Pragmatic 33: The Shopfront Window Is Still The Same Size

19 August, 2014


Loyalty to a single platform can be a risky business position for developers. Russell Ivanovic of Shifty Jelly joins John to discuss his experiences on Android vs iOS and shows that putting Android willingly in your blindspot may cause you to miss out.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic application technology will trade us with great ideas transponder products and services and can change our lives nothing is as episode sponsored by management makers of helpful and visit matrix or more information about the wraps but the chemo legion in which desktop I'm sick name angler and usher if you visit that URL you can use the code pragmatic 25 pragmatic the word to find the numbers in the shopping cart to save 25% on any management product was of animal during the show on your host John GG and I join today with my guest host our Russell of attic space at present Russell I think technically for the Eastern European disadvantage but I'll accept the Russell of Ottovich got noticed I like to make sure say people's names Reitzel is not because I could such a terrible last name and never gets GG wrong and they insert these and els and I don't know why but they just are so globally severe and inner L after the G blush and talk like none of which is copycat enough idea anyway yesterday go last names arm okay so far before you get stuck into today's topic are I just wanted to quickly so say thank you to arm for some iTunes reviews just to say hi and thank used to sneak J from Australia are Nathan yelled 14 from the US and Darren OY from Singapore for that lovely orange visa thank you very much for those anyway the point is and that something to you Darren okay so I specifically wanted to get you want to talk about something that it's a similar rarity I look around the DR develop space particularly at the indie developer space and on and I look at people that have got essentially a foot in both camps that the camps meaning one and in a like iOS and the Apple camp and android in the Google camp and I think it's a good a good topic to explore is why people become so obsessed with one platform versus the other and why there is resistance to supporting both and the reasons and justifications that people seem to throw around as to why you should do one and and not the other and I think you are the perfect man to talk to about this why can we do try I can send the perfect person but you got me so I can't wildly do is find no one exercise awkward so I case how many other indie developers that are you aware of that actually have a foot in both camps is not aware of any of the top of my head are mildly thinking that is actually to some last-minute things and one half that I can think of my head sooner so the half would be Mark Edwards and I him from Mr Django fandango yes and he has his skull preview up as is available on android but it's funny aneurysm how's that is because he got us to build so that's that's why he's the half LEED recognised that a very very early stage that it is designers on android to win and they benefit from is up and the one other thing I guy called Justin Williams yes year so he is in the windows fun as Albany definitely does in a cross-platform development and he's just like a one-man army really okay you look at all your people are known there either in in the Apple camp although the Google camp load balancing too much else in between yes interesting is that our and I are I sort of ice to psycho soap it's hard to know where to start this discuss this conversation because it's a little bit circular so what I think I dissuaded before it must really start pillar part is thinking about this goes beyond a software that will focus on software obvious because it's you you and me and I buy software guys but arm by am in a sense I don't claim to be I was developed by the right software for living so anyway point is are you can this applies across the board to all sorts of fields of of of human endeavour I guess the want of a better way of saying immediate classic cars like if you're an Australian Ford versus Holden that's one example right there are politics again labour versus liberal minnow or co-Democrat versus Republican soft drinks Coke versus Pepsi you meet in the list goes on and on life I really thought about I think there would be so many things people do is get invested in either a brand or in a certain viewpoint about a certain a certain platform or in a just a stick with it may justify disabled IR I'm sticking with this in his my reasons half of the reasons that aren't even logical so anyway starting off with arm some of the articles you've written because I think the one thing that I do reading your blog W Lincoln show notes to this is the fact that you often take the stance of Eyman iOS developer & developing for android and he is actually a reality check about android and try and put the facts on the table and two examples I live recently as bug bug splitting and the android screen fragmentation myth are long-time fanatical but very good one so kind as to ask what what some what is it the sort of compels is compelled you to sort of put put that out there are things that I had my personality located ever since a sort of join the workforce I found the term are really can't stand it when people take an opinion that they can't justify or they use a you know just common, help with them to Tina back it up you note my friend said this and I had that in the same saying diskettes repeated over and over again and you can a lot about it and an Apple side and to be fair happens the other way around to you meets a hard-core entry people in adjusters as fanatical an artist is something that just rubs me the wrong way about that buckets it's fine to prefer one device or another it's invited to prefer one company over another but to make up all these weird and wonderful reasons why you have a preference that maybe have a basis in reality the silly mother just X-Men I think it's it's interesting like I and I enjoy writing I would say brilliant at everything right but I do enjoy like I enjoy sort of inner writing articles and just writing to the various things in I can look at the space and thought it was running at Apple in others there is no shortage of of coverage and is no shortage of good coverage you know it's amazing and then there are people writing about the entrance to things as well but it's a lot more from the perspective of you no new devices new phones new new updates new whatever does no one really sort of taking a more critical look at the the development side of things and that's that's kind of wire started a blog in the first places I just wanted to to cover that a bit more on it it was just before going to Google I was well suffer like a good time to do this right about these things are that all the people I guess that I associate with have never really experiencing a lot of the POS and Mac developers that you really love hanging out with you a great great guys and girls they just they don't have experience in its defence is interesting to write about it and explain the differences and even in some of the things that when you find out about how the other side works you can make you reflect in on how the way things work in Apple side needs you start to think I would be great if you know this worker that if they in this aspect they could be a bit more like Google and this aspect is colonised of the night Google and kind of term to get the best best both of the guests that the longest answer ever to a very simple question I don't think that I was a necessary simple question and I'm glad it is a winter that depth that the the for me what IAI think is so refreshing about it is that it you tend to put the facts on the table and say a perfect example is the screen fragmentation myth because everyone say while all these phones are different sizes what will yes but that doesn't even mean that they're all different resolutions which is what you go mainly are concerned about I would expect and then if you break that down turns out that there is actually not that much variability when you consider the layout tools you got any concern you can specify it is that you should be talkback so I'm on now the repeating back to you what you've written down your article but you 19th soap that specific case it's really not that much extra work this is me again paraphrasing about doesn't delegate isn't an extra lot of that much extra work and it's a bunch of XML files I think you say in the arm I haven't actually use it so I'm against you so here it is not that much extra work really is it to support those screen sizes now it's is the one thing every time we tell someone that we do and redundant and the like are you how you deal with all those different screen sizes and that's the city one of the easiest parts of avenger development is not me being a fan boy to exaggerate there's there's work involved obviously if there was only one screen size would be less work than if there was five but the fact is when you have you know 56 screen sizes and the not very by that much of this may be 40 pixels on the right they might be in a 40 pixels on the bottom or whatever it's not it's not a huge variation to have to deal with them that the tools that Google, built