Pragmatic 35: Written by Kernel Hackers for Kernel Hackers

1 September, 2014

CURRENT

Why write open source code and when you should start. If you’re interested in Python, John’s found just the man, Nick Coghlan of Red Hat joins John to discuss open source, python and how a casual interest can turn into big part of your career and your life.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic as a weekly discussion show concertina practical application technology exploring the real-world trade-offs we look at how great ideas are transponder products and services that can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode is sponsored by safety in pairs awesome and shopping shopping is a collaborative shopping list and that simple and easy-to-use with great features like pocket lock smart ordering and real-time collaborative updating shopping list is a special to do list and shopping addresses that use case very well it's free on the iOS App Store to check it out at safety and that SAPI ENT – pair is into.com/pragmatic for more information is absent is also sponsored by many tricks makers of helpful apps for the Mac visit many tricks all one word.com/pragmatic for more information about their apps but like email each desktop curtain time sink Usher Moon name angler and which if you visit the URL you can use the code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and 25 the numbers in the shopping cart is a 25% on any many tricks product on your host John Geagea and I'm joined today by my guest host and our old friend Nicole and Ada were neck. Thank you thanks were coming on the show i.e. are wanted to apart from excuse to catalogues we haven't caught up in ages are since you because the listeners don't know and couldn't be bothered going through both Mayan accidental LinkedIn profile neck I do have a LinkedIn profile about those go back to 2 are following in SPSS and liquids are there yes the good old days while they were the old days with a good under no condition old dish days if out a lot yet well so yes and I strew anyway as an egg and I go back to then and we also played on the accrediting together which were discreetly discussing before the show so so yes but we've always undergone our separate ways and are chaste and different careers so I thought be nice to get on to talk about arms open source software that is messing with our but before I get that just quickly once again we are live streaming show and if you do want to join in there is an IRC chat room on the free no.net figure URL tech distortion.com/live you can access the live stream there or you can use in about icy chatterbox to join in I also have a basic show bot now running our it's a clone of our well cloned saviour for question from more accurate to describe it as of the the case uses accidental bot our witches are running no JS are on the tech distortion server and diet it is only a partial show bot it currently except show titles and that's it so feel free to add those in the chat room with that! S and then your title suggestions and it will you can invite on them after show@techdistortion.com/show bot are but I've had the of its builder were denigrated because the case is used handlebars are which is now JavaScript add-on that I'm are not able to use because it uses the same as same curly braces that start accusers which is why music they distortion set in grand the websites and will be more painful than I would've liked that's okay and the backend is fine so anyhow are yes bigger, just add them so right except computers at work await the course they work next we make them work on a similar we think it really really well that we do not fair enough idea how right you what one could call me a technology cynic Omar go over cease to be surprised when computers break and I am pleasantly surprised that they ever work at all because I know too much about what goes into that stack yeah it's a bit light as a ice on the computer and I just smiled myself I think it's an absolute got their miracle that works at all in this so much stuff that can go wrong many so I think we should publish starters were wet with a little bit about arm what it is you do because I know what you do about our listeners may not know who you are so arm Samuel bit about some visible what your primary role is at the moment – and where where we're working so as I work at my work go read out the most well-known for Red Hat and breadwinning yes arm but are also these days moving out into more general alarm general infrastructure software with like our middleware messaging are Java application servers arm platform as a service infrastructure as a service at all those words you get a name around computing infrastructure arm we we we sell something in that space arm and so what I actually do in I work for one of the large internal tool development teams that actually the software will actually build our isn't stuff we sell it is the stuff we used to make the stuff we sell arm delayed all the all the open source review tools arm car hardware integration testing environments arm software integration testing are the bugs of a bug tracker that powers the Red Hat.com are and yet so we do a lot of the development work for all that but that in itself becomes a thing of well we have to deploy all that software surrender can use it arm and so my job is actually the taking all that stuff that we sell to customers that they had his head around your infrastructure software and at Red Hat well we need to run our own infrastructure software so by jellybeans and relegate here is how we gonna use the stuff we sell to actually run our own business are and do allow so that interesting yet sounds really interesting actually the jealous actually sounds fun watching my job so okay but that's one of the things that you do the things that I icy also involved with is your heavily involved with pythons soaking into middle bit about what it is you do with-you okay so with pipe and basically a bit over 10 years ago now so getting up towards 12 when we were still at Boeing arm I was looking for a hardware integration testing so sorry software testing system to run devoutly control our renovation tests or the digital signal processing stuff is doing it are yes arm which you end up doing a lot of work for yesterday but we will not talk too much about that otherwise you know ASEAN may track this down and she doesn't handle it something horrible get horrible death or whatever arm but the anyway so it is interesting arm didn't have any budget protester photosystem arm but we have that we were using pipe in the management stuff are and the cargo value the unit testing features of bison to actually bright ideas Peter arm and that was pretty cool and ended up joining a bunch of either mailing lesson ended up on the core development list are and just and that was just a fascinating place to hang out and hear from here from about a really smart people about how they built a programming language interpreter arm and then there was just an internal interminable argument that had been going on at one point where it was just about is really really simple feature that everybody liked arm and just just to make the thread go away because I just wrote the patch to actually implement the feature everyone was talking about arm submitted and it got accepted arm and it was like this one owner and so so from there a get contributing our had a three month three month arm trip to the US are in September are in late 2004 where I needed something to occupy my time is but a bunch more on the development start arm and then you can then became a core committee in 2005 have been doing that ever since and so the very hour things sometimes says staff you looking for a beer to open source and Two full-time jobs only one of which you are able nice attitude arm but the birthday yet was it is but a heck of a lot of fun and provided an awful lot of opportunities that are that I would have had a car definitely though the Red Hat gig has a lot to do with the work I've been doing on the paper arm so okay so thank you for that that sat that that sort of arm I did want to make sure that people understood sort of your background because and one the reasons I want to get on the show was to talk about our open source software you just mention that and get one of the things that I've sort of struggle with arm the concept of open source software and I struggle with the concept you obviously understand the concept but I sort of struggle with arm motivation influence and control and those aspects tend to be very different in a commercial environment and and we both worked in obviously in a commercial environment yard with copy of the military contracting obviously a Boeing I've also developed a lot of software over the last 10 years for control systems for our different companies you have manufacturing facilities CO oil and gas water and wastewater treatment and all that is your software that a client will come to me and say he's a budget go rightly code window where breaks go fix it and arm a year by the white mine when you done there's the Dorsey later it's you it's very contractual it's very come in right is code zeolite is not open source is not posted anywhere it is completely proprietary and is it is a very stark contrast to open source so I guess new work for Red Hat and that obviously I and I'm actually right now this is streaming on a AER sent us our six are