Pragmatic 82: Tesla Part One

6 October, 2017


Elon Musk is considered by many to be a technological visionary. In this, the second in a series of shows about Elons projects, we look at Tesla, its history, its cars the practicalities of what Elon’s trying to achieve.

Transcript available
Discussion circling the practical application of technology by spring we will do our great ideas and change nothing is seems on your host John Geagea and today I'm joined by special guest Mr Kaleb Elston he doing each are doing well of yourself very good very good thank you and thanks for coming on the show I have been listening to your pot just the other tether show for quite some time now and I thought you would be the perfect man to get on the show to have a chat about test and doing a series of farmed episodes about Alan musk and his ventures and Tesla I have to admit is prepare the one that excites me the most and I know that your theme yet it's something that I hear the phrase been around sometimes in Silicon Valley that dumb that certain companies are changing the world and when I look at Tesla I think that Hazlitt is actually the company that is actually changing the world in a real tangible sense and everything they're doing so on the ever excited to abound so without further ado start a little bit about down the history of Tesla because I started out thinking along time ago Ireland musk found Tesla rate technically not true and think rate here arm my neighbour hired and again in marked opening were actually the two founders and then another fellow Ian rate is now working on elective trucks hours are the first employees are sometimes his group then is one of the early founders sound but essentially in Warren and Mark knew each other arm from previous venture they're done together our media which was a e-book reliever company arm and are they actually ended up selling the company rate before the crash in 2000 is around 200 million bucks and are one of the reasons they talk about that they ended up getting into electric car is in one of the status of motor as well as add it to do big things one McMorran had gone over a Saudi Arabian sensor are some of the devastation of what it meant to have a whole can't be built on oil and is revealingly as an engineer that clearly oil was not going to be a sustainable resource that is definitional and finite resource and so are we would need to transition away from fossil fuels and an oil and certainly transportation is one of the largest consumers of that and then also the realisation that in their e-book reader as they had been using a new battery chemistry, lithium ion and that was much higher energy density are per kilogram and so essentially they were able to get a lot more power into these e-book readers and a lot smaller class and weed and realising that this technology might be applicable for other modes of of usage and so those two pieces really came together for them when they're really digging into transportation and saying okay what is the most efficient way to move something our ground-based transportation with your sausage use and as they were looking through our gasoline and switchgrass then you now bar hydrogen and all these different methods are in a battery electric vehicle really was just off the charts the most efficient and best sort of complete energy solution and so that's sort of how they got started and the and anyone on the side positive coming into wanting to do an electric car as well and was introduced to them by the sky Alan Kony over a term easy propulsion which was building a prototype bar high-end roadster style field vehicle into those two guys got introduced and the instead of our building it himself decided to invest in Tesla motors arm and be one of the first big investors you throw my understanding arm was that he actually led the first round of our financing arm to the tune of about 7/2 mil arm when he was given he became chairman of the board of roundabouts arm you think a 56 may be surmising someone that arm yet you and daily at 11 another round of financing a year later for about another 13 and arm although still privately owned I think Tesla razor 40 million in the third round of funding arm tween musk another company are called is that our technology partners I think that was in 2006 seven think arm sourcing all this money into it arm and anything it was instinct has laws focusing on was that they were trying to build a complete car racing on unbolt from the beginning and they were just trying to the focusing on I think the key differentiator which was the year the electric drivetrain technology and are they signs a contract of locus Lotus locust Lotus on the arm in July in 2005 and Lotus were going to build our essentially a chassis I think arm and outlet Tesla focus on what they thought was the key differentiator that that that sort was my take on anyway yet that that's it that's right the down there originally didn't have the intention or a business plan set up to build a car from scratch are they thought they would barely do this for me now couple dozen million dollars and the weathering and intuit wise take a the propulsion system the motor system from this easy propulsion licence that they cut the motor and battery system are and then go to Lotus and the licensee Lotus Elise Chasse system so our loggers could focus on the car building pirate and NAND tassel would combine the mile and do some modifications as needed and the nebula to sell an electric car and really start to make people excited about electric cars again unfortunately as the monocyte about in the past both of those presumptions and it being wrong that are actually easy propulsion system was useful as a demonstration vehicle arm but from the motor controller was actually analogue which was kind of insane and so they had to rebuild the motor controller are it was built to use a transmission as there can have a two-year transmission but they had massive primes of the transmissions with the roadster program and we get into and then the other the other begs of conceit was that he believes in moderate outsider battery packs and what they other lesser realising and was that they can do that because there battery packs for the easy propulsion system were Eric called and so that had the downside of both causing degradation of the boundaries of your call batteries you can get less range of time and also you have a higher risk of thermal runaway which basically is a fancy way of saying the barrier catch fire arm and sell they needed to our redesign out with liquid cooling so they basically had to come up with a call their own proprietary system for that and then getting rid of the transmission they ended up coming up with their own motor and design which could go at a much higher RPM and keep hi talk so that you could get both that acceleration quick acceleration rather and height up speed so in the end and the other big thing I say an ear on the lower side as you that I will just take Lotus Elise and Terry modified a little bit when it happened was when you put the battery pack in the car is now 30% heavier and so you need to adjust the suspension and the Chasse are the need to lengthen the Chasse bed and they had new brakes and essentially in the end only 6% of the pirates in the Tesla roadster were shared not just with the Elise build any vehicle on the road and so assertive in the end I think they properly wouldn't have that approach are the same way arm and a ceremony because I think a lot of folks as they are well roadster was as a Lotus Elise and in actuality to dig into you were in each of the pirates and what went into it really was more of a custom vehicle just wasn't design from a clean sheet of paper arm is also like buying a house and renovating it but you strip down to the studs and yet here how the challenges of other renovations ever fresh build yet it it had that feeling of being arm agree was that it seemed like a good idea at the time and when it came down to the practical nuts and bolts of the engineering it didn't work out the way I kinda got the feeling that the young of the roadster which arm muscles they just have a chat about these dumb kind of when a candidate almost happy to stop making it I think arm I think is a very frustrating car for them based on what the outside looking in arm but in any case arm so so I just was celibate with some with the roasted ants the rest of you with a two seater mail roadster and that some stud shipping 2008 I think it was you they sold about 20 2500 just under think thereabouts between 2008 2012 arm before they pulled it from production is that iconic feeling are happy to do that arm but the last 15 they built were special edition only had styling differences not actual performance changes but anyway there are three major versions that roasting they called them which was which is odd because in the naming convention would jog talk about the more more recent cars is totally different but I saw I don't know how official it was they call it a 1.5 to put on the 2.5 I think that was leading that actually bad deal that the the car that way David Maestas what they called them not sure yet yet I was more assertive and engineering version number as it was only car is out officially called the Tesla roadster which is quite different in the way they badge and then there are the cards as you mentioned here it was definitely a unplanned for restorative naming scheme I think they didn't fully realise as many start-ups down in the beginning exactly how it can unfold so it is a dazzling idea of a vehicle for tassel and a lot of those anything don't even realise that the roadster was a vehicle because he sees a few of them as he said that the only met a few thousand of them in total so for most people are buying tassels now I think it's very possible that they don't even know the roadster existed yell it is only right every now and then I have a look upon the car sales websites and I see a Tesla roadster and a Mike call I could afford knockout and yet her quite because they really are quite expensive and there were very few that were shipped to Australia but 77 they are very very rare that some still very nice looking car that some originally a minute wait they want cheap right amount ago just under 100,000 US when they went for sale Martha sound the later models were providing another 10,000 top of that and so they won't they were cheap by any stretch the imagination and the other thing I found interesting was it think that the roadster was our small light and hence it should be the fastest intentions of exhilaration are but actually it really wasn't relative to the model S switches I will get to the species and later on but I was quite surprised arm were checked and according to what I research this is 0 to 60 time in the original 2008 was 3.9 seconds but was 3.7 seconds in the roadster sport 2010 that was the fastest that that are at the devil went on all the improvements and everything like insanely ludicrous mode and so on shall get to allow the rest is now in order so you and the vendor very first roadster arm was in the five seconds from 0 to 60 arm primarily because I had to speed transmission is retarding about that because the transmission was so faulty they laughed it in second gear from the factory so that it would be to get a highway speed and so you had the roadster in comparison to today's Tesla's was night as quick as you may imagine because I think many people who look at car as they see the roadster take vehicles are the convertible sports car is not always quicker than the manufacturers comparable sedans is just a built-in truth that Saddam can go quicker than a little toothy coop arm you were roadster but I think what tassel is really trying to do from the beginning was grand is neither liable we've seen these failed approaches to electric cars in the past of the view wine and the challenge for electric cars and it's almost funny in Queen to seen hours that you can only go 5060 miles on a charge and they had these big lead acid batteries so there really happy with it also doesn't help with with range and so that the general consensus amongst consumer is an idol journalists and the automotive industry at large in the 2000 60,000 even into thousand four 2005 timeframe was that electric arias are a novelty that maybe you can retrofit refined but enough a real use you can go more than 100 miles on them and if you could their way to expensive and customers don't want them customers like gasoline chorus as a tassel was really trying to figure out what how could we make it, that people actually would love and word have be better than a gasoline car in in its class and love the attempt as you would see in the password training go after these commuter city coroners but that isn't really a class of car the most people own arm even smile gasoline car is a petrol coroners can go very far distances and so you you really have a challenge there if you have me make a vehicle that only 50 or 60 miles of range arm so that was it was a challenge they want to eliminate how to get rid of this concern about range cell with the with the roadster they targeted 200+ miles of of range which assertive our glass ceiling aggressive from most people are developing your 200 miles 300 km about then you'll be fine than the other big thing was that the batteries were quite expensive and continue to be quite expensive but in over 10 years ago there were quite a lot more than they are today even and sell if you've guy you need 50 kWh pack arm and a $300 per kilowatt hour you've got 1520 grand Avenue battery rate there and that's pretty expensive if you try to put that into 25 and $30,000 car just doesn't work so you can sell a $20,000 car for $50,000 just because it's electric that the only class a vehicle that really has that premium and has people buying sort of on emotions versus top Europe practicality is the sports car segment and so when they identified at the sports car segment might actually be the category where you can absorb the cost of the battery and also the fact there was a smaller vehicles are you've got less wheat to tote around anyways beyond just the battery pack are and you've got this as a performance characteristic where people will pale light more if a quicker performance that the advantages of an electric motor become really are advantageous and sort of free essentially that having an incident or permanent magnet or is induction easy motor is really really powerful and so you don't have to put a big beefy engine and to get really great performance out of a small electric car to those two things of the battery pack range and the dynamics of a sportscaster of persona really is what lead and start there that they didn't indicative made the model three which is coming out which shall get you are into thousand five 2060 than 70,080 they would have but damn it just wasn't possible and so the roadster was voted the best combination of the constraints and the opportunities for what they could make it a time and lastly like you not sell many roadster is an at all and so the advantages of scale that many manufacturers have in their main line hundred thousand 200,000 300,000 are in a unity requires don't apply to their sports cars and so you can be either a boutique small manufacturer and make a living doing sports car is in Ferrari and Lamborghini are great examples of that and so they were able to compete without massive factories and massive supply relation sell it actually is a really interesting engineering as a business challenge and solve they came up with and I think a lot of that was was Myron and Dan are Mark doing that in that research and then Eli just wanting an electric sports car and when a cinematic realising that we could do together yet exactly and I feel very much like the other roadster was Saab are essentially was the prototype everything that came later and is the sort of thing that once you've passed that prototyping stage your unit will look at the proton gangsters like you can see all the wrinkles anything wrong with it and as I say I feel like they were happy to get rid of it and I don't know whether or not there ever going to bring it back or re-engineer it arm some people suggested that they may bring back some diets arm I'd but I like what they bring it back and I mean I completely redo it properly that's not an idea that they they are actually end that he lines the TZ in the past that's what started as rumours and but that now actually as them part of one of the ways Tesla gets fans engaged and gets fans to refer friends to buy coroners as this referral program and one of the reward levels at this point is that for every person referring think you get around to present off the purchase price of the new Next Generation roadster so they have announced that the roses and be there mentioned folders of anything but they're already saying give discounts after people who are existing tassel owners who refer others so it's settling in happiness just the we don't know when and what how much anything that idea or a fair enough well well armed doom three of car ECS are cool right awesome. Enough about the roses for the minerals were just quickly jump back and took a little bit more about the transition of leadership at Haslar and then will get to the model S which is which is that really interesting arm so I think our during that are about 2006 or thereabouts arm around it when it has the roadster was actually arm unveiled a thing might never highly found out it wasn't Alan arm the yard they are tested at a point when making a profit arm far from and some that the board decided that a proper new CEO might be able to do better and they got some guy that I actually was aware of from AMD and I didn't realise till I dug into this that he actually originally arm made as money from a comical monolithic memories in the 70s and 80s it had never heard of but arm I have I had come across as name previously from AMD but anyway are so they received priori market I think I'm pronouncing a correctly you and he took over an arm late 2007 arm and I am looking at what happened after that I like downsizing it feels very much like he was the hatchet man and some base getting laid off about 1/10 of the workforce at that point try and sort of cut costs a bit and get things under control and get the roadster to market arm which which you which he did were arguably he did at Haslar did after after that but in any case arm but the middle that year then they said you know Alan must we love you and I'm not sure exactly what happened to Helen Moss became CEO at that point and Drury College shuffle across to being a vice-chairman nothing is in October 2008 and then a few months later just disappeared arm and body into thousand eight I think musket and up sinking and $70 million of his own cash into the company SL strongly Alan must believe in us I want to bring up the point is that mask it if he went all in and has gone all in on Haslar and there is no question you absolutely and I think that arm a few things of note so my never hurried in and marked opening had never run a car company in my musket never run a car company and I think most of the retellings now and some of the former employees with a tugboat is that roadster programs are started to get really out of control from a cost point of view so they had taken reservations for are the vehicles and how to praise but the actual production cost of coming in many tens of thousands of dollars above what they were in a salad for arm and so that's it that's a losing proposition when you have the seller sell something for a lot less any metaphor you can go bankrupt until it's only become clear anyone was the chairman of the board rate and so he is hearing this every couple months are what's going on with the program and being line are not quite impressive with how things were being being managed and Ryan but he is also busy over a space acts as a CEO space X and trying to get rockets into space and so he is clearly involved debate and very financially Bassett and won the lottery shareholders in the company but the idea of becoming CEO is not something that you would take on lately Debbie Dorsey year so he gay pride in the other fellow from AMD to try and get things sorted so that they can to get the program going and get the cards out there arm but eventually I think you disregard to the point where he felt like if he didn't take action the likelihood of tussah arm surviving was gonna be lower and so he decided to be CEO and then into thousand eight when the financial crisis came he really had to invest the remainder of all of his money had made from PayPal in both space acts and Haslar and so he can win all in on both of them and so when you've guy on the hundred $50 million of your net worth investors into companies in China want to be in charge of them and sell arm there is enough to claim the huge tour of tried to seize power and I'm sure my neighbour I would have a different opinion but think is pretty clearly are when you've invested damage money into a company and it's looking like I got a business you probably want to take some more control of it and down NCO is one very powerful energy that you and I think that's on on the whole