Pragmatic 56: Lovely Platitudes Don't Help Me

6 February, 2015


Brianna Wu is the CEO of GSX and is one of the women behind Revolution 60. Join us as we talk about gender imbalance in Engineering and Technology, and how we can help bring balance to the force.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic in in pragmatic is a weekly discussion show contemplating the practical application of technology explain the real-world trade-offs look at our great ideas are transformed into products and services can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode are sponsored by extrasensory devices and their amazing luck several an incident like me to attachment to your smart phone or tablet visit ES for more information about the handy luck several but no modern photographer should be without and take advantage of a special discount exclusively for pragmatic business as if it is also sponsored by is the easy and affordable way to learn we can instantly stream thousands of courses created by experts in the field business software web development graphic design and lots more kickstart your New Year and challenge yourself to learn something new visit LY to get a free 10 day trial is something for everyone so you want to learn something new it's already February so what are you waiting for was all about them during the show quick story about Linda shall thereafter sell is actually journalism is not in software engineering is 19 3D stuff to be our specifics now are one side make a career change gone again down of our lenders were the first things abiding subscription to and are you think it's just an amazing service I think anyone out there that wants to learn it would be very well served by the actual arm so yes on the host are John GG and I enjoy today if you haven't figured out who that was that sound brown work and what the show Breanna lovely background and I appreciate your time and I know you shorter time so when I say this is gonna be a short show I actually mean it will be a short show has to be many times as long as I think you are before you get stuck into today's topic though arm I just want to quickly arm reiterates our yes the ER pragmatic T-shirts the long asked for shirts and probably I do this one so if you want one brother now has a link in the show notes and I'm selling like so many others do through T spring I realise if you're outside North America than the proper shipping can be a little bit more pricey but unfortunately there aren't many other goods are options internationally I'm aware of I also have stickers now available if you'd like to check them out to be a link in the show notes arm of also been asked to do a coffee mug stubby holder rights at this point I'm just gonna hang off and wait and see how we go shirts before we go any further anyway so arm now is your chance to grab one get now they are only out for about another week so grab them are wild and yes there is are both a guys and girls version so arm the ego choose as appropriate you know that it's really important to me Italian meat grinder made history in the guys were in the light guys don't understand the guys T-shirts make you like that because like the SL bulky Oliveras and I personally appreciate that thank you no problem and basically arm for the truth is that some whenever they do have your like a so-called unisex T-shirt it in never fits right on either gender doesn't seem to you it looks a bit off and so I absolutely was always going to have one of each and do III with there are some mum I get feedback from our when that was in the show are regularly arm a Karen in particular and incision down and thanks again for the feedback together and done that it says something I want to make sure I had both options so okay right so arm and see whether we begin when Delia began wearing the yes well you start with some luau to lead do this is I will start looking at the history just just quickly because at least refer for when it will register diversity or gender imbalance if the way we think about in in the industries that we plan so I am in engineering and in a course in your case and in technology and gaming in particular remains it's the sort of thing that it's hard to know where to start because the problem is as old as time and I guess I just want to quickly cover the lasts are sensory and undiscussed scheme over the that the key points I know is it's Gobi risk OB… Diving okay right so her so the start with that the big ones I think the right to vote for example and our family often the that the that was referred to as as women's suffrage and in the in the in America nationally was 1920 when it was first our past as law are in the UK was 1928 in Australia nationally was 1911 the states were it was it was that weight since 19 oh up by 99 eight but it was only for British subjects in our case and was a bit unfortunate because some aboriginal voting rights didn't occur till 1962 which is horrendous but irrespective embrace the whole number topic for another show and goodness me so yes… That they've it there so it's only been a relatively recent thing in the last hundred years generally in Western culture and Mrs just to highlight how much of a problem it's been all that time up until then so then causes the right to work and women always wanted to do certain jobs but not always drive much if any income from them and during the first and second world wars near women played a big role are in the war effort although not normally and not necessarily the frontlines but it began to open up more opportunities and industries and job roles previously they been excluded from the thing is though there are still a lot of jobs out there where whilst women are technically band they are more of a boys club and conversely there are jobs where men aren't banned either as one of the girls club things like nursing which still has only about 5 to 7% of men in your flight attendants as well is another example and more recently teaching and teaching session with a weird ones because it's more of a recent thing where men of sort of armed in leaving the profession and against Robbie another topic so I just mention that a frame and context that is not to say that that you if you look at it there are far more boys clubs than there are girls clubs but to be fair and balanced there is a little bit on both sides knew she was the discrimination based on the gender and the stereotypes that drive these microcosm is to be self-sustaining and breaking into those microcosm is is much harder than it really should be out really quick comment please sell you only true that there are some fields like sit working for a non-profit or a yacht dimension nursing that are more a female dominated if you look at the history of women working hard there tends to be a arm phenomenon that happens sell when really high-paying fields, while excess software engineering are yellow it typically happens that women can't get pushed out of it and I would say that you tell arm software engineering is not the same as nursing leg nursing is a great profession I think is wonderful and friends are nurses arm but I think when you look at what creates the the social fabric around us arm I think software engineering is increasingly defining the world that we old existed in elevated Twitter face work emails social experiences purchasing experience in a think that housing can have the keys to the technological kingdom you know is not just another profession and Ian's very highly paid but it's also will