that text component so arm what model limited superstring comic books – or if you're into comics absolutely so arm yet another good example so just trying to sort of describe a little bit but the other thing to keep in mind as well is that idolaters talk about mobile streaming because streaming also applies just as much to our desktops because there were streaming on desktops long before they were streaming to a mobile device so sort of you and is also the other aspect which is streaming are within a house is something else will touch on later as a whole arm yellow yarn streaming our airplay to a set of speakers or whatever I'm doing so there's there's a whole bunch of different angles to look at so I want to start with the technical side of things which is the year the pros and cons of the technical and because everyone is right residing raving about streaming and C got qualified Pandora's and the music side arm you've got this arm beats and there's a few others out there as well so all these yet you payment my monthly fee and they allow you to stream whatever music they got in their catalogue on the video side because you've got Leo Barnett for Netflix arm Hulu and HBO go I think you are crap all and in earlier years the measured three I think so too with a two dammit your abs cacti forget you've downright U-tube yes soap all of these options are all streamed and is also to have good reasons for that but in any case the problem with streaming and the history behind it is that any interruption to your download and you can lose your place and in a lot of early protocols went when you're doing streaming you if you lost your place is was stiff it was right back to the beginning again you didn't you couldn't like start halfway through it's gotten a lot better in the last 5 to 10 years but back in the beginning of the Internet it was terrible streaming was hideously unreliable we recently it's been bad arm job and some supply gas clients it is a Chris substrate will listen while back and mailed android days and it was purely streaming there is no downloading and arm in a silent calendar stacks in a be commuting and you go through a coverage area and it was like pick up loose signal in the lake then played again and it was a trainer play like that the scrubber should be in the mill podcast that was playing from the very start Catholic apostolic all over again final technically, even happens in my track story words actually is in that stream near exist it's all because comes back to the protocols and honestly some the protocols were just built on the assumption that you have are a decent connection or a constant connection and essentially gets interrupted it just loses its mind and has no choice but to go back to the beginning of sort of Bell and things have evolved me no end and is better better technologies and and and better protocols out there these days so it's it's something that it's been an evolution of think and things have improved but ultimately it comes out the reliability of the network in question and on a landline you might think I can't take it on a landline like other got ADSL I got fibre I've got coaxial cable maybe honour obesity will still die because they do and some you all yet it's because this can be a pretty high reliability thing but then you've got network congestion and you can be congestion anywhere in the network your ISP could be getting congested there could be issues with the connection on the year on the host and you try streaming that the data from the reliability of your network is or is not affect how effective streaming actually can be so that the great advantage of new head on this already wet and in the in the first minute we were talking about and that is are the cost of storage on your mobile device if you stream it you don't have to store it and of course storage cost money and historically storage costs a lot of money using Mohammed memories to cost and dump the iPods of the original iPods of their spinning hard drives or they could stream anything but when I switched to flash a four gig flash these things really just barely cheaper for a full 44 gig of memory whatever was going on compared to were are compared to a 30 foot bath gamma gigabyte iPod it was the spinning disc and yummy there was very expensive severe mobile device you just couldn't afford the memories of streaming makes sense for that even if you are measuring iPhone stars. Expensive because you're the sort there were come with 16 GB standards still only a hand and $100 unit of 16 gig plates and how much cheaper is the storage now than it was years ago you absolutely and done at this point in time I sort of did some maths based on numb the US prices of iPads on iPads I forgot the same thing but to get the big range is only iPad got hundred 28 gig so I got 16 gig hundred 28 gig is an increment of $300 price now if you assume that you get two years of usage out of your device then enters a monthly cost you look you're paying $12.50 a month for having that extra storage that $12.50 can be going towards streaming and any could stick with a 16 gig model so if you're streaming for less than 1250 a month and your total expenditure you about your head rather than there and you don't have to worry about managing that on your device because how many times you plug your device and you got the content downloaded and you've got a shuffling is around I really want listen to this today I will watch this today delete legally delete late running a 16 gig device right you know I decided something you huge huge thing you'll soon be able streamed I missed there was announced early this week is that when I was eight will be able to stream your photo library at the Rwanda iPhone users as a huge pinpoint you know from the 16 GB users even through 32 GB and is partly why the arm main uses of storage my folders photos and videos yet you that is a really really good point absolutely and because once 170 goes up into arm iCloud if photo streams can store it and it'll roll off your device and then you can pull down whatever you want wherever you want and that's again that'll be yes streaming data from the cloud so you one I didn't I missed that one entirely so arm alright so that the other issue with having more yellow more memory and small storage only mobile devices that usually that will cause your battery to drain more quickly especially solid-state memory so you in the end honestly it's a matter of it's it's a matter of compromises streaming sounds like the way to go for a mobile device primarily the problem though is that the size of the media has increased along the way so it no longer is just streaming using a really low bit rate go with my dial this back to 1995 with real the real