into enter from day one have always catered for the unit they knew there was can be different screen sizes so they built it in from day one so it is funny I find as it is mainly do iOS development United a little bit of Andrew but I was of the main thing that I find that as more and more screen sizes gathered to Iowa city Hunter support on there because it wasn't built in from day one think a lot of people don't realise it they think are the hardest thing about supporting Andrew the screens is not it's is the variation in and software in and the sort of low-level device drivers and hardware and people tweaking the fines that's where android fragmentation really starts to guess rear its ugly head but screen sizes really not an issue buckets is not a thing to support is built into the language is built into like all the tools and it's is the one myth that really bugs me that's that's what people think hard about Andrew developments is really not because it's easier to latch onto because it is very visible and you say what this person's got out a galaxy note with a how big that screen is and this other person has a significant the smaller one or whatever and it's visually easy for the firm for a person to say while you all the iPhone is the same size and these are all different so therefore that's a problem and is very straightforward but the thing it is brought up as well about the versions and the hacking of a curious at all a bit more about that too because when you're designing for iOS generally because Apples updates are much easier for people to get their hands on they therefore be and and of course you that there is no carrier required that people can download them over the air nowadays me Meiji rewind a few years ago and couldn't but now you can at least and some people are therefore generally look at the stats I find look at the stats beforehand but Yates it's quite high as in other people or axial iOS seven right now things like 89% and 90% GIO you would know more than I would now think that's that's a testament to the fact that Apple got that aspect of it at least nailed but that's an advantage sure because you don't worry so much about supporting I was six iOS five or God forbid I was for arm and there's a bunch of functionality that you use in iOS seven is not available as elements how does it compare then with you going back to Willacy was the most popular on entrance 2.3 I think statistically are not shortly has those figures are maybe you are is historically the four above this is by far the most popular device for the moment it's interesting it's it's a double-edged sword because on the Apple side of things it's it's really amazing that we were able to launch our like pocket cast version 4 for an OS that was only just can be released in on the day or two before we are to launch the application and that's you never be able to handle exhibits this is an impossibility but that the double-edged sword part is that dumb that Google is aware of of that issue and they build a lot of backwards compatibility library so let let's say the some new features are coming out in android 4.4 or five point I would have nine times out of 10 I see put that same feature and a support library that you can back port in all the weights are to 2.3 if you really that insane and it it's funny the the Apple the Apple attitude is very much your mommy came to do our update pocket whether for example we wanted to make it six and seven compatible with more than a reason to go iOS seven only with should have to force you know that with older devices to update but it proved so hard to try and support you know both in the same space to try and deal with all the things I was seven only in a similar things if you if you adopt them you can no longer build up privacy exodus becomes an impossibility in its Apples attitude has always been a wadi bother you know I was seven is can be adopted by 90% people just just take I was seven I don't bother and let it bother building that are backwards compatibility so decided at all and that that more often than not is a good thing but can it can come back to Bernie was like we've had a lot of people in on the old pocket whether saying I can't update in a good 3GS or I've got a iPhone 4 and I've heard that I was seven Sloan I don't want to update any think these providers had to say look if it would take me till three months with the development of the for both we made a business decision to go with I was seven unit only and that that had us a little bit but it is the nature of things like on on the Google side of things there there a lot more I guess conscious of backwards compatibility and they've left some interesting over the last year or so as I have a single Google play services on third of you have heard of Samuel so erratic originally to studies library where they could put a few hours of common things that they would have to ship with the OS basically and it's it's got blown out like every month like something something new that I had to enter and they when I shouted to the core and operating system though stick it in this Google play services thing and that's that something about update monthly just through the store and in a Robert at all the devices are nuts whether starting to put a lot of the backwards compatibility stuff and a lot of the new features so you find that even going some like Andrew L almost everything in Andrew Ella's sentence other Google play services library so even if someone was to run in on android 4.0 device used to bow to get a lot of the stuff you get everything is not a magical fairy land some of the new animation stuffers is not in there and feel things that that aren't in there but it's not always about you having the pain of I must have this feature from Andrew 4x4 and I can't I can't do it otherwise but we haven't found a lot of issues we found that once Andrew went version 4 that's one thing started to get good luck we don't support our 2.3 double like is just brass really not with a headache that's the two days it was really the wild West that's when manufacturers like ACC those went to town like and although the hardware drivers and all the software staff including their own to libraries at the Easter conflict with ours and that was a nightmare to talk about what what a nightmare that was in a few traceable android 2.3 than I take my hat off to was that's actually a really good point to arm to expand on because I think that a lot of the momentum behind is the resistance to developing the android started back in the wild wild West days of the of of our 2.12 point acts of android and a lot of that has perpetuated it it has it's built up a momentum and people keep on referring back to than saying while you you enter it's got this scenario so far behind is really not well arm it has been well implemented always looks it looks no cheaper whatever else but if you pick up for a refund running 2.3 a phone running four point miles away up to you 4.4 now and you 4.4 is a it's Jorgen CC from the same manufacturers chalk and cheese and you know it's people, seem to cling on to the way it used to be as a justification for continuing to ignore android which is kind of a bit disappointing you you definitely definitely suffers the whole first impression something I think the problem is when Andrew started to get popular was when I was at its worst are Gaston and all that was in the 2.0 days please please don't email me but it was as modest alternative to the Iowa side of things and it wasn't even a good alternative sorry but until Andrew got to floor like it really wasn't even worth considering is like like a competitor to the iPhone in my opinion anyway free to email Jonathan agree but gave only one you go to the stories before spam and every single comment was like spam links and it was the area was amazingly bad and what happened is Google employed in a people to clean up the Google play store ago these days and it's really sort of professionals at a well-run store they managed to commence a lot of hardware manufacturers to scale back on their the crazy things of that sort of bundled with the OS and find a lot a lot of what they do these days is someone like a Samsung and LG Dave Comstock modifying the chorus and have just started adding their own indexes on top like centre has all that's what justice staff and look away from the video and pauses as useful or as useless as you think those things may be as a developer than no longer heard us enough Samsung appoint some units what just a thing it doesn't affect us at all like is that developers whereas when the user to mess with the core OS is missing the audio playback stuff which they all used to get in there and do for some reason that that's a nightmare to support us. It feels very much based on everything that you're saying and I've read and watched over the last few years is that Google really has been playing catch up on in terms of how do they actually take a product like android when they bought it and turn it into an actual platform and essentially learning all the lessons that Microsoft did are in the last 20 years and I've still been going through in the last three or four years are I would say are as androids become more popular body think year you are definitely so-so though they seem to be and this is all me sort of looking