make the social engineering because I'm around this self I think that this is a particular profession where it's extremely imperative that women be included alongside of it because I literally think is the future of the human race as the subject since the absolutely and of course near different professions and down and out different histories in the thing about some software is that it is a relatively new one so it's only really been around as a profession for what maybe 3040 years tops I think arm driving back to when the first computers really when software became a thing and it has yet has you right it is high-paid admonish because I think that's our it requires a certain level of knowledge to be built up and that sort of knowledge that needs to be built up is something that's is that has traditionally not been encouraged to be arm it's not saying that web where women have been encouraged orthogonally is the one thing so I gets her arm in a few minutes to talk about why that is but arm I totally agree I guess the thing that that I cannot arm get past no matter how many times I say I go through this is that that the gender pay gap and I did a little research on this and in Australia it's averaged over last five years somewhere between 15 to 18% in America it's around about 19% is a similar sort of figures I caught 1/5 lass so women get paid to 4/5 of what a man would get paid for doing exactly the same job which to me is beyond ridiculous and it's like the idea is we are as I have a few I walked into a room and we would swap bodies were produced exactly the same work I am then I is when we get paid one fifth lass and I only get at it as a make centre just I don't if our Eden experience that makes licensed me settles i.e. I know about beside why why I don't understand so light of unconscious our additives in the example I was very recently in a meeting with a bunch of art with a bunch of people in began development industry desire at art is a colleagues but there are people that work from me specifically sell your best and having a meeting with love high-level people in Gambia here and I know assess this trend that arm you are someone else in the room that was speaking up and down you know there would be typing and naturally people would be quiet and there would listen to him and yet I was actually speaking art in doing sent thing people just go into the realm will conversations and word would ignore the cell unit is not that the in this is a room with only three women including me in public vastly majority man it's not that the man in there were consciously sexist is that on an unconscious level let someone is not speaking and make you a deep provide a voice in it just was deemed lice important on an unconscious level not only waves I was actually sitting there advocating for diversity in some of the work we were doing and I had to take a bit and say excuse me you guys have been listening to my friend over there can we take a minute and listen to my response here which was the moment everyday capitalised and then heard what I was going to say sell I think 90% of this is unit is there are consciously sexist man intact I you deal with them every day by the majority of people that I encounter at the how the kind of unconscious success of Ian you know it's just it's it's program sell deeply into it is hard to think past eight sometimes when I speak about engineering positions in thy elements after engineer I will inadvertently refer to the positions mail and kisses me in a ethics sell many of us have to Push past you it's just that that example that we you arm just discussed about people bring up a side conversations ministers route doesn't matter what who speaking that's just the height of rudeness but I've actually your that now dimension I think similar things in engineering arm there is not very many women which you know is something that I buy again II sort of I know why we are where we are to an extent but it's still frustrating and are often working are on a yarn oil and gas projects at the last year year or so and is there is a a few female engineers one of them are she's a process engineer that I'd love to get on the show are anime at some point actually and dumb and that she is she is amazing to talk to Scott such a depth of knowledge and experience and I've been in meetings where she's been talked over and it's like well you is just it's it's hard it's hard not to get frustrated and upset by it because you or you can do as they will be no everyone needs a fair chance at all doesn't matter who they are a run gets it gets an opportunity to speak and that's anyway okay so sorry so arm I specifically having done sort of that that the little bit of historical preamble want to talk about about your specific experiences and sort of fear I guess where it started so beyond the before any of this arm some of the more recent arm nastiness which one I guess will get to arm that you had to deal with pretty horrific pretty horrific yarn will get to it but for the minute I just want talk a little bit about what events that have led you to this career thing everyone has a sort of an origin story for the want of that opening you know about me what will the things that actually made you interested that the sort of starry eyed let's I'd I'd love to do this as a career some wedded all start Wendell start for you arm my my father was getting his medical degree in the Navy and now in the early 80s arm he got out and he decided to undergo open up the zone art clinic so we moved back to Mississippi sell from me I can do better living beyond the outskirts of DCE for alignment life and then suddenly I found myself are you living in what is frankly the poorest state in the United States would like the worst healthcare and worst educational system in and are still only as my parents were very well life there were there were our entrepreneur is in and yet we had all kinds of computers and things like that and at home are my mum is extremely technical and are you now so my happiest childhood memories were sitting on the floor of the office trying to figure out late dice are a few soundings to install a new hope to sell arm from me I found myself in this culture that I just I really did not fit into our new it comes like Southerners talking about like you who is dating her will or are you going to church all the time you football which is kind of a religion in the South arm I just frankly wasn't interested in that cell I could have turned out very very early to the world around me became intensely interested in computers are in the bottom part one is the biggest get my parents ever gave me as they find it anything I ever went to Lawrence it was like a three-year insulin computers how he was $4000 UTEP now herald your lessons over at the local college and it was just a really cool experience arm that was also mixed with my parents being entrepreneurs you my father didn't just open up as an healthcare clinic ER you branched out into other businesses so I was kind of arm I did appreciate the time they grew up like going my mum to meetings with the logger or the bank select worker Mr self from the very beginning I can have had this arm being built into me it was like if you want to do something.I could I just get out there and do it make it happen are you now or in that's so that worries me sometimes I see people that want to go into you computer science is the people that need a system in front of them in that's not what computer science instance every