it's his brought he was always there but as CEO he has a live just that little bit of extra influence and he would have had because I think boards tend to be Job were aware that the Board of Directors exists arm butts you name the people are generally most people couldn't but you never see of a company you know the CEO is so I think that our Alan is also Bob based on what I've seen different videos of him and never hardened different to other people have been involved over the years arm he is by far away the most inspirational I think that he arm pit brings that the tables well more so than the others did and that's I guess it's just distant opinion but arm and in the end I'm I am glad that he took over and he was actually around about the time just what is prior to him taking over in June arm the 2008 they unveiled the model S and Dar and when I think of of mask I think of the model as a sort of being his motor essentially has his baby coo from from birth to arm completion rights here so arm are I I love the molesting is a beautiful car ends are in some countries are at soul and is a five seater unfortunately like in Australia because our design rules state that you can't do the corporate thing our sewing boots arm there was a the seven seater option so you have the two seats rearward foldaway seats in the boot that was insane first time I saw photos and video of in my clinic can't be serious arm because I had kids that would easily fit in that and then a microorganism they come in Australia and had look in there like you can't get that option so yes nevermind strain design rules we we had that as a kid and a station wagon and does my therapies are set easily jump seats in the trunk of the station wagon sell cool minute with your kid you like chaos in the back and looking at the back broadcast waving the cars behind your something of that Southwark Summit financially did it deftly was fine I still question the safety of it but I guess maybe other governments have more stringent with the children about the only US it is kind of crazy but mostly seen in the wild out there in states with people is the rear seat now with you haven't seen any children and then I've seen the rear seats in town I live in Palo Alto Californians I think we have one of the highest densities are mindlessly I can walk about one block from my house and I could find five molasses product while it looks ridiculous that that is comical I will say but I am in Brisbane for example rather live arm we've only just got our first Haslar our dealership and it opened about a month ago and arm because it is couldn't help myself I decided I shall go and visit that has the store today none of my boys with me and I will be pulled into the garage underneath because it's in armpits and a particle fortitude Valley and our real estate is scarce so they have all parking for vehicles underneath the other dealership so we go down the car park is a shared car park with a couple dealerships and walking down there and I had never seen so many are test was almost entirely molasses are a few Xers arm I would have counted out 40 of them in this car park in my my eyeballs almost came out of my head it was some quite beautiful actually walking so arm but you could ordinarily see like one on the road if I'm lucky once a week arm going to and from work so driving in our city every every day we goes for work so you guys have a massive luxury car tax though to yes doesn't seem to help the Tesla know it really nonetheless in particular he and I really doesn't help the arm butts in any case inexpensive vehicle but for you guys it's extremely expensive here it is in the desert was the problem so well is a bit more the problem forearm for me one currently living so alas but that's okay arm I get one Sunday arm but never mind so more or less arm for the record is a large sedan and arm it started out I think about 50,000 US and started shipping in mid-2012 and are I believe that there was a version of the 40 kWh version arm you and that was discontinued pretty quickly arm didn't stick about $50,000 price point and that their promised yes and yes it didn't last now so you VM the model as they were saying was really the idea of how do we create an electric sedan from scratch now that we have learned a lot from the roadster program arm in the company is now over five years old and they have some split stability and no Achilles mega car arm but a lot of people were really down on Tacitus point because of your trying but the roadster Heller challenges a lot of delays a lot of missteps arm and so to say we can go from making the roadster to now showing after sedan are that you want to produce in some volume in go against the Mercedes and BMWs and infinities and fixing that most most generalist lighthouse was crazy and there would never be of actually make the sedan and the specs they had for it were also insane that that was can hold seven people with those two children in the back and US arm that was gonna be the quickest accelerating four-door sedan arm that was in have more storage than any sedan arm that was gonna be the girl further distance than any electric car ever seen how this massive touchscreen in the middle it's can have the honour or software updates that is basically in a beer car in a five or 10 years from the future available today and Mandy Atwood started $50,000 so it was really an incredible arm's back and they had to do a lot of work to actually get there from hiring new designers to hiring lots and lots of new engineers to buying a factory for $40 million which was one of the best deals ever 5,000,000 ft² factory the Fremont factory self a lot of pieces had come together attempt to make the model as an ending is pretty incredible that the mile as a new client glints at it from 2008 still looks like the mile as of today and yet it is a totally better car now and I think that sort of really great example of what Tesla does very differently than most other item increases investing in improvements and in a model of a time versus light and diversification of different cars are very similar to an Apple versus a lot of android phone makers if you want to take that analogy of making a new phone every couple months versus one phone that we iterate on year after year after year yet it's a good point actually and in my things I I also really like is that that the model S from the different versions that you can get the different models of the model S that you can get our it looks almost identical it what media does look identical on the outside except for the badge on the back and yet the performance is this is very very widespread performance and is in terms of acceleration as well as in terms of arm of the range and you can't tell me outside looks identical whereas other manufacturers would not do that they'd they'd say was that performance model and it's a complete different model soup in it something is different complete different looks totally different and it's it looks sportier or whatever else but you can get the slowest more or less all of us model as an externally they look identical so I can liked accenting its size and it's a nice way of doing it but you are a identical BA definitely like the idea of a single coroner that can span lots of different capabilities and yoghurt panelized socially for our buying the less expensive version really think there's a bit of a halo of if you know that tassels can go really quick arm but you didn't buy the crazy ludicrous version arm you still get the feel can't call you in a coroner could go that quick even though you're a discount and when you break up with different models it's very clear that you've got just a regular boundary three series versus an M3 or something like that and arm perhaps part of it as well as Tesla not wanting to have different versions in different models and endure the complexity that where many of these manufacturers that are competing with the vendor minister over 100 years and so they have are many many years of diversification and optimisation of the market that they're been doing arm but one of the big challenges of that as you're pointing out is that it makes it difficult for her BMW friends and to make the model fire there are five series of seven series arm that much better than M5 are more than seven because it'd be competing with their own model where Tesla is not competing with any of the other models really what I bother with my three excessively interesting new challenge for them but with the mile as they do is make it better and better and they're adding more value which makes it more appealing to more people and is more and more competitive and are not cannibalising any other product and I think that's a unique position therein they will always be habit when you have a very distinctive product categories it allows you to invest all your energy in making that price better and not worry about arm cannibalising higher margin product that you are selling to other people care about the particular characteristic you II should I really like the approach I do think longer term arm it's not can be quite that simple but I I'm hoping that they try and stay extruded as they can arm I do think that's arm one evening things about the model S is looking it's it's progression and development as well in terms of performance and arm just to quickly cover that off by zero 60 times I like to measure 60 times because it's acceleration is good i.e. am I I was had this belief that's arm with a vehicle arm there is a speed limit there is no acceleration limit therefore it so I can enjoy going from zero 60 zero hundred, is now turning upon the average arm country in that sounded as fast as I like but the other speed limit is some now it's 100 times an hour speed limit is 65 and I shall observe the speed limit but not acceleration an experiment anyway so the original version of the model is 40 killed our vision would you point out was was canned very quickly arm that it did the zero 60 and 6.5 seconds are there was a dual motor 60 D and that started about 5.2 seconds are but then causes a whole bunch between it won't go unless there is a while but it is really impressive when we look at the most recent one and talking to talk at speeds orbit further on but just as quickly 100 kWh model for the P100 D are in the 2016 model lessening was early 2017 zero 60 and 2.275 seconds and ludicrous mode which is insane but amazing and is anyway soap and 350 miles of range yeah that's right mind you have your drought dragging out about people the traffic lights I do wonder if you get the same and arrange out of our mature rate. That's that's normal driving nothing craziness but I think here that the point is that only well taken that you've got the sky that when it started was sick to have seconds and now it's progress to being capable of 2.3 ash and in the same Kara seam wheat and going from a single moderate than introducing dual motor arm to all these other improvements from better unit more and more dense pack so that the biggest density packet the power and the beginning was 85 kWh and in the same physical space they now have 100 kWh battery pack so arm just continual refinement and improvement in just five years really arm you're not long that's that's been helpful for some carmakers is worn and have generations are vehicle improvements and assigning a whole platform improvement rate we've got platforms and last 10 years so you don't usually see engine improvements to this degree in five years and I think that's the other just really incredible thing for a tassel and any car company that really takes electric vehicle seriously is that electric motors and batteries just have some many inherent benefits for a performance that would better vehicles will take advantage of an acceleration is one of the big ones now they certainly can do sustain high speed bike race cars can but your point unless you really in a few select countries at a later crew that hundred and 5200 miles an hour that's not very important and to most car buyers and with more and more traffic in cities that you're even less that the average speed of Kaiser is continuing to go down not up yell and acceleration is really saying people can feel in consents and is how Kaiser Ben performance Kaiser been sold and that Tesla is deftly playing into that very well and you don't have to you have this huge engine and throaty roar which we had either but I think some people are concerned about getting rid of the sound of performance cars but for me I love the idea of a silent accelerating vehicle I think it's the then new luxury thinkers as high-end super quiet superfast stealthy vehicle versus the big beefy American muscle car at that year young people today are not that interested in I think I think that the problem I've got is start with with the whole combustion engine and it is was either to proms of the foot first one is are the exhaust in terms of the arm the air that it's that poison and that sort of our I just had an episode of causality about some are about air pollution about the fog that killed lots of people in London arm many years ago and how pollution chimes problem and that it occurs to me that a large amount of air pollution does come from vehicles there was a big contributor to the fog in London the kill people back in the 50s but that the truth is that that's that's a big problem I don't I'd like that and the same thing as the noise and benefits because am getting older and becoming a cranky old man it's quite possible arm so try to be aware of my advices are but you know I hate the sound I've reached that point racially hate the sound of loud engines arm it just it hurts my ears when I'm driving along to me a perfect perfect world driving along at a perfect outing as perfect as it could be when you're stuck in traffic jam would be there would be no noise because in a traffic jam in the wheels are turning there is no road noise arm there would be no exhausting vehicles in a breathing in diesel fumes or or petrol fumes gasoline fumes and would be silent you here maybe the wind rustling in in in in the trees of the spots either road are and you be able to listen to the music arm on your stereo in the car quite a quite low level and very dozen is very loud and to me that's that's wonderful that would be beautiful actually and was I was so far from that butts arm what will start with a couple of cars and will get there in the end so you and anything the other thing to is that the trend with traditional vehicles due to increasing emission standards and efficiency gains is that they are already driving towards us they are building smaller and smaller displacement engines and vehicles that produce less noise and vibration the putting start start-up systems in the vehicle so they actually turn off the engine when you come to. So regular acquirers are already driving towards this quiet environment night is not from necessarily air we get a better experience but because of being dragged into it due to efficiency and siding from most customers arm very soon it will just seem weird that the car as I breeding uncontrollably and that of others extra noise it at your driving tassel as it deftly is more noticeable at lower speeds because once you get above 3540 miles an hour our road noise from tyres and windows start to become a much larger contribution of noise back when you you know cruising at 5 to 10 miles an hour 20 miles an hour around the city are dizziness suburban area it is quite designing for the first few times being in such a quite vehicle especially when you're in a backing out or are not knowing of the vehicles online for people who have hybrid vehicles at its definitely the millilambert it it can be a little disconcerting at knowing the car is aptly running because he is put on the money accelerating our help is actually a taxi on a moving are actually arm I had a previous arm our previous fee for a while for about three years and was at a quite nice car in the grand scheme of things and I used to have a game where I would try to keep the car running in all electric mode and not not push the Excelerator too hard and to see how fast I could go and I'm like I am driving a lecture on the engine started sigh anyhow butts arm it was beautiful for that up to 3540 K is an hour arm on a flat level grade. No help and it was it was electric until I discharge the tiny battery pack and I also dive also driven innocently far quite a bit as well because there is one work and some you can so blended borrowing in our little split system yeah yeah fleet of one in this particular case but yet and I thought that was beautiful other thing I enjoyed about while driving the leave in particular was that our I did I found in have to do talk loudly to the passengers in the car and I want to talk to them because there is a much less noisy so well in any case or arm so apart from electric car. Mum lost and all the positives and every night just derivable the more or less really quickly and so rapidly molest a little a lot of hours but let some whiskey move and I think are there approximately I think about 200,000 or thereabouts molasses of ships date I think getting exactly is on that is some is not straightforward but I think that's about right you that that's about right and the announcement about a run rate of around 25,000 vehicles per quarter which includes the asses and the exes arm globally arm and so we had the sort of steady stated at around 100,000 vehicles per mile as an expert but the expert you that their answer of luxury car of volume 4 of two models arm and was interesting is when you look at registrations for a large luxury sedans and is a US number so apologise further global listeners but the model asses the year that single largest car sold in the US for the category so it is my lesson Mercedes-Benz S class and in the seven series and everyone else's is pretty far behind that self what that is interesting to me is like when you look at luxury vehicles and type of person who buys $100,000 $80,000 vehicle arm there are competing tassel competing with Mercedes and BMW and and is an art arm weak competitors and yet they are the most popular in the segment and sell from Tessa's vantage point and I think for a lot of people who are very excited about the future of tussah when they see that they say well if Tesla can make one of the highest performing vehicles in its segment in a very competitive luxury segment and a very discerning buyer and also one that is very focused on cachet and not pure performance necessarily what happens when they introduce an SUV and introduces small sedans and a small SUV or a pickup truck what kind of market share could they garner because the large luxury sedan market is not very large and they're still selling 2012 13,000 of them per quarter and so that's sort of the big thing that the model asses would have a harbinger for is night its individual unit sales it's tiny tassel will admit they not produce many cars are now compared to the 17 million cars sold in the US and the hundred million sold in the world it's as if the spec speck in the ocean right now arm but the important pieces for people who worked looking for this type of car there tend to choose Tesla more often than either vehicle and class and and that I think a lot of people don't actually internalises as much when there evaluating tassel were trying to poke at them because I quell the gutters huge factory are used to produce 500,000 car is only making 100,000 year arm and sets of that is a big piece and think one thing which I see will flow through the other vehicles is a public interest into to the listeners is this idea that Tesla is the only comic rate now that does functional over the air updates that actually up the likely control units for the vehicle you know you can get map updates for some companies get some apps that are in a very thin layer in like Microsoft think whatever but tassel actually updates the firmware of the vehicle to change controls to change the way that the weighbridge work to adjust your headdress automatically to change the method of coming into the vehicle arm to push suffer updates to autopilot which is what I can about to updating you I completely and the important thing is that you get those for the life of the car so if you buy one of those early model asses you're still getting you suffer updates and I think that is such a progressive point of view and still life you design no car company is doing this yet and it's partly because they don't have the software engineering talent and ability to take on the integration of this system is to have the confidence that the system is secure arm want to thank tassel does above and behind a lot of other car companies down is that integration between the software and hardware and their computer system that they train consolidated into the compute in their own central computer versus thousands and thousands of individual computers are running in all these other subsystems that their suppliers provide them and that we are one of the reasons car interfaces are so poor is that the car companies and the one really making it the supplier which means that when you get it it's already a few years old because it's been validated and its