Pragmatic 41: Meaningless Token Award

18 October, 2014


Independence and job satisfaction is a consideration whether you work for yourself or for a large corporation. Understanding what matters to us the most we consider how recognition plays a role and the differences between whichever path you choose.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic as a weekly discussion show concertina practical application of technology explained military hospital when ideas are transformed into products and services that can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems dramatic sponsor day by many trips makers of helpful apps for the Mac visit matrix or one more information about the apps but lick email each desktop curtain time sink Usher Moon name angler and which if you visit the that URL you can use The code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and to find the numbers in the shopping cart is a 25% off on any matrix product is observers also sponsored by is the easy and affordable way to learn where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by experts in the fields of business software web development graphic design and lots more visit LY to get a free seven-day trial if you've ever want to learn something new what are you waiting for was all about them ordering show on your host John Geagea and I joined as always by co-host because Heydon Vic good but is it good I'm good how you do this is the fault was working at our store interior fantastic I can hear the new voice right before we are before I make a start is an unusual recording time it's a bit of an unusual situation so are we were recording this morning boats are the follow-up ran over time so we are with rescheduled for this evening anyway so once again are we are lifestream showing us at short notice seeking a dictator and you can access the stream and showroom then the show was running the chat room full of listeners that one participant show except! 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work at home and work from home arm or you have a lot of control of their own time and they have more time while I say a lot of time they have some time in order to do you know pod casting and blogging analysis a from home and it sort of drives a perception that working at home for yourself perhaps EI is a better way than to get like the job satisfaction than working for quite" the man where that supposed to mean but now the expression right working for the man in a and I guess I feel like there's a lot of people extolling the virtues of that kind of a lifestyle and there's a lot of trade-offs there but I don't want to go and tread on all of the same sorts of arguments that usually go ahead I will explore the ones that people are talking about because I feel like the other side of it like being part of a large corporation is not really well Adonis outside justified arm defended even is not quite the right word but it's not explored it's not something that people discussed psych yellow got a J a B job you know it sucks while you want every job sucks their elements of suck edged every job that you do I care of you work at home if you work at home I say what what sucks working at home sometimes is done in focusing your you know it's like that there's a whole bunch of pros and cons and so on so that this checklist is registered to Ashley so I mentioned before that I want to explore in this episode again at job satisfaction and independence so specifically those two radios to however I do have to quickly list the ones I'm not gonna cover but I acknowledge their existence so first and foremost comes to mind is commuting time so working from home generally speaking that's gonna be a lot shorter if you're working from home then driving to an office okay simple straightforward lots of people say it's fantastic right whatever moment are to communicate well is nothing if you got kids when you're working from home you'll end up then doing the school drop-off which is still a form of commuting so you know yes no but generally shorter commuting if any at all when you are yes I acknowledge that now distractions the funding with distractions is that you can cut that argument both ways generally I find yet more distractions and work however it depends on the position you got the company like if you have your own office if you're a cubicle or if you capitalise office, cultural and open office you distractions will vary it's also a very much basic physical position the building for example I found that I had a desk for a while it was right near an entryway and exit way into the cubicle area and a lot of distraction by people are always that said come in our elevators in the lifts and so on the NATO just go through the door and now every time the door would opening a will just be eventually sort of landed some tune our little bit but you can't get rid of it completely flipside that is at home and also depends on if you have kids if you're married in a relationship your roommates and I can come in a bug you when you when you try to work side by the distractions argument but I start to mention it anyway having a boss is an excellent site working for yourself you think you don't have a boss you know if you're doing a contract for a client the client is your boss you like if someone says to you and I pay you 20 grand to develop anatomy than they are your boss at the idea of the contract you knew boss that is a cause very good work and you can contract you do so if you're building a product to users like hold broad-based views that's even worse because then all of those uses are your boss what to extent right because if you don't satisfy all of your customers although or a are of reasonable amount of your customers then you're not going to have customers so you've gone from having a handful of bosses or one boss to spreading it amongst part while tens or hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands depending upon how popular app is no and their all to some extent your boss and directing your fate as you may think I've really want your private does this and have had this feature and then go 50% new client are of your customers coming so we really want feature blind you like but I do want to do for blah suddenly you're doing something because the majority of people telling you do not because you want to do it therefore they are your boss and your working in only a so I think that the whole argument of working for yourself means you are your own boss is is flawed because it's all about how you how you think about what a boss is and what is the problem with having a boss is the problem of having a boss most people say is because you get told to do things you don't want to do what sure mine I guarantee you there are features in every app out there where they are better feature the people added because a they had the habit because the competition had or beaver had a habit because customers demanded that they have their not not because