single day your like the definition of the Java solving a problem there's never been sold before you sell arm disconnected steers this background where was it were the ideal late just get the resources and good deal and that her attitude is really certain ingots dad has a great attitude and I think it's that a sort of entrepreneurial attitude is so something that's not pushed enough arm and I think a lot of people tend to an hour and be honest in my in my case specifically arm it was and I never considered to be an option as like my option was go to uni get a degree go work for the company as a it was not it was not you know you can do whatever you put your mind to know you can get out there you build something affiliate that was never on the table and I look back and if there's anything that I regrets arm can pack historically as I wish that I have had more of that push early on the night I didn't really start creating my own stuff until you know what more recently in its near so I think is wonderful and dark I think that the ability to do that are with software is that is one of the great attractions of software is because you can set up a few computers arm yellow and dark with the rights are motivation and talent and effort you can produce are something amazing I couldn't agree more more I think it's arm I do think there are laypeople that approach it in a way that can visit well thought through you know a lot of people have this attitude like I have an idea my ADSL Larson that I just get it made people want to lead in that unfortunately is not the way that the world works arm you the reality of my position is a i.e. being CEO of Jess Sachs are now regularly spend as much time on politics and your connections and taking things done behind the scenes as I do you actually writing software Ian is kind of an unfortunate reality of this child is night and aspect of it I particularly enjoy but you it's what has to be done for myself and my employees and I think I think a lot of people in this field would be arm that is certain to have a little bit more of a pragmatic approach to my choice of words okay so my arm let's talk about that then so you mention GSX arm are that's a giant space Details little bit of our joint space Absolutely really fine time to be in the industry are if you want the car as you promised my life are you when I was a child in the late 80s and early 90s arm you women basically barely played games are I'd be amazed if it was even temporary setback that sell you from a Steinway filler sake if you are looking for female characters or are you now even games with the NLD of the female bent to them are directly didn't exist I think him out into thousand and 80 it's been really really exciting time yell into thousand and eight it was only 17% of players are women in today it's 49.5% of players when cell that's that's really changing it is huge here and sell you giant space Academy watching it weighs a lifelong frustration with the way women are pretreating games as being the golf round and tired of this being the damsel in distress and tired of us being the clear veggie sidekick that like you know lengths wounds of the male character arm that on top of that I also think that there is an opportunity for to just tell stories of women that you know it's more sincere arm it's in my experience alive Neil designers will need to make integral is a kind of just arm you slap a pink sugarcoated covering on top of that unit this just when you women involved in the Gander process I think you and with the product this just more ice than tech in LA I think that there are things you can speak to you when you're a woman creating games to just feel more rates you to female players and this is not to say that the man can do that I just think that arm I think that there are some dynamic sycamore easily when women develop self together GSX and they didn't arm you have this mission to start like a majority female studio but I found myself hiring people that I click to sell your mound was my first employee in real is my second Ian we just Going from their Ian.this really arson culture that's really friendly to mothers that are stresses late teamwork and collaboration above all you know arm is a really good place to work as a great place to work somewhere I've been working in big companies to longer it's perhaps not quite so idea but anyway okay cool that's awesome and is one of the things that you arm that you've developed a revolution are 60 which has been out from a while now and I believe that there is a PC version that is about to go out literally just one steam greenlight rate before the Holland you really excited as a lot of people very excited about that I can I know that for a fact that so arm one of the things I arm I really enjoyed about revolution are 60 is that it's it is if feels so much arm and no more it's it's more pleasant in house to describe it I either know I've I've struggled to put words to do but worse is struggling right now but was around but I just I really do enjoy the fact because I feel like it's our it's a breath of fresh air in that's in that space and I that I think it's I think it's wonderful just that reason alone and it is and is a great game side I will preface that bustling and not a huge game of though arm but you do but still so I prime really glad that that that game has been made and I hope that you guys continue make more games like it so very well in the art the marketplace in November there was our feel very strongly about is you shouldn't have to be a will to work in controller 15 button steel enjoy hearing so we want to tell again that was arm to just tell really good story for the player because I think that trend sounds in all their light of nine gamers of continence at a really really enjoy this game and that's because like from the beginning we tried to just treat everyone the wrists with respect and to streamline mechanics and arm year beyond doubt when I'm really excited about this game and what are most proud about is you will ever have a moment when we say women are arson in equal and revolution 60 but what we do how this entire cast of women characters just going and having adventure and being leaked fully lashed out people with lies and you know good parts of the personality about in the message underneath denial is like what women are people to get out that's really needed message absolutely no definitely brings about bring some balance to the force of the want of an opening but some the great the great thing is though it's a start I think there's theirs arm I hope Eliza said it is more of that that happens and I think there will be and other successive bar of revolution 60 I think is going to hopefully going to promote more of that in the future so have you so before we go any further though I just want to quickly talk about our first sponsor a new sponsor the show and are that extrasensory devices now use devices there an innovative company from Palo Alto in California and they recently released their all-new luxury for all its an 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of your phony smart phone particularly because you've already if you're resigned the fact that you have that you have a phone anyone have a smart phone while in what extent is capability rather than carrying a whole new device and whilst Biloxi is designed also for people to use further SLRs the SLRs and so on there's no reason why with the Iowa state are manual controls that the Apis are now