running on a VPS with the digital ocean and and that is our obviously has so that is AER HEL I believe arm through the narrow does want to project a survey yet exactly so as you can see somehow that it's quite possible that there is something that you've worked on that is within in that server perhaps possibly I know mate absolutely are Red Hat doesn't boot without open so that yet what they go so alright so I can blame your crashes and Solomon deny arm you blame me if it doesn't install because installers written by okay dammit well okay you know what install fine so have to get your somehow else is a matter right so our i.e. I have to admit that one of those things that some I haven't I've full I took some obtain some codevelop people written I've tweaked and modified an officer put up and get hub and a few people have looked at it and that's pretty much been it in terms of me contributing to open source I will go for my sword and say I haven't really done that you know I guess let's start with arm I guess the business the business model behinds Red Hat all the enterprise Lenexa will how is it possible that you open source you got a bunch of engineers software developers programming something that is massive and open source arm and yet you actually have money to pay those people to write something as a fence essentially given away I discovered if you could just walk me through how the business model works so that this is something we obviously spent a lot of time thinking about because we are where there is always the are in addition to the battle of by our stuff instead of the proprietary competitors is also the battle of bum don't use the free stuff are unless you unless you're prepared for the consequences are and the thing people arm what what I basically narrowed down to is that there is theirs isn't too very very different styles of communication for a software development community are and the one you get with community open source is oddly enough the local community communication and the community communication is very very cheap to produce because it's what happens just by doing your doing what you're working on arms selected a pattern as an example are if you looked at all of the traffic in the #in their biases channel arm all the traffic on biting the mailing list are all of the traffic on the-ideas mailing list are all of the traffic on bugs-.org is an absolute firehose of information are if you actually take the time to pay attention to that and filtered all of that and actually see what happened and what actually gets check in to see Peyton you will know exactly what is coming in the next release and you will know what are it will also take you about 40 hours a week to actually do it arm are and active annual and digital figures well-heeled packaging stuff yet it's it's very very high volume are very very in-depth and a lot of it is just not like I had the case of people making suggestions they get kicked around for a while then go mad about it arm but when accommodation that you don't know that that's where it can end up and it and it takes and it takes a lot of arm timetable of expertise to actually filter that stream of nonpoint arm because the people were all participating upstream for our own reasons arm where kind of wet kind contributing their form for a whole variety of reasons and those reasons don't necessarily include the interest of potential commercial uses arm brain so and so commercial users can actually get very very frustrated when they try to consume community open source arm are directly because they'll be going great but I'm using your stuff to run my business why can't I get anybody to listen to me are and no telling what that means what does this mean for a business I don't understand please explain arm but the thing is because meeting their needs is not the reason anyone in particular is participating there like going that they can get very that they don't necessary have the time they need to actually build the expertise to understand the firehose of information and implications for them arm and so it really only makes sense for people who are highly invested in that particular project to be trying to keep up with those those data streams and eventually to find a discerner of just one second is that ultimately you've got requests coming from all across the board from people that use it for to run the business like ISA and of course for in from individuals and so on and in terms of balancing what you implement what you don't because you obviously got fixed amount of funding available through the open which ever means a total bow against stability and in low benefit arm the actual decision how how do you decide what goes in and what doesn't is it is it more about what you will internally believe is best for the platform or are is it about it that is that the driver then you have a Soho sociopath and is one that works on the arm we work on the benevolent dictator with good attendance model try RHA as a lieutenant been talking to Americans too much I was okay a large percentage of your English OR North Americans and they will forgive you that's fine about that we puzzled by the correction now possibly as it arm right over there want to get as a grid of an awesome guy who created by the young that was in the likely one year 91 was writing a study so we can the late 80s I thought that wasn't really still 91 as a writer I need the money releases like your .9 you are you he had been working up for a while arm and the 30th little benevolent dictator like if it if anything really controversial can happen it's pretty much because we know yes that a good idea arm but arm he only had to spend with that even he can't keep up with all the traffic arm and so there is are maintainers of the various standby remodels domain experts in different parts interpreter arm and so basically we have a lot of autonomy to say if if so if our proposal is in our area of expertise that we can do yes that's a good idea let's accept that change imagining arm and that basically it runs on it runs on that kind of model of the need the people who do the work make the rules to allow degree arm so that we have the single-enhancement proposal process which is used to big complex changes or particularly controversial changes arm which is basically formalised arguing on the Internet are not normalised to make a better chance J: okay good I'll take you a it is not the most pleasant process but it works surprisingly well without having experience I wouldn't have believed either real downer arm but video is basically a case of get a bunch of passionate people really care about being get them all yell at each other for a while arm politely my new like it very much a matter of bum argued the idea not the person arm Glenda done that can vary depending on the open source community but it certainly one we aspire to in the Concordia arm and our CSO becomes a matter of arm there is a thing called the Zenith-which is at the base basically bunch of design heuristics about what is likely to fit with the with the design of language and are and then we basically are trying to go okay is this any chance any medication make as a big ripple effect on the ecosystem are and are so we have to say is this is the long-term benefit of this change with the near-term destruction arm uses don't always agree with our judgements on that front but are we basically get that back call basically comes back down to the core development team are and ultimately down to Guido arm still is still heavily involved those either that the head of it is in us-software foundation are as though he is not eating the president of Piper software foundation but the actual day-to-day running of that is arm is down to the Board of Directors arm and so CSO where arm yet what we are pretty much governing most of the big grants brightens off a foundational act. So okay so you because you're on the Board of Directors for the-software foundation yes yes how value yarn attainment relatively recent thing are how how many people either on the board then our nine well maybe 11 arm so yeah so it's that the one we're doing a lot of work on is trying to change the way the best ever in the bed arm and arm at the moment we kinder that the board is where a running a lot of stuff ourselves which is which is not really the way you want a foundation to be running you want to get the you won't get the executive staff in there so the board is pretty much only having to get involved in strategic stuff were not there yet we do a lot of work to do so cool right so the circle back quickly to arm the funding model behind are behind red hats are specifically enterprise arm clinics and and development of it so its core functionality in court toolsets and so on you not just not despite an obvious spiritual of heavily involved with but just to make sure that that that that it's clear what where does the money come from some simple question that the fact that communication thing of that that when you are when you are consuming software for commercial reasons like you are not you're not interested in the software itself we just don't care are what you're interested in is what can it do for me what does this mean for my business why it is useful why should I be using it arm what assurance do I have that still gonna be here next year and five years and 10 years arm and so basically the the thing Red Hat realised arm