refusal to nap because it had to go to this entire program and probably not be refreshed until they refreshed the whole car with maybe another few years so many current faces are over a decade old running on decadal hardware where tassel is running on somewhat minor and Nvidia hardware is that they are refreshing every couple weeks so it's hard to compete with that arm and have the suffer experience especially as people care about that so much more arm and it certainly is not perfect a lot of people who have tassel have lots of complaints other software but at least there car could be improved arm and I think that's a huge advantage that specify me being in software is so clearly the way the future and yet no other car has it yet five years and is pretty flabbergasted it's it's an interesting point I think about arm want things Apple arm used to go on about quite a bit and I think I guess I still do is about owning the end-to-end experience between our everything from un-boxing product turning it on arm to how hardware and software works together and so on and so forth and that that integration they own every step along the way and lead in the driving that ownership further and further now down to the chip level and you know and then they've now because I got PA semiconductor Aladdin that they have a range of team and that they're doing some of the stuff themselves are ends they control experience has very much the same Rose auto manufacturers I think they look at as well so that they would from a more traditionalist sort of what's our core competency in our core competency is to make a car to get people from point A to point B and they don't they see software is something that arm it makes it may be has more of a luxurious sort of arm task feel to it maybe it's something more modern that may attract the luxurious are sort of luxury buyers is not saying that they would put into their cars by default and if you look at the ranges of most are my manufacturers the the ones that actually do have a nice software there are typically the higher end luxury versions of the cars as opposed to some the entry-level cars whereas Tesla don't see it that way our tendency is an integral part of the experience and they would never do that they will always have software as an integral part of their vehicles because I believe that it makes sense and the and is part of their core competency and I think that the problem is that it can be a lot easier for other water manufacturers to go electric than it is to go out to to a fully supported software solution with over the updates because that's actually a far bigger paradigms shift for them to deal with arm progressively then actually just adding an electric drivetrain so you at absolute at a totally agree and I think you know to your point the people inside of a company are what make the company what it is so obvious but if your company is filled with people who interface with thousands of other contractors and you have mechanical engineer is an idol engineers who are used to bending metal and the big competency in most item makers is building engines and integrating the engine into a unity they do the stamping on the core engineering for the vehicle but then the HVAC system the computing system that breaks most of those are outsourced to the Q1 supplier and so if you see it commercial for a new automatic emergency braking system from Axa Y manufacturer 99% of the time they did not build that themselves in houses coming from supplier and so as a result you will find that those sort of arm I built for spec and for someone who is buying for procurement and the other challenges that are because the idle industries at a low margin business the buying teams have a lot of power and as Apple has ducked about in the past it's very unlikely that enterprise buyers are prioritising user experience in the spec sheet is very rarely is a slight from on your sheet and so you make sure can connect all the things that you don't care how well does it and the person buying it isn't necessarily the person who is actually going to be using it and that creates big problems arm and so create a totally agree think the Tesla's offer advantages going to be much more durable than you having electric motor is now the battery pack ice might be are quite durable and they're doing a lot of work there in arm with the gig factory in and other activities to try and make battery packs very low and the other big thing they want to push China's manufacturing were to think people in the least confident they're going to be good at but I tend to think that he may be because of the automation but will get that air absolutely and I think that some we should always supplement the molecular sort of we sort of farm which a property just keep moving will be there because the Molex from my personal perspective cocaine down because I got four kids so I find I need mossy to my car so arm anyway so yes the Molex is a genuine seven seater and exactly actually comfortable 70s and I can say exactly someone now arm a lot of similar to the test shop and dumb it was ice in the back row and I was quite surprised how easy it was to get in and out our end that the Mill Road doors icon of the distinguishing feature on the Molex so it is an SUV and it's the doors they DO they call them Falcon wing doors but which is a are I guess a karmic sense of the way of a falcon would fold its wings conifer has a hinge are at the and at the top and apex of the outside corners of that makes any sense because the best way to think of it as a DeLorean DMC 12 arm and was like saying DMC 12 because the law and have only made one car that the them on that arm before John DeLorean got some busted bit of mind idea that the other falcon windows I think people think of gold indoors and the only hinge of the tarpon that that my lack stories important pieces that have the two hinges are dimensions that they actually consider built up and then out versus just sort of on a sweeping arc yet exactly and it was one of there are couple problems with the big DeLorean going to door I don't have any other cars actually have going doors I think there are a couple but the DeLorean is the one that only one I know of the novel to my head a few Lamborghinis I think okay I know Galambos had dust Isidore's arm yet and citizen I'll I guess that there is a small Mercedes at the galling second-year sales – I think you're right that he was Mercedes was thinking of that arm in any case the problem of the going is used as a wide arc and that doesn't work if you're in a confined space so the advantage of having a going door in this case Falcon wing door is that you can actually have a more genuine floor-to-ceiling hour and more headroom and the ability to actually walk in and out of the vehicle as opposed to having a are a higher lip and Diana step to get into a high vehicle and then having to duck your head to get in and was most people I think were all, used to that because we've had no option in most vehicles it's just inside opening door site indoors arm come to think about something trying to think if that is actually the technical name but a normal door and I'm in so arm with honey used to watch actually get into our model acts in the in the middle of the back rows it it really is quite tar quite nice is a heck of a lot more comfortable union out are in any case arm I know that they had a lot of production problems are with that and perfecting the design getting a good seal against the elements and getting reliable operation turned out to be quite challenging I think and I think it delayed the Molex quite quite a bit more arm butts I note I still maybe wasn't so smart in the end but geez they look nice they're very very distinguishing and they are very convenient but in any case arm so you just the doors apart from the yes I am getting excited about doors but hey ya think that you think the door is certainly them the most arm distinctive feature of the model acts and the shape of the vehicle think some people equated to disorder taking a mile ass and inflating a little bit and jacking it up and it is based on the model acts platform and chassis arm and so it wasn't even really a planned vehicle allowance or some of the inside info on it it's intriguing is that the original plan arm was to do the roadster to do a sedan and interview and even lower costs are down and the in-line team decided to inject sort of step 2.5 into the year into the plan and create a smile acts and their original intention was well just take my lesson Megan SUV version like a lot of the car companies do without the platform and they just slap a bigger bionic but my seeds and you got my space arm and that would have been fine I think that was originally the plan was to really train so slide in their make it a lot faster to building quick and to suit the at that point still super growing segment of love people who wanted SUVs are and especially so this more arm are sleek activity that is not built on a truck chassis like the old SUVs of the 90s and and so they started taking reservations for the model acts almost in less than a year after the mile ass was introduced so there are just starting production mile ass and the dating reservations for a prototype model acts in 2012 so they expected to get it out and about in a two years in early 2014 arm but it it actually didn't come out until September 2015 and sell in a year and have lead arm and that was just a dribble over of unit cell and they took two more quarters only till the first quarter of 2016 the releasor shipping any volume which was a few thousand vehicles and 1/4 so yet you rated it did have many problems and in-line leader is tight about really that it was their hubris and he blames himself for putting into much technology and ink as a style that was taking longer and longer to build the Adding more and more features versus just starting and shipping were they had and so the dories took a huge amount of time are and they also added a new filtration system were taken by a weapon biohazard weapon defence mostly arm which basically is a happy filter EX them the surface area of most sky filters arm is positive pressure that actually pushes out of the vehicle and when it's pressurised which is impressive and unnecessary but stealthily call arm it it has had this massive front windshield arm which is sort of equated to select a helicopter where it's cut the massive glass and having driven it it my favourite feature of the vehicle arm they introduce a new material for the CDCs are taking and doing all the seeds in house during this time so they brought out on the seating system are on the second role instead of seeds that are a bench arm them unopposed and today move individually arm which is in like a little bit crazy arm and those are controlled by software arm and so yam in this car is chock full of technology and down and think for folks who have now it's great that you know they don't suffer updates now whether the Falcon wing door as the ultrasonics and Emily built a new type of centre that can see through the metal arm so that he doesn't have a little warts that you'd see further parking centres unlike vehicles so it the took a lot of time to try and get this text and get it sorted out but eventually anything now combine while acts from the factory it's an really great state but this is a recurring theme protest as well as one of the big things get slammed for arm I think really just depends on your point of view for products and how companies operate so there is only model you could take where you say we are going to develop this product completely in secret with anti-elder testing everything we can make it perfect when a like it up in a bath and asset ship it and it never improves but there are very few problems and that it doesn't seems to death does take a different approach where they arm train run as fast as possible as a forcing function to getting stuff done quickly and then some things don't get finished in time or to the quality level they necessarily wind are and extra shipping to customers in a state where they know it can continually improve because they make hundreds of changes every month to their chorus tiny little changes when most car companies don't really do many running line changes like that and so if you're in the moment of cassowary like what were always can be improving anyways so once it reaches a point or at least confident that it's good enough readership and down people use that with vehicles they use to them being pretty much solid because never again improving and on every 10 years where Tesla is sort of sees it as a continually improving thing and they have service centres to fix things if things really wrong but Hospital the time that the best time to buy tassels right now because it always can be better dollars but the best version rate now and yet they cannot due to many big changes all at once which frustrates buyers certain buyers but arm think it it certainly unusual for the item initially to behave this way and that is how Tesla is able to arm push push on boundaries and down they take advantage of the fact that suffer updates where the balcony door is now operate about 2X speed than they did when they shipped because they've made suffer updates and improve the algorithms for its detached detecting in a dories in going to the crack Hayden not heading things and you now some of the early doors did do that and yet still up in the air whether or not that's the inner going to hurt them help them but ultimately they've got so many loyal happy customers who one thing on the car as say they never Wanna buy another car that I think it's kind of hard to say it's the wrong approach protester when their customers tend to be so happy and one Abydos chorus with future you that II think that the model is fine so long as you've got the ability to do repairs and replacements and upgrades as necessary and has I have DLF illustrated that there more than happy to do that arm where they had issues they've had no issues were recalls and is an and break-ins retrofitted arm into the armour plating I think on the arm the battery packs which will talk to talk about little bit arm is an example I think that's ultimately hard maybe maybe when they go to a much bigger scale things will change it for the moment when you got production volumes at that level I think you can be far more agile and you can do some psychic refinement and I think that it's probably that the best end result is that what Tesla got a lot of that they want to do with the cars and then just happy to just let it be the monarchy pushing the envelope and I feel like arm with with traditional manufacturers do not quite in that space there in the space of like the Fords that the Chevrolets are the Toyotas and Hondas of the world that their business is to crank out more of the same keep it consistently but reliable arm wealth depending on the manufacturer I'm pretty sure most them see that way and some you know you will get some things out some because I have to take back first generation of a vehicle for example a 10 year platform IQ mentioned earlier like the first January you expect you have problems like we have first gen are vehicle at the moment is the Toyota Fortuna and the particular this particular model had issues with diesel particulate filter so we had to take it back and yet it was covered under warranty but it's the first of its first generation so you expect a few problems like that but apart from that unspectacular change now for the next five years like you could buy this at Fortuna next year be probably exactly the same arm note nothing new no updates to same old maps which are rubbish by the way and then he said before that some infections do over the update I wish that they did I read updates for the young the maps because you getting a map update for this car is gonna cost thousands of dollars and it's why would I do it I just I get my my iPhone on a windscreen suction mount and dump just load up our sidekick or Navigon or whatever and that's always up-to-date maps and is now all Google Maps or Apple maps and that's what I am bowler but you don't want either Tesla because it's all up's or Google Maps embedded into the main screen and much bigger than the iPhone screen anyway so I'm actor on the point about the complexity the model X I think Alan even said at one point was the hardest car in the belt to build in the world you I want and I will not that was actually true I was just his frustration speaking but in terms of component count I do not that's actually true or not but there is some they could have made it easier for themselves I guess is the thing anyway you and I think they have recently learned a lot from it and one of the pieces that has flown herself gone through to the model three is the very large piece of glass and unfortunately in my mind is on the back of the vehicle and that of the front arm but the model three years as a huge piece of glass from the rear trunk area to the centre should be pillar and they said that the answer is getting good at building these really large pieces of curved glass arm glasses very cheap and it's of the raw materials in glass are certainly cheaper than manual and so if you can come up with a manufacturing process that are that works at scale having glassing acquirers can be a lot cheaper arm and so they've taken that learnings from it and I think a lot of the detection algorithms they've done for the mile acts for the falconry dories will be helpful to them as well as they do deeper and deeper parking sensor and sort of low-speed detection in idle pilot and so I think we tassels are a recurring theme is because they do somewhat to the development themselves and their trying to push are the limits you find that that technology is and something that they own it is not a supplier and they have that know-how and they how that technology in-house and so when they want to bring it to future vehicles and it will it will benefit them even feels quite painful arm and I think that is certainly one of the biggest business reasons and product reasons why having more vertical integration and is is beneficial arm is you get to keep those learnings in house and bring them to future products so while most people never own the mile acts and there will be pieces of DNA from the mile acts in the model three in the model wife sure which will be their smaller SUV cell arm I don't and I think it was a mistake I just think that it was probably didn't go how they wanted and they could have been selling more SUVs and more vehicle sooner but it it may not have actually made the model three company quicker arm because as I dug about the battery class are still the primary eating factor for making that sort of vehicle cost-effective and and I think the team is working on mile acts are necessarily the same people who could have advanced the battery technology years faster cell arm you a having driven the mile acts I preferred over the mile ass arm bothers vehicle utilised for me so I'm excited for the mile three yes indeed our having listened to arm every episode of the Tesla show arm I have to say yes I can I IM I understand that and I I do like the Level 3 will get to adjust the second side is a coupling on the model X arm the thing nothing about Alexis arm you can toe things work are although you can act to get a noncertified towing kit fitted for model S but is not sanctioned by Tesla I'm pretty sure are but still are in any case are and I also remember reading at some point that the X was potentially made one of the reasons or excuses that was leaked was that maybe the X was delayed as well because the young when it was towing heavy arm is totally heavy that's our cooling the battery pack was an issue because the current drain arm that may have slowed down delivery to market as well what I remember reading at some point and if it's true that in any case arm site uses about 30% of us are the same components from the S but society said substantially different lots of new stuff out in an arm the first ex-cop was sold in late 2015 and the entry-level the time is about 80,000 US and the topline model P100 D0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds are which is kinda crazy considering that it's a seven seater SUV aria I don't have any other 70 vehicles can do that in under three seconds arm I think the answer is zero so that's in it that anyone and dumb I think is about money that only made about 60,000 of them are to date have been shipped I should say so it's still early days of the model experts arm it's a gathering steam and I'm having sat both cars have driven either by Saturn and S and X are again I prefer the seating position are in the X up but then I just I know I can't mind slackers went that the S is actually quite low to the ground and we soon and I found I was quite low to the ground and its yeah I know I guess if it was a sedan I was expecting to be sitting up little bit higher but some the X certainly doesn't arm I, like that but at the same time I can have to be thinking of the next because I got four kids of the carry around so you still alright but you're not about the X time to your favourite model three arm so mid-2014 Tesla announced the