player like RealNetworks and their RM player and I was streaming stuff at extremely low bit rates and it sounded god-awful but you know it it was the first I think real Mamma's attempt to stream audio and now will be doing with streaming 1080p video in a site that the bandwidth requirements of increased incredibly in the last will honour put more strain on the network and that causes more congestion on the network and that then countered that that basically then Stella starts to defeat the streaming because if you you know minutes like it's it's like what we want to stream hours going beyond our capacity to stream so we kill anatomy without streaming our boy John Moore wall arm in all of these have ways of greeting like natural gas armament quite sure specific subnetworks Bagnall deftly degrades if it arm has a problem are the streaming services are you can kick them down and light Laura quality modes like for instance on beats Arby's music and kick down to 64 kb per second pass modify thinkers unlike 96 guilders per second inner arm is soul enormously streaming music services can go down to extremely low bit rates to 7 bandwidth are absolutely wisdom that air now I'm a music store more flexible than video or those things have been discussing button you actually know the absolute right and that is an interesting compromise because what I meant is that you can continue to watch or listen to what you're watching or listening to and some you will lose some of the quality but the bottom line though is that had UAC download a free one at the door you would have experienced no loss of quality so cite your your trading off potential quality to overcome the loss of connection and the loss of streaming is an interesting solar trade-off but it's I think it's still a good trade-off to make especially if you've bought into the streaming option because it's either that or you can watch it all so when I was thinking about this I was thinking about how think that the pipes have to be to make streaming useful and possible so starting out with just you and I sounds weird streaming text of the blabbermouth really what web browsing is mostly text and images so if you're on a soul listed with the three options on to give put on the table are armed the fixed line option the arm might mobile phone sorry cellular network option and then the Wi-Fi option so if you streaming Texans on dial-up is fine 950 6K 30 36K you know maybe even now in our home got 28 AK maybe you could do it all shall you Google through and chauffeur covert idea here and were showing average that anyhow so then of course 2G networks and if anything is of course there was always wireless access protocol and I think I was 9600 board of from memory arm that worked on before that but 2G only generally let's just run with that edge maybe our sort of thing so then you've got some Wi-Fi a will be so I do to 11 a or B you and an Eskimo hat handle just fine streaming of music and audio is an excellent step up and you really do want to start sort of go beyond dial-up for that see looking at probably a low level ADSL one tight connection arm 3G would be preferable and if you're in a house may be Wi-Fi I do to 11 RG maybe would probably best then you start stepping up into more hard-core staff unity standard definition video then I'd beast did you want ADSL to really arm Sosa sought speeds to be getting that you know 3G might cut it 4G would be better arm you did as a standard definition video and is Wi-Fi and I think would be preferably proper get away with Gbit dining and is probably better and you can sort of see some of that in the evolution of the Apple TV as well so when I added HD video of course they went to 1 dual band and now more recently AC on the Wi-Fi side and if you HD video fibre is near highly recommended and 4G is an absolute must so unite it's got to that point where we've had to fatten up the pipes to basically make streaming a possibility still one of the owners of the problem loosen movable and I have a strong American in Australia but arm as LTE as 4G has become more prevalent 3G has become worthless because they have are dedicated band worth to LTE so now begin with 3G area a mottled name as a data signal you that's right you're right and the similar things are actually happening here as well so Telstra is not a massive rollout of of LTE and done that sound out biggest carrier in you and and they have to some extent repaired a paper with their rum can with their frequency spectrum so similar kinds of problems happening here as well and it's not a matter of being used to the 4G download speeds they are literally crimping in back on the 3G and putting all the effort of the four so near its it is a problem that sound in any case right so streaming is also very dependent on the encoding technology that something is also been evolving and that requires hardware and/or software to encode and decode it so you know for example via H264 up-and-coming H265 and that you are the obvious culprits MP3 and AAC for example for audio so that's been evolving at times gone and it also assisted arm streaming in the different streaming protocols over the years I don't want to go to these intimate stepsister list office for the hell of it is like UDP arm our user datagram protocol RTP's real-time transport protocol are TSB's real-time streaming protocol at ECP's real-time transport control protocol and these are all different ways of attacking the streaming problem they have different features and functionality and as I've gone from start to finish and at least getting more advanced so it is a leak in the shards if you want more information about that but I don't only answer beyond the scope of this but so bottom line is streaming to work you have to have access to a network when you want to stream what you want strain is fully obvious but you know that's the the advantage of downloading is that you don't you all you need to do is have a little bit of preplanning cease I can't honour what this honour or on the listener this honour download before I leave my arm I Wi-Fi all my you ADSL to connection my fibre my my Comcast connection whatever I've got and I'm going to then walk out the door and is even if I got 2G 3G 40 I choose not to use a listen to my local device I don't have to worry about streaming don't worry about congestion at worry about any other stuff that takes a lot of that peace of mind away as I get a lot of his mate slight stress away so but because of that the preplanning means that you kill spontaneity so if you're out and about and you will listen that once we know what happens you're out there and it's like I could really go for I don't know Katrina and the waves walking on sunshine and bad example maybe probably