is that if you if you prefer if if you're in a position to provide that additional level of iTouch communication that that that clear to basically play that filtering and curating role of being able to tell people this is the stuff that is important for you to care about this is the stuff that matters your business you can ignore the rest of it this is what's important to you arm that she really valuable service are and if this is something we see we actually see it in a lot of industries arm so were seeing it in with seeing Nvidia overseeing in music were seeing it in our everything else that the publication is so easy that peoples inherent urged to create stuff and publish it then just doing it for all their own reasons are and so there is actually an entire our cacophony of open source software out there arm so just as there are so so just as there is tons of videos on you tube and tons of music and sound cloud arm is tons of software on the bucket and get Haben to forge in all of these software repositories that that people write stuff and publish it because they're not commercialising that software directly arm arm so and like some of it will be written by people are actually contractors and from their point of view pooling their resources with a bunch of other people doing similar contract gigs and building a common set of tools which work which they all then go in and deploy a four different customers and customise like that arm cypresses and lots of arm was of stuff out there for building e-commerce portals and the reason is that when you're a company who wants e-commerce portal well you don't really care what is built from you want a UN e-commerce portal that is specifically for your company are and so so from the vendor to the people rebuilding those e-commerce portals arm there is so much work to be done that that there is no the DB idea that you don't you don't necessarily need a secret source of our weekend we have the special ability of these special tools that nobody else like this so much software development work to be done that that you just don't need that adjectives the case of that there is so much demand that the dead sharing the tools and bringing the cost down of building the tools means that people can focus on the actual custom stuff arm the what Red Hat does redistribute is a bit different arm what web-based the business were basically and is taking the arm the noisy messy upstream tidying it up putting it in a package wrapping it up with a nice neat little bow on the top hour and then saying to customers look here is the series the stuff that we get this it basically works arm you can do stuff with it is not gonna set your servers on fire arm and and that filtering and duration processes the case of if you don't go through a vendor then you end up having to do it yourself and most customers just don't have that kind of time that it they're just not all knowledge and of in-house knowledge I you yet so and so is a thing of if you have the time and you have the expertise consuming upstream directly are is a really good way to go if you don't have the time and expertise then your choice is either build it yourself or outsource the task of somebody and essentially what what Red Hat subscribes are doing okay well we can outsource it to you arm and and say okay the arm and we basically become their open source consumption arm of alarm by keeping an eye on with the technology going what's interesting things are happening upstream is essentially open source is just the biggest and best R&B Department on the planet arm because it is basically full of very very smart saying that no matter how many smart people you have working for you arm most of the smart people in the world of somewhere else arm just because the world that big are and so that the beauty of open source software is that it becomes a case of you can have people who are very very passionate about a particular problem area they can come up with a solution publish it then other people instead of having to train like reverse engineering design paper all figure out from a patient what they were talking about making a safe this executable knowledge online there are the downward arm and so is just become this extraordinarily efficient system for sharing knowledge wearing away you can take stuff that you don't yourself you don't understand it well enough to build it yourself you arm but you can put it together and create something bigger out of it it's kind of BD that holy grail of software reuse that within aiming for in the aiming for end arm software engineering since pretty much forever arm open source actually achieved it and they figured out that the way you achieve it is you actually take the walls down and shout with anybody who is interested arm and then when they knew what you do with the way you make your money is you employ the people who are the two series experts for a lot of the a lot of the stuff that upstream is a right you're now working R&B just do it publish it arm make it as awesome as you can are and then you have a large product aviation pipeline widget which is basically trying to bring late open source is awesome but it can get really chaotic arm and that a lot of people are like eyes that classic early adopters curve for market adoption I am with you is that that open source people directly involved it's like it's an inherently early adopter environment that that that is done and and that once you get in order to get out of that early adopter environment and package it often arm make it clean and consumable Bay are everybody else arm that started time-consuming and expensive process and but the good thing is that it's also process that people are willing to pay for and so that's that's kind of the there are other business models people built around open source but the particular one Red Hat bill is that one of bringing order to the chaos and and saying is the need tidy arm somewhat cohesive bundle okay cool right so it's essentially your job to go through and is arm filter out all of the staff are the sojourner all the curve that the the contributions that are perhaps are what's the word dodgy and you may or may affect stability you the one of one of the way one of the ways they are put it is that we filter for supportability arm because we have very we have very strong support commitments around the idea of we ship that we supported the arm and so one of the consequences of that is it menswear where we are very very well aware of that if we let stuff in that is too unstable and are just not ready for prime time are then we gonna pay for it on the backend of increased support calls absolutely so arm companies are doing our mass deployments let's say or it may not amass deployments missing about the deployment of some significance arm will come and say looking a we want you to support their's and we want a bill that is so stable as possible with the following features whatever else and that something that then you Red Hat provides that that is at scenario so generally speaking a lot of what we do is actually around providing standard versions of the software with sustaining engineering so psychologically one of the things we particularly stuff that's exposed the Internet is arm security fixes and making sure those can be deployed as quickly and easily as possible without without farm without bringing in our basically what people want is the ability to deploy just the security fixes without bringing in anything else are in so that's one of the big things we do with our stable platforms is is that we give people the option of just applying the security changes arm are and so that's kind of that kind in the the way a lot of stuff gets consumed in and a lot of that gets sold through channel partners as well aware where other big consulting companies will go into our customer and be doing a are now between the systems integration deployment and then Red Hat will be part of that solution arm and then but then you and we do also have our own consulting up called in and do more of that Taylor deployment type stuff but but as far as possible we try to keep everything is clean and consistent as we can because that makes life easier for us is well up in arm but it's always a classic thing of file the more customisation that has the harder it becomes to support okay cool well are we might just oppose everything until benefit sponsor so one saving pair have decided after years of being annoyed with existing to-do list apps when I was shopping are to grow Nias app for the iPhone it's called shopping now there's time to do list apps out there and I've used lots of them over the years we going shopping is a very specific use case for a list if you shopping for more than just yourself then shopping really can begin to shine the best way to describe shopping is a fully collaborative shopping list at that simple and easy-to-use I picked it up and figure how to use it immediately it's not cluttered with options it doesn't presume you live in a specific country or are present you with hundreds of options for different options for milk or butter use type in what you want to remember to buy in a list enter the amount of your quantity if you want but optional and as you list it remembers what you've entered for future and it even remembers the order that you buy you that you mark them off in order them in so as you walk through the supermarket remembers it