from the outside and I don't I don't know anyone so deep in other Google men men Larry and Sir Council best friends whatever so really arcane dowry and hang up a coffee like once a year and a Carlo Cisco asserts I would really call it a friendship were not in Facebook but is a little but it's it looks to me like when they they first launched it was just your list for this OS out there let's try and make sure that we don't become irrelevant in the the mobile era things but simply run by a separate part of Google that was hardly connected to the rest of Google at all and they can afford their own path and they they ceded a lot of control to manufacturers into inner carriers internal that sort of thing and I met some people argue that had to do that to become popular in a related matter they didn't who knows but that's the direction they went in and you can see a few years down the track that he started to realise that this is really a burn them when Samsung has all the marketshare and they have all the control over your platform and you have virtually none in your charge for your OS and you can't necessarily back then you can even mandate that they you used your apps or whatever that's that's what they started to salute and screws and realise that they need to be smart about the way that she ran this as a platform and an sorter from from two years ago to now consider real change in the way Google has been developing and you are pushing out Andrew to the various manufacturer's they really started to get range the control back like as much is similar Google group are like the poker in a hard open source the android is no longer really an open source OS like you have the open source project in year the majority of the code is in there but all the stuff that makes and/or entities is now proprietary to Google in all the Google apps are although the drivers are gone top of that it's it's all stuff that Google now has control over and that they can go to manufacture and say hey if you want to call this an android device and if you want user apps you have to medal as other standards and that kind of weather means of leveraging the leveraging the synergy Michael Horner is the Esk Azalea you absolutely right and they have taken that control back and that's that has directly driven the improvement of the quality of of android overall so I think that's one of the one things as one so quickly explorers the from a psychological point of view when people are have a belief about a platform or or or a device of something like my said the whole for this is old and copious as Pepsi whatever you in this case android versus iOS as some know you've got this this the motivated reasoning issue which is our I'm in iOS developer let's say I've farm cut my teeth on Objective-C for years at San Marcos which are iOS or unlearning it I was because of the runaway success of of apples platform and the early days the App Store let's say and I am I motivated essentially to continue to become more invested in this ecosystem therefore I am going to justify are beyond your ration rationale and logic I'm going to justify why I am not going to explore android and you think that then becomes a continual reinforcement process such that the more you justify the less likely you are to explore it therefore the more justified you feel ignoring it and it is like having a willing blindspot as an alternative to months I was but I am willingly not looking at you think the majority of people to do this don't necessarily even realise what's happening because what what happens as this is a psychological thing like you are someone has an android phone right and your own experiences with an iPhone so immediately everything that is different and everything that you can't figure out in the first second you put down to bad design like I can't figure out a direct therefore this phone is designed wrong and all when ball down to it or you really saying is this does not work like an iPhone and the things that I expect on the phone that this doesn't do exactly the same are wrong and it's it's a kind of attitude NEC even when people cover the end result of things and even people like a smart as in a John Gruber and people that you can see when they cover that side of things is the massive blindspot that these guys have because they may be spend like a week with OS although they read some articles in the they just can have the background of you know they are the people that have sought to surround themselves in a with Apple and the culture of Apple for so long that that that almost becomes the lens I guess they view the rest of the world through and the devil is a worldview that goes goes with Apple ecosystem environment I'll settle into that as I got my first arm I love doubling the PowerBook G4 one of the aluminium ones so what that thing was hot enough to fry like eggs and bacon on the back of think it was amazing and it was as shiny as aluminium and iPhoto in for a few years I was just of the opinion that everything that Apple did was was amazing you know they could do absolutely no wrong but he is not the sort of step back a little bit and I guess developing an android side of things and working with Google scholar shown us that Apple is the company you know it's it's not a religion is not a sports team is not a is this not a brand of car that you have to love like no matter what they do good things and they do bad things and I feel like when you're as enthusiastic about technologies I'm Yukon of limiting yourself if you only have a look at the things that Apple built in other rebuild cool things to always look the same that I was work the same but clinical I sent to actually write night I tend to arm look at technology has I've been using no policy of his PalmPilot sees the Windows CE on a Cassiopeia many years ago are those you love Cassiopeia arm mind you competitor where I can and iPhoto or an android anything these days is not God I still like that but anyway it was cool the time the palm with its graffiti thing, this proceeding is also I know I know really nothing more sufficient I hate that I love graffiti a time but geez I hate it now and anyway nevermind that are but yes so the thing is that I tend I've become very invested in Apple and I say that because our I become locked in a bit to their ecosystem somehow use iTunes for everything I've got my use pages in numbers although I do still have our Microsoft office because I need to have that for work purposes you know I find myself leaning more towards the simplicity of the of the pages in the numbers and that's all that's all well and good but you know it's more more platform locking yes I can actually go and access through a web browser and and work on the pages document the numbers documents and web browser on and went on the monochrome book or honour on a Dell or whatever running Windows it's not the same problem that that's true but it hasn't made of support gadgets was resonated with a native appetite so got iPhone of an iPad you know my kids got iPads always got a MacBook Air now you I'm in heavily invested Apple so again you know Apple love me and I keep giving the money but in his the but at some point there will be a compelling functionality of some kind I don't know what it is not even trying guess or predict but at some point this can be something that is going to draw me away from that and so be so good and so much more advanced in some respect that I'm gonna say right that said arm it's time for me to shake it up and move onto the next big thing siphon find myself at the moment with Apple I'm still very impressed with the iPhone I have played with android devices a few times but they haven't had that thing that featured on that I'm looking for that site this is the next thing that can make my life so much easier I need to I need to have that and then it's worth the pain of withdrawal of switching from one to the other of a sense that my position anyway I guess I patient if you like amazing virtually the same place so something like MacBook Air Mac Pro Apple TV Mac mini running the television my whole house is full of Apple products Mrs money like the phone that I choose to use those that are the motor works and Ilya is the first of android phone applied with that I should refer to the offer and I like the screen sizes of 4.7 it's just what the next fungus is rumoured to be but also but arm is nice it is not as little features like when it's Bluetooth going to do what I can tell hey if the watchers and arranged in lofted defiance I get like one press access to to my phone without having put in a pin number I get lots of little features are the thing doesn't offer doesn't do and it's not it's not mind blowing the different know a lot of the same apps the use and I were so here as well and a lot of them have like really good equivalents but there are some things I miss so things like iMessage in a really annoying because the entire family and extended friends are all on iMessage and the first question you get is you know what is your wattage thing to blue green are you hazarded that those differences on both sides but this is the find that I choose to use enough refinery we'll have like I wanted what is a phone what it won't keep you off assist and I will play with new stuff and I like this number to get the reverse