available that you can't argue that to get more accurate like readings and then manually control are your camera in your iPhone for example so it's one of those is most things I think that is arm I've not had data a battery grip as well they to be her and Barry grip that I used arm on my iPhone 5 S sadly doesn't fit my 6+ I'm waiting for new questions that come out that I know sets too wide now doesn't fit well and I hear looking into pot bottom line though is that you are the only it's a great idea so absolutely check it out but okay so back on topic so arm social behaviour in CRM software development and I guess one of things I wanted to sort of ask is without any points along the way before you started up arm joint bar space That's your ever sort of like felt you were discouraged or pushed away from that career based on our based space on your agenda did you feel any of that were there any so situations when it happened really are good then I was describe myself as barely a feminist before I started this company found arm year I had worked as a reporter in it had various arm Jarvis claimed you work in TAC and Microsoft server attack and doing deploys and installations that arm you now it's certainly never forget a child I had three years before a story joint space can't you showed up on my first day of work in and all the dudes took off that daddy can play Hamlet together which had just come out because how a three-year healer to the hello three and arm either they didn't bite me along Ceci and I didn't play games and sell minor incidents like that but arm nothing that really rose to the level arm but what I found is a story working as a software engineer in videogames is you know in AA think they're really good people that work in this field but it's so much worse accessed arm in ways that shut me every single day that I complained of my views changed and I felt compelled to start speaking up about it and you now even before the game against us And arm you lie people actor there under this impression my career didn't exist until game example that's not you know I was sorry getting water conference and Bates out to your target women in TAC issues here before before any of this happened in ER generating industry pieces for a very long time about the sale arm you know it's what this field deeply but I'm sorry to say in my personal experience this field is drastically worse than any other of overworked and yeah I am I was i.e. I guess I was a little little surprised to hear you say that you knew had no no real resistance early on it was until you got into the specific field that there was more of an issue arm me as disappointingly wrong arm in engineering I've heard multiple arm women tell me about different things along the roads just from that I can't say from my experiences because obviously I'm young on the guy but from women I've spoken to engineering arm there is there seem to be a surveyor a bit of a culture like I wasn't really girls things like why you hear kind of thing and I'm I'm really just I'm genuinely glad that that was not a roadblock for you to get to where you are now and I guess the problem I've got is that right now with got's okay we go talk about gamma Gate toga so I guess pure and simple what happens army and will it start with what is going to gate and maybe you're better to describe it than I am but arm you start with that at its core is its there is a short answer in a long and the short answer is this and this tension in games for a long time as you games of kind then the boys club Ian I remember being a child in the ED's amenities Ian in the relied of a mirrored second felt like games were at their space and their very protective of you know arm there was something it strikes me every year wagon axis how people well where again were T-shirts and have given a tax use and it's like their tribal identification there are large you really establish their identity are in games sell what you have is the game industry is changing because so many more players are women these days and games are becoming more inclusive Ian in the short answer is there a lot of men that are being very sexist about this changes in ways that I understand arm the kind of longer answer is you my friends Ellie Quinn his again developer here in Boston alongside me ardently as she basically are hard and ex-boyfriend of her as our release this horrible sharking transcript are their entire love life he hadn't yet released just horrible details about her sex life up to the public and what you had with these success cameras can take out and go with that in use it to attack you near the pre-tax tears this is about journalistic ethics but the truth is it's about attacking women in this field arm in seeing these people go after sell the aircraft in my friends met Alan go after so many women arm that you know I became very vocal and speaking out against it and are yet we are now at the point where it just speaking out and advocating women in the in this field again development arm you had 43 duct rats in the last four months are you now a a ideal law enforcement every day talking about this and you is at the point where away how public appearances guy at our security to escort me at this point because that's just how serious the bright stimulator cell unit it's a it's a really unfortunate situation and for me personally as a mouse a distraction from my career you have to go to that saying those absolutely horrible arm to hear that you have to be been put through this and I 43 I had no idea it was that many manuals a lot even count the rate flats at this point because to seek out whatever you now think that is a meaning that they are defensible and make a video yesterday of showing a picture of an elder interlocking are points you are you basically use at NEL and motor Ian Anita Sarkisian in here this is just an evening 7 o'clock my house sell its you know it's it's really frustrating and something truly frustrating with that is well is you don't have to be a young software engineers to work anywhere they want basically you have jobs in other industries that are tangentially related to the game industry I got a job offer are two weeks ago to go had a arm your VR team outside of the games actor and it's frustrating to me because at this point account I could leave games out of I wanted because I have so many women that look up to me arm yellow is kind of a line in the sand sell is suddenly my career isn't just about me because if I laughed that with your signal a huge windshield you basically this axis out there sell its is just an awful situation to be in this that that is that is horrible and I it's difficult arm it's difficult for me to have this this conversation because it's hard for me because I can't appreciate what that really feels like I can't arm I can imagine it's the best I can do arm and for what it's worth I'm not sure what it is worth but for what it's worth I think standing your ground is the right is the right approach arm it's in am in my in my experience arm in engineering and seeing other women have gone through arm where they've been confronted with and I can't it's far as I know death threats rate threats no I have not come across anyone is been through that in in my industry I will admit but I ended up well this is this is one thing those like all of the examples I can quote our not of the same scale not the same intensity and severity as what you've been subjected to that that that that the out the approach that arm you