military and Saudi Arabian shipping I say shipping" a month ago or thereabouts at the time of recording maybe two months now depend on what you define as shipping arm but spicy staff icy standard and it's not technically sedan psycho how would you define residents like amidst mid-size I suppose I am a minute still is still compact sedan so it's it's gonna be under the B&B three series of the civic arm size and it does have a true trunk so it's not a hatchback and even though it's of slopes in the rear later had back it has a distinctive trunk so that we are glass doesn't left all the way up cell arm you minutes it's going straight after the largest part of the premium segment of the well no longer in the lower segment as the contacts SUVs that other sedan side it is the BMW three series the Mercedes C class is armed the Cadillac arm C class CTS's cell arm yet it's it's going straight for a market that many of those manufacturers sell many hundreds of thousands of those vehicles a year arm and it's starting at $35,000 US for 210 miles of EPA range and there is a long-range version is an extra $9000 they will go our 300 and site 220 miles and 310 arm cell it's that the long-range one has a very very strong amount of range arm and even more than many people follow them pretty closely expected and I think this is the this will be the breakout vehicle arm for Tesla and I think it the other molasses wine, the year awards the mile acts as super impressive and gets a lot of attention to both very safe vehicles so they get a lot of positive press when people unfortunately get into accidents but are able to walk away so and in the performance you know when you have videos on YouTube are people doing drag race against pre-much every production car antacids are winning there is there is a lot of positive healer and is vehicles but to be fair and most people cannot afford nor should they try to afford one of those vehicles arm and a lot of people have bothers guys really stretched to get one because of it being a tassel and they wanted to be in by mentally friendly either one of the super high-performance these really want to support the company in some way but are the mile three is definitely going to be and are much more important, I refer the entire industry and for tassel in particular and because it has the potential to sell hundreds of thousands of units per year and that really starts to make a difference where you will have people seeing them all the time in many more places and that people who have normal car payments online in a somewhat nice car as could now have a tassel instead of you only people who are very very wealthy and cells of the biggest Nikon tassel has banned that its chorister rich people and the mile three is certainly night at $20,000 $12,000 car so I am not claiming that there enough for everyone but the difference between an $80,000 car and $35,000 car is massive in terms of demand and it is in a linear demand curve and self exacts that the really big thing here is bringing the DNA of Tesla's Eve guy at this really high-performance, where even in the base mile it's can have a subset seconds you're 60 arm that it can have 200 to 300 miles of range which promotes people will be great are it has access to the supercharging network which we haven't talked about but is basically Tesla's proprietary carding network that they have over 900 locations and thousands of individual plugs around the world you will have five-star safety crash reading are has been tested fully yet but they're still confident in that reading that it will have this very large 15 inch widescreen touchscreen and that will have the same Tesla experience of controlling the car from the touchscreen and even has more it pushes further the mile as an act that has is incredible HVAC system that there is no Vance and the massive amount of glass the really premium interior arm and handling that's incredible because the battery pack is in the slabs he got a very low centre of gravity gravity and so I think it has the potential to be probable I think it has potential to do better than the three series and just as a molasses done so that's my expectation and my excitement from the vehicle as an adult I get a wok to work and very fortunate and unruly driver time but when I do driving always have lusted after having a Tesla but is just too expensive for what I really need in car and really should should be paying for a car and that the mile three is email possible and so I put down my reservation in a number of fan of Ed and arm is just a bend exciting to to white and pay attention to what they're doing cell arm you happy to dig in anyone on particulars for the mile three but are exactly the thing that got me the most excited about us I must have seen them for years are being Californian Bay Area in particular but multifarious of the first one it's possible for me to own and so are particularly excited about you understand me I am also I am excited about the model three my problem is the number of people have to carry it if I had to get a vehicle that was just for me arm then whilst I would prefer unless I'm in the same kind of boaters as you are it's like it's difficult to justify that amount of money arm for a vehicle does for one person but a model three become something that you could use as a daily driver that would be are within reach and some I realise that I'm here here in numb my my part of the world are aware at least a couple years away probably from from getting deliveries arm that can drive on the yard the other side of the rodent and so on are but bottom line is that in terms of performance Medicare has everything it has Tesla's DNA in it for the want a better way of putting it are and the thing I find interesting is that for all the stuff that they did on the model lacks that day they put you in your in your technology and your alcoholism like the HVAC system and that the single display and are a lot else of the day doing in the model three is new are like the entry the cubic yard card to smart phone entry system everything… Too much exhibits like all these things are all-new in the model three and they're all big steps forward and I don't know how much they've held it back or if they haven't but it just shows that the Tesla are nowhere near done in pushing their the vehicles forward with new technologies and an annual approaches to solving the problem so I'm I'm really excited when they get to mass production my biggest concern is what how long is it going to be our before they're able to produce in that sort of volume and I know that that Allen's been very bullish about being able to ship our yard I get through that was a backlog is some 350 400,000's preorders of the amount be around 450,000 for heftier cement and he said he can get through that and what a year and 1/2 18 months or two years here that's the ad that's the goal they won and the year doing 5000 vehicles per week production and next year a 10,000 per week arm which depending on where and here they do that they could theoretically get to the backlog by the end of next year's intense inner eye I really hope that they do drag me wrong and I want them to succeed but that is aggressive very aggressive considering their production rates currently for the S and the X and I realise that there that they've designed to 3 more for manufacturability which is utilising to people or people don't think about this is that there is some there is design for reliability designed maintainability and there is design for manufacture ability and often these are in direct conflict with each other so that the easier something is to manufacture for example the more difficult it might be to maintain so you could do like the recent injection or sunning my dad to keep our make it more weatherproof and more reliable but then you can't maintain outlets like the diesel competing prop objectives and it's interesting arm it will be interesting rather argillaceous state that to see whether not they can actually realise those production improvements in the model three arm I year I watch on with a lot of a lot of anticipation and interest because it is it is truly that the mass market sector are model a vehicle that will will truly change the game for the rest of the industry if it hasn't already even despite the fact that it exists arm but in terms of performance really quickly are the standard battery model zero 65.6 seconds and the long-range model 5.1 seconds and that for a for a car that is within grasp is still very very impressive so arm you four marks a Tesla that that they look at a wonderful job so for me it's just a matter of watching a production ramp and arm as a reservation holder I hope that you are not Waiting very long basically now thanks and the same think a couple things on the production side arm at least data points from Kassel and then to my own interpretation I guess would be that you want hospitalise you know when they went from roadster to model as our they went from one production method of pre-much handbuilt arm where they could do a couple dozen a week to doing couple thousand are per month with molasses and that was a huge step change in production volume and the enabling factor there was that they went from handbuilt to a factory arm and that factory you never put that line together very quickly and also as a first and they're doing my car and cell arm they they want quite sure what they're doing necessarily and that with the mile three what they've done is they've dedicated a very large percentage of the factory to model three so after Volkswagen visited the factory think they may think well this 5,600,000 ft² factory is only producing hundred thousand cars it seems pretty inefficient compared to what BMW Toyota Highlander will do in a similar facility size and think what they sometimes might forget is that Tess is only using a portion of the factory to do the mile as an axe and there is then a very large percentage is just literally been dark arm and hasn't been used and that's really been building the mile three production for final assembly and for the body and Weight Watchers ceremony glue and asked whether all the pieces together after the body arm and Manuel drowned herself that whole section has been brought online and the very first few quarries have been built in a much slower process either by hand or an out of the running for the line but the time to build the Corrie line and and the team have said is is about four times quicker now uses four times less human effort and cell arm in the same square footage as a model as an axe they're able to do 400,000 current year arm and that sort of what the baseline is and the other big thing is that they know they now have this many reservations and think one of the benefits Tesla taking reservations is that you get to understand the future from most products you are having to forecast what to build an online power state our historical trends but not really know if someone's income and your store and buy something when you take reservations you can eliminate some of that risk because you have some sense there is a very large amount of demand and so already year and 1/2 ago they knew they had way more demand than they were expecting and self are that allow them to go back to suppliers and work with better suppliers make sure the suppliers took them seriously because one of the big concerns with any item manufacturing processes that you've got 5 to 10,000 unique parts coming from hundreds and potentially thousand plus suppliers if any of those parts aren't available and you don't have the capability to make them in house you can make the car and so it really is this the slowest most unlucky are or are most incompetent supplier can start production and so you want to work with the best you can and companies like working with other companies when they know they can have a lot of business so that's one big advantage for the mile three over previous cards in terms of their ability to ramp is suppliers of stability and supplier quality yet appears to your point is the factory designed this to be manufactured and cell phone experience a mile as the mile acts which the Milex was very difficult to manufacture arm they've been able to eliminate steps of the process and taking out humans taking a human judgement are Rob by sizing a lot of the work arm and making a production line that is much more robot dance so that it can be done at the position of a rabbi and at the speed of a robot instead of speed and precision of human which nowadays is less so think those sort of factors play and and and also Tesla knows this is critical and it they've really made the mile three simpler arm and cut out features into your point I think it is very impressive that there are so many new features that makes me wonder what can be coming in future generations of it because it clearly cut back his disc explicitly said their features they've held back just so they could focus on the manufacturing process and get engineers working on that and I think there are they certainly augmenting everything they can to make them as quickly as they possibly can we know it least this point that there are 300 400 cell vehicles have now been delivered to employees and other the shooting for around 1500 by the end of September cell arm will know in a couple weeks depending on the episode comes out how they're doing but some eventually I think they will get there and down the important thing is whether whether any year were down two years Yan is a demand still there and ultimately that's the thing that will will matter to tassel on to the customers for me personally weeding action Montague is deftly annoying but some in the in the long article time I think wasn't forget about the first few months and will care more about the quality of the car in how well does the doing of role you think it's gonna be very much like the new the new iPhone I say the new iPhone I mean that's the repeating meme every year the new iPhone you like there's always a queue up on day one and the shortages for the first month or two and then after that you can walk into any store you might like and they'll be just available shelf go grab it are and I think that the model three will be no different but just on a lot longer timescale I think that's our that the preorders are a really good indication that Tesla have done arm that all of the momentum that has the have has gained between the progression from the roadster to the S to the X arm shows how much people are our partially lasting I suppose are to a point in the okay there is definitely an element of loss and because I'm in to put thousand dollars down or $1500 down opinion what some we live arm to get a reservation for three doing that France arm and say hit has a hole in the my money for me are that takes arm a certain amount of passion and and excitement to want to do that for a vehicle that hadn't even been over in the wind when when you when people what they have not reservations they hadn't even shown seen Nadia is like that that that sort of that's amazing the fact that Tesla have actually been able to do that is quite impressive a note some of dropped off but then again lots more of also signed up in reserve since they vowed they revealed it so anyway what you can only make you think it does make some people frustrated the same way that Apple makes a lot of people frustrated is that just branding apples is branding and well now if you think that that we think but it's trust arm near NII people line up for the new iPhone because they trusted their previous iPhone was great and that what Apple says is gonna be better will be better in a perfect but in general are the next iPhone is better and people care deeply about their iPhone and their smart phone and they love that experience that they are given and so it's trust and what tassel has been able to do and the reason I followed tassel so closely now used to follow Apple a closer arm used to file Apple closely in our file Tesla more closely is Agassi a lot of parallels have people seeing a premium product are previously in the max and the many iPods bringing matter more people and then coming out with a new product in the iPhone and it was just demonstrably better in many many facets in an industry that had sort of been stuck and not really doing much improvement and email you could use a same exact words to describe what tassel's been doing and so when you see something like the model three and it still exudes so much of what people like about tassel and actually brings it even closer to the third of arm idealised version of what a car could be for a lot of people arm I think that's what gets people really excited you know I have test driven the shabby bolt and that's shabby is 230 mile electric vehicle and it is it is good is it is I mean I recommended my parents the bottom-line arm and then I can away from L3 anyone an electric car but it cannot think many people are excited about the bolt and it's that difficult to quantify thing that separates products that people really desire and products people buy because they just need them or it's a very practical decision and they can be frustrating people who don't feel that way about the product but it doesn't mean that many other people feel the same way so I ate I think tassel does have that sort of X factor arm and it's very intriguing to whites because it's from in-line all the way down to the product to the mission of the company to the environmental factor to the eater of crazy performance levels that just so many parts of the story that are really intriguing arm and into the economy. I'm also super fascinated by so there is a lot going on that all blends together to make the car really saying to people and they tend to serve the extreme in all those areas so if you care about environmentalism getting electric car is great if you have a performance because is pretty much the highest performance, you get if you care about autonomy and pushing the boundaries there tassel is pushing the boundaries for you so it's really intriguing to have a company that pushes the buttons were so many people at almost them the peak there is no other item echo that pushes that level so many different things that people care about online product and think that makes a pretty special absolutely agree and you mentioned arm Tesla some mantra mono mission I would we honour court dummy is accelerating the advent of sustainable transportation and arm e-commerce as a quite nicely I think are but they do also do so much more like on the performance as well as on the autonomy so arm and you mention also branding and on branding eyelashes were quickly touched on that arm on the naming which I found to be quite a fascinating little journey from the roadster that started off being unofficially 1.52 x 2.5 which really was an official thing arm to the branding of the S and the X and so the couple ways that they differentiate their models because of the model S but it's not as you know it are so you've got to arm are the de Ra which is dual motor or I suppose S in the absence of that because I think they have a right S honour on the car was like an implied single motor I think I'm not sure rate yet yet it was a smile as 100 7585 yes like the S was silent but anyhow so the deeper dual motor otherwise known as all wheel drive after only a small motor in France and the primary driver in the rear then there was the P for performance models are and they all buy requirement had a large battery pack and the open high specified switchgear internally and then of course the actual number people think obviously the battery pack size measured in kilowatt hours usually rounded up or down to the nearest kind around number and that sort of embedded map became the model the submodel number I suppose you and in this essay had the P100 D is the top-of-the-line and 80 5D for example dual motor 85 kWh arm some of the acts and I suppose the thing the problem I have with that is that's people will think about the obvious what the obvious babies asked but I think the drag coefficient of an S and X is different to curb weight is different hence your overall efficiency is that it is nearly the same stuff got 90 kWh battery are on model S versus a model axon again different ranges so whether or even make sense to mention how big the battery pack is in terms of an actual number I don't really think it in the long-term way makes much sense and I think looking at the model three that about standard and the long-range version are I think is a far better way of going down the road makes me think a lot about what the S next numbering making a lot about specs and numbers game the PC makers used to do back in the 90s and yet the early noughts arm and it looks to me at least like tassel is getting away from that I think the other certainly I think you rated reading the tea leaves the same way I am that's the model three does not have a bad on the rear of the limb and say model three on the back of the vehicle just as tussah arm sell similar to the way that Apple is continually removed back branding and badging from their products Tesla is removing bending and branding and badging arm Andy Addy the kilowatt hours do not make sense to people