definitely a waypoint is your listener that you have in your library well you are like arch if you download it if you don't have on your device anything on your library at home that's no good to you so what you do your luck is way streaming in the case they could stream as a dump Robbie how Katrina wasn't catalogue meanwhile who would if you want your dog you with your Futurama fan over the years as the reason why the streaming server to stream music certain services are so popular it served hours because the music I think even more more than any other medium arm is as different moods everything right you know you're driving require annual someone size and wasn't to thoroughly and was streaming you can do that and arm downloads that's our analysts the frustrating thing downloading is that arm and was streaming is still a small as managing your data and measures comes up later in the show below arm you know I was in iTunes is also a second job to go through and your manager admitted data matching measure alma mater arm in inner loading logos under the advice of these offers advice in various locations matches the stalls remote manual doodling there arm yourself with account books and little or all of the videos you know I haven't written my literary collection are for playback Apple TV heights at Exelon LTE enables automated tools are just helping out at the mandate of these things the site of one of you have one restorative are you know unit was tagged properly as a scissors sooner encoding the right way in and the cooling streaming is given timber some beaten bikes at your every month and it they handle it for me and I don't have to think about it long as I have a solid Internet connection arm I understood the guide takes off all that a lot out of my only focus absolutely and and I was about to cover that and so yet now we have and I think you said pretty much everything I had on my my notes listen that is so it is now not don't know that's fine that's fine is it it's exactly the point and and is you are taking on the burden of managing all of this stuff that you will listen to because you know when you listen to it you gotta have it all set up and ready to go if and when you should choose to listen to it whereas if it streamed you have to worry about any of that so absolutely that is a big plus for streaming so before we go any further as women talk quickly about our sponsor for the show and done selling a business or an app is like selling a house you can take a huge amount of time and money redecorating greenhouse of the scratch and modernising it into great photos build a website show off the house but if there's one thing missing one missing piece against buyers are walking through the front door as curb appeal the old saying goes don't judge a book by its cover but frankly most of 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Netflix Hulu whoever I have to trust that it's gonna be there tomorrow as they could go into business they give or by Facebook I can get book by Google and then killed you Hulu leaders analytic things down because they feel like it exactly you don't know and just because they've got you the secret life of Walter Mitty up there today doesn't mean it's gonna be there tomorrow or maybe others decide that you know the original Star Wars movies never existed in the learning and to show the special editions young and then you'll be there been head against the wall like every other you Trufant as I come on anyway-account point is you can't trust them cationic interest to be there next year in five years away at 10 years so what happens when they're gone so people the counterargument that is okay will be other services they can start opening take their place in but will they will have the same catalogue exactly what they have that one movie that you really want that that that one album you've always wanted you rely on them you trust them you give them the control but the funny thing is because there is no real ownership but the funny thing is that storing at home that has a whole different level of trust problems do you trust that the hard drive your story on a solid-state drive restaurant is about to fall over like it's gonna like have a part with failure or get corrupted I mean that's got HFS plus net solid as a rock you know neither to Syracuse anyway so it's funny or I unite as my Blu-rays and I hope I have a system set up will feel pretty confident in so I have 24 TB external USB hard drives and so I a rip to rip the wind and then I have a mirror to the other one every night and then on top of that I a subscriber crash plan reply back up and then I backed up my ribs into the cloud Rosemount wideband with the high year since I have three copies of everything you know and into everything in my slab I have three copies of everything everything I made from macro drive of the copies but as acute pain you were to manage you still I actually what I mean that's that's that's hard-core but you know what three is a good minimum not my problem is that most of my media I've got something I 8 TB ion only mutiny in a 12 TB of storage of this model used I think I'm only using about nine of it arm and that's mostly video bites there is audio in their these pod casts and there is a milky podcast my 55 years ago because well why not is always good time as the builder lie so you know the point is that you assess what you do the point is that I can't do anything I am a digital anyway so what I tend to do is if I got stuff that is not media so documents of work on software I've written you whatever I will and far obviously family photos and family videos back them up onto Blu-ray discs I keep them in a fireproof safe I recognise is not in assessing the same building therefore it's not geographically protected from a fire a single incident like an asteroid hitting the house but I'll run the numbers analogous to that statistically I argue I would rather have an off-site backup like you've got my crash plan that there is no way with my ADSL one connection on 380 4K that that air can happen in I had iTunes match I signed up to that and I let backup my 4050 gig whatever Hegarty is music library and it took one and 1/2 months and it's still at the end of it screwed up side as I gave up matters everything better than ours monitoring bad about streaming this beautifully put it's good I mean honestly arm ISI can't do correctly I really do or anything like it I'd love to maybe someday when he owed the presence meets where I live then that year who knows but for the moment I'm stuck with hard drives so bottom line is that that's that's the weather trust for the part is the effort for the download option is that if my hard drives dies I'm living with the real possibility