know I think that the approach of sticking with it and is and and not not giving in is the is the only right answer because as you say if you fold any move on than it feels like there is a victory to them and that's and that's the wrong behaviour and ultimately it comes back to the prosecution in a matter these people that are making the threat you see working with law enforcement are they able to prosecute this by people I have ever hard to track them down into and to do something about this in have they be able to any of them I think the numbers speak for themselves and the it's not just me it's Anita Sarkisian it's Ellie Quinn is Randy hope sell a mean like it older duct rats and rate threats with garden and ask yourself how many raster yet answer zero sell arm I think unfortunately that the question is is line forcefully getting it done as a software engineer idle particular caravan can't occur about outcome in a sell arm either getting it done now arm account say I had no I don't have your your listeners that you read what's happening this week been span really scary link people making terrifying videos arm about killing me so I can take either conversation with law enforcement this morning Ian and unhelpful that somethings can happen after talking to them by email it's it's it's a wedding a midnight right down to their attention this particular person was struggling Malay NL over a month ago and you know I gave them his addresses phone number are Armageddon testimony from your actual supporters of game recant that just didn't want to see someone killed arm you get them all this information in an it's just been waiting for stuff to happen I guess one of the things I am I just my preface when I say with I'm not suggesting that this is in any way equivalent to what you've been through but that the closest I can come to understanding what must be like is that when I was younger I was starting a drug and into arm CB radio before then that was a thing now, an old grandpa or something inner arm and is I didn't realise when I was younger that you can triangulate someone's position arm when they when I transmit on a radio and obvious the same as your mobile phones are vacant razor yet they able to transfer before GPS they could still try glad your position within a reasonable amount of accuracy if you knew what you are doing and arm anyway I'd I'd said some things on the CB radio that's you know other people hurt Yates a partyline ride, luxurious same kind of deal but anyway and so are some people that knew how to had actually tracked me down and said my address are over the radio and I freaked out because I the penny dropped that okay Dave tracked me down and now they've threatened to come around my place and it was it was harmless in the sense that they were threatening to kill me they weren't threatening to arm the Rainier anything they were threatening to do anything that severe but I am my my my bedroom is in front of the house arm where I lived and I would wake up during the night and I would look out the window at the car driving car slowly and I would just freak out because I'm like is that them have they contracted down and arm it's it took me months to get over that icy website what they call arm are sitting on the side of the radio whereby you just listen you don't actually put anything out there and I and I realise years but you need to have this conversation sought to bring some of that back it's like I cannot imagine that I would say the least idea how many times worse you must go through and it's pretty much exactly like arm you my husband has a secret Nazis is every time he he wipes through the front door be caters every time anyone is on the porch a understandably worried that they can kill me arm near their service level paranoia out for me 24 seven Avicenna France last week and LAA at this moment was walking around and I didn't feel scared hours outside Ian that was new to me are sell it's it's very much like what is sad is just on a higher level are the difference being Natalie as my dress up there arm I have multiple people that are said to what we are away on lender can kill me sell arm you know is just frankly exhausting in its it's night is not an exaggeration to say I feel strongly enough about women working here in the industry that you are willing to risk my life offering Ian you my family's life sell you have to imagine just how strongly you feel about this issue to literally put all online onslaught of the Suresh Rea so okay I knew was bad brown I just didn't realise how bad it's it's like our lobster and pipe you now I do still be coming unstuck and feel our tidal assay who won the women's been primarily targeted at last made and she was she was talking about how it's just yes green charts and after the FBI that's exactly what late for me only again just sitting on the couch it's 8 o'clock last night Ian someone's as they breed you should really check out this video of this dismounted sale threatening to monitor your Purnell garden and you sit there and watch it and yet credible and arm and what can I do at that point you can either go to my closet and cry or are you now I can just kind of compartmentalising as masters account but only it's insightful you as were saying I difficult you I don't build on policy for the government to you now like I make our exams that you plan your phone and PC sell it's it is just crazy to me in the list of my advocate it's you know it's not like I have some extremist ridiculous position like leather bound: Diddy games let's get rid of Grand Theft Auto a my my position which you now basically people against me have to distort because a sell incredibly reasonable areas as an industry let's look at our hiring practices here and you change a few things cell wall and can work you can we do that in its it's such an unbelievably reasonable thing to to strive for what absolutely and that's one of the things that arm I would like to talk about is is ways that we can try and balance and that the problem is that desert momentum and I guess are a little bit of hysteresis for the Job for the one a better way describing and all this momentum in all of this arm go arm and tie female I go one of putting it arm this does this gender anger just anger is that it's built ups over such a long period of time that it's so hard for us to just you know you can't snap your fingers in order go away it needs to be a continued concerted effort to bring balance and I think that it has to start with actually enforcing arm of the law start with that is that the thing is in most companies there are sexual harassment policies when it's out there on the open Internet though it's a very different game ultimately though there are still laws against harassment and it comes back to the policing of that if it's not being police are taken seriously then what's the boss the good of having the law that says we can't do that you can't threaten someone's life well if that's not being enforced then Yates and it's pointless so let's start with that rate so step one in before set can agree more about that I think will is really hard for me to not plot politics when I discussed the stuff they think I think something we can all agree on is that the United States government can fundamentally broken at this point blank when it comes to governing arm sell what is very frustrating is unit will politics aside rate left without in any any nation needs your buddies to pass laws into you can update does lies arm and what we