of that I go into work and I'm surrounded by the engineers that have all got android phones and Michael Harlow just on iPhone and unlike if you guys whatever you know but some before we go any further as I quickly talk about sponsor of this episode which is our many tricks are matrix are a great software development company his apps do well be guessed at many tricks there apps include Butler chemo leach movement which desktop curtain time sink name angler and usher this so much to talk about each of these apps so what we'll do is focus on a different one each week and this week we'll talk about usher in usher is your personal movie assistant was a mean exactly well usher can access every video stored in iTunes aperture iPhoto or anything that hard drives on your Mac allows you to easily group sort tag and organise them all the way at so ask identify video using Amazon property information support playlists and smart playlists as well if it plays in QuickTime usher complaint directly or if you install Perry and flip the marquee can play even more is no need to convert anything into an iTunes formats in our quotes are in order watch it leveraging some of the same technology that drives name angler which is another my favourite apps and talked about previously also many tricks it allows complex file renaming using that meta data from within usher you to leave the app to do if you were fixup filenames and stops great honestly this so much that she can do if you've got a video collection at scattered across different programs and drives not like I do then usher can help straighten it all out try to download the trial and have a play with usher yourself you can download the free trial arm from many tricks or one US HDR and you can try it out yourself if you do have deformable that it is available from that page or through the 25 US and if you visit that URL before 17 August so the still a few days ago you can take advantage of a special discount of their very helpful apps exclusively for pragmatic business simply use pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic than the numbers to 5 in the discount code box in the shopping cart you receive 25% off this offer is only available pragmatic lessons for a limited time to take advantage of it while you can thank you to many tricks for sponsoring pragmatic Russell so what are things that we thought we touched on little bit is some well have the advantages and disadvantages of each platform in your experience and your specific experience which platform did you go with first and is can you tell me a little bit about what attracted you to the other platform and how long that gap was between you went on one platform before then adding the next one is you intimate mobiles of the I'm talking about the essence of our mobile yes some time out some android and iOS and a foreign correctly that are to have your apps available on both platforms and eclairs are pocket weather and pocket casters are right structures any trap to make these dates are well yes so you so we went to the iPhone first and the reason for that is a guess it was a really exciting platform back in 2008 you know arm Apple released the unit I was 2.0 with with the app store in a bag and there was no sort of amazing success stories is no Angry Birds stuff existed but for the first time in invasive forever and it was finally a way to get applications onto a mobile phone that was really easy and in I guess pain-free you know we'd me personally I played around with an anathema J to ME and all the solicitor solutions firm yes the building at the back then you could make it happen you could maybe get people to download it from your website you can maybe have 10 different versions of any can maybe convince a manufacturer to bundle in the base as a developer you're always on the back foot there was no easy way to get applications and was phones and it wasn't even in a phones or without amazing that you could write in a really good in-depth applications for so anyway long story short arm I got a brother-in-law his is an awesome guy in the we decided to import some some iPhones from the US you know when the original iPhone came out the US and was in Australia I'd like to meet him to to buy non-from the US and we imported them you know one by one as sort of into Australian where we are to keep two out of the whole soliloquy so the rest to to friends and people on eBay in the arm we managed to pay for the two that we had animals is fascinating and I never had anything another phone like it like it was just amazing whole experiences from the time you turned it onto like many hours later I was flicking through you different applications and all the difference of our things are going on at all solved and I guess when it came time for the app store to come out arm that's the logical place that you know we started and we were there for the 2000 8009 2010 it was probably about 2010 that we tried our first entry happened the way that actually came it was quite funny because by 2010 sort of 2011 we started to get a lot of requests in a can you make pocket weather for entering a wise pot with a non-android you guys not like android and we didn't like Andrew arm and what happened as we go people through reasons wizard look are currently Australian developers in the lattice or paid applications Google play that was it was a retraction arm we said look has been $100 and phone if we don't know that will make the $800 back to this point number two and point number three current with or some other restriction that would basically stop us from putting pocket weather and android and I could not within a month are Google had figured out a way for the Australian developers to sell apps in the store they done all those agreements in a with various companies and governments and then our son I emailed us a brand-new android phone the box express post tender to officer with was a bit of surprise and here was this sort of android phone so I decide who was who did that vicinity I was new to Guzman was a user and will pull his listening I'm really sorry that I forgot nobody was a really great guy who is reactive in the world for community and those guys are neither forget cold winds pull in Australia it's a joke but this is really good community of of people in there and they started running poles and petitions they were all China pushes into Andrew development so wasn't even really our initiative to to get on the platform it was I guess our customers pushing us intuitive of all things which is quite unusual any other matters are fine and we wither we try and we initially become made the mistake of deporting RIS versions to android and I guess they quickly let us know that we appreciate the efforts per this is not really what android is all about I never since then we've kind of got more into it at a point where arm everything the people said about and returned it to be true for us we made back then we made no money on their you know that the support and the fragmentation was was horrific as the bad experience and we came we came time to build the next version of pocket casts and we looked at and with or we can either abandon this and say look everything we thought about Andrew was true as the proof we ported our iOS apps have been on board and people and don't buy apps but I know we had this crazy sort of stubbornness that we decided's list do the exact opposite of what the commission wisdom is let's build are from the ground up pocket casts for four android first let's launch their first let's build just for that platform is built natively to that platforms are no sort of code are imported from the list or design that is native to the platform and we spent Argos 345 maybe even six-month buildings of the long time in a Philip and I to invest into and this one thing that there was literally no indication whatsoever that were ever gonna see any of our money back but just had a hunch and maybe was like me putting a bit more of the time but does illustrate this you know it's a it's a good thing to try people android always telling us how passionate they are about the platform and how disappointed they are when all these apps go unit I was first and you know than they care about us and in a suitable no money and so Tyco must give them what they want is going android first let's build like a native experience regular safety for the timing required to make in an amazing up and the response was utterly amazing so version for a pocket Carson and I just sold like like hot cakes like it was amazing whenever scenes of anything like it even the Irish side of things and I think to this day still outsells the OS version about 41 know was an amazing success story on the platform and our people to this day still tell us that apparently with the exception our modern how true that is before Maren experiences that's what really you know cemented us and so are sticking with the performance of these days in I do hundred percent of our iOS development and maybe some 10 or 15% of our android stuff and in Philip arm he runs the business with me he does all the unit at the main sort of got to the end of development he does all the server side of things also we find is a company of two developers it's this got a good split by which we can be on both platforms because we got two people