dollars everything on the knife that happens while shrug Odea I've still got me over a bunch of the originals I can was re-rip the DVDs Blu-rays if I have to do our I'd rather not but you know hey if that happens is what happens because I'm not gonna buy another set of them are just backup hard drive that I've already got it sort of yet so that you management is to submit that's exactly right as I come I'm at home punch out right I don't have to do work on computers or hang on yesterday and it's like yet so streaming solves that problem but you hand over the ownership to the people streaming the content you have nothing you possess nothing and you owe them everything so that's the trade-off for a DRM truly on the content but streaming more honest I feel like we understand the relationship I start paying you start giving me things arm unit as opposed to iTunes and also I buy a lot of movies of iTunes and stream them arm unite tactically on rate so dumb my borrowed arm by arm in a survey proposition okay with now the book you're part of the tree of a city with streaming it will be kinder is is that management aspect is that I know how to worry about pumping some story about for me but arm exchange this is cover grab bag rate you know I subscribe to ghostly strings of scripts as networks are mine Hulu on each bill girl are I have beats music and audio out subscriber Google music and solicitor was the power's most testing a different existing services among moral limited antiunion you never quite know some of the responses that the HBO was not his revenge from each bill girl arm moral member that adding things and deploying and removing anything like Netflix Hulu Oryza like a roulette rate with even some of his extreme services in our reserve rule out like it I want to play assignment beats a day that I played forever and ever it was gone directly up was there in just this once on the soccer on that's why the complications is as Ollie's arm the media are licensing and in Alaska is one of the many more are moving parts and the whole streaming bag is as full legal aspect are so you think you have ever met CFO mix of you will be any really want to be yours and be yours forever and then you know you need to either physical media rip it our story to back it up all the staff you have to love the movie you love the piece of media to want to do that are you know I can just do know you you like police Academy was by I have a hard time in a reptile neither them and copy them (love everything rates so arm is rigorously in all things in a digital media as it takes away that this specialness of owning you know Elizabeth scrolling a vinyl record in or having a physical artefact thereby I think we can have some that back in that industry makes things mix mimics media cheap rate like no suddenly I'm the first is your Spider-Man isn't all that valuable because agonises Paula into what I do is open moral limited out so Spider-Man its vibrant wine and there are something that you really lovely eyes and have access to like it we remove his then the cherish that you do arm do things to make sure yours have absolutely right and I think that's that's also the big difference arm just to stay again back to Sunnyside just before about DRM is that streaming is essentially as a form of DRM but when you buy a when you buy a movie any written story like you saying like I've done you've done is that you you actually still own that these are physical immediately taken away from you and provide houses and burned down it with them then you know you still got that for as long as it lasts whereas if you compare and contrast that with our I'm gonna go and pay to see you have the latest Avengers movie ironmen movie whatever the heck in the theatres well you you pay to see it once in that environment you can't take it with you and so if they stop showing the movie tomorrow well tough luck you've dismissed a chance and and that's that that's more of the difference between down now downloading versus streaming and has different expectations and I guess it is important to understand that upfront so any case as 1/3 angle I want to look at this and that's that the angle of the of cost is a cost I don't mean the difference between our yet is cheaper to stream something in terms of it cost me 10 bucks a month let's save the Netflix act I've no damage next week Netflix costs a month but are a box 9 a couple years I guess thousands of sheep you select let let's call Tim Lyttleton bus nice round number from the arm anyway but yes and some nominal value each month versus followed by one movie it's 20 bucks and iTunes you know arm or its 20 it's also $20 Blu-ray down at Best Buy or wherever heck I may be at the time the best price of the blood Blu-rays and you are good I was checking I actually haven't been to a Best Buy arm that in any do you know as much I didn't didn't think I was still thereunder says when I was gone and Best Buy IIK admin arm a bit of larger shops when I was over North America bits I don't siding going to Best Buy anyway okay so arm ongoing forms of tractor yes) so cost because of cost yes so I'm not at the third the cost relative cost of the media I'm not mad that all one talking about is the cost to stream download so if you download it you download it once you never have to download it again if you stream it and instrument more than once there is an additional cost to that is also an additional cost usually if you get part way through the movie you have to stop and start again it'll have to backtrack a little bit so any additional costs as an unfortunate have to start from the beginning again you that's can be more of a problem so the problem with streaming is that it hides that cost every repeat lesson because nothing is maintained locally you're down to downloading it again so the first time it's you is an even game but every subsequent time and cost you money but how much money is the question and Lois comes back to where you live and I know that we will torment us before we started the show actually and that is in my case and in Australia we have a service was the biggest problem is simply the balance of population to surface area of the country is not in our favour because we have seen like 29 we over 30 million now something like that anyway that many million people better the US it is what 350 million selling like that a lot so Bruce spread out your eye sticks I'll sure but only my point is that in in America that the physical if you is that you don't include our Alaska in this the visit that that the area of the United States and as the economy United States up most Alaska that is very very similar to the service area of Australia so you know where we are both very big countries it's