have the United States is that the process is so hopelessly polarised arm that we cant get anything done I can tell you there is life confusion over whose responsibility it is to respond to these things cell yet you Danielle citrine Hughes can the legal expert on this that's you know she's like the lies very clear this things that they're doing a very legal and prosecutable aren't the problem is law enforcement there is no one that is particularly mandated to respond to yellow our local law enforcement is in all respects my local police department but do not the most tech savvy people I've ever talked to my life arm sell what you have is with respect to law enforcement with total respect and down because I am paranoid about being killed all day and needed to save a new level of empathy for that plate with respect they're not really arm there indeed just this educational component that we need to and arm in a week we need new lies to kind of delineate one-person response to this because we just the current outcome as there is no like arm need a special to a special section in order to specifically deal with these sorts of yellow on online cases of online harassment and that sound like it's being underserved at this point that middling grammar you may decide to do do such sections exist on the I know I'm reasonably sure that there is a very very small arm online crimes in our division in Australia but it would be relatively smaller anything like that in the states or is it of any significant sisal not. As I haven't seen any outcome from sour you again it's easier this is a metaphor is a light that when IAM software engineer in a write code it doesn't matter what I hope the couple matters what happens like it compile and run out you know it's it's about the outcome and right now the outcome is fairly renowned outcome is in action sell in a lovely platitudes don't help me are you now Nan in this industry giving beautiful speeches about how much they support when an adult helping arm year we kind of need to get house is grandstanding gets and some actions taken so is about the enforcement and beefing up the enforcement of the laws to some of the laws exist flushing out the laws and and providing arm I think more severe penalties arm for this sort of behaviour are good places to start arm having said that it's not a trivial exercise but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try arm and I guess it comes back to 1 going back to get immunity it does come back to the I suppose the electrical electoral process in some form because that's how laws get past and that means that we need to have more more women involved to provide that balance arm and that level of government which is another thing that is is not balanced arm I'll admit I haven't done research specifically on those numbers but I'm not I'm not sure maybe are you aware of whether or not women are well represented in the arm in in government in America is on the it's doubly on the there is an increase in the snow where it women are 50% of the population and it it's nowhere near that are ones that I find very very very very interesting did you know that arm women it doesn't matter if we are on the rate of the last politically we agree on more a woman it's on the rate in the last as far as the policies we support down arm of woman on the left and Emil Margaret cell I think I think that it is a common experience that women share and arm example look at what happened of Wikipedia which is arm year was really scary outcome basically how the budget Nan on the highest ruling party other Wikipedia yet some surveys have shown that 9/10 editors at Wikipedia mail it shows in the decisions they make in the can of tech the sum made decisions about gimmicky Wikipedia page that were tremendously antagonistic to the women involved arm I can even use some of the language the people of years to kind of vandalise my Wikipedia page because it is a family shell plate arm you know it's it's it's really frustrating and I think with all respect you to 2 guys out there until they are really run into very frequently is are a lot of men are truly unaware that they can speak for when they count just inform themselves and make a decision that is good enough for me here in the states we used to have this all this old arm idea before ligament arguments against were big and direct Beltway as older husbands can just about to shut you very much the same when you have these kinds of our this kind of judgements and the truth is the women are some homogenous force if you look at what I believe what Rennie believes where neither believes awaits Ellie believes that were all different people and we are different priorities allow different personalities you publicly plate arm is a common thread the common experience that we have and you know I just think that that prospective is really really critical as you shall Sambo Gallardo blowback in her book lenient art from people that felt like she was to cooperate or whatever but there is an anecdote that she started the book with that I loved it and it was arm of Howell when she was pregnant she really needed a close-up parking space because it was so difficult like and then when she rose up into the leadership she was able to implement that for other pregnant women go in her department so I think that there is a certain end of women you can get involved art. Because your feminism is not about what eyebrow will believe it's about what with shell and I think that just getting the number higher than 90% of this problem solve themselves exactly and if you bring a balance to the right places then the things that are not currently getting attention will get the attention that they need and it's a matter of I suppose trying to break into those circles and into the boys clubs if you well and that's and that's part of the challenge so you so before we go any further I like to about a second sponsor in the yard as so is an easy and affordable way to learn need can instantly stream thousands of courses graded by experts in their fields of business software web development graphic design audio and lots and lots more weight to me listing they have enormous library of tiles to choose from with new courses added every day to make sure the library is both relevant and up-to-date they were directly with experts from many different industries and software 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the go as well since has iPhone iPad and android apps they also support playlists and provide certificates as evidence when you complete courses and if your LinkedIn you can publish them directly to your profile so you're mentioning before Breanna that's out when you got into a software development that does is very helpful for you in this story love to tell you being here in Boston arm you are very frequently granted colleges and evaluate students portfolios arm and sometimes I cannot tell you how many times have gone to a college where it is children are being charged like $40,000 a semester in an ulcer derelict in their professional portfolio and I just want to cry because there are the nine employable arm year when the truth is learning the staff there is no secret to it it's what I call but ensure time and you colleges are really good way to learn that in a structured way and that certainly pout that you prepared to make the most of it and take advantage that education like it can be a really positive thing for me I've never had a class in any of the stuff arm your title