they wanted to implement in a and so therefore you are already doing things that you would not otherwise do if you really truly did work for yourself and only for yourself well since our lot say about things I didn't have any say about my aura how God right next security is maximum I'm not talk about but not all about acknowledge so I acknowledge security yes it was a security I mean palatal door I mean that most people I think recognises job security is somewhat of a myth you are certainly as I got older I begun to see it that way and you know I think a lot of people really reach that point as the career progresses they realise that there is no such thing as a secure job that accompanies you know they can be obligated to provide minimum notice but I've watched businesses collapse in a heap and people just lose their job their benefits they shot to work one day in the building is locked in a show arm Clinton Phillips power who I think is in the chat room today you know it's honestly it's honestly it's terrible when this company is going to business and then you're out of a job I believe that Clinton was fortunate in safaris when it went into arm there was receivership whatever the word was arm he actually did get his what he was owed which is good but that doesn't always happen there and I've seen it happen to our friends of mine says no guarantee you the best job in the best job you in the world and if the company is run by a bunch of numb nuts or the company is running the ground intentionally or it sold off or as a whole list of the litany of possible reasons that company can fail to have 0 to do with you and your performance you have no security is Owen variables at neural control exactly and if you've got a contract if you're an independent develop your contract or someone you know contracts you are well written contract is always good and exit clause you we may terminate any time and you if we see fit and you have to hand over all the work that you've done so far and you know we will pay you what hours you can justify until this point Nancy and again I've seen that happen to I've been on projects where that has happened no doubt even even a couple that I was unfortunately project managing that in that employer because of me personally that you know it stings but it happens there is no such thing as job security I'm sorry that it isn't night and here's another example let's say working on upon and this app is for a platform and then the platform developer or what I say Apple then they really something that is actually a competitor for your product that is free this baked into the operating system and you Scott I believe expression is Sherlock you so there you go guess what your wonderful source of income and everyone loved just got ripped off by the company that was helping you to succeed by giving your platform upon which to sell it there while great to the gate is there is a security is gone and the winner so anyway that's enough I have not to say about security are my goodness are on gay in dependence our dear independents says the thing about independence and no I'm not talking about independence like as an Independence Day like that movie that was kind of interesting thought of arm the skull and cross bones on the computer just I can never get that and I had anyway I know I know it was good to the bed of the sisters so bad anyway again under the arcs of dictionary on your because well it's dictionary and I am says independence is not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence so to be truly independent you cannot depend on any thing else or anyone else sorry for your for your continued existence the locality invalidates the idea of selling lamps yes it does something I never have to go any further without him going to but you know what it says also I I'm an independent develop yes you are independent so long as there is a platform upon which for you to develop and when when people are starting out the business you have made a need to assess the platforms benign consider future known as it's going to happen it is statistically not statistically only as a little bit if you look at Apple for example nab me profit and loss statement how it might make management at the bank is a reasonable expectation and colourful overhead tomorrow there no but then again let's just say arm the big one hits right in arm San Francisco and is a massive earthquake and it wipes out Cupertino kinda think that would have a big impact on Apple if there was a major calamity that wiped out the headquarters of Apple there would be a massive ripple right natural disasters happen okay it's unlikely I know and you propping up with the money on them anyway then you could have said the same thing that Microsoft about long ago lots of people well did lots of people back on Windows phone eight all but I did that maybe some people did but if that platform goes away where are you you if you do all this development for it then what happens out meowing of how independent are you if you are essentially dependent on someone else's platform for you to succeed similar great things about the web is that this technically and isn't really a platform it's it's an open standard that is the degree to buy committee you know well enable abbots even if the platform also it you know it's leak is that is reasonably sector to Apple's local anywhere in the app store is always good to be their ear still dependent upon either of someone paying you directly for your output or somebody subscribing to a back in service rear our poor even to somebody using the app often enough that ads could pay off so shall I mean if Apple decide to shut up shop or if Microsoft did all you if if Google did if anyone decided to show a shop for whatever reason litigation you know all you know going our businessmen who knows if they did you'd beat stuff you have if you put all your eggs in a basket you know so how how my my argument is how independent really are you independent from what exactly you're still dependent upon their toolchain that platform and of course their infrastructure for paying if you have developed an app for a platform like that is not on the ups and not on the app store you the way that Rich Siegel is going with the with barebones right and they're leaving the app store the next version of farm BB yet I believe is the latest new discussion will note that they can post on their website and the platforms knock a change the app store may die Apple may die is semi would still exist in a solid Mavericks would still exist you would be to continue for a while but if if Apple died tomorrow the app store died tomorrow payments died tomorrow you'd be stuffed you're nothing you so that level of dependence is obviously the eight so when people say I'm independent what they mean to say is that I have a different set of dependencies I'm not truly independent I am independent in different ways independent of Robert IM yeah and this is why I can't stand an expression