and I think most people know what a kilowatt hour is that I know that 70 means any means arm and it to your point as more and more electric vehicles come out arm it is since the comparable metric arm due to the efficiency of of the vehicle and sell it is not a useful feature for consumers is that of two technical office back and I think you'll see Tesla move the model as an Axa short to regular and long-range as well I think similar to Apple having three Barrick about the storage capacity is analogous to and at some point you decide of anybody want to regularly monitor the extra policy bigger one and arm yet I think that's sort of weather going on they also have the ludicrous mode which is a little underline on the badge so got it a lot going on in sell to your point earlier you'll if you're in a three you will know the difference between $35,000 monetary or the hundred hours at $80,000 fully spat out my three and from what I've seen people by the hundred thousand $80,000 version a little frustrated that they were shell after they both really rich one you let the people everyone else who buys a majority others are really happy about that because then if you hear of the model 300 60 and 5.1 seconds be that the 5.6 second one no one knows so they think you got a fat quicker car arm and I think you know it be one unrealistic tonight describe that a lot of people buy cars as an avatar for themselves and to serve it says something about me if I buy a Subaru versus Hummer and or a Tesla radio and it's not just about the functional well it gets me to my work in the same time so it is irrelevant if that were the case people bit by the cheapest and most reliable vehicle possible that the smallest for their needs but people clearly don't do that and I think that is evidence proves that clearly people care about what the car says about them what they believe it has about them and are inner that's something that Tesla has keyed in iron and is more and more people want a more attack focused good for the environment vehicle are Tesla is ready to accept them as customer and that there aren't too many other really great options and I think that's the frustrating thing for me was just there are still puzzling is your very early point in the conversation why would you be charging from map updates you don't you understand that people are using their smart phones tonight using your bad maps what are you doing why are you putting buys any engineering team doing any work on that with this all mattered so so will have if they get that wrong if they think people actually can do that with you so cynical that they were charged $2500 from map upgrade because some people do it all if those are the same people making decisions how could you imagine a gonna make a decision about all these other things need to change about the business and other cars and you now I never was in the car is but are because they do seem to be the same they were basically all the same slightly different badges they compete on the same features are all exactly the same size wheat dimension in its incredible if you look at the mid-size car there within an inch or two of themselves in every dimension so the clearly carping each other there is no doubt arm and yet the one company that seems to be pushing the boundaries that they should be carping from the night and clearly they will in the future but the move at such large slow timeframes of 10 x 10 years that can be a long time and hassle as in standing still and adding that in our if you look back at iGoogle like there is to be Ollie's terrible search engines are all the same melodies big portals and then Google came along and had this fresh approach you be like well clearly Yahoo and Exide and Ask Jeeves are and can't be Google because they figured it out but they didn't because there were durable competitive advantages are Google built and they want staffing they were getting worse they were getting better and I think it leaves in my view and that is the more likely scenario here tussah is that they actually get to build on the lead versus getting absorbed because the advantages of the traditional car companies have our night the same advantages needed that is what Tesla cares about arm so it doesn't configure our production and that's the biggest question even in my mind here but this clearly evidence proves that there are many car companies in the world are companies like another car is that there are people in the world to know how to do it yes arm that they may want to work with Tassimo network with the current car company and if they can attract those people and do this then and the other things that they have huge advantages in the other car companies don't sell not not that I can aim and the care of tassel wins but it ain't just find it so interesting how many people are betting that houses can fail that the failure case of tassel seems pretty rough now to to imagine that there can fairly go bankrupt at this point Mark arm another not going to take it they could possibly be less important but there are plenty of car companies about their size still continue to exist so that seems like an unlikely scenario complete failure as a matter of how big is the magnitude of impact but again you pack your bag Apple are in 2001 2002 and I think many people would have predicted they would be the largest market Company in the world are 15 years later six years later and yet it still philosophically the same company you are not the mid-90s official undeniably active and yelling at them but that we back then there is certainly a lot more turmoil happening while she wanted to 3 CEOs and basically going bankrupt and cutting a product line down to 4 products as it is a pretty big shock to the system yet but in 2001 there were they were doing really well but people like well just at school but it's a music player that night you a big deal yet the iPod union and the thing is with the with the Mac is that the the iMac that pointed sort of come out and it was arm yellow it was sure was pretty and a great carry handle but I mean really seriously is knocking as I can change the world but the funny thing is people didn't see the iPhone coming and and when it did it just changed everything Changed Apple's entire fortune so arm just took a dim change in title just buys it didn't didn't see it it pushed up into a much higher gear than anyone expected was possible and now look at them and I feel like Tesla's has that same potential in the car market so what's a good school exciting is to see how this unfolds in the next five years and that what all the other manufacturers try to madly scramble interoperable about the minute but I'd like to guess our is what is keeping key movement which will talk about some of the vehicles and the branding but one of the biggest parts for me is the battery technology arm in all these cars because electric cars actually were invented long time ago prior to internal combustion engine vehicles muscled under the realise this but the truth was that the batteries were never the powder white was never right and Davo because the lead acid batteries that been around since the 1800s they are just they just didn't work those to be too heavy and CO2 dangerous arm especially the wet wet cells way back so the lithium ion is that the using of lithium as the using arm it so some people said we are the thinking catch fire and that that they can be dangerous and I remember that that during our 2013 abnormal molasses on the radio series of accidents and the weather is puncturing from underneath the vehicle are very specific set of circumstances but articles are puncture the battery pack and and has the basic introduced armour plating underneath those battery models to protect them from a pinhole intrusion from objects like the web service and is what they've what has done the battery packs themselves exactly really fascinate not as the armour plating the whole structure of them have a cool them a really really is fascinating and that the other part of that is that I find interesting is that the ER the 18 650 cells in the model SI more commonly referred to as the 168 days arm there pretty common laptop batteries and and oddly enough the cigarettes are bigger than double ace and a 3.7 vault cells as opposed one half of cells but this still pretty common is marred you lithium ion battery and I think that as are that the acknowledgement of the importance of these batteries comes down to the construction the gig factory survey new Tesla knew that part of their their entire business was was found on the ability to get low cost high production rate batteries and that without that they couldn't possibly succeed arm the other one is charging a total ban expert are the batteries that they have themselves I still find it fascinating to be using a standard form factor cell but I think that they are working on other different sized arm different configurations batteries and future not sure of the model three another molasses using the 1860s year that the model trees using a new cell size of 2170 so it's both wider and holler so has less casing are percentagewise so it is more dense arm as I just has more volume relative to the case arm and arm yet I think what one of one of the big inside they had was that the production of commodity lithium ion cells from batteries inside of consumer electronics was putting down the price and increasing production and so when you can piggyback off of someone else's arm expansion then you don't have to pay the price of the development and so there already all the cells being made in people like Panasonic and Samsung were building more and more the cells for people like Apple and Dell and all his other consumer electronics that arm while they weren't necessarily perfect are for electric vehicles that the distinguishing factor of the praise going down between five and 7% a year arm through the same energy capacity was enough to our way to the slightly ungainly nature of chaining together 7000 of these things into a car and I think that's the shows a distant distinct difference between them and the traditional model makers who tend to use a different size Sally can use a prismatic or a pouch cell which they only have a couple hundred of them in a vehicle and it might be technically safer because it's slightly less likely to have them are runaway in its less complex soul from up from our email what the car companies care about making it slightly easier and simpler those cells are better but the much more expensive as a doesn't want this other router saying well the thing we need to eventually get to our goal of really mass-market car is cheaper batteries willing to pay the engineering and risk factor now of designing a battery pack that can accompany these thousands and thousands of cells and call them well and protect them arm and a think that's in an outer stage where they can be manufacturing those with their partner Panasonic and will be putting so many that they can even the big inside from making around was like well it were acting to produce half-million to a million of his car is ready to be the largest consumer of batteries in the world we want when I can appeal to sort of swim air in the side of the in the drag of all his other major electronics companies working to be the biggest one and with the biggest consumer we should also be the biggest producer because these other companies may not meet our demand and so they decided to build their own factory and invite some of their best partners like Panasonic and others to build cells and then packs in one location to cut down on the logistics arm and to optimise for what the cards need versus what the inner consumer electronics usage needs and so they've both designed our slightly different chemistry that they continue to refine they've got a PhD is and the thing with professors all around the world to work with them to continue to enhance and improve the trade-offs between energy density the specific energy and the long-term durability to the side of the triangle for a batteries arm and then also optimising the physical size so that they can pack as much useful material into that flat underneath the vehicle and obviously with fewer cells they have less surface area to cool they've also had to invent new cooling pack designs but was interesting is in the most recent R 100 D and 100 packs a day using in the molasses and exes they are so bright for its in the technology the revenues from all three are to validate it at a slightly lower scale of mile as snacks and that's been going well and so now that sort of the general cooling infrastructure that any use for the mile three cell it in our not relying on third-party supplier like LG can which is what GM has done with the bolt are gives them the ability to actually push on this and because it's the single biggest reason you can have a $20,000 a $10,000 electric card has 300 miles of range it's not the motor is another seats as other sheet metal covers the figure that out with other vehicles it's the battery pack yes and sell that is the number one critical path to getting these car is to be in everyone's driveway and Tesla is trying to do this and they built this gig factory in Sparks Nevada can be the biggest building ever gonna hyperbole that has the love you but it's not just for hyperbole it's because there are going to need an immense immense amount of capacity for batteries and are moving all that mass from our inner overseas is is not smart arm especially if you need putting batteries on a boat and expose to see what is not a good idea arm so so producing them in a very dry place in the batter which is great arm and they can be building more these gig factories that eventually also can be the car factory so they can have raw materials come in one end and enquires, the other and so they said and announced 234 new gig factories and by the end of the year and arm J8 are nothing to get enough attention for this and you see folks like Gadi Larin and others now starting to announce the gonna be building around battery factories in partnership with some of his major manufacturers because you cant get enough of the cells of UN on the open market and set out on a builder hundred thousand car as you may not be all to get in a batteries at class you're comfortable with arm in the open market because they're all being used and you can just build capacity instantly as Tesla's been working under gig factories in 2014 you can't sell it it's a it's a long-term planning and I think one of the things that you must is pretty good at is this idea of really thinking through what it what are the fundamental things need to happen for this goal to be achieved and trying to make sure that he is in control of those major attributes and making through having a batteries if you want to produce a million cars a year is pretty critical and he's the kind of person that says well I guess we need to build the biggest battery factor ever so go to Alistair exactly I think it's wonderful the fact that they thought it through to that level understood their dependencies and they did just that in hedge their bets just like Alan did with some space extender and has low in terms of investment he went all in they've gone all of the gig factory there is nothing small about gig factory in every sense of the word and dump it is truly impressive and and I am I'm excited to hear about the 23 and four are gig factories as they progress forward on different continents and and try and ramp that the production up arm in terms of the that the battery packs themselves though I found interesting if you look at all the different manufacturers are that honoured is not a huge number of this point in terms of the electric vehicles but arm that the leaf that I am I have driven for example belief are does not have a cooling system it so separately it's it's our naturally called it's a ands the early models are leaf have known battery degradation problems and see how you lose X number of bars of capacity and you are entitled to a replacement but the newer so-called lizard style of battery has improved our cooling but it's still not the same kind of unit and in the end it has I figured this out early on it might take the risk and so they've done its armed using a glycol refrigerant system and a taxi quite commonplace in high-voltage are variable speed drives that I deal with generally and now it's it's not up this no new thing is not a neck necessarily technologically advanced thing but it's something that's been sort of like you are shrunken little bit down into arm a compact battery module which is kind of interesting and instant application of it and arm and dazzles works quite well at one of the things that other people don't realise is that batteries get hot when you when you charge them when you discharge them so when you use consumer power when you're charging them are when you're charging them the power going through because of the vehicles IR which means you got resistance to all the conductors are ultimately resistance is nonzero because ultimate superconductors so in the end are when you pass that character or conduct regarding a voltage drop because that resistance and that extra energy will be lost arm manifest as heat and heat bad because you get thermal expansion of metals that creates micro deformities you can get fishes or leaks within the cells if you don't manage it and he is and you don't extract heat out then you know you going to have problems and ultimately you can get's arguments before thermal runaway and its it's not a good situation so keeping as batteries crawl under high load in either direction that either discharge or charging either way our is critical to get it right and I think has the system is so has been very well engineered and seems to be quite reliable so are endlessly mild in terms of the battery technology is still the best bet in terms of energy density for weights arm that is becoming mass produced as other ones that are promising that they're not the point we can mass-produce them so that this still the winner for now I think and the way the tassels approaching the gig factories deftly the right approach and the one these days arm in a few trips I want to go through arm idea and if so way back all the battery problems episode two of the show and I want to start looking at Sark is that the game is changing and dark and Tesla's been driving a lot of it which is which is great to see because the batteries are also now being multi-beyond just laptop cells that then avenues for mass storage after grid storage and dumb things like the Powerball fervour homes and are the massive power packs that there they're installing around different parts of the world is to basically because of the surgeon renewables hour and of course my the solar solar renewals don't work and when the sun goes down seen installed energy and it's quick and easy to deploy than digging a dam for Hydro storage which has been the traditional way of doing it and dumb so batteries and battery technologies arm down they are the biggest game changer and the funny thing is that they were driven by vehicle arm and you can have this enormous impact in ripples are in how we deal with energy in the world are in coming decades and are and that's pretty amazing I think you mean I think that you on recognises that if you want a fully sustainable energy our solution he now believes very strongly that can be mostly solo but even if it solar wind are any combination of renewables are very few of those run all the time and so you generators energy and then if you have no fossil fuel you cant run with no energy at some point the day it's impossible for the world to work that way swinging the buffet somewhere that is going to battery and so you need both renewable generation which is solar solar city now so it is part of Tesla you need battery storage to buffer in times when the sun isn't shining so that's the power packs and power was a dimension and then we need to move around and so you can use electric energy to do that as well and his general proposition is that every form of transportation except rockets will be electric powered and it in our we can have electric heat we can have electric refrigerator as we can have large industrial our products are K recently realises well the cruiseship use electric motors after actually turning the year that wrote the rubber the rotors you down but these diesel to generate electricity yes and so it's just you know it were not even huge cruiseship director using electric motors and so it were not actually that far from being able to do this once the batteries are density and cost comes down to sell anything when you think I smell I would think people sometimes regattas we we benefited from such a huge advantage on our microprocessor improvements but we are mistaken for granted but hard work is being done at every single day to medical advances possible and batteries hadn't been getting as much love until about Edie's there were 2025 years behind where microprocessors are and we had fewer people working on them because batteries were getting as much attention as computing was and now as we have more and more engineers working on batteries think will potentially be