who you can: both and is not really much of an overhead in one of us deals one side of it monomers managers of the other side of evidence is a good mix another that's yet that is a good mix and I like that approach it so means that one of you can step into the other shoes and work in our platform as as required you to know if there is a surgeon live coding load or something and you need to take care of and that that's that's good this is fun because it historically like Philip and I haven't been able to work on the same code base like when we build pocket weather I built the entire-happen he built the entire server infrastructure and neither of us really knew how to modify the other particle both of the programmers we be doing this for a while so we could properly learn but this is the first time in Mexico to unit to be in the same code base which is a lot of fun like I can't do a lot of these are interfaced often and with that Philip can but when it comes to the low-level code like it is often helpful just to go hey you can come have a look at this or you know what you think about the way I've done this and if we find when you get two people involve the coders get so much better luck is not likely sit at the same desk in: half the keyboard teacher and a mother but it is a massive sort of improving when you stuck on some submitting to school someone is over whose inner familiar with with other platform works in the sky looked as movies there and have thought of this and bang within five minutes in a insulted problem enjoyed after be honest is the thing about Apple community the really down on on Java is a language which is the native language of your vendor and I think a lot of that is because of the in the way Java, made its way into user interfaces on various desktop systems in other was swing which was kind of the Java our UI toolkit and that it was, hailed as this is the one platform that will run everyone was really led to a lot of terrible terrible total user interfaces and I think that again is the impression Apple people have of the Java language as a whole was really in as a natural language it is really good like I am not ashamed to say that I know a lot of people to look down on the car in a Java very funny but it is a powerful language for building in applications and your idea I can have a love hate thing with Java army ice our eyesight has its good points but at the same time as the something about irritate me but then its profit is the fact that I spent far more time programming in C and United artists is used to that and adds it's the same man is funny and I because that that's that's part of the whole point of this discussion is you is what I'm used to it doesn't mean the Java is actually worse it just means that it is different and it's a matter of getting my head around you did differences and sort of being happy about that the good parts about it is a rather better parts of our Java oversea or Objective-C or Swift I suppose even now but some people just choose a look at all the things that they don't like about it is right off you do the same is true of Objective-C like a lot of developers look down unlike a square brackets in this and that is terrible and I have to admit when I first learnt Objective-C this is the Stone Age in a lock release order releasing what is this like manual memory sort of management but I spent about a month the language and an icon and a love that is well like it's it's really flexible like you got the categories which is weak in context and classes on the flying girl is different sort of dynamic things you can do and so it's a low-level language that runs a lot faster is honoured not to fall in love with with that language as well and then I can like to switch between the two camps is because they are you tonight language is to work with them on and how much of that is soon I've done Java for 15 years and you know I know it inside out maybe that's had reason I like who knows maybe the reason I like Objective-C is because you have worked with at five it is impossible to know whether you know one informs the other or the other and who knows what calendar both estimate just to keep well that's that's that that's where we have to come come come back to is the fact that both of these both of these camps have both got the pros and cons and it shouldn't all just be one way or the other and honestly our own cognitive bias based on our experience you know mix in a little bit of motivated reasoning behind you know I'm motivated to your champion one platform because of my background and one personally invested or professionally invested are an even better brand loyalty is like IO Apple can do no wrong or will Google quiz is so is the best surgeons in the world therefore everybody was awesome or something I don't know I'm not sure what the chanting line is that the Google site offence the other one is summed it just works right so I am but yet whatever Google criminal that that is it comes back to the always be pros and cons arm irrespective of what platform you talking about and it's a matter of being honest with yourself and and giving the alternatives a chance and I think it's fascinating disco quickly circling back to it for 4 to 1 ratio between the two platforms where you four times what was on on iOS in terms of our sales and enter it at that that's amazing and if even if you are the exception that let's assume you're the exception and is that the air and averaged an average again how do I say this without sounding mean and horrible let's say arm for the majority of people developing then perhaps a realistic figure would at least be a one is the one relationship I think that the A4 is the one is amazing then may be wise to what is realistic and if that is realistic and that is a massive potentially massive market that people are willingly ignoring or choosing not see what she arm it's worse than that even because the thing about android is that arm before being completely open and honest is that there still are not the level of high-quality applications you get an OSC look at something like iOS and if every single category of up there's wanted to do standard absolutist these apps are absolutely amazing the built really solidly the user interface is really nice and in android you get that in in some categories but the overall quality is lower so our a part of the thinking of going to and refers it easy to stand out on the platform so shall the original version upon because for as good as it was you know it still wasn't the best up in the world in its category but it stood out because it was just so much better than in everything else that was gonna built by an enterprise Java developers and of analysis, tends to fluctuate as I gravitate to towards android and it's it's interesting like you see a lot of I was developers of moment complaining about your revenue and how hard it is to successive maps and it is it is very hard but a lot of those guys they do is write off and with the likely you can make even less money on therein either gone into the stats to back that up to know that even in I thought that through but to my thinking and not sure we want to give out the secret because this is our little secret but it's a far easier place to stand down and do well because the overall quality is slower you know we can we can put six months of effort into something we can be the best in a category in good good luck doing that and I was not being superseded in note 2 or three weeks later there will that's a good point exactly and I want anything I'm curious about this while on that topic is do you notice that the arm that the spike are on the on android sales are was it is of a similar, similar duration like are the spike was that are obvious there was higher but did it last for as long was it longer or shorter just relative terms. At that surge rather than a share and so on a lot of guys like Michael and a lot of other developers they talk about get launched a sales manager ongoing sales in your ongoing sales are so much lower the new laws they want arm we don't get that like does not been our experience maybe it's because we don't have as much exposure upfront and we don't have you not have 50,000 people following on Twitter and 250,000 reading my people reading my blog maybe you don't get that initial surge but our ongoing sales are special and have been really solid flat so if if maybe on launch day we did you know X amount ongoing improper adjusted X divided by two like I just the ongoing wasn't like a graft that just controls down to almost 0 if you plot out was more dislike spike and then a little dip and Anderson ongoing thought level of sales in that it could be unique to making a pot gusting up on android are men who knows I don't Russell started back that I know that pocket with Australia android has sold nowhere near as well and so you could argue that if you're making Australian only out like iOS is still the place to be a window than a job amended is impossible and I know that pocket casa sold amazingly well and that's a worldwide up the observed design for listening to podcasts and pocket whether Australia which is an Australian only android app is sold nowhere near as well you know has as its iOS counterpart you but in terms of the shape of that the sale spike and the ongoing sales