in a late what the hell does that mean so you if you're a corporate as when a corporation are you will the company will often dictate the software you need to develop in or use right so they say you can use Microsoft office just because everyone uses it one of wine is not to do that good you have no choice you can't use OpenOffice is not allowed car stolen computer because of their computer you can't do any of that stuff so to use the analogy of a woman in algebra example of my world like Scarborough PLCs Yvonne developing a Siemens plc then I'm stuck using somatic manager now that said I have a choice in same way that if I'm a bit of fun developing for the oh iOS on premise using Xcode although I know that there are a few other tools out there are no know about take advantage of the latest stuff you see when you swiftly acre stucco thing with Xcode and things any of the titles currently to support that there might be some people I think at it in a in their text editor of choice as it was a fair amount annually than just good Xcode will establish the file yeah that's it so you know but at in the end though you still dependent upon Xcode for packaging and submission and all that stuff so you still depend on Xcode as a product and compile obviously so is not really a truly independent alternative it simply I'm choosing a different GUI but that's it okay so when you look at that weight you never really in control which means my definition you're really not independent missing a fully independent and as platforms mature sometimes you can get more options open to you but the ground can shift under your feet very quickly and find yourself trained honest hotels are no longer useful which is why I sort of think that going down a programming language path is a better path as a generic skill set language as I Java my pearl PHP that something you that's gonna be more insulating and provide more stability for you if you concerned about that because you are learning a language is specific to a platform devolving specific on a set of tools yet they can become obsolete you are in a very short period of time whereas platform independent staff stuff is out there that is in common use that's different in legacy you and on the PLCs I guess you could argue you have the differences between you RS logics and down somatic manager and our glitzy unity private sinusitis side of things out yet they all program and SBD so once you understand that the function block diagram method other subtle differences between the different editors but still a similar language so I guess it depends on how you want to look at still for many people I guess it's the price of working in an industry whether platforms change and evolve so quickly because in engineering generally if not the software side of things things are pretty static in western using Power CAD 54 you a lot of electrical load calculations and has been around for 10 years a lot more than that and it's still pretty much the standard inner while we are anyway and into the woods as or other tools out there NASA things move less quickly in different areas and I think in engineering because things move less quickly as is less of a problem but this also there is also a lot less truly independent engineers for the reason of footfall not those reasons but for legal and insurance reasons mass another aspect of and considered in terms of independence if you want a truly independent as an engineer and if you make a mistake or you're implicated in something goes wrong that that litigation insurance and could cost you millions of dollars in litigation to fight and answer burner most people either can't get insurance for don't want to bear the risk of gross software is relatively low risk like devolving violence for example and anyway rights before I go any further want talk about how the sponsor when that is is an easy and affordable way 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perpetuate bad Englishmen about the wrong side of the classic yet well it's okay to while III had this discussion do I have this discussion I have a semiregular on-off discussion with my wife about whether or not you should listen the lyrics might do you really want to see if I if I get emotional about a song you know or I get really into a song eyesight really love that song is answer for whatever reason the lyrics of night I was alerted to the great you know and down and she will say to me but I never listen lyrics and how can you not listen to the lyrics and get them in the lyrics of their their spoken English why not listen to them but but then of course I've asked the people turned out some people don't even bother listen lyrics are that even know how the lyrics are okay and he is somewhat run around saying I like big butts and I cannot lie in unlike our likes command no do not sing a song in this lyrics totally matter I completely agree Clinton and being I can't get no focus okay so time to focus where were we job satisfaction rights and so on that tangent the problem problem with job satisfaction fundamentally is only talk about how I talk about something that is mean something very very different to every individual what satisfies me and my job will not be the same thing I pre-will guarantee let's not exactly that you find satisfying in a job where the job may be an SME different from what the people in the chat room feel as job satisfaction and just be different all the people business Park asked everyone to have their own checklist and say arm you know riding Word documents makes me happy who I'm waiting to meet a person that says that maybe someone must somewhere I think anyway so I could list all the things that make me happy about my job or my past jobs you all you could list the things that you find satisfying about your job or past jobs that really I don't think that's really useful necessarily as a perspective because anyone listening constantly ignore the detail and say we know what that's fine for John or Victor doesn't apply to me because that's not really my thing and that's and that's exact you were mocking attack this this way instead I need is most things think about talk about the elements that people tend to look at that are tangible and intangible so maybe this makes sense may be a dozen so the first few I want to mention for the sake of completeness but they're really not while focus on Jesus started out podcast that way 70 but it is time it's obvious is in it and that is money so I get satisfaction from money and you know what you can't write off money because more money equals better than most people ultimately we did then begin to spend up to whatever annual income is in a lot more money only relatively few people that I've spoken to have ever reached a place where they are truly happy with their income until while even then I guess in teleworking was nearly overrun it paid off their house and they own everything insight and even then sometimes are still not happy you know or hope and