the next time that's cool enough but when you share it she was by email or message and so on to your spouse or partner kids and hopefully they don't just add chocolate ice cream to list but you they can add Mark off reorder items and less as I want to sow action singles don't show the kids but anyway I tried this in real time between two phones are over 3G and a sink happened in less than three seconds it was it was really really good I also love the pocket lock feature if you're security conscious like me and you've got passcodes that there is nothing more annoying than having to lock your phone slip it in your pocket and get back out again at the end of the I'll just unlock it again a look at your list to see what else is on it pocket lock disables the screen when it detects it in your pocket and re-enables it again automatically when is removed is no passcodes no fastener works really well so here's my scenario might go shopping opens up shopping indicate she is about to start shopping then the geolocation detects a store she shopping at and on our shared list I will go notification on my phone that she is about to start shopping and remember I need shaving cream so I tap the notification get into our shared list and it really quickly it appears on her list wherever I put it she grabs it while she's there brilliant Ms Nunley no more these last-minute is there anything else you need darling kind of phone calls 11 they've all gone away anyway it's free to try for the first month with no ads after that it just becomes unsupported there is no risk no loss of functionality none of that so if you want help other developers though there is then a purchase for three or 12 months to remove the ads are for adult 99 $4.99 US respectively so if you want check this out and ice the suggestion should check it out please visit this URL safety and that ASAP I ENT – pair as in two.com/pragmatic and father links to the app store from there and that will help out the show you can search for the app in the store of course but if he is at URL in your browser choice it will help out the show so thank you to safety in pairs shopping app for sponsoring pragmatic so okay what are now sort of at the point where I want covered broader with this discussion of obvious focus a lot of Red Hat nine ice honesty that one is fine I guess but ultimately one thing she said is that open source is arm of the it's it's great to be other contributor open source because you end up with are the ability to sort of developed some of your programming skills paraphrasing too much of a developing your programming skills and having a hobby that can also end up at some point being something you end up being are paid for is a job which I think is sort of a path that you may have gone down a little bit right you absolutely so when it comes to that when it comes to that pro programmers a lot of them sort of say you should do open source prior you should open source code just because and I ice I think myself all this Badger good reasons for doing that but what I'm interested in is your take on beyond just it could lead to something more interesting what else is it about open source in the code that you're working on that you see is as big advantages for developers you are gay so so so want you big thing for me is is a case of the writing open source software because somebody else told you she told you you should is that will something I consider to be a generally not a good reason for doing arm that it's because it is the case of if you open source code just for the sake of it and the lead is nothing much is likely to come it is the case of theirs is a whole lot of open source software out there that if you're if you're open sourcing code assuming or expecting that you're gonna get contributors are yelling at feedback from other people arm that just not the most likely fate of the vast majority of open source software likely the runaway successes like come clinics and open stack in our doctor and even life itself be the exception rather than the rule arm but majority it is very much a very much a hit curve kinda thing like low like our music around our movies and that that obscurity is the far more likely fate of the bus. Open source software arm but what it basically provides you is arm so in particular these days there's actually an awful lot of services out there that provide the services for free to open source projects arm so if you if you if you start your idea is an open source project you can actually get free continuous integration services are free code hosting free documentation hosting arm pretty much everything you need to build an absolutely awesome software development workflow is actually available completely for free so long as your stuff is open source so that's actually one concrete personal reason for doing stuff is open source which is that you can just get better tools for free arm and like with that that there is online software is a services industries though companies that do this stop and the reason they do it is that when people are doing their free projects on their free offering that becomes a case of when they go to do their corporate software like I actually really like this workflow I'm gonna use it for my professional stuff as well but my professional staff will need more concurrent users all private repo is all or some other feature that that one of the service provider triggering a pretty good at figuring out you only gonna need this if your company are and so and that's a really good way of segmenting your market because companies don't have money obvious lesser or if they do have money they're less inclined to spend on their hobby are are and so and so it becomes that thing of when you can tap into that market of what developers are using in their free time that then becomes incredibly powerful marketing for what they want to use professionally arm so I come arm classic example of that is arm the Australian mob Glacier that they arm there there there are proprietary software company arm but they provide bit bucket for free to open source users arm they are and they make their Jeroboam tracker that they do free licenses open source project as well you just on that point they only got the only board bit buckets what was that nine months ago 12 months ago was only recent are no they look bad they board bit bucket there were there at Latin bit bucket folks at Pike in 2010 pretty sure I sonar my mistake as the day they they bought in quite some time ago arm monitor the case of that that that you got them that that are valued something of a bunch of these so that's one of the reasons it is as a purely self-interested reason when people leave their stuff is open source they they arm gets them get some free arm are the other one is that are quite a few companies these days are where actually making money is on a hosted software as a service offering after that that they and so what people actually paying for them a pain fornicator there actually paying for run the service for me arm Red Hat recognises about ourselves when we got the open shift online even though we release that whole thing is open source you can download and run on your own servers arm but it's a case of when you run on somebody else's offer a service platform that echoed hosting for you are and when you're a small company no ops team that can be a very attractive option arm is over those companies then not geared up to actually do package software because that's a whole like getting software to estate was good enough for you to run it yourself arm because you wrote it that's that's one level of difficulty getting software to a level of quality and stability where you can give it to somebody else and they can run it without knowing it intimately inside and out that's a whole another level of difficulty and much much harder arm and so what you see is are some companies they go to the model where they do release all this offer is open source because the business is actually the hosting arm are and that then then becomes a case of though those companies often do get contributors because people want to run their own for whatever reason they need inside a company firewall arm is that the other that they don't want to use the hosted one arm and but then they run internally they'll find both perfect things and often contribute those back arm there was actually a great star arm are warmer actually released some interesting numbers are recently where they'd they actually release a bunch of the stuff that used to run I wanted you to run out some aspect of their business and so forget exactly what it was what they actually run the numbers and they basically figured out that every are think it was something like every five start-ups was equivalent to a junior developer every 10 large companies was equivalent to a senior developer in terms of the return on investment they got in making that software open source arm and so certainly and then the case of Red Hat's case of you look at you look at above a bunch of our software projects and Mike Red Hat Enterprise Lennox and Luke to look at the links: the flag external is an amazing piece of software an amazing piece technology we we are aware like around 10% of the contributions open stack another amazing piece of technology where about 30% contribution are and so and so is like our R&D department is great arm bite by participating in these air in these