held to see the tapered advances we want and maybe faster than virus is present year but it's still a great improvement ON engines and on improving fibre 6% gasoline is marketing fibre 6% cleaner every year so you now it it you end up in a good spices how quickly is the question that set and depending upon which arm you gasoline station to go to go tell you that day just to 2 tanks pulls of their special blend will clean out your engine arm magically or something and I BICC claims like that and I just I saw it roll my eyes and I wonder one point the future we can have some superchargers were arm done by comment that says that if you charge using our electrons than your batteries will last longer arm that will see what the marketing spin doesn't guess the next 1015 years but I arm yet so there was something specific though about these batteries in the hot the top performance model that I really wanted to just mention and that is that in canal and you talked about on an episode of the Tesla show and that sort of peaked my interest a little bit of digging into this because I naturally come across in canal before Butts arm because some ontological engineering one of the things we deal with arm as SARS in the current stream working in is so are some turbines and is it it's interesting that Saddam Tesla uses in canal as part of a our main battery pack power contactor in the performance models arm of their vehicles and is studying into this and that the contact is in question for example these ones do not load break contact is by design so they don't actually do any are quenching anything like that like a circuit breaker would arm but the canals were susceptible to scouring arm and caramelising whatever it's worth but it's more the fact that it lets them push our think that limit was some the 1300 amp limit on the cross-sectional area of the contact up to about 1560 200 A without deforming the conductor importantly arm personally I still would be pushing 1500 A for that long because is still very small cross-sectional area of the concurrent even within canal boats and the thing it's interesting that in canal is that the mill is actually more commonly used in aviation exhaust nozzles they also use it in rockets arm for similar reasons but steam turbines use it as well is gas compressors it's been around as in terms of materials actually been arrested in the 1940s arm since the early jet days and it's really painful to work with it's not Sark it's generally considered a last resort metal than anything else but some there was a suggestion that was used because of our on some work with space X and cross pollinating with them but I do not that's more a myth than actual truth that are most material scientists and mechanical engineers not in canal is it's just arm but the bottom line is the partner using I try to dig up the exact part from T connectors by trip trouble tracking down the exact part number so I could mount an exact Alex discussion quite a large range of in canal alloys arm but still as applications ring canal go one I hadn't come across before for that particular metal and very very cool very high and the coolness scale I think Yan and just stepping back be the whole thing within canal was that in the performance models when you put your foot down Excelerator there trying to pull as much amperage out of the battery pack as quickly as possible to pump it into the motor to spin faster arm and they were heading a limit where they were unable to drive much out of the batteries they help because this connector and a contact for the transfer into the rest of the power electronics was was failing and are the matter was not conducting anymore and so we are the knee switch to this in canal are material instead and the year the claim that knew about it and suggested it because of the time it's basic now certainly they had good electrical engineers working on is the poly would have known about it but it that yet that the fact remains that the SPX is using canal in and some other exhaust housings and things like that arm and I think the fact that any people follow Tesla even have heard of the word in canal and because of Tesla is intriguing that this may be one of those examples where the Apple fan boys get upset about the appetite correct nine things like that are super high DPI and trainer Brandon but arm I don't it does it doesn't matter that the point is that people think about this as a performance improvement and some cool space technology they bright and why I think they talk about a light of some of that welding techniques they use are similar from from space X and arm you know I think is definitely cool water to tell your friend that your car has some space age technology and from space X and whether night would have independently been able to be invented at our sole owner any carmaker the fact the tassels able to get that story out arm is is valuable to them and makes their customers feel more connected to what they're doing and it's a call tech detail and arm I think space X as it does a really good job with this as well with other press conferences and things but arm yet I think the other car, his glancing about how you actually get people excited about some of this new technology night some of just the legacy motor technology because many of the people Foley's car companies are gearheads care deeply about how the engines are improved but they're not really spend as much time on their Bluetooth interface know about you write it's it's it's fascinating how arm the details of the metal used in the contactor ends in the car rate how many grams of ML in the car yet horribly a few yet that's it and it suddenly this it's it's it's got the cool factor and its people are fascinated by non-fascinated by the fact that they did great but I love the detail but anyway it is is very course is a very high and the coolness scale and arm and it's all in the name of speed and this is the other thing that you know some things I thought about about why Tesla has this last wordiness and I think a lot of this comes back to car come is the longest time from the days of the EV one I think maybe maybe before that was pushing this idea that TVs were slow day they just our and all your hours are real cars that allow the engine and you know lots of brake horsepower in Bromborough unless the rubbish is like and that was the definition of of an electric car was it's never going to compete with that and in one base that has set out to prove that was not correct and arm most electrical engineers sort of knew already that electric power was far superior to combustion engines for a whole bunch of reasons including talk as well as power to weight ratio the issue was the portability of the powers we talked about the batteries arm and will get charging a minute that arm that the problem of passing out excitement the election was in every hundred years and that the battery problem is the problem and came around problem with your mind works so that's talked about that will move on arm but the thing is that the power to weight ratio is far superior than a gasoline engine and people so well used to get better results out of our IndyCar or Formula One but then you know technically that's true but at the same time To rebuild the engine at the end of every race for Formula One car select, cheating arm unless you rewind your electromotive at the end of every drag which you don't have to do with molasses so you know is not really that's not really the point sanely ends they want to build a car was very very fast and push that forward and they just they they just kept taking the next bite in the next lowest rate hanging fruits of the first low hanging fruit was dual drive so going from we will try to dual so will drive arm to improve their acceleration in the next one was larger battery pack so the bigger the battery pack the more current you can draw and still have an acceptable range aunt and obviously then the next thing broke was we just talked about the contactor so they upgrade the contactor and they just keep on clawing and inquiring inquiring and it's reaching a point of insane insane mode and then there was ludicrous mode and are I love the fact that ludicrous motives are is a is a reference to space balls arm reasonably sure it is yet a preacher it is because his tears maximum plan will become that's a good only really those are made I love that our dear anyway so arm because in mid-2016 or less actually was was crowned the quickest production car in the world I guess that's kind debatable on the proviso that the lower Ferrari the Ferrari the Ferrari and in the night 918 spiderweb site limited production runs but note production not production glimmer production I guess but what's not currently in production you currently in production sure but I mean debate but there is no debate at all that is the fastest five seat sedan in the world there are at that point sub 2.5 second zero 60 times but then it was actually in February this year in 2017 the motor trend clocked the P100 D this model year at 2.28 seconds which is just absolutely mind blowing and is no question that that kind of performance is is fantastic advertising so when you say I'm getting a Tesla you associate that with arm behind this high-performance and high acceleration and I think that whether or not that was tassels intention or not to shame the gasoline engine into into oblivion or not it that seems to be the weights headed which is which is fine with me and with money to adjust before we move on is that all the other car companies are making electric cars could do this to true could take this claim in even running a bold relief zero 30 is quick it feels good but Tesla was able to stick it out and it reminds me and of various other than a shell called madman but there about advertising and what one of the times of main character as the train brand a cigarette and not offend cigarettes but the story is still interesting of it as Metellus tells what you do today to make the cigarettes of encompassing interesting and rattling off of things they do in one place is only toast we toasted tobacco and so there is RR cigarettes are toasted and all the car all holistic verticality but linking onto this idea as an important bit and then heading on it and think arm is only trained to use as it had before a fight against this idea that electric either slow and golf cart like arm see swing to the totally opposite of what we can be the quickest note nothing else can be us and are the fact that it sort of comes for free in our quote with electric motors is the matter and even everyone else can do it as is done first and staked out that claim and in branding you want to be the second person to try and do that because it will be seen as cupping sell the asset it's it's intriguing yet it is interesting and I think that it's it's very smart and that the way that they just taken the poles arm sales pitch which was never true but it was limitations of technology at the time are meant that it was our it was gonna be a tough sell for electric cars in terms of performance but that game is that gamers changes it over and has already are basically ended that debate there is no more debate anymore so right so that some little about speed are document charging are so the supercharger network and that was announced in 2012 was a pretty recent arm yell a couple months after the molasses shipping jealous right yet it was anorexic stations to start with but I'm I checked at the time of recording and I city you think is about 900 arm I think it is about 900 arm with around about 6000 individual charges in total less charging points so that about 6 1/2 charges per charging station or thereabouts and the thing that annoys me is as alleged engineers when I say supercharger on is the marketing buzzword write what they really been is a DC fast charger and you that's cool but DC fast charges and sound cool so anyway that's find that use the BR tassels proprietary connector and the DC charges up to 4 and 80 V DC maximum is about hundred 20 kW per vehicle but some obviously based on the model S which was originally designed for extra guest should reach about an 80% charge in about 40 minutes or so from flat I think but realistically you don't want or charge a flat while you really hope you don't Hansen so you get about 80% about 30 minutes National day, your market as this is the this is what you can expect and after that it slows right down because of the year because of the laws of physics and all that arm to get 200% and are about another 30 to 90 minutes I guess it depends on the size the battery pack and how flat you were but in any case arm so the charges themselves arm had to be distributed well across arm the country are and the world in order to make the car original proposition because if you are going to trickle charge them are you could do at home are dipping apart if you have a high-powered wall connector or or not I would chat would depend on how well you can actually charge overnight when I would take several days to charger based on how much current you get out of your power outlet and arm you hundred kilowatt hundred kilowatt hour battery pack is huge and charging Alan trickles gonna take days if you plug into a standard hundred and 10 V outlet arm which you you could do you can do but geez in IQ can be waiting whilst letting be fully charged so the idea of the supercharger was to fill the gap for people going between cities that there be enough arrange for you to charge overnight at home with a high-powered wall connector arm and is that would satisfy your requirements and is and that's fine but the supercharger network was an enormous investment continues to be an enormous investment and they have to keep rolling it out because unlike arm the rest of the market we saw what happens with the arm with gasoline are so way back in the day when gasoline was rare you wouldn't venture out arm from your home city your vehicles would stay where they were and some people would do it because I thought jerry cans full of gasoline and they go between our cities and so on but getting stranded running out of gas was arm a common thing solid build like doing it in a course now in a state happened in highways and so on and they built gasoline stations everywhere along them so that you are always a place to stop enabling range anxiety so that the thing with the electric vehicles is that you would hope that there'd be similar infrastructure but there is no incentive to build it and so you're not built it so Tesla had to build their own to make sure that you know that they would have that their vehicles would be able to be serviced and I think that it's been an absolutely critical part of their strategy the thing that I find arm ITS frustrating understand a business point of view why is that it's on open standards they can't drive a leaf up our or a arm any other non-Tesla to attend supercharger plug and charge it arm you can however go the other way round if you've got some like a Child Moe or a CSCS charging station are you can get an adapter on a China my thinking get an adaptive Tesla to CSCS and you can plug in and charge it has loads at a non-Tesla DC fast charger but just not the other way around and I understand what I did it because it's like the tassel cycle all this money into it doing all the supercharger network and destination charges and such arm that I want people just plugging and using it they want to be for the benefit of Tesla runners and if you walk up if you rolled up to attend supercharger station was for this and leaves you might just be a bit annoyed I guess as it has one year for sure and I think that the employer-employee mention was that when the gasoline stations were built out it wasn't the car companies adopt them it was individual) are is who and that the oil companies who decided we want abilities and because the only option was to use gasoline and diesel are you knew that everyone who is gonna come your way in a vehicle was gonna need your product and right now the tiny tiny percentage of people who have electric hirers and are not a large enough market & growing currently at a pace fast enough for many entrepreneurs to say I want to build electrical charging place and the other challenges that because the speed of charging is somewhat slower than filling up a tank of gasoline your throughput vehicles per station is quite low so you land utilisation is not nearly as good as a gas station currently arm and so you know if you are pull and also the other huge thing is that most people charge up at home so it's not as if the need you every single week arm is very possible on tonight you supercharger is at all unless you're travelling want to place a year maybe until the utilisation of supercharger as while currently is deftly consternation for a lot of tassel owners who find their own enough and it's certainly much better than if you could only charge superstition supercharger is arm which is the case gasoline station sell the economics of it of public charging think is pretty rough arm especially when you're competing with electric rates that are already have to 1/3 the price of gasoline ESL you when people go and I see some targeting public translations and it's twice what my home utility radios I am frustrated but I shouldn't be because they need to make a profit then I can charge the same rate as my home electricity has all the advantages of scale and I'm paying for the real estate so I think public charging is settling in to be a challenge in yet tassel doesn't want to give all the other car companies are the advantage of having not done anything yet because majority the car companies are not doing charging that the very few who are usually putting them at the dealership out through forcing the dealers to add some charging because of selling some electric hirers and you felt a courage point others who are building billing things but I agree I think the supercharger is huge and for me it's the only reason I can get a tassel because every once in a while I do go down to Los Angeles which is about and find it our drive and I want to be older take my Tessa and I could get locally for a bolter around town driving and then rent a car but that's too big of a change in behaviour to seem reasonable especially if you're buying a new vehicle elected imagining you can have to rent a car and so I deftly believe that their idea that well you can go anywhere even though people realistically do it fractional percentage of the useful life of the vehicle is enough to get people not to buy a car and for some reason the large car companies are not willing to make the investment in that the infrastructure and I think that what your accuracy is more what you're saying is they will band together for this more common open standard and because none of them want to invest the amount you need to do the entire world but they're willing to contribute to to it in a smaller amount and in it will of course happen over time tassel is just trying to accelerate it for themselves because they want people to be able to this rate now and honestly it's pretty impressive arm just in Bozeman Montana which is pretty far out there and there was due supercharger is there no one there but they were there ready for people coming to Bozeman cell adding the supercharger is a great arm and and really really important and they started out as free for all the people who are using them so even further down the path of just use it and it's built into the price with a mile three in our future molasses and acts as your pest Malfi are per kilowatt hour per time depending on your municipality and but it should still be about how the price of other gasoline at current prices sell arm Yan and benefactors DC fast charging is grey and they can continue to keep pushing up dilemmas a thing now is up to hundred 45 even though the car is on board bypass can even take that sell the keep pushing it as the batteries can keep accepting higher and higher RC rate sell arm at some point the 10 minute charge would be the ideal and and you really have no complaint against are using using this charging rate now 30 to 40 minutes can still be a meaningful addition if you doing a long road trip but if you just doing a dead rabbit poly not a bad yet exactly and I think that's arm in Australia for example the superchargers of dismay at the Brisbane mica said some months ago they dealership here they colocated the supercharger is there so arm you can now supercharge basically from Brisbane all the way around down through Sydney to Melbourne and then across to Adelaide and yet is more opening all the time you can't quite drive around Australia yes arm and I am pretty sure you can states more or less and your more or less arm butts not not here yet but it's that it's not far off it's coming right cool so arm couple topics and the more wrapup arm rule quickly arm alright so I'm honestly quickly talk about patterns rule quickly because this is a knowledgeable on autopilot so the patterns that estimate a big announcement in the 2014 honour put this the technician I'd rather just reading it verbatim but basically arm are in mid-2014 Alan Moss penned the letter and said you know there was a wall test patterns in