John and Ben discuss the past, present and future of energy generation, distribution, storage and consumption. We explore the future of conventional and alternative energy sources as well as the changing nature of the grid and our relationship to it.
This is pragmatic weekly discussion show contemplating the practical application of technology exploring the real-world trade-offs we look at how greed ideas are transformed into products and services that can change your lives nothing is as simple as it seems and Ben Alexander Amico hosts Judge Eddie agger Ben is gone to Harry pretty good thank you arm I dislike to before we begin arm Seo special thanks to Wah arm we are some really nice feedback are very confirmatory feedback from some people arm notably are from Clinton Phillips are Lorenzo Donato's last name is but on Twitter is X AB 13 are in Dars anxiety as well so thanks guys for the for the feedback it's our much appreciated thanks and you arm so today we are going to talk about well electricity essentially are witches, I guess what my alley but some specifically will talk about alternative energy but before we get to the alternative energy and and where everything where I think everything is going I'd like to solicit either at the beginning and sort a walk-through the evolution where we are now ands technologies that are available now that sort of becoming more prevalent and hopefully we can end up in a place where were using alternative energy so start with the basics I guess and that is I'm sure while material when the difference when AC and DC power is more a question I think arm to what you are ones are ones is often on our 60 times again on 52nd rate and the other miners what's on my phone that's a different as much as the difference an idea that's that's that's all you need to know that that says it all while is only Addison Kelly animals one of them that's and Anne Tassell want to see the world wait and imagine arm yeah okay let's rather than yes okay so we can sidestep by the dozen would ago look historically there were as as you know you may have an absolute star there is you had day at Edison on one side and he had our it was actually more Westinghouse rate was pushing your year was that he was pushing has was our stuff so Edison was honoured in the DC camp and Westinghouse is in the AC camp and it came back to 2 problems I guess the first problem that are facing was long-distance transmission and the problem with long-distance transmission was that DC had no cost-effective way at the time to step up voltages voltage would drop because all drops of distance you discard you can't fight it yet because everything has a resistance owns law says vehicles IR therefore if I have a conductor conducting electricity it be having current flowing through at the knees voltage will drop over the length of the cable assembly that's just the way it is more current draw the worst voltage drop and so on so with AC are they cannot be at the idea of the idea I had was cynical transformer whereby you take the number of windings and on the bottom half of the primary and then you change some of what is in the secondary and the magnetic field the couples the two steps are voltage up or down is not hundred percent efficient but it's pretty good is relatively efficient something in the mid-90s I think and that gave them the ability to step up and step down the voltage and that meant that you could actually go off my 50 miles and then step the voltage up and then write another 50 miles and your voltage would still be an acceptable level but it was the first thing the second thing that pushed AC over the line was the fact that a lot of the early systems required are mechanical energy so try to get rid of steam so steam engines were driving see a big steam steam engine and that would drive a series of belts the belts will be cobbled together in a in factories and they would drive conveyors and you whatever other rotating machines similar to do as I want to go to the electric equivalent dear rid of the boiler and all other rubbish went with steam and the belts and the at the time at the time the only DC motors and they had were had carbon brushes in the carbon brushes required to essentially pass the excitation across to the writer to actually make the DC motor are well spent whereas AC are Tesla had a design for what they've more what's more is called a induction motor whereby the AC induced a rotating magnetic field within the motor and that drags the writer with that essentially so what you had was a system whereby the majority of your loads were induction motors and you had the ability to step voltage up as distance passes and therefore AC one in the end whatever things are looking at now is a moving back to the DC but for the moment will do small circle back to that at the end so I see getting power out to people are they called a grid of the grid and the funny thing is you look at it on his paper really is not much like a grid arm Clinton asked me actually this afternoon and in 20 said as is it isn't actually desire to look like a griddle not really got a really use your imagination are because nice not the idea is that you've got power stations generating power putting in power to the grid and all these all these high-voltage power lines all connected together through substations and then distributed through lower gradually stepping out of voltage to local distribution nodes in the neck goes out to individual households either overhead or underground cabling all a sea of course either single phase or three-phase power and is the grid itself is is nothing more than just a massive collection of of of high-voltage cables and its arm yeah but also to say about the grid seeking apparel to the grid there's different kinds of power stations and the simplest most basic power station is based on steam and a lot of people to realise this is a go coal and nuclear power all both rely on steam the differences that coal-fired power station has large boiler intake coal you pulverise it are you dry it and then you burn it in a are in a massive boiler and there's thousands of pipes inside the boiler and they have a cooling not drawing what they have the Yum highly purified water for the actual our turbines running through the pipes it turns into high-pressure steam but high-pressure steam and go through a series of far fan blades connected on a common shaft and that turbine steam turbine spins around and makes a makes electricity the nuclear system is exhibit very survey symbolises that instead of using coal to heat up the water they use ADR flew off nuclear fission reactor values a very hot are because of this when you're a purified dumb uranium are you running to 35 to 38 are and is anyway by putting in carbon rods between them but slows down the reactions are such that when one breaks into our cobalt since God forgot my honours that those stray neutrons get picked up by the carbon rods and you get a runaway reaction you don't have an atomic bomb going off what you do get a lot of heat so the reaction does move forward and it generates heat and that heat the water passes through about localised area it turns on steam and tries turbine Cyprus though you've got electricity again thinking about baseload power is just the concept of baseload and baseload lies with things that it's it's kinda like if you imagine that all of the power consumption are in the country is broken down like a but I like your like allow multiple oligo rainbow layer cake wanted but I think about what were the top the top layer no summons strips the icing off every so often the baseload is the bottom part the bottom piece about the majority of the of the cake in the majority of that supply is what I call baseload and a baseload plans sole purpose is to make delicacy as cheaply as possible and for the moment that's coal or new or nuclear because essentially you can feed them constantly and they are economise to a scale at which young couple down often so their desire to be running 24 hours a day seven days a week for a 65 1/4 days here so the baseload stations you don't just flick a switch and say right well done with you for the moment you can do shut off it takes hours sometimes even weeks on mono as much an expert on nuclear power stations but I have worked a coal-fired power station and it will take at least a day to shut down because when shutting down the turbines a massive ones we worked on one lower, 350 MW and when you shut them off you have to keep rotating the turbine so that it cools evenly because if you don't want to happen is the mass of the turbine shaft will actually cause a shaft to buckle so if you don't have even cooling has to call our same rate throughout so that the different key difference in quality bound one where the other correct one year in and out of course what you then if you want pulley one is the issue and to transmit up he sped up again it's got a massive farm will limit vibration and then you can kiss your multiple million-dollar bits of the turbine could buy you shake itself to pieces and you Big Bang so is not something you just do you notice of just flick a switch and so right, that now you use these things are planned outages are planned months ahead of time causes emergency shutdowns and so on but even so that the point is that it is not only to turn off I got to thinking about other forms of of baseload power and another one is hydroelectricity and hydro atrocity you can sort of break it into 22 camps you got the camps we've got continuous supply concepts apply and you got once we've got sporadic supply so are for example in North Queensland there is a hydro plants at Barron Gorge and that only operates during the wet season because during the wet season only then I have sufficient rain actually drive the turbines so during the dry season and it just sits there doing nothing is met whereas if you go to Tasmania or the snowy Mountains when I've got a relatively common consistent supply water or if you need a cause of spring in my backyard here but also I did some work with someone who worked for BC Hydro in the in British Columbia in Canada and what they had was they again had most of their plants had essentially constant supply citing 9697% of the British Columbia's power is provided through hydro electricity I think from memory our letter was about decade ago check that still the case but anyway it was a hydro is another good one if you got constant supply of water you can use as baseload in that case that the telegraph and iCal befalls a higher we had a look Cuyahoga River comes outcomes of the Lake Erie arm runs regular at scale files and diet they just shut down the hydro plant there are but we used to go down in an discloses because you could use a mini can produce much power because the of the files were not very big about smart but on you it was because I was running a mean there is a remedy would talk about it in the real in a pre-election European issue because the environmental issues with anything else will eventually shut it down but on the other are very proud of the fact that that that we had around while actual the struggle to get to a control, some white.about the great blackout of 2003 are glad to find it's fine I was fine hydro to be one of those weird one so why things would not go sometime as the practical nature of the baseload plants but keeping in mind that they have a high high initial setup cost but they have very low relatively speaking cost per megawatt of electricity generated which is why they are ideal for baseload so with coal Arcola is cheap and that's why we keep burning it and that's you honestly probably dumb but that's the nature of economics people want cheap electricity so they say right in