any people that are born into money or have comically come into money either through marriage or or circumstances in Armenia even then I happy so money on it at all about because you know what it's one of those things is problematic problematic sit and talk about now I guess what is I can't I can't derive anything useful from that so except I think that money should any BS as an element of the equation right lifestyle as the next one that I will talk about comments and for the sake of completeness some jobs will give you different lifestyle freedoms that others don't simple examples longer lunch breaks flexible starting hours flexible working days flexible working attire may be like many can't stand wearing a suit or a collar on time and I can't stand wearing a collar and tie by the way I refer you to an article I wrote a while ago called the suit on contact distortion arm that Harry Marks really enjoyed and completely supported comes up so the point is that I don't think that's lifestyle is something that is equally possible to apply across as a generic disappointed discussion because what I think is useful and valuable is not useful to others some people will not have a job unless you wear a collar on time because I think it is serious job people some people like to have the rigidity of you must be there at 8 AM in a fuel there two minutes five minutes late you're in deep trouble you don't leave until 5 PM not negotiable in I mean lunch is always between 12 and in 1245 know some people like that some people crave that so is not fair for me to say lifestyle in that respect plus if you're working at home as a whole different lifestyles and is completely different so owning is worthy of going any further with Simon to focus on the enjoyment sort of arm piece that sort of dovetails a bit into recognition so winning any job that you've got that you may choose to reflect on job satisfaction is really mostly driven by your enjoyment and enjoy my guess is that so enjoyment is your non-hatred anti-hatred what's the word it's like i.e. will persist in this role because I hate it less than the last role that I tolerance Thomas's yes thank you I have built up a tolerance to this job and therefore I shall continue doing it I mean it's sad it's a horrible way of thinking about it but honestly it is the it is the opposite of enjoyment because I don't see it as hatred I see it as you yet a series of frustrations so you know you enjoy the tasks on the whole that you do and that outweighs the things that annoy you when the annoying things outweigh what you enjoy it's made us time to move on being so I honestly think that the enjoyment of your job has to do with affecting other people in a positive way Nina what made is going to the office in the office in the audience law listeners right now that are that span out the coffee the drink grind their teeth yelling into the hearing yelling at me and that's okay and I don't care if it sounds do she maybe does centre she has a wrong word maybe some thermistor she may be small that it sounds I'm not trying to sound tell me how sounds back was somewhat uncertain of the league itself 30 that's definitely too strong a word it sounds like something inspirational speaker would say cliché may be no clichéd yes thank you it does sound clichéd fine and I don't mean to sound that way and an okay so affecting other people happy know you affect other people in a positive way okay you know your figure the people a positive way through feedback and so that is how long I break this down is feedback so the reason I think that people stay in the jobs they do they persist the jobs they do they derive satisfaction from the work they do cut all the stuff that we've already sort of drawn line under owning a lot of it comes down to enjoyment driven by recognition and that recognition comes from feedback affirmation so I suppose you so you've got theirs I suppose different levels of recognition so if you do a great job and is not recognised in any way by anybody or by any system that exists in the company to recognise that it is very disheartening not talk about God that ever works in I think you have to tell me that you have sent through this been in a place where the company gives you an award but everyone gets a turn have you ever been and what sorts of roles where it's like this month at such and such why did they went this month because I had won it yet it's been 12 months yet it's their turn to win the award right what kind of an award is that's to not getting the chair a very meaningless silken he is my meaningless token award you should now be that your participation award thank you Clinton in the chat room that's exactly what I'm talking about it's that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about being recognised specifically for what you do when you've done a great job when you done a good job so only at that is a major driving factor between people quitting jobs changing jobs and giving up jobs is the fact that other people get recognition for work that they haven't done or they simply don't get recognition of the work that they have done you whether it's recognisable recognise the huge either toilet so how do you not also forget the places that only seem to recognise and acknowledge failures and setbacks and they don't really pay much attention to the positives absolutely a negative feedback culture where where everything is our Manus asset management on me sorry are but yet it's a negative feedback said again and needed me back culture good God know what I mean is that you all the feedback that you're getting is essentially our not really in five just realise I just reinstated my own what is said as the opposite of what is said God explain something about using that word in your explanation anyhow okay I will stop there and keep house recognition were coverage I have I had the shop takes a step that's better now than okay now just idea that we are leaning on the shovel you digging a hole for solving is realise it's time stop digging a hole now move on keep on walking keep walking which is the Johnny Walker whiskey Mike whiskey recognition levels of recognition you can break it down I think and there's property people have done a better job of this maybe I do know that as I was thinking about this today how would I break it down well recognition I guess comes for me comes from three broad groups okay peer group perhaps that's the most obvious people that they are mentors and for the want of a better catchall can I say are miscellaneous but general public shall we say so peer group I would define as those that are immediately surrounding you and I can be either literally literally or figuratively so in your field of expertise so either the people that you work with on a day-to-day basis you interact with them either they are part of your team and the organisation you work for all that part of a or other teams within the organisation you deal with on a daily basis or even a weekly