relative on the two platforms arm would you say is a similar shape spike for the pop pocket whether verses are blog casts or is it so would you say XX onto after a period after the initial surge or a little below as popular guest of honour for a similar say the more typical of an eye worse a style graft that we see like for example we launched pocket because for and I was there was a massive manner precedent mathematical articles and that was a huge spike for 34 days and are definitely trailed off after the maybe that's more typical of the iOS platform modern yeah one of the arguments level of the app store as a way to handle the top lists are non-not immediately familiar been because non-android user how that is handled and whether or not you get more visibility on top lists are because you get inconsistent downloads or because our as you suggested that so the average quality of apps in the android development market is so is not quite as high perhaps but I guess so in terms of visibility on the app market app store that are you getting that same level of visibility arm on android you desire so the way the other one works roughly speaking uses a three day rolling average of sales so if you're currently selling well then you can appear in the top list and the soon as you stop selling well you just gonna drop out of therein and kinda disappear forever the way it works on android love of never been able to figure out who seems to be based on a low people action opening up perhaps not sure we've seen times and we sold worse than the competitors actually been above them and are not sure how on earth Google figures it out and I think arm I think developers put way too much emphasis on the top lists like these days we don't even I wouldn't have a clue not to be humble or anything I have no idea where any of our apps rank in any of the top lists I could imagine pocket weather would still be in the top hundred in Australia like it always has been but I literally have no idea and offers number four and whether another's number one because I think a lot of developers can spot by the early days where Apple was giving them the majority of the promotion you know you to release a new application to a store of a few thousand you go into the new apps then you go to the top charts and that would just kind of perpetuate itself was now you have a million applications in the storeroom and good luck getting into those charts never mind arm you having Apple, do the promotion for and I think that's that's because a lot of developers to look at that and go up or should get rid of the top charts and the should do more features and yet maybe maybe mean that they could do all the things no longer have to travel to do a promotion for us that they really has to be something that comes back on the developer you know you these days you have to make an amazing application but then you need to do the other 50% of the work on Hagan get people to find this application use is gonna be covered by an XYZ site as it can be word-of-mouth taken try and run are some confirmation it's lazy from the develop onto you to go in arm an independent independent developer I do amazing work and therefore Apple has let me down in my app doesn't so he needs his life. It is only so much they can do and maybe they can do more but really enough just me but I think it comes back to to us as developers and if you want to succeed that's that's new in our a lot of businesses are absolutely in any business ongoing theme in a star restaurant on the corner Street is not the responsibility of the City Council to try and get your customers to your restaurant and all that sort of thing like it's is nice if they help you out a bit but it's really on you to know to see that whatever business you start succeeds and I think a lot of developers forget about the marketing side of it and I think that marketing is a dirty word that you should never get involved in a year and I think that the problem with the way the app store has been perceived is that what the app store gives people and gives developers is it just as a shopfront for you to display your wares and is they will take care of all the hosting all the transaction costs all the credit card BS or you need to do is show put your wares there and you doubletake of a percent cut and you have to worry about anything else the thing is that the next piece of it the next piece the developers saw went when the app store went live was there's not many other people there so it's also a mark it's a marketing shopfront is a marketing tool for me as well you exactly that was not the intent that was a side effect so it's okay it's there now that it's filled with a million +1.2 million egg_David Smith said the mathematics is recently it's a mind blowing number of apps and obviously the shopfront window is still the same size you know you so so marketing has always been something that anyone in business has always had to do and if I were run engineering business just to control system programming for high would believe me I have considered on off many times over the years our I still have to go and sell my services to somebody if I want to be small fry and say okay on this can work for my mate Bob down the road because he wants me to automate some lay that he's got a whatever grapevine that contract will keep me down for a few weeks and then it's done and then what I Want to get out there and market myself I have to I have to tell people pay it's me is John I can do stuff for you come pay me money that kind of thing and otherwise I'm looking to get the business I'm looking to get any revenue and it lawful part and apps are absolutely no different then no exception and I think it's too many people as you starting lazy as is to some extent bit brutal maybe there is an element of that and there perhaps. Husband should say it's not what it meant to be mean to them is not wilful laziness I think is they just feel that as it's not something that they need to do is not the responsibility you yet they said that they like they they they want to be like it was in the beginning when the shop that the store when I was a certain size and there weren't that many things on display at exactly unfortunate and unfortunately that was never glassed no matter what the platform was never glassed was so sorry tell you really really quick story so when we first launched pocket weather in Australia 2008 and we know we worked on this for three months we put into the store and we literally did zero marketing no blog no write-up no minimum topical release the thing it went to the new releases and it was number one in the store the next day and literally all that happened is a few people saw a new releases that pushed it into the top charts as soon as it was in the top charts in a people browsing and up went to number one firm for three weeks thank when that doesn't happen anymore it's is not a thing and I think to expect that to happen as is like you're saying it's not is not realistic that was realistic when there was 300 apps in this virtual shop window but it's not realistic when this was 1.2 million exactly right okay cool so the next thing I want to talk about the listed change gears slightly with total about the code and a little bit more about the developer tools because one of the things that I our I hear this repeated mean time and time again and having ROI five I will admit yes I've downloaded some of that the dental strand I had a fiddle but my Phil was not extensive so on no arm near the hospital more time on Xcode than I have are on the interdental some sort of the point where am I going speak to 1/2 of that so best to one to talk with you about it and that is everyone hang on I hate saying that conversational think everyone thinks there is no they don't John no no are the perception I have is that the majority of people at saying that Xcode is a superior our development tool environment like a developer IDE if you want and then it simply means it is easy to develop onto the lower barrier to entry and is better and I say however of course I recently saw you wrote a piece about Swift and how much you love are back traces and such and debugging so I'd love to hear your thoughts on the quality and usability of the different development tools for each platform and how you rank them yeah fair enough so if you look at it this interesting look at it from just a pure arm i.e. this the thing that I developing point of view arm Xcode and Google's new thing android studio that they been working on a think about a year now there think they're pretty much comparable in the things you can do on Xcode just as in IDE and things into an entry studio just as in IDE at about the same you know the that they're both just as usable are both just as easy to get into where it starts to fall apart on the Google underthings is that Xcode is really well integrated into everything else about the system you know if you want to arm to profiling for example in a go build profile bang launches a new phone profiler pops up you can profile in a memory use time frames per second anything you want on this really beautiful city graphical tool and rescue doesn't have a you know you want a lobster profile is a separate process and not in swing on the works of Google but only to improve the hell out of that there