Alice's biggest apparent this finite resource out of the ground pulverise and burn it and make a atrocity and up we are we clever thing is depressing to me about coal power and in fact arm you know the whole problem is that the conversion efficiency is terrible so you would get somewhere between 3540% conversion of energy and that coal to actual electricity out conversion efficiency is shocking and is in a lot of that waste is our waste heat and not to mention a course factor come dioxide which go depending on whether or not you believe in global warming or not arm I'm pretty sure that pumping hundreds of tons of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is gonna do something that is no good thing that is worse than even an internal combustion engine that's pretty bad arm I'm not entirely sure I think internal combustion engines are terrible as well while you articles version of series could be now is that that that there is a thermodynamic law I believe this is part of the problem bites in the end it's just terrible way of making energy while converting energy sorry into mechanical form so both cheap and that's why when nuclear yes St ideal you have got uranium once you've what you've purified enough to gain a a fission reaction you've got yourself essentially really cheap fuel of the problem nuclear is what you do with the waste because the waste is so toxic to tissue to one organic life so what you do it that there is the lesser stubborn the ground forget about idea are which actually come to think of this premise the only idea arm should in an assignment like this that I come back to the year and how it is Akai cost suddenly doesn't become cheapening operate so that said nuclear fission is sort of a dead end really because you inevitably augment a producing so much waste that you will wear that organ ago you end up poisoning you yourself in the end so is not really ideal anyway hydro oddly enough is actually the best solution because despite the factor has initial environmental impact is in order to make hydro work you need a vast body of water which usually means creating dams which usually means flooding a whole bunch of land that was previously not flooded but the funny thing is if you move all of these floor above the any endangered species out of the area to relocate them safely then really you know that Mae and I guess the other thing is control releases to the downstream side of the plant because you are if the if though once once raging torrent of a river is tamed and put through a hydro plant then it may affect the ecology further downstream so if you can you ensure that is not done in a in she largely impactful way you essentially have no waste byproducts arm not putting anything into the atmosphere your gates it's perfect but a funny thing I find is that our environmental groups will lobby against hydro arm but the coal power stations nuclear power stations to bill you are coming so I need you to me as I don't get it in got a goal that seldom go to West Virginia and taken mounds of communicating types of mountains rate to to get to the core and are minutes in a steep that's famous for the coalmining state minutes are just standing still the biggest origami as is our resource extraction is what you were really more politically correct grammar before that and I is discount seeds can see as well maybe that's the if you're making a lot of animals have to move the rabbit out it's very the visuals are very good rate yet this is this the problem is that our greenhouse gases and global warming is a less directly visual connection in the mind and you have to look at 5200 years worth of climate data and you have to do look at climate models advance climate models running up supercomputers predicting go looking at sea level rises and stuff and saying okay maybe this problems overcome.so a shovel atmosphere arm because it may not be but you know if you're a betting man you probably say it had something do it and you look at that yes okay well the digging up this hill will flow you is is not that big a deal when you compare the amount of space we have to flood to get an equally sized hydro plant and they also think while the other power stations takes up less space and no answers this is CEO it's cheaper to build so you go: a cycle the funny thing is for me honestly I think flooding the land in and relocating and be very careful the ecology is a far better way to go because of the long-term you've gotta an asset that if you build and design well with good cathodic protection should last for a very long time and provide your three energy it's just engagement to me is madness that you even choose coal anyway irrespective of that hydro arm hydro nuclear coal the Bain baseload power stations baseload power stations so the next thing to think about is it's referred to a whole bunch of different names but one most popular names released in Australia being we call it PRP clopping and peak lopping is essentially the idea of lopping the top off the peaks of your power consumption so typically there are two peaks of energy there is middle of the day during the hottest part of the day in summer and when people get home of an evening between five and 7 o'clock might there is a secondary peak so they call at the midday or AMP camber PM peak so to peak periods it makes no sense to build yet another coal power coal fired power station or another nuclear plant if all you gotta do is have short-term storage for a couple hundred megawatts so the idea is you build a bunch of smaller turbines to cover those peaks so they only start up as required these particular ones don't actually can't create outcome a cotrustee for as cheaply as the coal nuclear what I can do is they can start up and shut down quickly with no fuss the most common ones are gas turbines and is essentially engines that run on our petroleum of some kind where that's diesel or whether it's CEO jet fuel law by kerosene or whatever but some kind of some kind of an air of an engine the reciprocating engine so gas turbines are probably the most popular at the moment the peak lopping plants and some of them range up in size to go quarter for a gig so your external 50 MW some of the ones that that that I've seen her for serious peak lopping small ones and I will do is I'll have distributed so I have 10 MW here 20 MW there and they distributed throughout the city for localised peak lopping and they usually activated mainly in the summertime with the cooling loads and everything the air-conditioning and and so on in warmer climate and warmer climates haven't done enough work in cooler climates to do a comparative but a lot of the heating that is done in cooler climates is not done through electricity is done through gas because again gases from conversion efficiency is more efficient than an hour electric heater and cheaper so so that's the idea of peak lopping power sites this will agree at the moment is a mixture of baseload and of peak lopping and that has a combined maximum capacity of how many gigawatts and that's based on the demand on the grid is all distributed to different factories and houses and so on so now it's time to think about alternative energy because I start thinking while how can we start to be more self-sufficient individually how can we sort of say while I don't want my power from: to get from wind I want to get from our solo I get it from hydro my own hydro or whatever so one of the things that's I've looked into in quite a depth and has been alternative energy always been fascinated with alternative energy since I was a kid the idea of being completely self-sufficient are as always fascinated me for whatever reason and the first and I think are most interesting one is that is wind and wind turbines so with wind are again it's one of those things that that the first simplest the simplest single be problem with wind is how much is enough in order to actually get a decent amount of payback for from and obviously wind is highly variable so Sunday is very windy Sundays around and the amount of information about which areas are windy which areas are isn't always readily available so if we look at a large industrial scale you look at welling up a wind farm they'll do years of studies to find the place that has the most prevailing wind patterns and not put all of the wind turbines you in that spot but I'll be very careful because the big investment these things gonna be up there for 30 years or so probably are maybe more in some cases and you they will make sure to good investments Ltd a homework I have a look around our over last couple years looking for wind data and it's getting better because obviously we've got more are we've got better tools were got more weather stations out there and each of them as a logging all this information so building up Eli globally a massive database of areas that are the most windy that are best suited for this for four wind power but the great thing about wind power is unlike solar wind often is blowing when it's overcast or when it's raining newsletter to go together always usually and cause wind works 24 hours a day seven days a week if it doesn't eat you don't win when the sun sets you can still get wind so you can be generating power in the middle of the night which is really good the downside of wind turbines and there are a few downsides they have moving parts and moving parts are a mechanical issue so you have to maintain wind turbines and the estimates that that we sort of work to a war between one half and 2% of the installation costs likely written the total installation cost and supply cost of the turbine amounts per annum so override sites 20 year lifespan on your winter wind turbine then you have backend add up to more light servicing costs considering a stretch if you compare it with soul which has essentially none it's our it's near our the other big problem is noise really is whether some kind of you when the comp the controversy comes anywhere people would say I've got a farm out in the sticks and someone says you know what that that he'll right the top of neotropical justice pasture boundary but the top of that hill there you that's that's the windiest place in the world this that's ideal spots when I go and put 100 wind how big wind turbines up there me massive towers 1520 m young so whatever 5060 feet high in the air this huge towers and eagerly running 24 seven or whatever the wind is blowing presumably hopefully 24 seven that from their point of view there and you are sitting there in your house and you hear this low-frequency sort of noise sounds a little bit like our psycho thumping or a whipping noise I noisy act taking South expert get the idea right multiplier by hundred and it could be its low-frequency which you can penetrate buildings I echo collector the other teenagers it's got the the big bass speakers in there in the back of their car you know and you can't hear any travel I can hear is the form rate and you and your car like 200 cars package to hear this you know so bases anyway what you know the others later when IBM set you I drove by one was drugged by our in Romeo and I were holidaying out there in the are the get up you get a gang of 50 100 of those it does can produce insane noise insurer absolute absolutely and the are the funny thing is that I think it's one of those I was here first problems so if I put my foot if I put my farm in location X on the top of that had that that magical hill you 10 years later they decide to put wind turbines on their well you can't think what you know what I you it was quite until you put those things up there and now the noise is keeping me awake and there is actually a condition they call the loosely called wind turbine sickness for the want