the lobby and with Navigon in the spirit of open sourcing you know when our going to arm basically anyone can use them just ask basically and when I can litigate which is a very nice thing to say and what I heard that I wasn't when I read that I sort of thought to myself or what did was open sourcing pans actually mean arm but in any case there is a link in a show that shows you will have a whole list of all the hundreds of these of these patterns are some of them are more useful than others and most and I really despise I can tell basin when I looked at someone's open with your random that it really represent much of a direct engineering competitive advantage and other things are like things like the way our car seat having user configurable screen interface why break detection in redundant communications look paths which I found interesting because like everyone does that either directly or indirectly so found that want to be the odd but then like most patterns that's our book like a panther that in before you get will keep it and so on the early part of our our run our leveraging future sum if we if we feel the need to exercise it but some yellow ones are more interesting though with things like varying flux verses talk for maximum efficiency which is the ultimate magnetic flux control for induction motors which was actually really fascinating and is not about arm flux control motor management sounded pretty interesting and indicative up and specifically but you I would say that interesting considering my Satanist investors considering my background that I saw that was interesting because arm tassel start out going down the same road with patterns as a lot of companies and they said you know what this doesn't make sense and was gonna target so have a read of that arm if you're interested and some yeah I'd just not sure of visiting us to say really in the pans I just want to make sure that our I mention the fact that I think that was very impressive the tassel did that I don't how much of an advantage it is all one way or the other but it certainly is it is a nice gesture and I know that other companies are taking advantage of that I don't know to what extent though you think that it's there and it's useful as well for the team members working at the company to know that the work they do no matter what happens at us will be available for others in the future of your regardless of whether other thing I do know many other manufacturers that have access. Using this patterns and I think part part of that is because two point it's not really possible to make them open source is just an agreement and at any time Tessa could change the terms of that agreement and therefore be litigated so much are many legal teams would allow the company especially major company to users pans safely but I'm not a lawyer but I do think sort of philosophically embittered standards say we do legitimately want to accelerate this transition and inventions we make we are willing to work with people to use but are we haven't seen people use a supercharger proprietary connector and they still apply for design patterns for the design of the car is in the wheels they, people cupping those so it is arm is not complete it is not a fully open source sort of mentality arm but I do agree it's a it is far better than keeping them totally private especially for the purposes of some of these more obvious patterns that are ridiculous but they were granted and every company that apply to patterns get some of those and it's sort of strange and slightly weird to users of the weapon yet exactly and a Tesla I think the message has always sort of sending out is that when I can be a pattern control and we we want rate we we we wanted this industry to move forward and we don't hold back and I think that that's admirable arm I don't expect the dollar flip on that at least one of the current management arm butts are you still alright arm quite possibly the most exciting topic then about Tesla's is autopilot so actually got all about and arm just a little bit of the background first because I know you got a lot lot more into this than I have but of suitable folder bit more tangentially so arm the basics of it was the early molasses user chipset from a company called Mobil I called the IQ three and eight they tended to push the limits of what it can do and there was an incident in Florida that the data where someone arm died in accidents arm and internally tells though I think at that point were already push and develop their own system but then decide to make a break from Mobil I and went with their own Tesla vision system in October 2016 arm they fitted that using an Nvidia drive PX to computer on board and is only I only recently their software updates allow this that the television or second-generation of autopilot to match the features of first generation autopilot I think it might be still some discrepancies there but since then Intel acquired mobiliser 15 billion preshow is right 15 billion year that's a lot of money so Intel obviously saw the value in what mobiliser provided so far and clearly must believe that autopilot functionality be the key differentiator for automobile manufacturers in the future and the funny thing is about copies goes in 2015 and an episode of pragmatic and I said that the next big shift in automotive technology would be self driving I got a lot of people message me afterwards quite unkindly arm in disbelief but since then a lot happened and I still think that that is the case and I think Alan thinks that the case as well are not to be zero and is arm I think ultimately yes so habitable about what I or Apollo on jam yammering on about some of the tech behind it but some want to how'd you describe autopilot functionality as it stands today you would see that idle pilot is a convenience feature and that makes driving on the highway a lot more comfortable and less stressful and it does that through two major features one is a adaptive cruise control so it controls are your longitudinal arm speed so when you're approaching a chiral slowdown if you've that wide open road will keep your cruise control so traditional cruise control you to set a speed and it doesn't have any awareness of what is happening is all run into a car traffic where cruise control will use an intoxicated radar as well support facing camera to detector there is a vehicle in front of you and they keep an appropriate amount distance so that controls your speed and all the way down to stop and go traffic which is really nice arm to move along in traffic without having to manually mobility accelerator and brake and then the more advanced portion because many cars now have traffic work with control to varying degrees of equality and our capabilities but tassels works pretty much from a dead stop on the way out to the 90 miles an hour and then they have lateral control through arm a lengthy persist feature and many cars do now have 11 different things and this is the problem that many corridor claim they have lanky brief centre of autopilot style stallion when they see lanky deeming we just keep you from exiting a lane that doesn't speak to anything about the quality of writing inside of a lane and so many guys are well let you drift to the edge and then sometimes rebelled with Alene another adviser come in Tesla does a really good job in most cases is keeping you dead in the centre of the lane arm even if the lane markings are slightly weak arm or missing for infrastructures but it is sort of this but those two things combined are pretty powerful that when you get on highway new double click the left star can engage idle pilot in you basically can rest your hands on the wheel and I really do anything and it will cruise and having used it for a couple hundred miles combined now are in different drives are done with Tesla's it is at first quite strange it feels like a ghost is driving arm and then pretty quickly get very comfortable with it and it does remove all other menial work that you're doing when you're driving on highway and frees you up to do much more a higher level take ourselves observing your blinds parts looking around planning when you need to move and other lands now autopilot as well later change lanes arm dramatically as you indicate to change lanes and it will it will move you to the next lane if it's clear active Jack but idle pilot a sense a day's end and assessed arm every time you engage it tells you need to be in full attention and paying attention and you are in control the vehicle and think many people are under the wrong impression that autopilot is self driving I'll pilot is a assist feature in a very limited demeanour of highway driving some people do use answer for streets it's really not designed for that arm but it is the base functionality that eventually will be used to get Tesla to their ultimate goal of complete self driving we can fall asleep and the coroner can take you anywhere you want a girl but the time and the amount of engineering to get from where we are today to that is where people will have massive debates and fates arm and there is billions of dollars being invested in different companies to get us there faster but I'll pilot today can cover a large amount of most people's driving if you have to use a highways and and be very nice arm tassels unpublished the best job out of all the manufacturers of branding this set of functionality into a product called autopilot that is integrated and has the controls and your point and they were working with a provider and immobilising arm which probably was more uncomfortable to them because it had somewhat more software that that model I was doing and they were unable to push as much as they wanted arm variable to get firmware from their inner hardware are prevented by for their radar in ultrasonics they confuse at themselves and writer and control software but that the cameras are really where the team believe that our you have to solve the vision problem you have to build perceive your surroundings arm and that they believe vision cameras are the way to do that arm versus other approaches like lidar arm and thermal cameras and things like that so they've tried to go head-to-head deep into that and the first autopilot car is in the Mollison acts were one camera facing board and a forward facing radar and any ultrasonics for parking and such and then in October as you mentioned they made a very big shift to an entire new suite which had each cameras are much better radar better GPU better sorry arm better GPS better GP was well armed better I am you for initial motion unit measuring arm and then also better ultrasonics arm and so now they believe they will be able to achieve what is considered level IV and level V and so is only seven levels but essentially level IV would mean our under a certain domain like a particular city or particular highway a particular space in a particular weather and time the car will do everything in you don't have to intervene level V at me and there is no restrictions can do it everywhere level V is the furthest away I see because if you can put any constraints on its usage stating the functional thing to really care about now is level IV under what levels under what sort of constraint can you totally night engage with the vehicle and done Tesla is pushing very hard with the current centre suite to get to that point unfortunately it's taken a while to catch up to where they were with model I am so it's taken about a year to get back to parity and some current honours would argue that there are not at parity with the way that idle pilot wine is called performance and sell when the media announcement of the new hybrid they had all this discussion of the force of driving they did a demo video of the one of their immoral acts as driving an headquarters doing. Driving and which was a river in a choreographed stage demo but it was working at just this 400 miles before the record of the actual tests that they use for the video arm and then the enhance autopilot as idea well now the coral exit the lane change lanes without you have to clicking on the turn signal it will exit the highway for you and all the sort of more enhanced versions of autopilot and honestly none of those have really come to Barry at arm has said they planned to do a cross-country trip at the end of the year or very soon after arm from Los Angeles to New York with no one touching the controls so and he reaffirmed that just the couple months back so will see it had a lot of challenges arm making as much progress as they want publicly but the big challenge for them is obviously that they have this car is in all the major countries of the world and they need to make sure that taxi works in practice because they don't have farm that been on the ability to show a demo in Las Vegas at CES honour" and really in our cells out there selling the real product and I think that's been a tough challenge for them as I would expect the guard 8590% done of many features in eternally but that last 5 to 10% validation of getting it perfect or as close to perfect as possible the level of safety they need is extremely difficult and I expect they will eventually get there arm but I a AR and I'm very excited about it but I a just think that's arm it's unrealistic to expect the next couple months old model threes will be self driving and framing tells you that's gonna be possible I think there wait arm optimistic and ill informed he had informed of the actual challenges here our insanely optimistic impact you even felt like we moan cruiser GM are working very hard they have more sensors there been working on this in a very limited demeanour just a few cities and it still not quite ready for passengers tells me that are tassels long ago now Hunter said tacit adding highways agree please I think making highway driving completely automatic we can really just taking another wheel will be incredible that will feel like a self driving car when you run highway and getting to and from the highway for many people is not the annoying part of the drive arm but the long haul boring highway stop and go traffic is not exciting driving and arms I think tassels approach of piecemeal privatising particular parts of the driving aspect arm is important and sorry one of the pieces of gut so that the highway anything of highways one and a spectrum you've got parking at the other end of spectrum rate and they have some functionality around summoning your car from a parking spire parking itself without you inside of it arm sort of the local remote-control corals are Park itself come back out and eventually will come find you like the Batmobile would antithetical be really fine year and so the important challenge will be connecting highway driving witches and most experts would agree as is the easiest of driving tasks arm that car has perform because there's so many more constraints on the type of arm movement and the tape of arm pedestrians and others is really ideal of those on on major freeways and major highways and then this parking environment where it is very low speed are you gonna ultrasonics underestimated on hit things arm that connecting those two and the spectrum the city driving will be extremely difficult and arm doing that you are getting a degree in cities or be incredibly difficult to deal but I think they will do anything to making enough investment in it and I think tassels and anyone understand that this is an existential important thing that if you want to be a transportation company in the future you need to own and control your self driving software otherwise you will be a supplier essentially exactly right and what's interesting to me is the different timelines and you mentioned that Alan musk said that the end of this year to be across arm cross-country trip and states from coast-to-coast arm your arm autonomously ends the thing is that I know that the end of 2017 that was the target and recently reaffirmed as she said but compare and contrast that with what Intel said post acquisition of immobilised saying that for level V won't be possible till 2024 arm and is it's it's interesting that yeah I know I have my doubts and I think that's arm Ashley just will quickly wish to touch on the five levels and what they are really quickly that there arm are the NHTSA or National Highway traffic safety ministration states they adopted the set of suggested dumb automotive engineer society SAE levels for automatic driving systems from 00 to 5 arm brought real quick zero is the human driver controls everything so nothing autonomous so I have level 0 good arm one is our specific functional steering operating can be done automatically to was both steering and acceleration deceleration is handled automatically with the human available to take over instantly when required level III is all safety critical functions are handled automatically in humans available to instantly take over when required that's when gets fuzzy and for is as you mentioned arm within a specific desert designed a domain whether that's our village town or a known course and known conditions arm it can autonomously drive itself without human interaction and then level fibres thing as you also set was boot anywhere any time that you like I am hopefully futile to navigate across arm the ocean doesn't try to do that that kind of thing so are the thing is about those levels I guess from a usefulness perspective things get blurry for me between three and four because I think about cutting between autonomously like autonomous acceleration deceleration in my safety critical functions and then but you may need to jump in at any moment and the problem is that human reaction time if you're paying attention is already atrocious if you're not paying attention your reaction times can be even worse is like relying on a human to take action and eyeliner safety critical situation in in the area that I work in the particular control systems engineering if you got safety critical functions you got a dedicated safety controller that handles that in the sub- millisecond performance and everything is failsafe and you don't trust the human gave don't trust him to do a machines job right up matrix so the thing is that's arm that that's why gets burglaries Ms like Level 3 is not level that is very useful if it is useful at all so that's a bit odd so I think when technically people talk about me they actually really mean it started level IV as a minimum but level V is really what we think about a straw Tommy is like take me up to the mountains and then just you cross your legs and survival drums kick back and let the car take you kind of thing arm because the other thing about little fall I find it weird as the definition of a design domain is also fuzzy and I understand when I wrote this dog trying are intentionally being generic but technologically speaking is not terribly useful arm because you there is also the ways you can bend that to say I have level IV" autonomous driving when you eat it all depends on how you define your domain it should that's gonna be driving in so anyway you think that Annie does a critical point I think were I think most people were talking about a tiny parking passage other young is the quote you have from Intel was for level V today would be everything except the nuts the engineers in the sign I find this can do anything greenhouse lead snow anywhere in the world everywhere all the time no human that is more wildly different than saying San Francisco during the day with no rain on the streets we were remapped you and functionally to someone inside the vehicle are someone who took a level V car from someone else and is plotted on Sam disco could perform just as well that level for a car I just described beating a level IV car a few miles down the road to Auckland to unite Redwood City and it wouldn't know what to do now if you live in San Francisco you not care you get to and you just need to get from one place to another level for a car is a time missed you and that's the that were gonna see these companies threading the needle is figuring out what is the minimal amount for level 4 to make a customer to provide value to a customer in a meaningful way and what you're seeing a full cycle email and others as an engineering practice to just chart path entire classes of the level V problem one of its knowing the coral run it's not what is a hailstorm help when I dealing with an outlet of its knowing and fogging help not ideal that now so eventually those ponds are to be sold another comedy predictions because no one is even working on is from is really in RNS am sure some people live in Inverness at night that the 19 educators are just like so extreme that people are not caring about them that I don't think we really gonna get a level V from many many potentially potentially a decade plus you need to decades like where you really could drive anyway think that actually is not going to happen I think will actually happen is the car as well in those cases pullover and night drive and you will see in certain remote parts of the world no autonomy happening for decades now that doesn't mean we won't have self driving cars on Sam disco in the next year it is means that they may be uncertain streets and it