the profiling tools are just absolutely abysmal and then look at other things like arm and Xcode now the interface builder part of these to be separate is all integrated in so you click on your are your new boy Zubin is something your entire user interfaces they can drag and drop to bits on you can link things up with coders is really really well integrated and go to the entry studio side of things and they've really made like 1/2 baked effort at building a user interface of editor instead that there is one in their it kind of works but it falls apart so so quickly like a literally never have I had to go into Xcode and then open my zip files as a pure XML guy edit them but this is not a thing but in android you do that you all the time you end up going to the XML over the visual letter just because it's not good enough so it's is a two by thing the couple has done a much much much much better job of getting the whole ecosystem into Xcode so that when you open Xcode everything is available from that you know you profiling user interface staff are even deploying to the app store that's all down from you within Xcode in androstenedione Isis exactly Everything I mean is a topic for another day about how difficult is the site of you have a sonic nightmare entry doesn't exist lists less listeners not go there but yet the bugbear of a lot of Irish developers and make developers a special thing is that Xcode and Apple have arm lectures to implement a simulator to do your arm your virtual stuff would mostly means your code is running on x86 is not try to emulate like an arm chip et cetera your code running a means you can't do something millimetres lightning fast you Leandro side of things and they've gone the opposite the Canoga to build a full-blown emulator citizens pretend to be Saddam in a hardware in emulators like dog slow consolidate like two minutes to launch the thing owned by the weather is fine entry phone number that so that that level of integration against that the Google just don't have know if secretly behind the scenes they're working on it but really at the moment if you look at it on the whole Xcode is so much better but if you look at them just as I can edit my code here in Amoco there lived a pretty comparable and is at the thing I think there will and realises the whole integration thing that Apple has that is just miles ahead of anything Google is the one that sorta reinforces the my general perception and amendment have avenues a few different our IDs over the years our I have to do you confess that I love Xcode arm is just this really should make an IOC don't get the younger has about Tucker's when I was doing my develop and I was back in I was doing my crummy little clock I keep referring to it not particularly fondly as are many ways in my criminal clock arm to the iPad that was about 34 years ago and that was back when Xcode still had the other build analyse button and it still had that the three separate the windows are as that is air in and out all integrated the one nothing happened about Xcode for some point ascospores and the buildings are Xcode three was was a step backwards in my opinion like coming from all the Java elementals into Xcode three a fellow go again just like Objective-C Allah can release an order release of follicle stepping back into the Stone Age but X foot code fallen and five cents and are just amazing you absolutely exactly and I've been playing around the beaters and a little bit of VAR a little bit of Swift not much our ands arm I'm just loving it and it makes me want to go rerelease my Apple I don't expect that I get any more weight and I get very many downloads this time arm because there has I was launching into a practically bare iPad app store at the time and I knew it but that's okay anyway the good times good times well long gone but anyway okay so I will try now try and wrap this up bits are the way I wanted to do is look at it purely from a business point of view is to take away all of the emotional cognitive bias or view brand loyalty just take all that off the table and we now gonna say well okay for individuals versus companies and you look at companies and this is the perfect place to start is companies will say well we need to get our product or service out to as many different people as possible so it makes sense to support multiple platforms in fact it will even pace to support Windows phone as well and a lot of larger companies will have apps available for Windows phone iOS as well as for our android and they they acknowledge the fact that they need to be out there but then these are generally apps like the other things like Foxtel for example the cable TV or arm Telstra Nadia Telstra's apps or whatever neo-different different apps and on Linda I'm really drawing bad examples for a North American business but yup I'm sure there's plenty of other equivalents but generally larger, corporations or say well you know what we have that they have a bigger budget they have no the ability to get more staff on that can specialise in the different platforms and it's a big decision and when we develop upfront we know will develop multiple platforms that we can justify that cost and in R&D environments you gonna have to justify okay will be expected to get this much percentage uses this much stages in this platform and I have to be cut off as I will not support Tizen or not a support Symbian Yea asked whatever someone support Simeon still unsure the thing is that are you that I would they've got much bigger budgets so I think that that's why you see more of larger companies apps across all platforms but when it comes down to individuals and small companies are indie developers like yourselves but not you but they're still quite a lot of arm developers in your shoes that just is currently in iOS land the time and investment getting up to speed on another platform another platform learning all the nuances also foibles that takes time and effort and that's real money that's you know sometimes you sailing close to the wind and I guess my things I wanted to ask was in terms of time and money investments in learning android did you see that as a as a barrier to getting started because obviously they gave you the phone so obviously there was no harder upfront cost initially in terms of time and effort did you did you see that was an issue for you I guess and if it was up about an issue are it was definitely an issue but the problem is we were was no longer Louis young and na´ve wouldn't think it was an issue in a wee real both are Java developer backgrounds we knew the language and out and we flawlessly thought that we think we could put one of our apps in three weeks on and can be done with in three weeks seems like in no time at all but in reality were very wrong because to to learn a platform well is gonna take at least six months to a year maybe not full-time work but is of something sorta closer and then to support a successful up on platforms gonna take you a lot of work as well so I guess we didn't think about those things are in upfront were not when the smart as we might appear to be from the outset we just want to do something different and fun I guess we will gonna pushed into about it taking like a 50 foot view and zooming out it was really pretty good year before we learn so though the proper way to build and wrap so I guess the first few attempts were not were not the great and sofas gonna take you roughly a year to to learn how to do something well then you if you're you're an independent developer you can have to think is is that I see with my time and I think nothing about Andy developers is our companies don't generally have in our preference for languages that have things in a company buys nature can't enjoy your not enjoy doing something is just made up of a bunch of employees of a company says were going in a Windows phone blackberry android and iPhone does what they do the high people they get it done the other do whatever you as an individual in the whole point something become independent is so they can do something they love and if they feel like that android development is like death to them than you know that I can do it and then I can do it even for makes in really good business sense because it comes back to something like for example I could go out and become in over a Java consultant or in iOS consultant like 300 bucks an hour without celebrating too much of a swell it's nothing nothing even close to what I now own way way way less than but it's not something that I want to do and I would I find it really painful and I think that's how some people feel about arm in a try jump to the side of the fence on a mantra developers arm who do exclusively under development unlike I don't want to learn this Objective-C stuff in it and wanted the next covenant on learn that's just like another world to me like I wouldn't enjoy it and I heaps of iOS developers feel the same the legato uninstall androstenedione and Java and learn about your activities and fragments and how to build entities and faces is not is not one person so now I gather I get a complete nothing for a business point of view if you're talking about arm building sustainable sort of independent developer business asked going to handle was crucial to the we literally would not be here today have we not