of a clever name but never gets the point across that the point is that it's it's got to do with fatigue it's a fatigue related illness whereby your sleep patterns are disturbed by the noise the wind turbines 11 class-action lawsuits there's been all sorts of nasty business trying to stop windfarms from going in in certain locations the trick is of course if you do this I industrial scale are put in a place where there is currently no living there because it is not living there that has no complaints right but that's not always how works because you need to go with the windiest and unfortunately sometimes is where people are as well so the reason I mention this is arousal well and that's all nice and sanitary but when it comes to an individual level the question is how much how big a wind turbine can you realistically get for a standard residence site say right now you then Wanna put a wind turbine in your backyard I do great even feasible and looking out edition talk talk you into an ogre the other lowest well just proceed with caution to sustain on a minute hold your horses are in a there are in fact a lot more options out there now than there was last time I looked into this after years ago and essentially a cake and break wind turbines down into different categories so you've got vertical axis horizontal axis and the horizontal axis one is the more traditional look like a big family got three blades on some of got to but usually not more than three blades and there is massive props may spin around in a yellow so spinning around the horizontal axis the vertical axis ones look a bit weird so they essentially are more compact vertically after sorry horizontally and their blades tend to be like twisted year so as how to describe them feathers and outwardly looks on as I got leg a radio in our ethanol of yellow disorderly slightly twisted length and looking at the one year is going for you for coming off a central spindle and yet and see the thing is about those ones is that they can operate at lower wind speeds but they generally produce less power on the other hand though they also produce less noise so while the ones I came across the caught my eye as being fascinating in an festival they are not sponsoring the show so I just picked this one because the Ohe was we fit the bill shall we say so it's my arm it's called the energy ball RV 200 and this particular one is interesting because it is a 2.25 kW are that maximum our wind generator but what is its it's essentially it does look like a ball near Alex on yeah I need lies looks very futuristic and what it does it creates hourly I believe it's the young of interior fact through our lowering the air pressure within the ball are to create a spinning vortex in that vortex improves efficiency of the blades as I spin the thing it's interesting about this particular one though is the fact that at Saar six so that hit here the figures are 2.25 kW maximum output is 19 m/s which is also 68 km an hour or if we go are more imperial that's 42.5 mph and or 37 kn pretty massive clip you Sophia clip with a maximum power no you don't and I don't see that much either here but if you have winds of half that speed it'll still be producing over 1/2 kW continuous so what's interesting about this one is it has Saar it's at night hang on as want this double check arm direct so at 9 m/s as the noise measurements at 9 m a second which is 17 kn attending the mathematic one feel free to but are if they did in audio measurement and distance of about hundred 60 feet or 50 m from sound measurement at 17 kn was only 1.6 dB above background noise sound pressure level some other words it was barely you could barely hear it at that distance now in a real-world application how many people go yard we could feasibly do that starters but still in my case I guess lucky me I have the happy are like that my yard is our I was hundred and 40 m from front to back and is about 36 m wide 38 Ms Weitzman that and that adds up to a fact that if I would put a are one of these down the backyard I could actually have it easily 50 m away from the next person's nearest house so they would never hear it I said now and what might look a bit weird Mountie looks futuristic and cool but that that may not be what my neighbours think and it would produce power reliably day or night and you never hear it unless it was really high winds of course in which case we noise around the rest of the house and probably drowned out anyway you are a few months ago we took a drive via with your arms going to drive out we went out to a Grandpa's cheese barn arm are it what you would expect and on the way out there we drove by 334 houses and a role in an and because the one in the middle had these signs up and it was it was only out there is the these specifically by then it was a strange looking different kind of our country are small your personal wind turbine and a hard knock a few of them out in front of you Charles American et cetera Little League small billboards are put up and I was there is some sort of showroom by Yum thinking of you not let go across the street and it is just farmland for miles and miles miles and miles and that kind of via back and power generation once you're a student you want to get below a certain density of population than that that's pretty appealing while the exactly and that the great thing about wind is a says it generates day and night and will get to Matt Soliman but that that is a huge advantage so in any case I guess I'm getting at is that that particular energy ball model that I was talking about it sells for about €5000 which honestly is pretty cheap for what Ford does and it supposed are you supposed to put it on a 40 foot tower which is in small arm it's definitely you see that from the street its arm the problem I think that the wind turbines GR have the stupas to issues from a residential perspective the first one is the noise you have to get a model that has low noise and obviously the smaller the turbine the less noise it makes but you are the less advantage you have of of using it because you will have a decent size 1 because the whole point of it is this two ways you are you have to approach to alternative energy to 1st one is you have to reduce power consumption first because so many of the appliances that we use in October to submit detailed minute but have to reduce our consumption first and then you have to do look at how can I then provide get that alternative energy either through solar or through my hydro or through my in wind turbine and the problems with hydro and wind are that it is more applicable in larger properties and it's easy for me to say that but in a built-up city area is essentially impossible because you can't put a 40 foot tower on a small yellow eye eighth of an acre or quarter well even if anyone has quarter acre blocks and cities anymore EAE uses the most most places you simply can't and even if you could and find one that wasn't noisy and younger than the neighbours my like it or might not this building ordinary others it's a year plus restrictive covenants and kinda was a z/OS you that's right so you it's the sort of thing that I think people in a rural or semirural area could consider quite seriously however if you're living in the high-density area in a city test go it's not gonna work if you put a small one up that's great it might help a little bit but it's never gonna supply all of your atrocity needs and that some of thing that's that's part of the message of this discussion as well okay any other points on wind before we move on to solar I know of nothing while the only thing I was trying to make up your break can honestly Dragon farm bird doubts see if there is any truth in this only a birds and mention that numbers don't deal well radio towers either but on yeah but the difference is that a massive metal blade spinning through the areas can a chopper burden the pieces whereas yeah flying in front of the microwave dish might just give a bit of a scare while made nothing about, as blinking weights and a plans arm again that year as locals mother okay self winter reminds me of the old sonographer birds but you that's that's the other thing I meant to mention is widely quite right and that is that yes birds birds do copper from wind turbines and you that's that's not not not a good thing but yet everything is relative to what you comparing it to and it's it's all about trade-off and is a trade-off you're prepared to live with and it's I don't mean to sound heartless are anything but given a choice between you know putting more CO2 in the air and you are losing a few birds are songs are not endangered as long as we keep an eye on it than that would seem to be a reasonable trade-off but in no it's just the sort of thing that is either so I just think of anyone Donna go to find out that right to list talk solar which is really my more of my area of of of of background specific I'm sorry this is great now is the art simply guides identification North American birds and trees discuss and illustrate on-site and funny windows kill far far far more birds than 2 billion every year I kill what flying into your picture window and winter reminds Donovan register and is a doublet so call so I apparently sobered down exactly look out for people's windows okay so sunlight the other form of far abundant free energy is sunlight and honestly solar panels always look to me like some kind of a miracle because the turning sunlight into electricity no moving parts and is fine that amazing the thing is though that solar is really only useful in certain parts of the world and by that I mean it's not just if you live in a desert it's also provide the prevailing things like you could be in a desert but that particular desert could be nearby mountain range on the mountain range because a lot of our cloud cover form and even though you don't get enough to get rain you would have enough that would essentially dampen the intensity of the sunlight so it's not just a simple assaying well how many hours a day to get sunlight in this location it's how many hours a day do I get usable sunlight in this location on average I put a presentation together for training the junior engineers are out of, you work for previously and I put up on contact distortion as part of this podcast episode and it's all about solar system design is focused on Australia however the bottom line is that when I was doing the research for it there is a lot of information out there for North America as well and a lot of the concepts the same concepts apply the first thing to get your head around is the fact that you need a solar radiation chart that shows you what parts of the country get on average how the many hours of sunlight are different days of the different months of the year so that the one in the slide deck is actually not us again I say is of Australia but the point is that if you have a look at that the East Coast of Australia gets significant as it gets less sunlight than the central and western parts simply because the great dividing range are creates a lot of clout even a cloud doesn't rain on the westward side of the mountain ranges and I believe a similar issue with our with counter for example with the Rocky Mountains also I imagine would be the same going into the United States going down through our Montana and & inland from there into the into the yard that the prairie states I guess so once you get your head around how many actual usable hours of daylight you'll get on the day you consider start to figure out how big a system you might need but in any case it's not just about photovoltaics because whatever things that people have been working with is local solar thermal so you've got a somewhat essentially