just that some yellow you have 10 times the population and then some so that's means that you have much much higher demand and economies of scale therefore work out more in your favour so arm near Japan is another example where they've got a much smaller surface area and I am still have a reasonably large population so again the balances in their favour is it's a lot easier to invest in lots of fibre-optic cables going everywhere lots of big data centres the NCO switches and exchanges and some soap for off me living in Australia unfortunately I'm way behind the eight ball because economically it's just more expensive and assist the reality of economies of scale and you'll never escape that here so I'm paying each month on paying $40 every month for 200 gig on ADSL one which is snipe by most modern standards is slower is rubbish really useful if you have a time hitting that man with i.e. I do I never I have never had it I've I think the most ever got in a month was about hundred and 45 gig and that was when there was like Xcode releases plus a butter firmware, what's going on right now I see I will be this month but anyhow our works at about $0.20 per gig per month now what's interesting is if we then shift that the mobile so now mount cellular and I'm paying and because it is difficult to judge plans about the dislike and do a delta between two iPhone plans so roughly works out to a difference of $23 per month to get an extra 2 GB of download and that works out at $11.50 per gig per month so that's no competitor $0.20 that is a heck of a lot more money that's a little massive so the thing is that with streaming if on a mobile device streaming simply makes no sense at all whereas if I'm in a house that's the only time I could even consider streaming and even so ADSL ones bandwidth restricts me to what I can actually feasibly stream because otherwise I mean I hit stream on HD because the trailers on Apple TV you know they stream so you click on the HD trailer site are now I clicked on the HD and solicit their buffering for like 15 minutes and then you'll start seeing the first 20 seconds maybe the trailer 30 seconds and stop and buffer for another 15 minutes it's ridiculous so you know I was the high bandwidth is sure to need be yeah I outweighed click on the SD version young artist nearby for five minutes staring just as terrible what are you North America will want to what you blue night dialogue is still being here I am it and interested in five years ago I owed a rough pageant back home for a few months and my mom still had dialogue in a 6K rustic love and even then New Delhi stroller webpages was I was the impossible guy these days yet everything assumes you've got decent family and so much the control of the highly compressed JPEG is on my website now no bigger than Carina by 300 to save your page load time right now but will still do with Armitage bits and because we have on with a lot of readers on in Australia New Zealand and in the rule United States is of that reason we are we to heavily compressor images in email vision size down and we are in order retirement downloads will we are somewhere or stray somewhere to mention how big modalities because for a surprising amount of people that is still an issue here I am on behalf of everyone who is unlimited bandwidth thank you that's that's what I'm talking about you know people think about it because you you're right people still are an absent situation so you know that that the thing is because those the numbers I described before the whole $0.20 a given month the landline in 1150 giga month for the cellular yet that's that's you Australia figures I and I don't expect you to pull numbers off. You had that I'm imagining that the base of my understanding anyway North America that the quote is particularly when you're out and about on 4G let's say a little bit more generous than than what I have to pay was that without the accurate arm sleeve 4G you applicant does otherwise pay the Verizon bill self that's fine and I forget the reason why hundred 20 bucks a month for both of us and it's its plan we have unlimited text and limited voice and then the deed I think we sure like to get extra material is now in use 24 and we drop down to because I currently live the house anymore and she has Wi-Fi work on an order I'm so that was that was before it gets 40s month and so it's cheaper and now I don't know but how much birds arm baseless figures made about half what I'm paying for the centre roughly 1/2 of saviour you will I do know that's arm in the landline side you guys a heck of a lot better off because you said you I think you said you had come cast the right you we we we have conquered much of the United States write something that a lot that's a lot cheaper than what I'm what I'm shelling out for and I think you've you said you had a much higher governing I got to IT only to a gig arm takes my bandwidth on the bit that that you own your case you're saying you handle a bit more than I think you 300 cell but with route all the time because I get 60 Mb down on the as is pretty amazing in another Bragg was what it worked consistently sometimes some days it doesn't arm usually does the egg but it was a very 60 arm like the drop arm because two houses down and get away 20 down at best and even before before I about mould modem and motorhome rat and a new router are we we has like 20 Mb download is just getting Byron modem increase the speed pay that much well yeah so sensitive through because of the crappy dish at home broadband by your own cable modem are more ruler you will you will thank me later arm so it is extremely variable in United States like arm in or revealing lists of frustrating we have a local telephone company and in that the rumours telephone company don't quite understand that they are to admit to a communication's company and they got several million dollars in federal government to arm put in vibrant and they did accept the fibre you have to have a landline before they were even Waitaki about the fibre plan and be it's ridiculous expensive as the UI is like 100 bucks a month like 6 MB downward the fibre of SIDS or speed and acceptance more expensive a the mind boggles terrible as criminal you should be helpful for us in as much as they can't gas it really is better best only option around fair enough yeah it is it is interesting and it's a sort of thing as a gig at my makes me want to move but arm to a better house I go we would got this how Stalinist assessment and have been a 60 meg down the only whilst looking at your shaking head thinking what the pool the pool out the back when you get right because like the wiring so crappy and so he remained as a the technologies losing deliver Internet when