or monthly basis that you interact with and that could be considered your your literal peer group is also are more figuratively in your field of expertise let St another group of people that you work the work in your organisation to do the same kind of job you do but a different department so you don't normally interact you normally talk with them all this people that you that you meet outside like I say go to a convention or something and there's no if fellow people of your fellow whatever arm particular discipline and that is how I would define a peer group and that's important because those peergroup people they know you specifically they know you as an individual and other work that you've done and in and specifically if there in your field they understand what you do better than the general public would get now I at III originally didn't have mental but I thought about that mental recognition is also critically important as a category because that comes from people further from people in positions with great experience that are essentially mentors to people know they're like teachers lecturers or they are arm high-level senior technical professionals there people that not only are they peer in terms of your field of expertise but they are also your senior and recognition from them is worth more because of that position and then finally general public restaurant everyone else so honestly I think we think good breakdown at XO and some are forwarding that anymore is unequipped talk about our second sponsor for them so and the best matrix matrix is a great software development company whose apps do well you guessed it many tricks and their apps include Butler chemo Leach desktop curtain time sink a Shamu may mangle and which no sums talk about each of these apps that they make so what is can touch on a few highlights from for them which no I mean 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any video store in iTunes aperture iPhoto or any connected hard drives on your Mac allowing you to easily group sought tag and organise them in one place you still perilymph that the Mac is no need to convert anything into an iTunes format watch it so he got a video collection scattered across different programs and rise in usher can help restrain an all-out notice for the great apps they're still five more to check out as well in all these apps are free trials you can download them from many tricks or one and try them out before you buy them are also held by from the respective pages on the site or through the Mac App Store however if you visit that URL you can take advantage of a special discount of their very helpful apps exclusively for pragmatic listeners simply use pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and to find the numbers in the discount code box and a shopping cart to receive 25% off this offer is only available for pragmatic listeners and for a limited time to take advantage of it while you can thank you to many tricks for sponsoring pragmatic and I just want to add to that that I really do love moon arm I actually hadn't used moon before many tricks sponsor the show I used it as I was doing arm as I was rooms of researching a little bit for the for that and read and honestly I fell mother I use it now all day every day that's cool it is that it is that cool so you know how in Windows are what you drag it drag a window to the top of the screen Windows 7 Windows 8 and it snaps to the great like the whole screen or interact the side snaps to the CID and so on well imagine having it out like a much more granular experience like i.e. have agreed and you can literally move the window to the 2 x 2 Square anywhere on the screen or 3 x 3 square anywhere any screen and it will automatically position and size are just right for that space great anyway okay where was I that's right would lament recognition so prominent recognition is a comes on a sliding scale and it gets die looted as the size of the organisation increases so on giving example of how recognition gets die looted and had to illustrate the point on the quote for apps and some of the developers involved, start smallest to biggest as incisor people involved to to your response to beast starting with friends show Marco Ahmanson and overcast so next one on my list is napkin by friends show going wish and Chris Parrish Vesper is an excellent by Brent Simmons Dave whiskers and John Gruber wrapped 37 overcast there is no question that the apps characteristics belong solely with Marco Louis Manzi is known or maybe icon but you for four overcast but ultimately most other success failure recognition lands with Marco no doubt no confusion crystal-clear now is napkin guided certain parts Chris did other parts becomes team effort and that's fine but now he recognition is split between them equally not equally doesn't matter that's cool dynamic duo no problemo no Vesper it's neither John Drew was involved as a director Dave is the designer and Brent as the programmer decisions are split between them collaboratively and again there are team and as such the attribution recognition is as well and again to the debate over who did what and why it already start to see you adding more people to the team that the committee recognition it well yes it is a committee bit the recognition now is spread across those people is no longer directly attributed to an individual so the flipside of that is how do you perceive the risk that how do you perceive relative recognition if you are in that team but the way around out that list aforesaid for apps for the fourth one and you can cringe whenever you're ready is Microsoft Excel who are no car love XL so here's the thing how many hundreds of people do you think of work in the code base of XL in the past 25 years and I'm betting it's a lot right you now here's a question for you who was the lead designer of XL originally who was the leaders I have no idea anybody grey ideas I throw some the chat room anybody who was the lead designer of XL do not search Google because there is an answering Google I would imagine the shoddy mania sacrilege how dear you shoot you in a minute had XL is awesome I use Excel I seven and I like everyone for what it's worth but they can be wrong I really want to number it is my naïve mode allows the office application God you absolutely word I have very little patience for words in word styles i.e. I could I could happily burn and and jump on and throw into a black hole and then foreign missile ladders welds to make absolutely sure okay so the chat rooms, blank we have suggestions wasn't Joel arm then we have Steve Balmer Bill Gates no known no unfortunately I'm sorry so Douglas I think it's pronounced Linda it could be pronounced Linda he was the original lead designer of XL never heard of him good cyanide because the problem is that the more people you add to a team that the product ceases to be about the person it becomes about the team or the company of the organisation so when people download