solar electric or solar folder for photovoltaic which is the direct conversion of sunlight into electricity which I find cool or there's thermal and solar thermal focus is a sunlight onto a focusing tube and that tube has passing through it some kind of our liquid for transferring heat and one the most most common ones or what was becoming sorry the most popular one is our essentially salt and heat salt up to a very high temperature it melts so essentially it's molten salt and the molten salt is piped through these points are the focal point of the of the reflected dishes and afflicted dishes tracker sunlight as it passes some of the passes through the sky and the great thing with a solar thermal station is that just like a coal-fired power station them the salts in this case carries that heat energy away from the parabolic dishes and down into an hour into a basically a steam generation facility converting that he enters out through boiler water to steam and then driving a turbine and yet electricity again the thing is that the molten salt has an interesting property because well it retains its heat so you can actually build up a stockpile of of of heat energy stored in the molten salt such that after hours you can still generate electricity so what you do is you will simply siphon off a fixed amount and store the rest during the daytime so that you can essentially design your solar thermal plant to create electricity 24 hours a day which is you pretty pretty cool way of doing it these mice are becoming more and more common but they're very expensive to build and again that I get the same little thermal efficiencies because of the Holstein to mechanical energy conversion hypothesis I don't gain spectacular conversion rates out of it you don't get the sorts of efficiencies that in theory you could get out of direct photovoltaic conversion so the guy was a great thing about solar thermal is that because you can essentially then siphon some of that molten salt off and you can then produce electricity .4 hours a day are that means essentially have a solar power plant that is capable of operating in sun is down and the technology is going better all the time but the scale of it is still a problem in its gets quite expensive to build and you also need to have power to tracker sunlight to make efficient you can track sunlight and that requires a tracking system which she has moving parts which makes it less reliable and requires more maintenance please solar thermal power plants are becoming increasingly popular industrial scale but they essentially impossible in a residential scale you'll never you'll never reach a point where that's economical or sensible even so photovoltaics is really the best way to go and rolling out the details to how work suffice to say that certain materials when they are exposed to certain wavelengths of light are well in men's are electrons based on the substance so that whole bunch of different ones and photovoltaic cells form essentially a mass produced rather hang on the most energy-efficient sorry the most conversion efficient solar panels again photovoltaics will convert just under 20% of the sunlight into electricity and the first thing you say as well that's that's terrible compare that to every other kind of conversion that shocking and is but what's happening is getting better all the time so 20 years ago the conversion efficiency was something like my mass produced panels was between 10 and 12% so we've doubled that in a couple of decades and laboratory they're already seeing experimental cells that start to do some pretty crazy stuff they actually are extracting nearly 50% efficiency while of course whether or not you can mass-produce that in a cost-effective way remains to be seen but theoretically at least it is possible and billowing 50 million years were species today are under some of underground you pretty much you yes I am completely agree so bottom line is that photovoltaics for the moment are the way to go and if you you you stack up the thermal versus the photovoltaics of summer solar stuff your overall efficiency is significantly is significantly better for photovoltaic on smaller scales on larger scales it's it's better on thermal so on larger scales you're looking at a maximum of 24% overall efficiency for thermal but the problem with that is of course the maintenance and it really works and live scales whereas once you include all the losses in your battery system when you look at the losses in your inverters that you use which will talk about a minute photovoltaic staff weighs in at around about 13% overall efficiency which to be honest you it sounds like it's not as good but it's actually not too bad considering where we were and where we are now so there's a couple ways that you can do solar connection or any kind of alternative energy connection to your house and I haven't took a hydra yet but arm get to that home hydro it sounds crazy but it's you never know so essentially you need to have a either win toy need your solar panels and you going to need a charger inverter regulator either separately or in a box and they all have different functionality sometimes you begin all in one box and I've seen some pretty cool all in one myself I say pretty cool I would say that but you are you our frozen concern whereby you plug any solar panels can plug in a wind generator you can plug in hydro input into batteries if you've got anybody in the grid if you want to and it will sort out all the details for you and they solar based on size 5 kW system more 10 kW system but grid connects is essentially the way that my house is set up so I got solar panels and I got a good connect inverter and it has no battery option it has no wind generator option it simply designed to as cost effectively as possible 4.8 kW will actually connects my solar power to the grid and why does is essentially the solar panels create PC and it'll run them throughout what would they call inverter and the inverter will chop the DC up into pieces and then reconstructed as an AC waveform sidle chop up and using pulse with modulation will turn that into a essentially a sine wave and that sine wave are that power power sine wave will then connect to the grid and you can then allow power to flow out to the grid or you can take power off of the grid depending on your needs to delegate the capacitor there are cars cycling on opposite actually something more in mind are the the way it works is that all the power the power okay driving the best way to describe it you've got a okay imagine your house has a load of 1 kW and when the sun is overhead the sunlight as bits producing 2 kW of electricity from the sun so that leaves you with that lesion with a deficit we with an additional kilowatt wetware and wears a gonna go your way as wide as one in such a way that your local load will take up that 1st kW of solar of solar power the other kilowatt will go back out onto the grid WAS nosedived to take from solar first year while its current rate of one year if we say it knows I mean it's it submits about relative impedances but the bottom line is that out yet that's exactly how it works out arm I don't know how technical ago so I'll just one of the likelihood that I will lose to me people but the point is that the because your localised load essentially takes that of of what you have to draw off the grid you draw that 1 kW of the grid anymore you take it from solar and what you then get is the power flow back onto the grid and you get compensated for that because essentially you're then providing power onto the grid for other people to use and these grid connect systems are proven very popular because you don't need to worry about batteries you don't need to worry about any of that overnight staff especially was solar because the over it's a cloudy day or night time you got nothing so without batteries you've you have no way of getting electricity so you need to stay connected to the grid so grid connectors taken off massive big time it's been very very popular very very successful and that start to create other problems in the grid but anyway before we go down that road just yet how have to talk a bit more about solar panels of the solar panels all they will produce DC worldwide up in serious problem while a series of chains so you'll have arm let's say one chain where you buy them up in series and you might have 400 vaults into chains and what the inverter does essentially as it takes that DC as a it it chops up and creates AC waveform for the inverter than the inverter then provides the AC were just coming off of the grid and is also important because everything in our house is AC so far we've got fridges freezes microwaves you all that stuff is all AC the funny thing is that a lot of stuff is no longer AC and this is something that is fascinating to watch I'm not sure are if you've noticed in the last 10 years but list air-conditioning air-conditioning in the last 10 years as people start to push this is an inverter system or this is a lot that the marketing lingo use here anyway size and inverter and if you recall a while ago air-conditioner would have a massive clunk in a funk and a big know sometimes even the light might deem slightly and here is big grinding noises that is the compressor kicked in the compressor would run it would compress the gas and that that crazy effect when you compress those special gases in CFCs and stuff and some of them don't have CFCs anymore but in and that creates a cooling effect of any get that blast of nice cold air what will that was a direct online starter that was essentially a single phase AC motor and it was told right clunk start rate cool media we are what you cannot unless one is still 20 recognitions out there like that and that's fine but what's been happening in the last 10 years especially was split systems is they've gone away from that idea and I've gone to essentially a variable speed drive what they the marketing lingo guys call and inverter, does is it takes the AC coming in and visit the night nice AC off the grid forget will torment alternative energy from it takes that at slice it up in the piece and then it essentially procreates a DC bus so you start out with AC at hundred and 10 V or 230 vaults or whatever voltage are at slice it up in whatever frequency was at any turn it into let's say it's a 400 V 600 V DC bus point and so since it's only mixed or new Thomas leasing the site it is not its only grabbing part of the the the the wave yet what it does is on on the rectification side is its it'll run it through the the old way of fashion were doing was to abridge rectifier but there's more than one way of doing it and the great thing with power electronics things like thyristor's and IGT's is that you can literally turn and turn the power on and off arm based on yo computer program seeking save off I take this waveform and I'm going to go… Troubleshot like this in turn on and off when I want to so it only lets power through when you tell it to our many can take away form that starts as an alternating waveform and turn it into a flat DC waveform well I guess was flat this is not away from anymore but anyway the point is that DC bus becomes are the source of power that you can use in the device and inverter what does is it takes the AC at 50 Hz or 60 Hz chops are done up in creates a DC bus and then through pulse width modulation then reconstructs that as whatever frequency sine wave it wants like it so you want instead of going clunk start motor it actually starts at what say 1 Hz and then gradually increases to 2 Hz than three 510 1520 until our target speed spinning up guessing we are exactly 1 of the biggest problems with the whole direct online starting is