built with immigrant mind the back. Down the either 70s and evening visits Rasul cable meant for a SD TV signal or its in a copper wiring meant for arm telephone calls it a you know that the horror of the horror were on the network and at a residential level has not come up with work should be mortified another pilot no definitely not it's more like warrant output in the ground and then forget about 400 years she but some okay cool so bottom line though is that in reality our wide Internet is always very cheap and was in it which means if you be streaming the most most likely application is streaming when you are within range of Wi-Fi or whether your oil devices connected to our the Anita network in our local incense and intranet within your house that is going to get you onto the Internet via a landline solution because it's the only way to economically really justified so bottom line is that if I disorder summarise the work will the way I see it is that downloading is the more economical solution but it comes with a lot of overhead with managing your own staff and I think that is a supplement streaming can be really handy to have for those occasions where you want access to something that you don't you don't know you'll need and I heard some people will use streaming as a discovery service so signed what was tribal to music from this artist never heard of visits it is low cost of inventory so you can listen to a whole songs and if you like it you could always go by their album through through Amazonia through iTunes or Google musical whatever whereas doing that the other way only iTunes and what they are 32nd 60 seconds arm snippets out of the songs I think extracts 9697 but the point is that you can't listen to it over and over inside the I really like it and I don't is not really designed for that is designed for I heard this tuna shopping mall are not sure what it is callousness exit from iTunes are united by it's not really good for discovery whereas the streaming is great for that and you with with Netflix and stuff you also person that watches a movie and you don't ever want to watch it again you not like in on a movie hoarder and so now I'm for sale a movie or a longer bunch moves and are made of any watch wants and I may never watch again but there there just in case I want to watch again anyway amid that sort of attitude you like a set of a digital audio option with your creditors before I have the previous episodes of life that gave at the point is that arm I think that downloading still is the better option it's just that streaming can be a supplement to that and can be very handy supplement to that is the opposite mindset guy I like the freedom of choice that you be a streaming that you are you go Netflix is stalking used to because like we have this problem what other likeable roughly 30-ish likeable generation have this problem with the go Netflix and has been more time looking very thing than actually watching staff and arm wrestling it all will get better but it is still prompt meanwhile brothers have made in the grip of the stuff and you would the age of Blockbuster and that the movie real story to pick one will be what you sell your everything it was carefully rebutted marks you know year review givers review unmarried or semi-thumbs up guy are very carefully choose your movie and my brother who grew up on streaming just watching a movie that sites is what terms of what something else is in the twice about it in that through the smart way to deal with an equally perfect right you limit everything like it arm so arm but free of me are a I much prefer streaming if it's available but a lot of psychology has to depend on your own network limitations like about in your shoes I was a restore line in LA 1 Mb connection i.e. I would history with this terrible terrible for you because like when you have on that slower connection as it is is tenable and dazzling are Mr it is a low drumstick for granted nowadays they are supporting the Internet and it is most damages works flawlessly in place instantly and looks nice even then arm it will go arm you know your stuff about it but its purpose is like the quality degrees alive you can just tell it on the things they don't put a lot of resources into arm and interpersonal frustration but still felt the alternative United States is in I would have to rent a more extensive cable box are in or even then arm the quality of cable TV here in the area to be extra for HD and evenly do it still doesn't look great because they compress the signal so much as a really even with spotty quality that streaming sometimes can provide up to looks better than what the cable company provides over the wrong box of the 1980s but boxy technology that the compress you absolutely and are I hear you saying and I guess that might might might worldview is on this issue is is heavily tainted by my act at the accessibility of streaming media but what what what what I find frustrating about this is that by the time the rest of the world catches up then we will be left behind again because let let's assume that they then give us that I get in the next out there wiring anything in a stroke or the national broadband network or the NBN for short and it's no fibre to close to your home and then copy the last Neo last mile whatever but the idea is that you can probably get fibre all the way home, costume orbit as it have decent download rates by then will be streaming 4K yellow in North America because the bandits already that far ahead will be streaming 4K and then after that will be God no AK 16 K 30 2K God knows how many cake you won't be seven speakers it'll be 700 speakers and eras not only the same unless the whole rooms got shakers under the floor you mean honestly the way it's going I just have this rather pessimistic view that will always be a little bit behind that that the problem with streaming is that it almost kills itself the more people that do it and the more the technology pushes forward it then restricts the number of people that have access to it because of the congestion because of the bandwidth requirements it sort of near but you know what I'm not sure wherever the result is like it depends right doesn't has too many variables states is that it is put these back of reason and the specific reason was because they want to keep the streaming being from becoming any better than solving your right ultimately it will kill itself because arm the chemical little occurrence in the United States yet I mean they are the old Congress arm you know this this is unrelated because unrelated with the other prisoners a year's net neutrality regulation is really probably want to fully commercialise the Internet and all the way and in the cable