something like overcast I'd say a percentage of them would know who Marco is but mostly would know Marco is the dude the guy behind overcast let's say the more people you add the more difficult the story gets the more more spread out recognition becomes so anyway just for the heck of it because I'm I guess vein I know I searched on Google to see if there was any reference at all to me is in me John CG being the lead software engineer on the northern pipeline in a connector which I sometimes talk about a show which is a big project that I did a few years ago five years ago now apart from being referenced into LinkedIn profiles that's hardly trustworthy source of information in who trusted John should you go he's a liar so there's nothing apart from two LinkedIn wrote references you are one of them on my profile one on someone else's profile that was associated with project so nobody to the world and yes the code that the code that I design the blocks that I wrote discarding the telemetry system that I designed and wrote some of Scarborough a lot of arm that carries water to over a million people in south-east Queensland and no one knows who I am but cannot that's okay that's fine with me I'm not looking for recognition for a million people drinking the water besides because I realise that I am just a small cog and will get to this in a minute the recognition from the general public and that's that that's the point is from going with this is those are examples of public recognition I'm okay with peer recognition you know and I've I've enough that as a result of different projects I've worked on people I work with appreciate what I've done that that now that I've worked hard I've done a good job and that I think that's enough and I think that the developers on I can't speak for these other people okay I can't even the couple in the bid on the shy, can speak for them you I am honestly I am free I am very sure that they have had a lot of recognition and respect from their peers for the work for the the apps that they written II can't confirm that but I'm relatively sure that they had a lot of recognition based on what I can glean from different conference comments as they spoken out in the respect that I see shown for them on Twitter and in a occasional that there now arm in a mean to the peer recognition that they get I think and I get is actually what matters but you know what what they think BCI to ask them but is about you not me and not them see the thing you want to be an independent developer independent design independent engineer whatever because you want sole or primary recognition for what you do and create from the general public orders from your peer group doesn't even matter all to be honest with yourself because I think if any party does is properly okay but it shouldn't be the reason you should let that guide you it can be a component just like the money and everything else but it should not be the sole reason the last straw should be any of you know me but I do think that public recognition is way overrated and yet I think that that is a dangerous path that peer recognition is what counts so let's assume okay moving down to cogs because our automatic cogs why an ontological's announcement of our cogs, mechanical engineering whatever how assume is machine you want to build not a literal machine to something big draw box imagine a box and there is machine fixed size doesn't matter that you know whatever and as a bunch of gears and cogs and make this machine work and new design anyway likely to be a small cog in a series of small cogs and bigger cogs machine work or you can choose to be a small machine and you can be the big cog in the Tennessee expression right so I think it's okay to be a small cog in a big machine just as much as it is to okay to be a big cog in a small machine if you run your if you are your own developer and running your own project you're doing your own thing but here's the trap okay here's the thing there are only 24 hours in the day you cannot be the big cog in a big machine that you are making because it's just you your time limits how big machine you can build you will be the big cog in your big machine you cannot do that you have to rely on other things to build your big thing they become dependencies they become interdependencies and that's a problem because in your dependent yacht independent so you have to do you limit yourself by the scale so look more about scale than let's say at tax by any developer why gets 1/4 million downloads does matter which at but so does will assume that all the people are downloaded actually use the app how many people know developer wise name betting is less than half will introduce you as developer acts cannot buy a name otherwise who how will we know you are now in a transplant the same awesome how the developer into Microsoft Excel's team now working on pivot table code. Tables baby you is about as much as I can pin pivot tables and another night so developer why now: quote worked on XL worked on the XL team is a thing though it actually affects millions of people accordingly download thereat millions of people use Excel every single day all around the world's using pivot tables well maybe these tables but you for example it only a 5K I picked a random feature you pick your own feature of XL that they worked on doesn't matter so illustrative actually slow growth in BBA fine day with a macro BBA person eager to make the capping here that's so and that another video as the redeeming thing that keeps me using Excel over numbers you so you may be a small cog but you're affecting the lives of a lot more people in a hopefully positive way people behave on XL go-ahead had on XL and states actually Dragon a while now it isn't but you know I notably by the think that and that's fine okay you had on XL I am happy with your hate is all good but you see the difference right if you take that public recognition off the table in your own interest in the peer recognition I think you can find that is actually much the same if you work for yourself and your and your independent debarment developer whatever else you can end up with a very similar level of peer recognition if you're good at what you do as you can get working in a large organisation I don't think that you can get much any extra satisfaction from that especially if you make something that people like I'm in mind you if you work for a big company and you do stuff that people don't like you can get recognition thereunder it comes down to caring if you care working for the organisation you got a better chance of about having peer recognition are any dog a job than if your work for self about your attitudes about how you approach an asset to me that's the best part and that is where a lot of the argument I think no one talks about MAB is not worth talking about and I'm wasting my time I don't think so though I think that that this is this is just an aspect of people do not explore I do not