collaborative projects we get to our it is that rising tide lifts all boats kinda thing are so it's sort of a arm her and almost an institutional self-improvement program you cool arm came clean so that those that that those that doesn't touch on the interesting arm mostly been talking about if you're starting a project why make it open source under different question which is why Julian existing open project arm one of the most obvious one is guilty of people using it and joining the development process can actually really deepen your understanding of how the Soc product itself works which can then help use it more effectively anything arm in the case of R in the case of C5 and I actually joined the call this just because it was interesting arm but it meant that I had the opportunity to learn about binary floatingpoint from from our from Jim Peters and Buckley concerns a couple people are really really good at this stuff arm so things about IEEE 75 for the you just don't want to know arm are that are down so Jim Peters one of the C5 and core developers invented a invented disorder algorithm called Tim sort which was which is this which is the sort algorithm in our in T-R but it is so good that it was actually used as the sort algorithm for exactly adopted as the sorting algorithm for Jarvis Java arm my own ice yet yet so CAD is that in the end then arm CNN were far far more than I ever otherwise would have about Unicode which then becomes a case of our know that people who speak English have been trying to ignore the rise of Unicode for decades arm are because like you are to be enough for anyone but but you a really is one of those fundamental transitions in computing that that that we need to get to this model where computers can understand every language in the world all at once our Enya where we are almost there but that we still have a bit of a way to go so CM that's just a kind of wine it's a case of if you've in if if I got the time to spend arm and is also get into that idiot into the at that idea from Marshall outages if you really want to understand something teacher are absolutely are and so this is this is where the mailing list so when you when you start on a project likely by the new enemy pretty much in the usually gonna be pretty much in the mode of mostly learning asking why is it slack that was this like that I can try to fix this but I don't quite understand what's going on our end generally arm is worth hanging around the lists for a while to see what the culture of a particular communities like that certainly the case of this if people are genuinely trying to understand them actually trying to say I'm I'm trying to help with this they were very happy to explain arm why things are the way they are in our in all the different factors that can impact on the decision arm and then over time you spend long enough doing it then then that actually just kind of sticks and eventually get to the point where you you you eventually end up on the other side of those discussions rose only we can't do that because this reason that reason but we could potentially do this other thing arm that might solve the problem in a way that actually fits with all the other parts of the language arm and so it was it was as just an extraordinarily good education in extremely wide range of topics that I otherwise never would have touched arm bite but yet it can become it can be really quite very very interesting so are you you okay there is a set of those arm to the point where arm I she just wrote an article recently about the rise of Unicode and howitzer affecting the design of-there's a lot of people are very upset with the way it affecting the design of paper because I going but I don't care about Unicode have to learn Megan have to so all right talked so if this is curious do you do arm might show development now outside for nonwork purposes it'll are also technically technically all of my-development is not directly related to my day job arm go so there is arm it's it's not specific it's not specifically something that Red Hat paid me for something I was doing anyway even before I joined them they are they support you're going to all the different pike on our than that you're nice being the nice thing now is that I get the Conferences like the huge date they cover you view like your expenses and everything when you go to the different conferences around the depends it depends how much depends how persuasive I am in saying that no really this is work-related are okay my reservations are but that it's it's it's a usually I can make a plausible case but but occasionally others go you know what know that there is no business reason for this one I want are even that is the case of getting to do that on work time is still very very cool so how many of you actually given some talks at now it's it's gotta be arm's quite a few now is not all arm so every pike in Australia except the first one that it be read for one hour before the now arm are LCA a couple of LTA that the length of the day you early this year and then arm a keynote at the scientific bacon conference in the US earlier this year so and then another keynote at Michael New Zealand coming up wow cool see at the price enough again so arm I guess so Wyoming's eyes why do to ask your Europe your thoughts on if you're a young developed line you're getting into programming are if you have a choice between developing your code in the open or developing it behind is essentially behind closed doors on your own you private repository and is not open for anyone else to see which path would you choose I can't figure know the answer but more importantly why as so for me it's the case of the the fact that I can get access to things like argue carbon bit bucket Travis CIA arm the-package index are all this all of these facilities for storing managing your code testing at publishing it distributing it all for free are is is really really compelling and that that that there is are and that in return you get access to all of this other software that you can build on and arm out and just basically the Internet is prepared to give anyone a an apprenticeship in the craftsmanship of software development after all the stuff they don't teach you an academic degree about how to actually develop and evolve and publish software arm that that you can actually get an apprenticeship in that way by one of the things one of the things I tell-that are one of our release managers actually younger than the language arm that that that we made a call committed before it finished high school and then he was a release manager when he was at college arm but it was so it because one of those things are okay he actually had it was just a case of those he had really good are demonstrated really good judgement about risk management in terms of changes are and that's that's kind of the main thing you need in a release managers so you see Sue toiling about some about risk management and how much fun it is are just recently actually arriving out having a rough day managing risk I take it our all I only remember what that was about how I think I think I've been having a conversation with somebody about are about that people get our excessively paranoid about the risk of change are and so they lock everything in stasis and say when I go to change anything are and will will will just is this this this system is perfect will just leave it and not touch anything out and then in the meantime the world is changing around it then you suddenly look at it five or 10 years later and ago this doesn't work anymore and you just and and the world because it stayed the same the world changed around it arm and you just like going owl we can't fix these two expenses will have to throw it out and start again arm was a historic dinner in Europe sorry that last last week and the last episode I she talked to Guy English about this and are in what might my take on is it's perfectly okay lock stuff down and not mess with it it's just that if you gonna start messing with something goes start started as a new project don't just keep rolling more and more changes in design that has been battle tested out in the field for a long period of time just because you think you can write a code that if you try to achieve something new and different than make it something new and different that my issue is that people will come in on a mess with the code try to make a better AIF I can write this code more efficiently more effectively whatever on sky mess that because I cant cite well if it's been out the field it's been go out there soaking for a while in in in use and anger than I always tend towards leaving it I'm not suggesting you should leave it there for a decade just to Ross obviously but by during that time I would hope you start a new project designed to embrace new technologies in which case that would be something new and separate that's that's might my take on end. It's really expensive to update so like it particularly putting in vehicles and and and it's not it's not connected to the Internet and can't easily be updated arm that certainly can be away you have to go we may not have a choice arm what the arm what the there's there's a different kind of risk management that applies in very dynamic environment that are changing really really fast which is that if you try to lock something down and leave it then it can be wrong not in years but in months