mainly background is just a get out there and learn it in and our yard will attempt to sharpen my and I'm sorry to sharpen illustrated by had no background in reading work so you I signed up for Lynda and just kind of started learning those programs bowling the tutorials and in I think we should do very impressive game for a tumour size are you never paid a dime for tuition and I just I think if you're gonna be a success arm I think it's really more up to you who you are on the inside in your drive rather down your what what college that you go to arm you don't think TAC is necessarily merit I proceed but I do think it the skill you bring to the table shouts and here I just buried the outlet also sponsors us a wonderful product absolutely AR and it is something the use of the resonators well with some earlier episode of the of the show episode 10 passion over academic proof and where I basically arm I take about an hour and 1/2 to say what you said which is basically if you got a passion for something you you can learn about through alternative means you don't have to go through the whole academic process to become effective at what you do if you have a passion for it and have got all the different training courses that you could ever want so we need to do is basically get stuck in is used by millions of people around the world and has over 3000 courses just on topics like web development photography visual design business as well as other software training like Excel WordPress and photoshop youth can think of it they got a course about so literature it's it's incredible so when was it worth for one low monthly price of $25 you get completely unlimited access to over 100,000 video tutorials in's library but Premier members arm with an annual plan can download courses to their iPads iPhones android devices and watch them off-line our premium payments can also download project files and practice along with the instructor so bit for a while and have enjoyed the content on and off the years as has Breanna and am happy to be able to provide pragmatic listeners with a special offer to access all the courses were free for a 10 day trial visit to try free for 10 days that's LY thank you once again to for the continued support of pragmatic okay so I guess we need to start wrapping up i.e. arm what I wanted to do was I guess trying focus on things that are going to have a practical arm benefit platitudes like you say don't help necessarily it's really I think platitudes can motivate action but platitudes and of themselves are not action so it's it's all well and good to to say any to do something but it's far more useful actually do it so I think getting more women involved in the arm not just it will let you mention Wikipedia but that's that's definitely one one example but in terms of the legislative point of view are more women involved in our in government and ends you at all levels of government such that there is more balance and that these issues are brought to the forefront I think from a business point of view there needs to be arm better enforcement of sexual harassment policies because I said the policies in businesses exist every company I work for the last two decades has had a sexual harassment policy I think maybe a decade and 1/2 but certainly you there's a policy but the problem is that the that the women arts income and wealth do not discourage bit I pipes I sat a room and I've watched arm young women be harassed falsehoods of different reasons sometimes it's it's subtle sometimes it's not and they don't come forward because they don't feel safe to do so and I think that it's a matter of companies and need to re-examine just how seriously they take this and it's also a matter of people if it if guys wanting what they can do it's a matter of you like be professional be courteous be kind be supportive if someone is being harassed offer to help them don't turn a blind eye you just perpetuating the problem and I think that with enough time and concerted effort eventually we will get there it's just I what what frustrates me is how long it's taking was so much further than where we were but we still got so much further to go I think are also saying something I'd noticed the light we have this conversation is in the light of the conversation tends to go to sexual harassment which is in fact a very serious problem by yield is that the totality of the problem I would actually estimate that discriminate in my own opinion in you to be clear and nine parent but from what I've seen I actually believe discrimination against mothers is one of the biggest plates that we have in technology I could name you 20 authority for any women are now their engineers software engineers the kind of got no support after you had children and arm you because of that kind of year there weren't valued there were kind of night considered for promotion in the same way argue that employers were not flexible and arm units are really big problem so I think you have units like the really frustrating as people consider it it's a paper problem which it is but they wanted just crown like little girls into that the end of the pipeline and then all understand that there are obvious leaks along the way it's like social pressure elect when you're your teenager and your morning the staff it's you no pressure to say is just absolutely every step of the way arm if I could change one thing because like like me you can have someone that enjoys concrete action items arm I am tired of having conversations with Nan in the industry that day that they are doubt this conversation the girl while well I wanted my one weathered dirt under still not apply to scared to look down its take itself frustrating decoders like people in game development link metal gear solid fibres but come out on the lake created a dynamic animation system for your horse to poop is your writing like you're altering up hiring pipeline so women are considered more along the way that is beyond me working at its own site like you was proving that we can't sell something I found out arm your joint space Now are now the another new trouble hiring with my company in the reason it is like I have a reputation for treating women fairly actually believe a woman bikini and that was arm she had enough experience to get hired for our email a mid-level engineering position and she was coming into hire as my assistant because she just went to work for a company that Tapley was helping me hoping that an engineering position would open up self-reliant of these companies I think they just don't realise that their culture pushes women away and you now their cellmates arm I think allow people to understand that sometimes women will talk about your company with other women in the field and we very much a conversations like you do want to work there you don't want to work there you now there we can target up so you went up a company is where women are applying because the reputation sucks cell arm I think there is now something else I believe in is growing count either this is very much a core of what we do a joint space Are given example a horizontal position a few weeks ago Ian is she wants to deal become again developer it has nothing to do with her hijab data hired for bunker touring 10 hours a week over and again development Katrina in the pipeline and it's my hope that she will grow and learn in a to B again developer it will become a very powerful part of a company and in that kind of trusting people like finding