companies favourite and is one of power the American people complain just because arm we have a company lobbyist in charge of the the Federal Communications commission you can email states that stock and you know and and this is the frightening thing is that you know that the hand for companies that own the pipes really are going to control Internet arm so arm I think really hope this is so arm is cynical but be accurate is the joy hope the listening as these are as departed companies like Apple who arm can negotiate with with this company like for instance arm can't cows back when there were arm throttling networks arm unit knows that if you're on the Apple TV because Apple has a special deal Netflix Roubaix have their own stream with the Apple TV and it was one that Comcast it's just in mass worth so you try to know what something on the pier position three and it would take a few minutes for it again except in fuzzy and arm of the staff and in the router from the Apple TV and are in the rumour is now is that Apple's builders and CBMs as talking with solutions Comcast brought something to do with Apple TV and so are unfortunately this program would be in for the future streaming is group B arm it wasthe best option is ordering have to shack up the company like Apple who has the pockets and the drive and negotiating skills to arm to get around these things and its still depressing yes it is depressing is that I mean it sounds like an alternative discussion about the neutrality but now I do we do follow this know a lot of people over here following it with a lot of interest because it has wide ramifications is the sort of thing that's arm near it it's disturbing that in any case arm I think that the ultimate answer to downloaded versus streamed is that's if you can get away with streaming everything and you want to take that weight off your shoulders then by all means stream it but I think that the issues of trust and ownership are ones I may never get over even if I do get extra bandwidth and that's a personal choice bits are now that everyone's centreline different place but I still stand by I do believe that from an efficiency point of view and I guess that's engineer in me that this won't die and that is from an efficiency point of view are downloading is is a better option but you you are taking on a lot more are mucking around in time and effort that you otherwise wouldn't have to and you lose a lot of spontaneity so perhaps the ultimate answer is always a bit of both that to you in the ends arm on the Internet I don't think any one person can get anyone answer and so maybe that's where we have to leave that discussion but to anyway under outliers like residences in the Bradley Chambers I don't want to an all-time more modern moral Ltd it costs like 70 bucks for Europe when ineligible as you account the cost like four dollars so that it very quickly as they grew on to 2 pulley PR that subscription so arm was an outlier that's you know that's not what most people are streaming the unit as it depends on the media depends on arm and present the price of three depends on the price of acquiring that media and storing it right arm absolutely so well thing is logically touched on something that you want to talk about it briefly the beginning as well was some streaming within the house and I suppose there would this two ways of doing it in and the first ways that is Bluetooth arm and the second way is Wi-Fi and I guess the funny thing is that I realise technically at streaming Bluetooth this, like a point-to-point link which it sort of it's more of like a virtual digital sort of a tether then it is sort of streaming I seek streaming is like that I'm sending packets over a network in Nassau Wi-Fi as well as Bluetooth in there that isn't quite so much it's like a point-to-point is a postal point to multipoint but you I guess maybe splitting hairs their property — other games but he has better irrespective arm I got a hug over rabbit what I hate about Bluetooth is that you know the issues I've had with certain Bluetooth speakers in the house Medtronic my iPhone a play through them is it because going to want a time you connect one includes the other one off and then some of them will remember one device is a priority other ones will remember the last connected devices priority and every Sam speaker seems to be different like that I've got we got Bluetooth in the car and it behaves differently to the Bluetooth in the speakers in the kitchen so you is crazy I and overextended standard know it's not and it's just it's insane but it does work once it is connected it works really well it's quite reliable and the aids I don't have any complaints works pretty well but one of the things I did try are a while ago way back when it was first an option was arm was a airplay to our audio to a set of speakers through old AirPort Express I have is the power brick style like public and steroid style huge wants and is plugged in in through a 3.5 mil arm Jack into the back of some speakers and it worked reasonably well but the problem was that I still had a had an old Wi-Fi router was even and it was a was at ABG I think and it wasn't an Apple one arm and something you that's right I'm trying my chronology right yes it was and is since then I've upgraded to a Time Capsule which is some dual band and and I now use the our AirPort Express as a secondary networks I try and keep that which is an end network but I as I keep it off the rest and the staff for all the other miscellaneous non-end devices if you're not a means of slow network and I got a fast network and the reason is because of the streaming because I've gone beyond the audio and I'm now onto I've got three Apple TV is in the house to 7:20 PM ones either one 1081 and Apple TV are only up to I can't call now I mean you know I do I stand corrected one 720 into Tennessee want any help irrespective the point is that I found that recently arm because we got two MacBook Airs in the house and they were connecting over Wi-Fi and even the dual band in a wheel having issues with the streaming because it was too much bandwidth because we were streaming from the laptop connected to the hard drives that have a library on it to you and Apple TV whilst another laptop was also going on on the same network as well as the other Apple TV's and it was choking and this is dual band and it was choking Montrose 1080p video so the whole streaming thing seems to work well in theory but you need to make sure you keep you Wi-Fi clean it if you go to AC I suppose I don't think the current Apple TV support a secretly from wrong know that the best option that is is time zone at that's what you do you if you have that option at no point does what I want why I put my