or even weeks arm and and are that if you try and stick your head in the sand as a no-no we gonna ignore the changes we gonna wetware or we gonna try and stop the environment trainings over arm that is not necessarily possible because the forces that are that of the forces of change may be beyond your control arm and so there's been a box of a lot of work on how do you build systems such that they can actually cope with a constant rate of change without being constantly unstable arm and one that one of the causes automate automate automatic are whereby a it becomes one of those things that if you're if you if you automate if you're testing is automated to a point where it can be done by a computer then arm you get to a situation where you can actually fully test off arms are so open stack is a classic case of this the open stacks infrastructure a service system for spinning up BMs are analysed. Our and they have this wonderful gating system calls all where every commit our our every patch that is approved for inclusion in the project arms will actually pick smaller puts them in a queue and the entire integration test suite runs against every individual packed before it is allowed to be merged and this is all fully automated that that the humans just go – looks good are all at reasonable approved merge but the actual process that does the merge is a computer and it runs a test that arm and it becomes this system and so what it means is that the main line of development for open stack is always in a state where it is passing its full regression test suite are and so public cloud providers will actually just grab because they know everything's interest regression test they will actually grab the DR trunk run their own test on order again automated arm and then just roll the rollout arm and so it makes it possible to do this rapid feature development and rapid arm elaborate rapid delivery of improvements arm tattoo these systems are and it's it's a very different way of doing software is a very different way of doing risk management arm but it is vitally more responsive to change than the then then the model of the system that is good for today use every few years then rinse and repeat their it's it's designed to be it's designed to be a continuous continuous stream of small changes so so so that you build you build everything around the notion that changes are constant are a net and that that that that everything you build is is around this notion of our changing changing environment arm now obviously this is a really radically different way of approaching our approaching software development and end our end are we making a lot of money gently bringing people closer and closer to this idea arm but it's one of those things that it is not appropriate for everything out but but it lets you eat Lexus tackle problems that previously were basically are not manageable because the rate of changes to high very good cool again arm there's one more thing I try and talk about arm just before we get stuck in that I saw our second sponsor after this episode and that is a matrix and matrix is a great software development company whose apps do well you guessed it many tricks as the name suggests their apps include Butler chemo Leach desktop curtain time sink usher movement name angler and which now there is so much is all about each at that they make so will you do is touch and some highlights for four of them today so which is a thing about which is a supercharger for your command tab apps which are which is great for and is very popular with ex-Windows users like myself if you've got three or four documents open at once and in anyone and then which is a beautifully simple pop up quickly lets you select exactly the one that you're looking for with no major you've got a whole bunch of fasting to rename quickly and efficiently and in very large numbers will name angler can extract the meta data from files and use it to rename those files are with sensor to replace functionality can create stage read-only sequences and if you mess it up the great British units revert back to we started and try again arm move our air makes it easy to move any of your windows to whatever positions you want halves corners and edges fractions of the screen and then you can even save recall favourite winner arrangements so if you can arrange for work arrangement for home or different projects that you might be working on and is also a special order arrange feature you connect and disconnect an Excel display like you've just arrived at work we just arrived at home it's awesome I love it I use it every day usher it essentially can access any videos stored in iTunes aperture iPhoto any connected hard drives on your Mac allowing you to easily group sought tag and organise them in one place if your store. Informatics and there is no need to convert anything into an iTunes format to watch it so if you've got a video collection scattered across different programs and drives like I do then usher can help you straighten an all-out access for of their great apps are still five more checkout as well all of these apps come with free trials and you can download them from many tricks or one word.com/pragmatic and try them out before you buy them there available by from their respective pages@manytricks.com are all through the Mac App Store however if you visit that URL before 15 September yes they have extended the coupon code so thank you for matrix for doing that you take advantage of the special discount of their very helpful apps exclusively for pragmatic listeners simply use the code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and 25 the numbers in a discount code box at the shopping cart to receive 25% off this offer is only available pragmatic lessons for a limited time as I said it's the extent of 15 September to take advantage of it while you can so a big thank you to matrix the sponsoring pragmatic cynic OR wrap up shortly but I want to talk about some of the different repositories that are out there and you mention some already mentioned get heartbeat buckets are source forge arm are come across code plaques them there's there's actually quite a few more than that I think those are some of the bigger ones if you were going to be approaching that which one I guess what would your water preference be and why okay so from the point of view of the one I actually use myself is our because I use a version control system called material arm which which arm which ghetto doesn't support are in terms of the one which the most other services currently integrate with our and which has the most other users on it arm did have is currently the king of that are the the risk with both of those in their actually proprietary software as a service like they they open source a lot of their back in stock arm and what are the advantages of open source risk management point of view is that arm that dated there is no deed is very little alarm interlocking arm the advantage both of those services have is that even though even though the sources close your data is very open about it it buried it's very easy to get your source code out because the version control system that was designed to do arm and is also reasonably issues about as well so see aids in its it's a case of yet and it's unfortunate that the big ones are currently proprietary but for folks that are starting out and don't have a strong ideological commitment to open source infrastructure stack the EDD advantages that stuff integrates with them are it is certainly lots of other options like Pretorius and get lab them arm and I kinda thing if are and are CEOs source will deliver our road code arm there's a variety of options out there people looking for something that actually open source under the covers arm but that yet unfortunately those big ones are currently proprietary services so Fair enough why are my soul repo that I got to her for my arm open source stuff is get up that DOB the third air it integrates with the I Ivan with get funny if it's basically the reason the reason the dominant in they do user experience are and so and so becomes a case of unless somebody has so get itself does user experience terribly hits it is written by Col Akers for kernel hackers are but one of the upsides of its usability being so terrible is that in sheer self defence the Internet is overflowing with good uterus so so whereas some of the others which would be easier to use out-of-the-box and you can't actually find good tutorials for their advantages because arm like we get you need to use the lonely advantages in sheer self defence here where it whereas material is a bit safer out-of-the-box and so people are arm that that the DB dangerous features are locked away a bit and so people cannot discover them and Fiona cool writing while our single mitre might wrap it up there, the stuff that I want to turn to quickly run through so one if you want to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter at John's energy and check out my writing is a distortion of, if you'd like to send the feedback please use the feedback from the website and that's where you'll also find the show notes for the upset under pod casts pragmatic if I pragmatic show on Twitter to see show announcements and other related material are I like to thank my guest hosts are Nick Hoglund for coming on the show and what's the best way to building in touch with you might