understand why they don't think about maybe it is because it is considered to vein to what recognition is it considered is not arm as I get it's a bad thing for you to wants other people's positive feedback like that somehow something to be discouraged in a like you're so needy there is a stigma attached to a lot of environments and cultures yes i.e. you should come with a balance in your psyche such that you do not require any positive feedback because you are supremely confident in your capability but hang on that makes you arrogant that's also bad so I don't get it because I am in like anything I'm sure it's a balance between having some self-confidence and then relying on some form of feedback and recognition in order to know what I guess seeking validation I guess if you rely on recognition validation solely than that could be problematic so maybe that's there is that the people will take it to the extreme and say well I'm sorry but all forms of wanting recognition is a bad thing and I'm not sure it is but if you are looking to make a career choice solely by the fact that you're not getting the recognition that you like maybe need to reset your expectations and think about what's the recognition you're really looking for and if you're and if you're sticking it to the man whatever in your job because you've had a bad day that's not want talk about talk about like a long-term thing if you're stuck in a job and you don't like that job and you got issues with your boss or your peers whatever else you find get out do something very furiously drastic like completely changing go Indian do your own thing that's a massive leap and my my word of caution would be don't expect to get better recognition because that does not come with that territory necessarily average and recognition truly is the thing that drives a lot of people and I honestly believe that it is even if it's just a little bit doesn't have to be a lot I suppose the amount varies depending on individual but still then reconsider its maybe sister company working for it's not working for the man it's working for the specific individual or wing of the specific individual company that is the problem for your role within the company as a bad fit and an asset that's army massive management expression you very good fit there a bad fit as one measure expressions are like because it actually expresses in a nonjudgemental way the that the issue is that arm there is a lock it needs a key and you as a key do not fit that lock and therefore does not work doesn't mean it's a bad thing doesn't mean you about any at a and everything it just means that you don't fit that's okay there are other parts of an organisation we can fit and identify been fortunate to work with some managers that understand this and I was a bit unfortunate that I will managers that do not understand this that say just because you don't fit you suck your gone yet no recognition yet negative feedback are gone no job satisfaction and which point you know you happy to go mind you in a doesn't happen very often but has as happened nominal legato IIGI jump before it was pushed but anyway we think bit of a weird topic now I think a lot of people spend a lot of time thinking about these things and they don't necessarily discuss the accounting might wrap it up we got some questions for the Q&A which will come back to afterwards so I'm after show listen after me after your outer music and other recent Q&A so if you would like to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter at John CG I'll spell it for you that's JOHNCHI DG E wine and you can see now if you would like to send any feedback please use the feedback form on the website that we also function as this absent upon casts pragmatic now remember if there are topics that you would like me to talk about you can suggest and vote on a tech once you sign up for a free account tech it's live now go check it out yourself I pragmatic show on Twitter to see show announcements and other related materials also want to thank my co-host Vic Hudson being on the show and I was the best way to building in touch with you Vic they can find me on Twitter advocates and one that's BRCA2 DSL where the number one because Vic is number one yes stand straight also because the muddy authority advocates of which tell them that are no I aim the alpha you are somewhat bad idea okay fantastic they've got a sort of okay final thank you to our two sponsors for the show I like to thank for sponsoring pragmatic if there's anything you'd like to learn about and your looking for an easy and affordable way to learn than can help you out instantly stream thousands of courses crowned by experts in the fields of business software when developing graphic design and lots more visits Alloway to get a free seven-day trial if ever learn something new when you waiting for and I also like to thank many tricks once again sponsoring pragmatic if you're looking for some Mac software that can do many tricks remember specifically visit this URL many tricks or for more information about that amazingly useful apps and use the discount code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word into five numbers 25% of the total price of your hurry it's only for a limited time and I keep saying it they are extending it because you guys are awesome so use it while you can an asset so thanks everybody for listening so Tristan lost row in the chat room asks how does this apply or how I think this applies to stay-at-home moms and dads so I think they're fun for me I have not been a stay-at-home dad for more than a month at a time my wife had are a few C-sections where she was out of action for a reasonable amount of time recovering after the surgery and I opted to take a month off of work are some of that was unpaid because the laws were not particularly flexible with home with regards to our prepaid paternity leave at the time things in Australia have changed since then which is great unfortunately at the time it was not the case alas anyhow so I can only give you a my perspective from my time during those that those month periods of which there were three now and I've also had other times when my wife and our commission for surgery were effectively been a stay-at-home parent for a period of time is not the same thing as doing as a full-time job day in day out all year long I understand that my head up I get it however I think that the recognition that you get from your children is the feedback that you seek because ultimately they will repay you in ways that no job have no paying job ever could and no reward system ever could now if you do if you don't have if you don't have children maybe it's hard to get your head around and I really hate this expression you don't understand if you don't have blah right like people can't understand if you don't have kids was like to have kids and I I find that terribly dismissive and I don't want to say that I don't like saying that I think honestly arm I think