that is a massive current draw huge current or a course as as your current spikes your voltage drops and hence wasting the dimming of the light sometimes is that voltage drops and as a direct effect on everything else that is connected to your grid so the variable speed drive in these things or soft start is another way of doing it but the point is that the basic idea is the inverter technology instead of having our hysteresis control such that you hit our let's say it's a territory and the rumours are sorry I can't do this in Fahrenheit but are in Celsius of St it's 26° in the room and you are down to 18° what you hit 26 goes right clunk start compressor rate and then it runs a compressor for a minute or two cemetery drops down about 18 and attends a compressor off-again assault on off on off on off thing is very inefficient because every time he starts to start with their motor is a massive waste of energy try to get up to speed was the variable speed drive they estimates of between 30 and 35% more efficient to run a variable speed drive and these inverter systems now no longer have that clunk noises it just you don't use here it spinning up in the near spinning down again my subacute also be a light in one you require any more be more pleasant to live with but also you could you disable you could you can program it to do some pretty tricky stuff in your absolutely and the reason I'm sort of towing the side story the reason that's important is that if things are being run now like large appliances are now being run through variable speed drives because let's face it via season and are solid-state yellow converters are essentially becoming cheap as chips they are almost commodity items now and fridges are using them washing machines using dryers are using them all these young advancements in energy efficiency in our appliances are coming from this sort of technology and guess what this technology doesn't need AC it works fine with DC because all it is doing is taking the AC you're giving it turning into DC first and then playing with the frequency itself so in essence if you get really AC and go straight DC save yourself that one conversion step and that conversion step therefore saves righteously because every time you convert the power you lose efficiency you lose energy so this is where this is that Willis gets very interesting because you've got solar panels print or producing a seat you got wind turbines generating AC arm or leg getting a DC wind turbines are most produce icy arm but the success of our cystic solar panels got DC on your own mental inverter to connect to the grid okay while that's because the grid is already AC but if you want taken to the grid you go go DC to charge batteries is about original DC grey and then you got DC in the house because well you need AC anymore because you're just go running with DC and chopping up to. You devices and so on all of our laptops and computers and TV set switch mode power supplies they don't need AC either the SEC it's the washing machine and dryer are now for clients is only an estimate cell so air if everything else needs arm if nothing else needs AC anymore than why you doing a course there is a note there is a good reason for that but that the transmission side but my point is that I find that to be very very interesting and is gonna come a point in the next 20 3040 years where you start to see appliances that will support AC or DC input and feels it simply won't matter the powers possibly figure it out your and honestly and that will be a good thing because of another step forward in efficiency because you won't have to do the AC to DC converter will have straight straight date DC so anyway this is an interesting side note that I see going on in the world is that AC is dying okay so solar panels we talked about arm appliances and so on AC and DC and how things are moving towards towards DC and AC is becoming less relevant arm while the other things it's worth talking about with solar and with wind is the battery side of this equation so the Barry piece of this is really the problem it's the storage of energy that is the problem and this doesn't just affect the electricity industry in terms of alternative energy sources because as amazing as solar is its low maintenance is relatively low-cost in no the problem is storage how do you cater for when there is no sunlight but this also affects our cars like like like the Tesla or the Nissen leaf or at any of these vehicles now though that of the electric cars because they have the same problem our mobile phones to our laptops do all of the staff was all relying on portable energy and to date there is some pretty inefficient or volatile solutions I think it's worth talking about essentially storage energy storage so the lead acid battery has been around since I think it was 1857 1959 that set arm was invented by this this guy called the guest on Dante and he may have in French and some air anyway and some each of the cells is 2.1 V cell and it uses a essentially a well let acid on Leah Scott lead on it so Scott led plates on it and also has the Arnold electrolyte in them is Saskia typically sulphuric acid flooded lesser flooded lead acid batteries are the ones that you have got liquid in them of course you can get our gel cells which habit have a gel with matting and so on inside them which are sealed lead acid batteries or SLA's but it's all basically the same concept same sorts of voltages and so on the life expectancy varies out of the flooded lead acid batteries will give you 20 to 30 years of life if if you maintain them well in other words you don't overly discharge them you don't overcharge them but essentially they are big they are heavy and I really haven't evolved much in 150 years but the funny thing is up until the last 1015 years they've been the go to battery if you had a solar system and if you had any kind of alternative system so what's happened however in the last little while is our lithium so lithium batteries are as are becoming much more common now you've got the most the most volatile kind with highest energy-energy density is lithium ion the problem lithium iron is because it is highly reactive and it also doesn't have very long life so it'll give you a few years of faithful service medal doesn't die it's yellow so I can't think of it like it it burns brightly and then you dies quickly so did it had a short but intense life and is gone anyway what they are doing however is they are staying to mix together different chemicals are different metals in order to make a better lithium battery to give the lithium batteries properties are more similar to let acid but with its lighter weight and higher energy density the yard batteries just out of curiosity and the Tesla are an incredible concoction sold is listed off so it's a lithium nickel I believe it's kobolds manganese arm and all that is that goes into the area there battery cells about just what is it like lithium ion which is CEO is actually a yard it's a different much more complicated 11 wants is becoming more popular however for our solar and alternative energy applications is the lithium ion iron iron not ion iron is in ferric arm LIF ERR PO for which is a phosphate so that's our lithium iron phosphate in a lithium iron phosphate batteries will give you much higher energy density than let acid they are physically lighter than let acid and they will give you some more life similar lifespan to let acid is about 20 years but they are also dearest poison and the problem is the dam lithium right because lithium is highly reactive and because highly reactive although it's naturally occurring you statistically fuelled the ATO table great doubt that this point out there but it's all reacted and it's hard you're separated from all the other stuff is out there and that gets expensive and it's not as are plentiful or easy to mind uniforms and a reason akin to to extracted than you might think and of course now you competing with you while smart phones see iPhones and you've got android phones probably and you've got are you your MacBook area near every other manufacturer in the world wants to use lithium batteries because lithium is is lighter and has very high energy density so the problem is that you either of these boundaries either let acid oral or a lithium are why lithium refer arm iron phosphate battery you're looking at efficiencies of about 85 to 90% which means that if I put in 100 W of what hours of energy I'm only gonna get 85 what hours of energy back out again so it's not a perfect system because it what you're doing essentially is is restoring electricity is any chemical size chemical conversion you're forcing forward or back based on yellow based on the electrons right sleep electrons in the reaction force forward new pull amount to get it back again but the efficiency is not perfect because you lose energy and heat so you look at things like kick a capacitor and a capacitor is essentially a lossless form of storage to plates and there there separated by physical distance or electrolyte some climate that resists the park passing electricity throughout and it sounds wonderful because you could sink as much power you want is you want whatever rate you want into it was no chemical conversion of the of of the electrons into anything else and I saw wonderful right are even discharge it all in an instant if you want to meet you don't want to you if you did it but the problem that is the size the size of the plates that you need the size a capacitor that you need and if there is leakage capacitors can sometimes explode and that's kinda bad as well so that turns out to be a very very expensive way of storing electricity and it's it's also takes a huge metaphysical space so there is another interesting way of doing it and this is how I wish to circle back to Hydro so Hydro is conical insofar as if you have a big enough body of water you can actually pump water up into other says to dams and upper dam and lower them so you can actually during the daylight so your story righteously what she can do is you can turn the generators into into pumps or use a separate set of pumps and close off the generator lines of yawning and you can pump that water from the lower them to the upper dam it takes electricity that your consumer producing during the day and stores it in potential energy in the water in the upper dam and then at night time you can then open up the valves and drive generators and produce hydroelectricity of an evening see essentially using the water is a big capacitor a big battery and that only really works on an industrial scale the amount of water that you've gotta have the size the dams and generalised everything although I had read about a few people that have actually done this are on a smaller scale was so small I don't mean right residential money like big rural properties I've had a large debt nor its worries are popular style you use is something that even I could not contemplate the volume of water that I'd need to store the energy would be well much much money out of it just seems impassable that it would be efficient but while the funny thing is that you it is actually arm a good way to go insofar as the maintenance requirements are significantly less the lifespan of the system is well beyond 30 years and is arm yeah I mean if you've got the space and you've already got a dam in it then theoretically it although it has a higher star welders have a high starcrossed probably doesn't actually are if you are if if the land is suitable for it does actually work and on industrial scale it's quite incredible because so I arm pumped hydro storage for power are in in the North America is the largest one of the world it's the bath