are in goblin them on Twitter so that as an Hoglund_Davison yes yes very good and you write occasionally@thatdialoguecuriousefficiency.org now love that name to buy the isomers present a distortion of adjustment of the guard are also to thank other two sponsors for this episode so that thanks very much to safety and pair and their iOS app shopping for sponsoring pragmatic if you're going shopping and what a great collaborative shopping list at the shop we can help you out its ad free for the first month so why check it out at safety and that SAPI ENT – pair as into a.com/pragmatic I also like to personally thank many tricks for sponsoring pragmatic if you're looking for some Mac software that can do many tricks remember to specifically visit this URL many tricks or one word.com/pragmatic for more information about the amazingly useful apps is a discount code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and to 5 numbers for 25% off the price of your order hurry it's only for a limited time so that's it and Zara thank you very much and thanks for listening everybody and thanks again Nick thank you we've actually had a few questions come through during the show are in this particular case are I counted three so far they were from Tristen so our long time are fan and list of the show who lives in London in Toowoomba I believe soap first questions first so what is the deal with Python 2.7 and 3.0 are you so are back in 2006 are greater than some of the creator of Ivan arm decided to start a project to address our similar design flaws in piping to that so that several of them were all the disciples and by the one that back into her arm and so the approach we decided he decided to take to that in that-2.6 are invited to .7 R directly released in parallel with arm-3.03.13.2 so so that for about four years we are actually maintaining or actually producing future releases were two different versions of the language are and the reason for this is that arm the pipe and three change the part-three dropped a bunch of long deprecated features arm but it also made some changes that widow wasn't comfortable making went through the normal deprecation process like the most significant one being the shift from our insight into the assumption is that there is an 8-bit string type which may be either binary data attacks depending on what you do with it are and in-three that's a very instead a very strict different distinction are that there is a string type that can hold arbitrary Unicode data are and there's a pure eight bit binary data type are in and that the separation between those two is much much stricter and so as it turned out this caused a lot more problems than we expected it to because this was part of the thing of that okay DB for a program to actually be ported to pipe and three actually needs to get Unicode handling right arm that we made some genuine mistakes in the in the in the migration plan whereby some programs that did have the Unicode handling right still needed significant changes in order to be ported are and that was just outright mistake are in where making various changes in-32 to make it easier for those applications support are but the there that there is a fundamental barrier therefore a lot of applications where they like going well but we don't care about getting a Unicode handling right because it is not a problem in our environment are answer those uses that well that's why-two resume long-term support mode that will be supporting it upstream out of 2020 arm Red Hat released-227 as part of rail 7R and that's absurd that supported Apple 2024 arm but if it's the case of long-term support releases are never gonna be as exciting as you beta release are and so and so people are going but we liked our future releases will we want to benefit from the visually but in order to get there we have their like going one to migrate to arm-three first and on maps that are because one of those things because the it is there a business context that they may be like going but I can't make the business case for my going to buy than three Gallagher underwriting-terrazzo production and those late arm but that's what long-term support means that way we do it so that you it becomes that thing old bar and is also one of those things that there are like patterns used across a huge variety of demands that people do use of the network service programming on the next arm but is also used her our data analysis across all of the next Mac OS X windows are is used to secure system orchestration again across all of Windows Mac windows are Lennox arm its used referral games programming is used for a Ra user education that usually is different things are and so in a lot of those roles and particularly the education roles are the Unicode changes in-three were absolutely essential and that that-two will not teach you good Unicode habits are whereas word-three was his Unicode the words meant to be done are and in a way that actually works across all the major platforms arm whereas our arm yet pipe into struggles as soon as you take your clinics and somewhere arm and so because one of those things are people of Reno if people are mostly operating in a specific one of those specifically in the Lennox network programming or minute web service programming arm a bunch of the changes we made in-three just being absolutely incomprehensible like why would you do that arm and it and it was in a lot of those changes and as I've been spending a fair bit of time lately explaining the broader context of the modulation as well will give if you just look at this narrow niche then sure what we did made no sense but if you look at the broader context of the entire industry are and the education role in the latter list of arm then it then it potentially starts to make more sense in so it's one of those things that that nobody is ever going to be happy with you arm the breaking backwards compatibility no matter how good your arguments are not absolutely that those that is always a problem and is not it's just not is not from you can ever really solve our ultimately list and creating more rods Fiona back that hampers your own advancement of the platform and then what have you done really nothing so well those are so so we where we we've made a fundamental change in the level of comprehension of Unicode in the aim partial so so sorry Nick is actually the next square wobbly dissimilar questions are from Tristen but this next one that relates to arm as the question is this again how does the Unicode revolution effect-so the reference the Unicode question is the article I wrote just this week on none the rise of multilingual programming are and that's basically basically the lake Unicode was was again one of those things that the idea of it started in the late 80s arm became an initial version of the standard released in 91 are and then merge into a 96 and and the one in 96 is basically Unicode as we know it today arm and what it basically started with this idea of a universal model for encoding scripts are like human scriptures and what ones we actually read) computer ones are as a single unified coding scheme so that the computer could could could always deal with any human language and deal with mixed mesh language takes it could it could do all of this stuff select translation than all the stuff that previously previous Pope approaches around windows go pages in our Lennox the car POSIX locale encodings they just couldn't handle the use cases properly because they could find only talk English was one other language at any given time are and that Unicode is basically about about trying to reduce that centrality of English that that they get computers to a point where where regardless of what Lang what your lady languages you can still use computers to their full capacity are and the lack English is always gonna be there under the covers just because historical reasons but but yet try and try and get to a point where the computing the operating systems and the competing platforms are actually truly global systems that they that they will actually work for anyone are not just talk about North Americans Europeans and Australians arm the cook very good I think that's only means that sense of those two questions is one more left and then will love will wrap up the Q&A that pointless as any further questions are and that is so what are the bigger risks and I'd like to so paraphrase our lives and change the word out to 1 of the biggest risks in arm-releases I was releasing arm new versions of pipe and so arm thoughts on that one arm yet so for so well yet so the two points where things go wrong is when our when we find out about her sweet where there is just arm like whatever particular combination of libraries all that people are using is just not something that the debt regression does cover our end so that they can do can't happen with any release that someday we try to avoid it with maintenance releases would be just by being very very conservative in what we change in those arm are that that's our normal approach maintenance releases we've had a DD long-term maintenance of-27 actually been a bit of bit of a learning experience on that front in that there certain libraries that we found we actually have to be add new features to them arm which is the SSL networking library arm so so the one that does the secure secure socket layer and transport layer security are we actually