it's easy enough for people to appreciate that if you're doing something for a volunteer organisation or as a volunteer thing then the recognition that you seek is the people that you're volunteering for and having children is a bit like that is that you're sort of your woodworking for them and doing things for them and expecting nothing in return while that's kind of formal volunteering and frankly arm that sort of work they say that that sometimes volunteering volunteer work is its own reward the point is that the recognition you get is the satisfaction of the people you're helping by volunteering as a Tristan also asked was the biggest platform change you've had to deal with them professionally what I've done is I've changed companies where I've been predominately supporting one kind of plc wheezing somatic manager and I've had to learn very quickly a completely different plc that is done a completely different way although there are the languages were similar the packages themselves were in fact are very very different in how they function and it was extremely steep learning curve very unforgiving projects very hard deadlines really not a pleasant experience and honestly I think a lot of what you feel you are new to all these you're so used all the foibles and little niche is and little things about the old tool that you get very frustrated like God Jesus sucks terrible truth is not – not too bad the problem is that you're still learning so what you do you just you bag a narrative can relate to that but in any case arm yet it sucks but you deal with it and sometimes what else can you okay last question also interested ask a lot of questions there are actually plenty of other people HRM a Tristan's arsenal questions not that's okay so what is currently at the top of your lists for job satisfaction outing is bigger question for me and for you to answer Ashley Vic so I'd like you to answer that one first if you like give me a few minutes to think about a horse that is such a cop out fine and I think you had minutes to think I can you expect to try to find old Ollie Oldfield is one first then but splices and back to front so it sounds like you and now okay what's currently my list of job satisfaction that is actually a really good question the problem I've got is that what I'm looking for is a generic thing identifies can be a satisfying answer by a bell saying okay some thought about it the one thing it on my list is I want to be able to influence the organisation and move it in a positive direction and that's what I look for in job satisfaction and at the moment I'm working on a massive project and I mean huge multi-list multiple billion-dollar project I I kid you not about the numbers and you allocate its Australian dollars which are not strangers really aren't that different from US dollars exchange rate is not that bad so if I'm working and on on a project and the scarlet discuss system has has issues and I've gotta be careful how much I talk about some is my current employer and I have restrictions on one level talk about will not so I'll have to be vague about certain things and the specifics but the deer that the issue is that the scarlet needs improvements and is where I get my job satisfaction at the moment is I am able to influence aspects of that and I improve the Skyler's Ghana is used by dozens and dozens of people and organisation with 50,000 people working for it you may say a few dozen people big deal then my peers as was talking about they are people that use the product that I am influencing the product that I'm not creating this is the first time I've worked in a in a role where I have not been the one doing the programming but I been the one solely guiding and soul and not really guiding it that bit like you critiquing it doing quality assurance site and pushing through improvements first time for me and man is not much difference the responsibility and frustration will tell you now so yes Clinton and HRM says I want for like making a difference yah do I want to know that what I'm doing is having a positive impact on other people's lives in that company when there are workaday company and I drive job satisfaction from that and has to be generic I don't think it's a copout I think that neither of the Excel yet I think that it's the I think that that I guess extols some of the virtues of what I was discussing in a show although finding his own start manner work backwards so maybe it is subconsciously without realising that in case there so you a chance to think Vic was furious at the category regular regular disregard Meier may be LBD child in the warehouse because aside from paycheck honestly and get a terrible matter satisfaction that an explorer in order disregard that there were a look at this from the perspective of making apps which is what I'd really like to do full-time and make a living from butter L and I have any aspirations to like owning any market categories or being at the top of the stack and the tarp app that does actually or away or see arm out much like your lightweights I really like making utility apps and things like that and I want to make apps that I feel a people use regularly and it actually makes a difference from them or make something that they need to do a little easier and makes a positive impact on in the day of the routine or the way for whatever they be using nothing to manager for arm obviously if I have made enough money from layouts for that I could quit the day job that would be great but mainly I just want to make something that people can use and that actually makes them easier to accomplish whatever the task estimated to do an excellent that's fair enough I mean if anything is that I'm in II haven't done our adult a lot of people would would expect in an app developer to say and I I want to be number one at this or that on the App Store at unit how realistic is that all and Anderson even if you make it this there is a lot of pressure with that there is a lot of expectation that comes with that is the absolute right neither year I agree I agree and I think there's a lot of scrutiny that comes with that man is a realistic expectation and we talked I talked with the rustle of benefits about this arm and this the episodes are shop windows shot from when I saw the size right it's it's it's a very competitive market is a very small window of advertising your your wares so having expectation of being the best or the top of the incisor is an unrealistic expectation I think arm so it is best to be really good for a niche a small group of people that really love what you do and you've made their lives better and I think that all more efficient or more enjoyable and if you satisfy those things out like totally get that and I think that that Brent�
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Vic Hudson

Vic Hudson

Vic is the host of the App Story Podcast and is the developer behind Money Pilot for iOS.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.