county pumped storage station it stores 3 GW mass massive you know I mean the biggest the powerstation I worked on Stanwell arm was 1.44 GW as one that is a qualified social worker for six months but you are in Australia New South Wales some the young termites three station is 1.5 GW mass upon Hydro station so from a commercial level the idea works can work but at a personal level it can't not not really not for the average person so a stopper batteries can't use capacitor is currently upon Hydro and for a person when we stuck with batteries so we did some costings for an average household as well as an average household in okay it was my house which is not average I guess you count the TVs count computers is an average no is fine anyhow so I did the maths and it turns out that about 80% of the cost of going completely off the grid is the batteries I'll it's huge it's unbelievably huge and the battery problem is the problem it's not and this is the reason why baseload continues to win is because you are producing all this power day and night nuclear coal Hydro do not require the son they are intermittent and therefore they can be relied upon to produce electricity all day all night all the time so the problem with alternative energy is how the hell the story is if you can produce it sporadically you need to store it for a while a rainy day and is the only way to store it on massive scales is pumped hydro and guess what a lot of that stuff is getting candies because you have environmental concerns which I find ironic several individual level it is possible to have enough solar panels on the roof in most houses in my country anyway and in most parts of the southern United States as well and is highly sensual as well central and southern United States have got enough such that you can put enough solar panels on your roof in order to supply the electricity that you need but the problem is the storage it's gonna cost you a lot of money for that storage and is more and more people choose the compromise round which is the grid connect system the grid connect is great but the power company is starting to feel because what's happening is during the daytime peak or solar power also panels on the grid connect system around striped astray of the loan for example is that they're accessing a reduction missing a reduction for the first time in in a light either for the first time ever but is first on the long time from year to year there is now reduction in the amount of power being consumed or rather being required to be produced for the grid and that's because that that daytime peak all the solar solar connect systems in the grid connect systems are now peak lopping essentially but at a residential level so each residence MRM of the salt my understanding with whether the economics works on is that that is you when you need these these peak usage hours integrity and picking up your big mouth really make either money or at least a that's the most profitable time for them to be selling the power rate yes so they really really have to heat that they do and is the problem and so what's what I saw what was happening is that the PMP could still problem because the sun is down between well came it maybe in summer isn't but you know between five and seven it's more of a problem and oddly I hate daylight saving but finally daylight saving actually helps because what they are saving does is it sends people home on average earlier which means that they are home for the PMP at the time at which they are the Greyhound consumption is still has enough sunlight to actually be of some benefit and in the US list that was one of the really big reasons why I it was on it became a national thing was during World War II believe arm bunker and as it was before the first war production so that energy was cheaper for you although GM planted and turned in to make tanks are reading about what I was on an interesting few years back ranting about delay settings and figuring out why it actually existed you had had less to do with farming than than the sinuous that it appears but that's adjusting out another okay so the interesting effect was seeing now is that alternative energy sources also been brought onto the grid so what means is that not just a residential level but at a industrial level such that now is individual you can say no I want to go and sign up with green power company X or Y or Z was the dairy anyway and in your site with them on sale I buy all my electricity from you and it's augur be generated from wind and it'll cost you more sure but they are essentially putting wind power of the grid for you so that you can sort of go live with but no clear conscience or something from my point of view though I'd rather put solar panels on my roof and then at essentially can reduce or eliminate milage as the bell's ongoing environment in my pocket rather just my conscience bottom line though is that I'm still reliant on the grid so what you end up with is you get less profit from the peak periods you get a reduction in your peak lopping our requirements for the major electricity provider so all those gas turbines and an diesel backup generators I bring online for peak lopping a that they're not required so much anymore and when that happens it reaches a point where I start stop but that the same or may we don't need as much baseload anymore and the more modest the comes online we reach a point where the grid essentially will not go any bigger in terms of production capacity but we should limit when we've got this PM peak we can't get rid of and and that limit can only be solved by a better method of storage in an industrial scale the only real answer to that is I think is hydro or thermal arm thermal solar which uses molten salt there's very few other storage technologies I've come across that the doer to do the job needed so until we solve the battery problem we still have agreed and people still have grid connect systems batteries are simply too expensive the two inefficient and you they they simply don't make it an uneconomical but the power Company start to feel the sting and what they doing is they will want the proposals in our local area is that they're saying will go from a variable rate pricing structure to a fixed fixed connection rate/fixed connection plus a variable rate structure so let's say for example you thousand dollar righteously bell for the first year and that's based purely on the number of kilowatt-hours that you use in that year they will move to a system where you have a fixed connection rate of say $500 a year and you then also pay the number kilowatt-hours on top of that and the reason are doing is because all the people with a lot of people solar power now are paying nothing from electricity because they are producing so much during the daytime that they meet their own needs plus they push that extra surplus onto the grid and because they get compensated for that amount at night time when they used to use you some of that electricity back again they end up with a net of of zero dollars you see in the news about something grammar had set up our supper in our solar system and she was now they had a coverage arc remember there was a powerful was this something deeply appealing about that what that's like trying to do to be perfectly frank but that the way the system set up here is that you can never get a check your your produced electricity and possibly give your credit to be used at some point in the future shouldn't need and so I you would say all your money which you seems a bit annoying but from my point of view hey that they are essentially the grid is my capacitor the grid is my battery rate monitor the work mimics given the batteries are the shortcomings rate it seems I can make sense that those problems are solved outside of the home rainout rate that that it pushing it out to and Gangnam options are a singalong substation was something about how that word seems sensible to me absolutely and it's it sensible from from our point of view but it's not sensible from the power Company sprayed another reason is that they want to get away from this is I still have to maintain the grid so what if everyone does this everyone I okay maybe that it is an extreme case let's say that 1/4 of their subscribers are connected to the grid do this they still have to maintain 25% of their infrastructure beginning no revenue for rate sweaters the money come from so they still have to have linesmen that go out there that the climate the power poles and fixed overhead lines may come down a storm if there is a fault or something breaks investigate fix it someone has to go and read the metre and and and you even on my guess modern digital metering systems that report back over rough powerline communications or 3G mobile communications is becoming more common but still this planet don't you wear their salary come from so they going to fix connection costs and of course now this pushes the pendulum back the other way so it becomes cheaper now for me so at the moment that's not the case and that they haven't done it yet that assessed saying look guys this is this is coming because we can't this business model is not sustainable for us as a power company saying it's sustainable so what you do you have to pass on the cost of fixed cost to each of your customers irrespective of solar people don't have solar panels are now getting test off so what is that encouraged that encourages people to buy the dam batteries and disconnect from the grid rate is so you know what a formula lose $500 a year for the next 30 years put that money towards my battery thanks well and and screw you power company right and that's what's gonna happen while you me a supplement tell my story than the the story of cargo files and data in ETE when they set up the ER the files Edison Electric latent power company have the bedrock on because I have that straight but on you was little town about 50,000 people in north-east Ohio farm north of Akron south of Cleveland in and think me very rate of limit of your just yell Subramanian Nace smile American community are nothing fancy in a nonart nut some liberal likely that I'll bite it has this disarm strange and of deeply rooted are Argus nonsocialist attitude towards things like utilities and parks and and arm and in this case public power and their the potholes electrically as part of our the American municipal power images arm but 20 other cities in Ohio I think you do this and was another interesting some long story short Electric was I was super cheap and super reliable in hand the you may remember in 2003 is little versus it's funny so 2003 arm FirstEnergy in Ohio and Akron are they had a Argus they think they had a tree went downhill line in and one thing led to another and our letter are now day pretty much like the northern half of the eastern seaboard had lost power rate was one of those cascading for any recent news older people walking out of Manhattan on foot arm and hand over everything I was out was just all good portion of the US lost power and was now for a few days nothing was going on except for Kyra files there is this little you this tie your community and couple the old smaller exams that were around it still had power and was pleased I was I was living it with my mum at the time and signed I'm getting to watch others on the news whereas of what else is just if you pointedly want having the lockdown are seers of the buildings rather than condone elevated Americana situation was it was immediately aware really deeply of the cut I guess the political aspect of all this to arm our dominant is like love greater of the parties but that there are the squatters a question of will greatly how is your little side of what you're