just upgraded that in item 27 are so that the next release are the next release of that is actually pretty much a full or coastal fallback Porter though the SSL module from Brighton tree are – just because network security is its case of it evolves too fast that we can't we can't continue with the network security library from 2010 340 arm are in so that it can be an interesting one to see how that goes are we actually got that into Fedora rawhide as so that will hopefully at least rush out arm the Lennox issues before 279 goes out arm but yes it will be interesting to watch at them much much bigger change them like making a maintenance release arm our bites one that we think is genuinely necessary in this case arm the other thing where things can go wrong is arm the we we've got our continuous immigration system called bill.that that runs that that continually runs of-her sweet across Windows Mac OS X Lennox FreeBSD are few other platforms are and that pretty much make sure that it's it's our unusual food major bugs to get through it does happen sometimes and it's usually a sign of the missing go somewhere that arm but the one thing that is actually genuinely hard to test in the installers arm just because in testing those is difficult to automate and so it isn't there are and so are and so those it's the case of arm those at the case of the our we do the alpha data release candidate cycle with those are so trying try and flush out the installer issues are in those releases and so clear so that point it becomes becomes a matter of doing doing that kind of change in a way that some are in a way that people get the opportunity to test and so so could be an interesting yet those those are the main things that happen arm arm maintenance releases of the said we try to be very conservative with our and then the feature releases its generally deal be our will be where the bigger changes will will get confined to and so will sometimes be the case we will go with something a okay yes technically that the bug fix but we're still not gonna do it in a maintenance release just because the fixes to invasive are and will and so will point on it to the next featureless DNA notes and its that's kind of where we do a lot of our risk management in deciding where to fix something that that because people tend to do a lot more testing when they change between major versions arm we will put will put any of the larger changes will just postponed till the next cycle is quite for example love-3-34 is a maintenance arm so that the beta release we did earlier this year arm and then-35 will be at the end of next year so any bigger changes in any new features will go-35 are and only the small non-invasive bug fixes.changes all that kind of stuff is what will go in 34 call winding up well and truly answer those questions is awesome and I thank you thank you for that neck appreciated and I thanks to the questions and chat room are Tristan and Di thank you Ron in the chat room for participating really appreciate I know it's been a quiet night as were recording an unusual time it's not the usual recording time and I guess I'm just being selfish because Nick is in the same city and hence time zone as me so hey are you in simulator is awkward at work to get hold of me as well yeah well that's running normally recorded for in the morning so one you know me only got me out of bed at four in the know I remember watching what I'm used to commit a Boeing may cheese for live L are worth now read it far more relaxed seriously we used to come and attend the morning and leave it likes my work 11 o'clock at night she's ugly no okay so I didn't remember I have shifted my schedule that motorbike but you did you have obtained like toy Nick, are yeah that's right is not awake yet anyway I'd still remain normal people that worked until seven are well I'm sorry forbids me to refer to myself as normal but linear arm and we know that is simply not true anyhow so I called arm if you want that there is a show bites I dunno if you've arm come across 5 x 5 are neither shows they have a live show bottom and the accidental take broadcast I alluded to earlier there's a guy called Casey Lewis and he is someone of three people ATP any put together this is essentially to JavaScript's arm are that one runs in the know JS on the server side the other one served up to your browser and allows you to pay hooks soon basically an IRC bot and do anyway so the forest extortion.com/show bot and he got your LOC a table with a list of titles in there and you can vote on those titles side and if you've had a chance to check that out or neck that I'd just start if you like to jump on there and vote for whatever ones you prefer are not trying try and I'll try to pick the ones that that most people voted for because up until now I've been the sole gatekeeper of titles arm so a chance to wire to so do that I guess you did you just remind me over one of the reasons why our what one of the other reasons why people do stuff is open source OS arm it's one of those things of that when your business is not software development but you write some software to solve a problem for you arm what you actually find is a lot of these online in that they a lot of these online communities are like podcasting community it it's there is that culture of arm is a culture of it being a community and it's a community that helps other members of the community yes are in so just like people doing our people are into homebrew or cooking will share recipes about how to make staff arm so broadcasters will say hey use this tool I built to make doing my podcast better and easier show maybe it'll work for you as well are and so becomes that thing of people sharing the stuff they've put together arm to to an end so that instead of everybody having to solve that problem independently one person solves it well enough for themselves somebody else because okay I can take that all that works for me but I will add this extra feature and contributed back our and so that everybody kind of ends up with is better that it becomes anything of their the nonarrival parts of the system that the things that people do things that just need to be done to people that can actually do do that they're interested in our air and that it be done free online infrastructure has got to the point where that that sharing is so low friction arm that is actually worth doing because it becomes a case of wow even if nobody ever uses it it didn't cost you anything to do in the first place and gave gave you something so yes a source that you are absolutely right and some completely agree and the year the great thing about this particular show Bob I read through it is that because I'm now open claim JavaScript on off ages and it sort of thing that I can pick up very quickly and I've sci-fi look at the code and it doesn't take me long to get my head around it could I have written on my own I think eventually probably yes but it would have taken me a lot longer because on the web developer so it's easy for me to look at someone else's open source project and they've done a lot of the stress testing and you are so you know that they've got positive IP address filtering lands army unlike multiple connection request will try to break you break the thing essentially because it's when the great things about being on a show like ATP that has you unlike our chat room it's been hovering around the 10 people mark for the whole episode yet which is fine are our unusual time to record now there's like hundreds are in there in the chat room and there some people in editor's note take upon themselves to be jerks and they will try and crash the show bonsai IAI car crashes show what you are expert anyway are but the thing is that then leads other people to a sympathetic to go to the open source so they have a look at it may have some apple requests and say hey you know this will solve this problem and this will solve a problem and the communities in advance together and get that a much more solid and result out that now I can take the result of all there were efforts and its essentially tweak it from my site which is what I've done and I'm not finished are the still more to be done and was adding a few features as well myself which I may contribute back later but some of them are specific to to the show so we'll see what happens but you you are you did remind me of two other phrases of used to describe open source at different points you are so one is as executable knowledge sharing our and then the other one is arm creating opportunities for serendipity to have arm saves the year and that that it's a setting of those releasing your stuff is open source guarantee that other people find it useful in helping agreement nor doesn't but I can tell you one thing that will guarantee that that doesn't happen which is not releasing it in the first furniture the year if you can't you can't definitely ensure success but you can certainly prevent�
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People

Nick Coghlan

Nick Coghlan

Nick writes at his site called Curious Efficiency and is a member of the Python Software Foundations Board of Directors.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, programmer, podcaster and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John has produced and appeared on many podcasts as well as Pragmatic.

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