jump onto the android platform at the time that we did so I do know they were thinking they were the time but it turned out to be incredibly good business sense and maybe as a lot of iOS developers are starting discover now being locked into just one platform and not having the flexibility to be in both canon can be really painful businesswise and thank you because that is exactly what I wanted to go with this and that is the point is that we have two massive amine enormous platforms out there for mobile mobile almost said language that I met you cellular outsell your essay came in here but yes indeed so you got two enormous platforms your developer you have an idea and it's a great idea you can just stick with the one platform the thing is obviously in your case and I think your cases is our is a good example of how it can work because you've got a specialist in one specialist and the other but you are have the capability step into the other person's camp to help out as needed and I think that's a great way of doing it was your one developer keeping it all straight in your head and and supporting two different platforms are programs at the same time that would be extremely difficult not impossible but certainly more difficult so if you are gonna tackle it and even saying while the gold rush is over in iOS and it's all the apples did just that all the things we really talk about all the reasons why people feel that it's not working out for them well maybe people should be considering it have a supporting another platform now maybe that is an option or maybe shifting your focus from one platform to the other not advocating one way or the other all advocating is that people look at it from a business point of view and think to themselves I want to be successful I want to do this are I don't want to have to go work for the man quote unquote I will be a free agent honestly based on everything you've said and what I've seen both platforms have got lots of really great things going for them and if you dive into them and give it a chance it sounds like you can be just as successful on either platform and honestly when you said before that when you got on when you got on our you are now where you are with the because of going on android wildlife that's very heartening to hear and see it's certainly not the meme that goes around the room says you can't make money on the android market is simply apparently is is not true you and I again I can speak from my experience and I haven't sorta surveyed a thousand different developers find out what the average experiences that are stiffly been a case like these days is 80% of all the money comes from from the android platform was the thing is that things are getting a Russell is that if you've got an app store as got 100,000 apps in and 99,000 those apps are rubbish then all you have to be is the best in the top thousand and is you know the numbers don't matter and of the numbers of my head doesn't matter the point is that lot as you have said previously if you put the time and effort in intimate into making a good quality at the android then there is no reason why can't succeed and I think that's perhaps people are looking at is as is treated as second-class citizens saying while I will just put the stuff over and I will do sorta like hacking together and it didn't work out so you hate they were right about Andrew whereas your proof that that does not have to be the case and then I think were proof of both local and regional shop porting applications we we failed miserably in other purported versions arm with the same user interfaces that iOS would have counterparts they sold tablets I think what people don't realise about Andrew this is something I try and draw home to our two iOS developers as well is that there are way more android phones in iOS devices but that doesn't mean that the market is his way because of the way we look at it is take the android market as a whole right worldwide it's X amount bigger than I was like occurs with an amount as you you literally shave off after those people and you ignore them all the people that are on in a really really cheap android phones all the people are still run android to all these weird sort of educators you can just completely ignore the segment of the market like and just look at the people have in Andrew 4.0 and above and in they have sought to cancer people have the really diehard arm enthusiasts of the vendor people that will buy the one up at any price enough they see a good quality out they want you to literally give you money like a second later that no Proms at all there and then you have the other side of the market which is just an ordinary boy walking to phone store and a look at the phones and the like okay I can get this in a Samsung galaxy S5 or whatever for 20 bucks a month less than my phone cow grab and so we can just target those two groups of people ignore everyone else and then I have no science to back this up whatsoever but I think that that segment of the market is probably as big as the iOS market in other holes I think the people we target with iOS seven which is 90% of the iOS market it will be just as big as that the half of the android market that the we can target are up towards it is no reason that other developers can't do the same thing you need to ignore you know all this that cc event as a whole can reseal the stats and the cargo 30% of people still run android 2.3 and Medicare about this people like it's not the you think they made bad decisions or you know will slap them renting our new note thereon that device for whatever reason but you don't need those people to succeed you can just target the people of the more modern phones were your development expenses can be a lot better and you still in solid truck ton of apps if you do a good job call so I guess the learning to take away from this sad discussion is some if you go do an act for goodness sake except the fact you be doing some marketing doesn't matter what platform you're on second thing is if you're going to our development app do consider all your options don't just stick with one platform because either it's what you know is what you really enjoy trying try the other platforms 11 AM I actually enjoy them to and is Java has been around and a lot of people know Java Sogo and eventually Objective-C would seem to have a higher than the bigger learning curve I would suggest that any case and be aware of your own cognitive bias and the fact that our being invested in a platform is not always the best approach and dumb I think you are in the end just make the best app that you can because that will drive your success more that plus the marketing will drive your success more than a specific platform that you put on at least are between android and iOS at least that's good so that's the case so we think think that's real I think I'd add to that is is don't expect success in a success in both app store this is really hard to put a lot of work in an effort if you come into it expecting any sort of immediate success than the public in a file in nine entendre hundred with with that sort of expectation Amen that the sound be brutal but that's that's, how the landscape is of the expect the worst but hope for the best exactly like definition don't sort of expect to sell nothing and kind of you know do everything with that in mind it's you want to be successful but don't expect success to just you know appear on day one of your upcoming awesome cool well might doubt my liver there are think I said like to if you like to talk more about this it can reach me on Twitter John Geagea has JH NCH IDG Wine check out my writing is a if you'd like to send the feedback please use the feedback form on the website and as we also find a shadow to the episode of pod casts dogmatic unified pragmatic show on Twitter to see some announcements and miscellaneous other stuff I really I think my guesthouse Russell Ivana Veitch for coming on today and is sharing all that arm has been wonderful and if you want in touch with you what's the best way for them to do that are rusty shelf on Twitter is who I am just a one word and obviously her shifty is where you find all the that's to make apologise for both my Australian accent and the cold that I currently got hopefully I could still understand you not allow to apologise for having an Aussie accent might that's why why our aggregate Maalox okay according to all that most of the women I talk to when I was in Canada they said that that the strain accent was awesome so you can I say I'm not apologising for my accent okay so fine are a great look back on track I personally I think many tricks also for sponsoring a show today if you're looking for the Mac software to condemn many tricks remember to specifically visit this URL many tricks all one for more information about their amazingly useful apps and using discount code pragmatic 25.5% of the total price of the order hurry is only for a limited time and once again we can enter you thanks again Russell and thanks for listening everybody knows thanks for having you enter´┐Ż
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Russell Ivanovic

Russell Ivanovic

Russell writes at his site called Rusty Rants and is the co-founder of Shifty Jelly.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.