just saying rate that if if these systems don't change in terms of who is paying the bills and and how are our people be rewarded or punished their behaviour are you end up with you giving up control of it rate that these power these are these other companies that are watching as the profits disappear at the same time as the others does this this are virtuous or a vicious cycle the billing on your point of view that pushing people to do more and more of the same thing and but it but there's like an Bulow pain along the way as near zero saying Amelia's SMS that the prospective of growing up feeling like Electric was just the thing you got rate that it was utility just like wider and you knew succumbing there are non-profit as AMP and needy that's not good but I never saw the problem with it rate yeah I think you answer it sounds ago and is an interesting situation i.e. workers are small you know when I was at a monthly monitoring maker a judgement over whether these things should be run by the gigantic operations by it was in pretty stark contrast to service the others now serve huge are company that that Nadal recorded the grid in the US for Ms himself radical rate and literally was a tree or a tree went down in someone's backyard and billions of dollars of economic damage rate just isn't seen here that is inside a mean I suppose problem is people see a have seen electricity as being wise things as they turn light switch on there is an there's no manometer thinking beyond that I will say I gotta pay the electric bill this month right and it's just it's one of those things that we we also have a so used to it but from my from my side of the fence what I see is that all of the all the detail the complexity behind all the different power stations and that the different kinds of power stations and why they're there and how how expensive they are to run the distribution networks and everything dates at massive amount of infrastructure and suddenly things can go wrong rate the funny the funniest thing is that it would be would have been unthinkable arm while actually would have been unthinkable there was a thing there was an approach many years ago before there was a grid for everything was all connected together and why says all connected together it is and it isn't quite as massive areas that are connected on this on certain grids and other sub- grids and there is CO high-voltage connectors and between different grids and so on but bottom line is that we started out with small electric generators and individual factories and in some households even and that would simply run the local what the power of the lights and everything that they got expensive because it was expensive to run it was a your commodity thing and I do really well off residences had them people of rural off in a course power company so we can do this Chiba survey builder like big power stations they run cheaper and it's cheaper electricity they put cables out everywhere and suddenly got yourself our electricity industry and everyone you hooked up to that because it CO faster better cheaper than getting your own local generator what's changing now is that something like solar I keep harping on solar because the beauty of solar is that not only is it free and in the end there's no maintenance costs you can put fixed panels on the roof there is no moving parts and all still performed relatively well you can do tracking and as a bunch of calculations in the our presentation feel free to go through that but I get to some hung up on our tracking verses are non-tracking solar panels but you can get away with nontracking solar panels and it's usually the better option so people are able to put their own stuff in their own house now and if not for the battery problem are could be completely self-sufficient without too much trouble in a lot of parts of the world won't work everywhere won't work year round in some places in solar panels ago struggle to work when they've got a few inches of snow covering them but you comes down to intelligent design and the slope of them to get so often and so-and-so for visitors ways around it went as well as a way so you I see it as being vascular because this whole grid thing that used to make sense to make less sense I can see what could happen is if they do come up with a better industrial scale mass storage are technique other than hydro like maybe maybe they do are there some form of the mass chemical storage of our of of electricity generated from individual residences and you can pay to use that and it's cheaper to use that that it is these batteries then you that that potentially could be a part saviour of the of the grid and and so on but if it's not but if that's the thing doesn't happen and battery technology does improve then people simply disconnect from the grid because it no longer makes sense economically and people take control of their own power I think that's inevitable in the end arm you in that it seems like all the doesn't does the motive history rate in networks don't last forever we start out decentralised you centralise for efficiency technology changes in the new decentralised rate it it's it's funny but you see that sort of thing in management as well rate are the technology in this case drives that rather than one person's whim I guess that's the key difference but still is it is fascinating to watch and honestly if I could economically cut my connection to the grid I'd do it I wish I could because we had a year an ex-tropical cyclone come through our value ago and is it essentially was hundred and some hundred and 10 I think are, our wind gusts are whatever that is not some mph but no respectable across south-east Queensland as it moved across south-east Queensland and knocked down at we're power out for four days now how I had solar panels of the time the grid connects with the inverter had no batteries to store the electricity and being grid connect it needed to go the term uses work against so needed to work against the grid in order to actually function so you would think either solar panels like it is due the daytime will know because the inverter I've got doesn't work like that so as a result if I had have batteries and I had a different inverter that actually was able to work independent of the grid I would have had power uninterrupted the whole time because nothing in my house was damaged now these were overhead power cables many many kilometres away and many of them because it was such widespread damage and took them days to rectify NIC solve a lot of these sorts of issues by going to distributed electricity generation the other are no overhead power lines that to care about any more yeah I was in I was thinking about that after our arm everything attention driving around after our first show at looking for fruit towers result in its infancy and how many there are now I HSBC you can't unseal rate and it's in on and the yelp newsletter often the distance rate but there is one slight can you house were a realise late by public origin and get out late every direction a ceiling couple and you know and and that's minutes is on network rate but it's a hell of a lot different than the how unseen is it really think about music is crazy what we used to break that just everywhere in the eastern US and I mean anything any country from the same kind of population density that we shut down pine trees and stick every 50 for yourself and one wall run wires from one to the other and to our houses in the yard as Carter added some Albert man there everywhere and it's nuts are as ugly horrible system is just year and this is the thing a lot of new estates that they're building now housing estates and so on they assignable all underground rates so because people just don't like it and the finding is where I live is our our state is relatively new is only eight years old and is arms so we build on the estate when it was new but the all the surrounding estates are all above ground our powder or overhead power but our state is now is underground so you can literally see as the two streets are coming in and out of the that come in and out of our area what they do is use this transition resealable cables going down of the spring underground UI I can see the old and new here like it when I count so there are other wires dangling now rate and is since it is a yuck it doesn't look terrible and you looks being one thing every cable is strong in the air is a cable can fall down rate and even if you put on the ground that still doesn't solve the long-term issues when you've got corrosion you've got our water water ingress causing damage to the cables you you've got all sorts of other issues that you've got a deal with and if you get rid of the grid and he goes standalone you have warning that you just you've just got to deal with your own house internally which had a deal anyway but anyway there is one other thing is what alerted to quickly address because it comes up a lot like what I harp on about solar panels is that there seems to be amiss a misconception or misinformation muscle which it is regarding whether or not the solar panels are in fact environmentally better or the amount of energy goes into creating solar panels are is actually a net benefit anything is that it's arm base there was a statement released by the are one of the solar panel manufacturing a few years ago whereby they said that the amount of energy that's been put into creating solar panels has now been generated for free by those solar panels such that there undergone a global scale now I do know whether or not that's actually true or not but it would make sense that it's true to me the thing is that when you creating a solar panel from an environmental point of view it is essentially a very high recyclable product because our an animal because we consider this the boundaries of every time our lead acid batteries look the latest hot is very highly recyclable the glass in the sheet over the top of the bar solar panel solar cells that is also recite very very recyclable usually they have an aluminium frame that's recyclable the silicon itself is recyclable and the bottom line is that you know once your powers of finished their 2030 year lifespan you can recycle almost every almost everything in so they can then go be converted down on to the next generation of solar panels potentially or other products the thing is silicon manufacturing because all the solar panels made from silicon at the moment you women making silicon stuff a long time and people didn't seem to care about it so we go because all the microchips that we used a six everything in our phones in our laptop computers all that silicon thyristor is everything you that all use exactly the same chemicals that you would make to make solar panels so this assignment is not new this is been around long time and no one seemed to care too much before but just just to rattle off the list of some things in that you've got a hydrogen chloride are try chorus Eileen hydrofluoric acid hydrogen fluoride and our golf favourite sodium hydroxide a.k.a. caustic soda these are all used and is the fume organiser some of the more nasty ones in the manufacturing of the of anything of any go of silicon and obviously letters a heavy metal sure you know and yet we all know the whole story of the Romans the lead plumbing and lead poisoning ice of stuff but the bottom line is that this if it's handled safely and done correctly there's really no environmental impact because you can neutralise and dispose safely of that stuff without leaking into the environment causing a problem so the whole argument of solar panels in the finding is a solar panels well in terms of energy that they make the average polycrystalline