people whether the personality showed a lot of self-determination and caves hiring down in building them up I think that something company should really look at because the truth is because of the historical discrimination against women you some of us don't look so great on paper are another example is I know a lot of arm in friends of mine were children that year the work to software engineers and like the other mid 20s and then they won't headcount is another 40 in the trying to get back into it you know it I think they're all these ways we can have a look at the problem holistically and kind of innovate you to bring women in the door and because I absolutely believe that if you're a woman you have to deal with so much PR's in this field that you really want to be here and I think because about liquor drives like hire to you to achieve yet I believe it is absolutely true and the hardest working our engineers in in general if I would look at and again this is the subject of this is as my eyes looking it's at MySpace but in in the engineering fields I work in I would say that there are far more hard-working arm female engineers and there are hard-working mail engineers arm had that the guys are far more likely to drop by your cubicle and just gas bag about sports on the weekend rate whereas the women are I you know you cannot you turn your email in the morning and there is an email sent at 1030 last night's go from you from Sharon and it's like okay arm because you know you know that she's got army a shop membership marriage got two kids and she got very busy life and yet she is she is literally been a candle at both ends to to do it to do the best job possible and I hope for me that's what matters I care what the gender is our like I care what the result is which is you work hard you do a good job I respect that and I just wish more people simply saw it that way took to gender off the table and Sibley said look are you good at what you do yes no yes then you would like to have you would like to keep and will do everything we can to keep you no matter what it is so I will get little I think that's true that I think because of unconscious discrimination I rental a lot of guys without that mindset the danger of it is I think so that we find in the industry is its its men deciding what has about men deciding who's glad men deciding you know what has merit Ian I think I think sadly this kind of well delivered the gender a look at the the the work aspect of it I feel even with the best of intentions sometimes unconscious bias comes into play decoders here I just I simply do believe second Mrs is a nonparent I believe that like a 40 year old mum with a cat is valued much less by mail engineers and a 40 year old dear father Ian I think that there is live unconscious biases that people bring to the table and I think because about AA think that a thinker and a point where we need to get a little bit more in-depth with the solutions than the you know I agree I guess the the problem for me as I feel a guy I need to start somewhere and I II try it devices may well be deeply ingrained and is something that everyone needs to learn to recognise in themselves and sometimes it takes of the people pointing out arm for us to look in the mirror and really see ourselves and how we act and an CSC our true reflections but the truth is that's arm with such a such a skewed percentage are such a gender imbalance in a pay imbalance as it stands arm I like to think that some some progress is still something arm II guess I am I feel frustrated because arm I wish that there was more than I individually could do and I guess the best advice that I can, with maybe got better advice I'll really would like to hear boats I think it comes down to supporting women in those roles are like from a legislative point of view like our higher up in companies and is in making sure that they are taken seriously and taking them seriously and not an end understanding your biases and putting that to one side and focusing on the best outcome for for everybody I think that the women that's that that's really what we need to skip women involved in the process and in young Sadie gambling fee out there are a lot of women do have different approaches to the career and yell quality the 90 and that's your feminism is not a diet on the diet a specific point removing to its its continual Ian it's not Oliver voices since not all of our opinions sell you know just just make sure you're doing everything we can to include it and have to mention this leak is discriminated as winner in this field it is much worse for you now black people are listed in America arm the other stats are much worse at that they face a lot more are historical by itself here this isn't just about when this is about everyone else Ian this is something I say with the utmost compassion that I think sometimes when we have these conversations arm I think that the weight street man there then in charge of this field for sell long I think they truly unaware of Howell privileged that they are here in the entire Culture is connected dealt in your image the institution so review the way we networks are reviewed the products and print markets are viewed the way we market is to give it out there all these assumptions set 88 I think good people that think you're blind to just how much this pyramid has been dull for it Ian I think going for attackers can be more inclusive for everyone else and I think for some people is tap becomes more diverse I think it it feels like something is being taken away to down personally via the truth is the absence of privilege isn't Prussian its equality for everyone and I think like making an environment where everyone feels comfortable not just one specific type of person I I am the light of empathy for what atmosphere like blade you know it's really important in NL AI would root you just think about what I deal with everyday just 20 games made with women and can I feel very strongly about this and email and I will just previously appreciated if your listeners were kind of you think about that kind of go outside themselves try think about this problem is from someone else's perspective absolutely and I and I hope the same as well and as for the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this because I know that you are very passionate about any been very vocal about it and frankly you've been put through a hell of a lot and I and I really do appreciate your time you're taking the time to talk about this on the show because arm II sometimes I actually worry that maybe arm people focus a little bit too much on just this asthma is I wanted to Brown about this one thing and lose sight of the fact that revolution 60 is an awesome game that the truth is that it's both and I I do appreciate I really do appreciate your time to talk about I do cool so if you would like to talk more about this are you can reach me on Twitter at John Geagea are and you can see all my stuff on my side to avionics any feedback please use the feedback from the website and that's where your stuff on show notes for this episode and the casts pragmatic and don't give out T-shirts arm both genders are capable link in the show notes grab on weekends any week left to go so grab and also don't 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Brianna Wu

Brianna Wu

Brianna is the CEO of GSX and their game Revolution 60 is available on iOS and Steam (for Mac and PC).

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.