is too much traffic they want dispatch Dell dispatches and points on the day and when it's not raining and so it comes down to my mind figure out what are the set of things at the cars can do under certain conditions and Tesla will need choose to make that happen on highways first so criticism from the long-distance driver did some calculation than over 99.9% of the drive would be Highway for the West Coast is to strip the one that sounds impressive to go West because if it is really lots of miles of highway you so if you have a really good highway system in your autonomous package then you'll be majority covered and then you have to figure out how to exit the highway for the superchargers so you need to do a very little bit of mapping potentially for that and hopefully you can be taking the easiest exits arm and then when you do get into the city is your connecting exits are to avoid the deep city and so I think it's very possibly will hit that Gall is showing that demo I don't think that's after all other customers that point but they will achieve a car driving without some interacting with it but that almost Pointless it shows that there is increasing time you highway but it's night it will be level for under the constraints that this describes but monitor be useful to people ran away and so I think is the you can see it coming from bold and people doing in specific cities are unlikely mowing crews and others are doing and eager tassel and the other item makers who are approaching from the complete package and there will be slowly integrating more and more functionality to regular driving and the potential risk is a customer people as you said will atrophy and do not be able to understand our when the car is able to do this and I think the interfaces and the ability to turn on his functionalities will need to be really improved to the point where people can get themselves in a bad situation without really really operating system you and I actually also think that's of the week and need some better granularity in the definition arm and is going to happen in the next few years between level IV and five and it's go maybe is a better stand out that I was not aware of it is quite possible butts in a week when you say yes we can do level for India level V or we deliver for within and then in this subset of environments are and and that needs to be standardised because people just go get too confused and it'll be the dyspnoea people will not be able to understand the differences of different vehicles and in what autopilot versus autonomous that nothing actually I really like the name autopilot you know because it was intelligently chosen because autopilot systems are on our aircraft are examples that is is the best analogy which is only when I read from arm yet it is keep a straight level that it arm and as autopilot does and it's not really autonomous driving was never meant to be so I'm excited for the future potential absolutely butts honestly as it stands today arm it has so far to go and I think my biggest concern really is around how much processing power to actually take to reach that arm how much neural network training it's gonna take arm that the high-level functions arm is really the part where you have rules and rules that follow are is an autonomous driving but you have to be a bend the rules and how you actually code machine arm to handle that human sort of depth of the scenario of like for example on the move across the solid white line in the centre of the highway to make more room for a for a cyclist are because a big drop truck coming straight at my so IFI slow down it's too dangerous for me if I arm if I don't the move across to the away from the cyclist then that presents a risk to the cyclist there is no oncoming traffic the road ahead is clear so it's safe to do that co-defying that is incredibly difficult arm as a whole set of rules and and it doesn't solve the other problems regarding like philosophical issues which is even more problematic arm I know some people pan the movie but I she, like Di robot and arm are when the S4 jumped into the lake after Will Smith's character and another vehicle was sinking and I would thereabout drown the S4 assessed that he have a chat percentage chance of survival than a young girl in adjacent vehicle so he so the S4 rescued him rather than her and the movies were concluded with with Sonny he was a modified S5 arm robots arm to have a different outcome because he was and gave the rub was instructed to save the girl despite the fact that his success were wooden better the other way around it shows a different outcome and that sort of problem that's fascinating and it's can be incredibly difficult to solve and am not entirely sure it can be solved arm because the depth of reasoning are has to be so so vast a knife I hate to say that it is impossible because I suppose anything is possible but with artificial intelligence it is quite possible but are maybe at some point in the future but it just it feels like it is just so far away yet I think that arm I think from speaking the some people work in this field the practically working on building systems are there not really working on the ethical portions yet because the systems are capable enough of even doing that the arm then they required him to take over whether expecting that the mentor take over in points where they reach the threshold of safety that the system is uncomfortable with so those decisions are not yet really be included in the systems siding will find out about that much much later when we've got accident happening and arm will have two debug what went wrong and as a cup as a culture and society in different places have rulemaking around that anything also the makers of these vehicles and systems will be asking for more guidance in an uncertain country to provide some guidance around how to think about loss of property damage to human life and could you protect and that think that the derailleur point about the challenges of when you break the rules in an old and some some of the challenges of human intuition has again those are it is possible to safely are suited to stay far enough away from the cyclist that you know the person behind you is legitimately our inmost believer listening and said they would be required to slow down for you because they're behind you and Enzo from what I've observed and we have seen many these cars drive in such a safe and slow way the deity don't really behave humanlike and they actually sort of a cell respectful of keeping boundaries around people never running late is always going to complete start the axis of cause problems for human drivers are interacting with them and this is what Google and memo been spending a lot of time on as they they now know how to drive and fold the rulebook but there are learning how to behave more humanlike arm and and that is a very long process and if you're doing that as you said is in a rule-based way you Gallardo rules to build Allah to validate and the promise of the deep nonnetwork than the AI table learning is that you wouldn't have to codify those arm and the problem is not many of the systems are actually in use in any of these higher-level functions are currently mostly use through land tax and object detection free space detection should have arm much more the perception problem and sell I think most people actually cannot make a good estimation of when this will really happen except to say that to get to a level local email is possible within a couple years of use of starting fresh and also that the are necessary requirements benign sufficient of understanding where you are in the world are being understand the land being a look salary being a lytic exit those all-important prerequisites to be altered even worry about these higher-level decision-making components and so that of the focusing on now our main aim they just icy dumping that many people yet are working on the trolley problem logic of any inquiries and arm unfortunately or fortunately there was another actually can become important decisions yet because even if you're in a time as taxi in one of the city the next couple years if it freaks out is Nepal aside the road and put its blank resign and night make an extreme decision and they think are that's gonna be interesting to see what happens when all these cars are pulling or inside a Rotary data that are neither doing and let our cities finance to be not good enough level for Oregon for the streets like the scene we like our iMac emergency braking so many guys have it I think many people know what the constraints are doesn't always start to the stuff ready are the stuff about followed as other person with upper truck that you really don't get to test me the systems and muscling goes wrong and arm the interesting thing for the time of safety systems people be using them in a much more active way because of the experiencing out is driving them but having actually driven autopilot and you you are the think people have a very strong preservation of life and desire and even if you are letting the car drive you as soon as you feel a sort of behaviour weird nuclear hand back on the wheel and you don't let it just drift away any more you pay attention and I think from many of the people who have autopilot when you speak to them they they know the constraints of it very well because they use it and it is a life-and-death matter and when you first tried out I think people a little bit more reluctant than they are major sort of be blasé and to grant of the wheel but as soon as at correct anecdotes across the lane a little bit their hands go back on the wheel and I think you would see owners of our pilot crying Fowler saying I never use it's too unsafe but we active eyes many of the people who have autopilot lover in use all the time and they've learned what the limitations are just like you line with the limitations of the attraction of your vehicle are if you've got low-profile crappy tyres you now can be taking turns at 60 miles an hour if you do it's very unsafe and you make it into an accident so I think many of the same characteristics that have led people to understand the cars can do will happen with the semi time seekers I just hope that people arm don't believe they're fully self driving to the point where they get into an accident meet there in the back of the car and the county cover that I think is on the manufacturer to make sure that people are physically in the seat looking forward ready to take over and that's probably the best they can do until they really cannot the person get out of the seat but I'm getting out of seat at least a decade away yet I absolutely agree and I think that's armed there's a lot of hype and a lot of excitement about it and again excited for the future potential of it but it is certainly further off than them I don't believe the hype may be is that this is that the precaution on that but right arm against the wishes will be wrap at this point I young I Wanna just quickly talk about some of's future challenges and and leave it there so are my guess from from my just looking at whether and I think they need to keep pushing battery technology forward are and to look to the next thing beyond lithium I think you're either that or they don't reduce the reliance on lithium more than to secure access to it a bit more I think are only charging rate still not competitive or comparative is perhaps a better way with saying it with gasoline at still a big help for a lot of people waiting for 30 minutes or more to have their car charged is a very different they have to change the way that they they they manage their travel and so on and for some people are prepared to tilt to where that is not a big inconvenience but for other people that the sale is just ridiculous I can fill my carbon five minutes or less why would I with gasoline why would I want to wait half an hour to an hour to fully charge my Tasmar so that is only needs to be arm pushed forward are the battery exchanging prototype that they did starve that has tried didn't really work out and they, shuddered very core are very quietly sorry and arm but attaché may be made that was a dead end to difficult from engineering point of view perhaps but in any case that the charging rate problem still needs to be addressed are unaware they look at buffering capacitors changing battery geometries arm there is ideas of like you know combined like actually having a pump electrolytes that recharged there's a whole bunch of different options but whatever the solution is they need to be work on and I'm sure that they are arm again maybe been different biotechnology would help with that may be arm autopilot obviously there is a lot of work still be done that I think neural take it so far algorithmically processing power to get that last 20% as you mentioned it's it's gonna take a lot longer that's okay arm there that I think everything that I've seen about has the suggested and can give up on that so that's doubly chasing a harder than anyone else in the market I think armed the costs need to come down are obviously the model three is their first dose tablets at at that and honestly arm if it takes off I can see that they may in the longer term 5 to 10 years price will come down some more but proper not too much more as we close enough for most people arm and I guess will wait and see when assuming 100,000 cars a year or so I guess I believe whatever they can produce at that point as well and Saddam yeah mortgagor factories more power production really arm and I will do whatever challenges do you see of you have anything to add to that you mean I think that ordering from the would-be production capability first as a sort of acute arm in a long-term of course they have to have it sold but in the short term that's a big risk for the company so I think that's gonna be priority number one they now think secondly after that has to be autonomous and not a pilot IP address I feel like arm if you if you don't make enough progress on that quickly arm they have the potential to really miss out arm in a huge way as I think that the tassel will have to be one of the company that owns and controls around on a pile in a timely future is in hopefully will be one of the best and I think certainly understand what's what's necessary through some the work that theaccent I see you mean about exactly but think planning a rocket is simpler than riding a car in New York City but it's at least people but it was impossible and they've done that and got pretty good at it sell think certainly have some understanding of what a tiny means and how to control very large expensive one-time systems so I think that's important adding the massive increase in production on a mission syrup dovetails with that idea that tassel wants to be able to produce multiple are in a multiple car is at the same rate that other car company make one car and especially think eventually Wanna get 10 times as many cars per square foot as other carmakers which would massively reduce our costs arm cell and I think your point on the chronicity reduce the costly customer and so I believe there will continue to be one of the highest profit margin idle companies which would make them one of the most valuable companies because if you have apply Apple margins to car prices you have a really big company and where traditional margins for car companies and one load single digits Tesla gross margins are in the high 20s self they can keep that going forward will be my most able companies to pass Apple setting that of another big one and I think they slightly disagree on the charging rate think the way that I could solve this through 400 500 mile packs arm because then you would be held to introduce a life faster am at the lower rates and lower charge rates and arm deal to give them useful range are in 10 1520 minutes by pumping and maybe hundred 50 kW 200 kW and into much but bigger packet would be a spread that out across the cells instead of right now where to of the smaller packs have to charge a much lower rates I think you think that the call of that encoding is important they think they will may just barely get there with bigger and bigger packs and faster trudging through this packs arm versus technology breakthrough a change arm arm and you think doesn't the meanings of his Illini to keep adding more superchargers and stories but that's a block in tackling stuff at it I think that some really big strategic decisions to be made there think anything to keep executing on and keeping pace go fair enough about the batteries in the charging rate I suppose if the price of your batteries does go down to a point where you can continue to make them the larger battery packs then that's true that is that is another way of handling it are I suppose so long as the batteries remain such a significant cost to the vehicle and to maintain a profit margin that that that solution will be a longer time coming I suppose as yet I suppose is that the way I see that that armpits can be an interesting space to what that's for sure and arm once they are open up more than one gig factory arm may be able become an option so arm and stake of Molly said that Tim announced later this year you heard that right yet that they said they plan are nonetheless wanting more probably China and Western Europe or eastern US think by Tennessee South Carolina something in public China would be my back okay fair enough cool so arm just enclosing about Tesla II think that's they have changed the world's already and they change the space significantly and I think about arm Tesla I think had a part based on my understanding of the Nissen or Miss Miss arm knee son I can never answer quickly and with them arm of the belief the Nissen leaf yet our vault and the vault yes that's right and and subsequently the bolts are lower either in part or debatably mainly due are caused those programs to to move ahead or to be created and an Tesla popularised electric vehicles and if you look across all the vehicle manufacturers in the world there either currently working on all they have electric vehicle programs in progress are those that don't have models electric vehicles in the market in the field yet I should say will have propping the next five years and is that is quite amazing actually when you think about it and and that just wrap brings it back to Tesla's whole motivation which was to accelerate the chow transition to arm sustainable transportation and that they may only be making a few hundred thousand cars a year arm but the impact of their having goes far beyond the cars that they make and I think that that is the most amazing thing to be honest about Tesla so far Yahya Greer for like the amount of impact they have relative to their actual production arm is pretty immense and I think it's pretty high deny that tassel has woken up other carmakers to take seriously EV's and arm and make them possible sooner than they would have otherwise I don't think there was much evidence that other carmakers were really pushing for a nine I do vehicles before Tesla really started gaining much attention with my lesson event email acts in a three clearly walk a lot of people up that there are people like electric vehicles that are not crazy green eco-people and that people don't want gasoline car as they just need a good cardigan praise that fits their style and they don't really care that's gasoline and arm I think as soon as people really understand that most everything about electric car is better except some of the charging things but only in the charging state when you're doing long distance but to wake up every morning and have a cartilage fully available with all its range if some of you have a plug in your home is pretty powerful and arm to then imagine that the car will take you to work arm is pretty great and then eventually you want him out on the car I think is arm it's very exciting that for 50 years or so not much is really change with Cairo's are a visitor Ben incremental improvements but nothing fundamental has changed and Tesla is the representation of that change that happening and arm it's just really exciting to watch awesome writing if you are if you like to get in touch with our Kaleb what's the best way for them to get in touch with him are you pay on Twitter at the Tesla so arm or the Tesla showed outcome awesome thank you very much for joining me to talk about Haslar and I have thoroughly enjoyed it and I don't often get chance to talk to 1 of the people about has the benefit of a fan of your forecast was I really do appreciate you coming on the shotmaking timetable thinking thanks John always appreciated and the blood fine fuel and I have you 3 soon because another thought of that find out about a fantastic�
Duration 1 hour, 41 minutes and 20 seconds Direct Download

Show Notes





Episode Gold Producer: 'r'.
Episode Silver Producers: Chris Stone and Eivind Hjertnes.
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Caleb Elston

Caleb Elston

Caleb is a passionate Tesla follower and has run a wonderful and informative Tesla-centric podcast, has been on several Fremont factory tours and attended some of the recent Tesla events.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.