MacBook Airs onto arm ethernet I bought a gigabits arm it was is you eBay it some cheap brand from some part of arm of Asia I don't care as I love this thing it's like this three USB port arm you three USB three port, got this tongue twister USB 33 ports of that plus a gigabit ethernet port so I'd like plugged in and it's taken all the traffic off the Wi-Fi and it leaves Wi-Fi free for streaming at the Apple TV's and works beautifully so that I do anyway you might put my problem is on the desk because so site or avenues of external speakers I have my MacBook Pro and is on a laptop stand that angles the speakers as to whether the some pretty good I'm not an ideal file I used to arm back in my PC gaming days I had an entire home theatre receiver this giant dust that I had and I had arm home theatre speaker is right there on my desk is connected to the load the PC via optical ayatollahs link and so that you as it was hard all year I was a ridiculously big desk I am in the way it was like 12 feet long self arm nowadays I have bought the idea so not bow the speakers but that the prom have most wells do is podcast anyway so it's in no ideal fidelity isn't that big an issue have anything on listening music I want to reassure well I have a pair of sunny your file you your headphones that I can put on and on the some pretty good the prom I have is that there are so many apps nowadays are ideal apps that are only available for iPhone or the better versions are only on iPhone like arm beats music arm they have a I'm guessing that this soon they will have some fruit Mac need of client hopefully in a recent rebilling dollars and something here we hope but the year the RDB web client is terrible when it runs on Flash and to its missile features no bushel codes et cetera arm you know that I will listen to anything on bids I have to do it from our phone or iPad and arm also there is a number of our podcast interesting podcast apps than trying out arm and then I can play those in the Mac very easily in self egg recitals because terrible arm and in every way in but my my Sony cans don't go into the polymers grazes like redeploying the iPhone arm positive sort of notifications things my Mac and then are as obvious as initial struggling with arm in wanting a tried arbitrator aerofoil arm which is a isn't needed out by Rogan Uber cardio out are that their utility becomes aerofoil called for speakers which turns remark ostensibly into inherently receive any you would think it would be the solution to the problem as a grisly 10 second delay on airplay was annoying but then be utterly reliable and sometimes in airplay to your maximum you can start it restart it for speakers I thought I you under string with the father having a disability speaker at my desk rate in the neck my iPhone and my Mac to bite arm in L as you said you only have one. To it at times so that progress was near and so looked into the police speakers and arm in theory are that would be great but the problem is some you know that only it is fine airplay speak of less than 3 to $400 that is reliable and in all the know there is one extreme act makes it et cetera some of Barry's appropriate gaskets plugs and is like 80 bucks by either reviews keep saying they are sometimes you connect to its encampment well that doesn't cancel that works every time a moss appointment thing works by another AirPort Express and employing under my desk so I can have a reliable employed by simply speakers and its annoying problem and not wireless the wireless". Later friends my wife to a discovery and iPhone 5 C rubric there while back and arms as yet of the repairman arm speaker dark in the bathroom as she likes to listen to music washes and shower and provides didn't work anymore so we got her a Bluetooth adapter that the only phone to connect to it I can connect my phone to you with EII and I understand exactly what you mean it it's just honestly think your final conclusion regarding your particular issue is the best way to go for the time being and until until the software catches up and you know that there is a school of thought that says if it's a speaker or a screen I should be able to screw our stream to it and honestly think that that is that is the right attitude but it's just not there yet I'm not sure this because there was so much at the BWC whether or not the whole arm continuity thing will will also provide that I don't know enough about that yet I look into it but unfortunately for the time being what would work would be edges getting another airport express and honestly are getting a cheap pair of speakers is still reasonably good quality and to spend a lot on the property and up costing you half what a reasonable airplay speak with all integrated would cost you now so in a detachable space on your desk and your couple extra cables but you know so maybe is not as minimalist as you might like that you know how long as you desk again did you keep that desk no no no arm births that is also another one I have now is a custom-made ones but it worn through feet wide is covered crab already because I have a like arm on Apple TV testing stuff on my desk silo converter boxes need to be mostly tourism and various things are to settle on my desk at school arm whatever shelf they get a solution hanging from their work again well arm and that we might telling what wrap it up at that point I think with the link with covered so much as anything else you'd like to add as quickly know you think that we streamed everything we have we streamed the episode they go so he will talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter at John Geagea and I check out my writing it to Texas if you'd like to send any feedback please use the feedback form on the website and that's we also find the show notes the episode in the pod casts dogmatic you can follow pragmatic show on Twitter to see show announcements and other related materials are also like to thank my arm special guest hosts are job centres and what's the best way for people to get in touch with you Josh are on Twitter at G centres GC ENT heiress are you also are fine into the stomach arm or a job centres duck arm and arm a book to control Apple TV is a technical book stuck on awesome fantastic are also like to personally thank Winthrop studios were sponsoring pragmatic if you're looking at some curb appeal to your product or company remember specifically visit this URL went from to get a great result at half price and that's it thanks for listening everyone and thank you Josh think you anytimeďż˝
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Josh Centers

Josh Centers

Josh of TidBits also blogs and wrote Take Control of Apple TV.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.