solar panel these days would will generate them the amount of energy is required that the took to build it within three years of its installation in less than average installation location with five hours of sunlight a day so you a lot of those arguments don't hold water and wind generators are similar sorts of numbers as that is that holding true when it comes to cost as a consumer our costs as a consumer in the part while you are an example for my my payback period on my solar panels is 6 1/2 years so the end the 6 1/2 years time I will have saved enough money are and the point I will pay for those panels are and that includes the interest on the loan that I took out to do it up so yes with Dawn but that's of course assuming that I pull the rug out from under me survey say when I can introduce fixed connection costs for your electricity and I drive my buildout is zero which I'm on my way to doing other reached the aplomb or more on the road are then you know that that changes that that number and by how much changes I don't know but then given that I got 20 to 20 to 35 between 30 year lifespan were panels I don't expect to be an issue I expect I will recoup the cost and then some of these panels in their lifetime and that's not including the environmental benefit of doing so it sort of for me as a double whammy of the two-for-one deal so that thing is what could we talk about is energy around the highness of this two ways you look at alternative energy and the first the ways is of course of getting a different power source in my case of gone solar a combination of solar wind is probably the best solution but I understand is a lot of places it can't do it Hydro personal Hydro mode of majority people can't do that this if we don't have a running stream of water in their backyard I don't have dams in the yard majority people don't have those things wind you can get away with nonrural semirural and even on some larger suburban blocks perhaps long as your ordinances allow it and you pick a nice quiet one and is fully the best combination when plus solar to give you coverage 24 hours a day but going outgoing standalone honour batteries are still expensive option but if you try to drive down your consumption as well that's a good solution size to have a macro in my Mac Pro on idle our border is like 25 bucks on eBay and it's a power monitoring device it measures instantaneous power average power and because the usual otherwise low-voltage Curran yes I want nothing flash but it does the job and it measured the power of my Mac Pro at idle this is just the tower unit not the monitor but it measured at about hundred and 38 are what's instantaneous power I measured my MacBook Air and it makes it it was idling at 18 W so there's an phenomenal difference in how much power was consuming so I sold my Mac Pro solely for that reason I sold and I miss my Mac Pro I gotta admit but you know what I'm using my MacBook Air for everything and I'm planning on getting a Mac mini whenever I put the Haswell's and is below power again and essentially that should come in and around the tender 15 W range that amount of saving are by getting rid of the Mac Pro and my kids had a Macintosh I put together and it clocked in at around about 100 W are continuous and idle our ends the elimination of those two has saved me $220 every three months power bill item numbers but back in the early 2000's are had a small web design prednisone chart and on we figured out the mouth on what it cost for big gigantic CRTs were using and yells the same story Lake real world gave wrong on Best Buy really get some nice flat panels because the essence and is it's nuts how much less power is dry now I absolutely my TV like am I out of the Apple TV and the Albany mail Daiichi plasma and an example to be drives like 1.3 maybe our just not what is the setting out rate and are messages in better and better all the time while what I recommend people do is if they want to reduce their power bill arm just for that reason alone have a good critical look about what you got a new house and in the bottom line you don't don't expect it to change overnight it is have a long-term plan so when you buy an appliance of any kind asked the question how much power does this thing consume and if you dig enough on the web you will find information there is stuff out there for a lot of appliances these days by one of these energy metres there are 20 $25 investment they are they are worth there they are by will pay for themselves in the first appliance that saves you money and figure out usage pattern so that the big hitters are lighting arm computers and televisions of course you replace television every two or three years while hopefully don't I guess maybe someone does but anyway are I checked out our television draws the gets 330 W continuous and it needs to go but I can't just get rid of it because it so it was at the time it was arm is a $1200 investment I found an equivalent size TV are the cost $2000 right now and that's going to consume less than half that amount power considering it's on a lot alas it is a lot shorter should be minimal and thus can save me a decent amount of money but the payback period and that's much longer so I'm suggesting people do is you plan your purchases accordingly so you know I cabling at my next device to replace is only get one that really energy-efficient in drive those efficiencies so me I had a 27 inch IOC monitor I got rid of it and with the Mac Pro and replace it with a dare I admit Samsung but hey nice monitor in energy saver mode it can see it it uses a just about 1/4 of what the 27 inch monitor did you really needed resonance might I decide that I didn't because obviously the big area the more backlighting the more electricity that takes on this thing sits in a darker room so I can get away with a lower back light energy saving mode right in energy saving is in sleep mode in energy saving is in it uses significantly less back light energy are this thing only draws 10 W at 24 inch monitor so that's I recommend people do and what I'm trying to do as I try to reach that magical balance where I'm producing a surplus of solar of a literacy from solar panels and I'm not expending enough are not consuming kilowatt hours to end up with a positive electricity bill on trying to reach that magical zero I could be a year or two out from that but I'm planning for and that's that's that's what I'm trying to sue cantering into again it's our messy think about the gate the people whether the previous is not in a high regards have the law in the displease next year speedometer showing you your your fuel consumption and how that that behaviour that that metric influences behaviour because you people start paying attention readiness resistor measuring it you start is almost as I was without even countries after you start to what the winter and immigrant things in the games and I think like gardening Oliver Nass thermostats and exotic: Courts motorhome planner things are seen to be playing on that are you finding that one and that you're less a challenge and elegant house and you know it's it's it's an older house and so we would like an opening for a gonna show about the the windows rate and are over body which is gonna come out here at some point in his galah is all is not here and how they got infrared thermal imager as you can see worksheets leaking from you and it climate weight yellow is one of the first does things it is a skull get more insulation indiscriminate and find out where your email your theatre and I just did just that the other the sheep distortion is coming out of our additives and stuff like that and I it is gonna find legally hunting dogs and code there absolutely no answer is a very handy tool for finding finding issues so you that's how you think we can hit i.e. I think it's interesting it's it's one of those problems like yours a big global community scale problem and there's a lot of late as a lot of gnashing of teeth already by a like the way you put it together especially you have to make these arguments and in terms of economics arm if if any injury conceived sort of that in other the slow adoption of solar I think it suffered from not enough of that in the beginning rate and the people that put on the roof as was the primary political statement which is which is ways and understand by things like the lightbulbs and how it renewal at the point works just your gut is these high-quality reliable pretty and expansive long-lasting bubble logo what would the Di Jim Smith arm Smith DW there were out will have less axillae facts worried about Australians the company he works for it is not only missing Sue Bonilla select 35 years superefficient and you can control from your computer so they are programmable and you can do anything you want with the things it's it's like this no-brainer rate there is there's so many different ways to appeal and also I think about was thinking when he is going to this is is really is an a signal one single answer recollect solar power I live and you need to get to a certain a certain yell cost efficiency ill make sense but in admitting where I it's famously greater like we get so maybe 90 days out of the year by there is is asleep with the peak energy usage you want to find the specific for you things that they give the best bang for the bike and it just requires work committee think of arm are desired the new movement in farming arm can use the wrong parameters implement the other thing is as essentially as is insight it's like strategic farming it's it's it's highly libre air and are computing intensive rate there there are planning out the use of the land extremely efficiently and making sure that whilst we have this crop going here one year when I have the chickens restore here the next because it can affect the soil in an older sort of thing and it's it's great because everyone is profitable by it really really pleased to what humans are good at as opposed to just kind of lulling us into hours away is done in a scanner feels late the grid kinda did that to us I think one of the interesting things I start out talking about AC and DC and I never really I need to circle back to this one of the problems with electricity is the source that you can generated does not always equal the destination you want to consume at an it that's a big problem because if you think about it the Mojave desert might be the ideal location for a solar power plant rate but the problem is if you're in Ohio and the Mojave desert is a very long way from there how do you get the electricity from point A to point B from the source to though the destination and the problem you've gone with AC in particular AC is that wet when the field alternates there when electric and magnetic fields alternate at 50 or 60 Hz what happens is you get a coupling effect and is because essentially if you've got a conductor that's going over the ground in the ground the earth or ground when a court is an imperfect conductor but it still does conduct electricity so what you end up with as you get an inductive and capacitive coupling effect and that coupling essentially allows you to transfer energy and in this case coupling to ground is energy you don't want to couple because that coupling is essentially a loss and is the same kind of ideas a wireless charger right so you've got a phone that doesn't have a physical connector and it charges itself on essentially what is it to a bunch of coils are about it that this is inside a plastic or rubber mountain you simply place the phone on top and it's got matching coils that pick up the magnetic fields it's magnetically coupled between the two so the point is a battle of coupling a sort of energy transfer are similar kind of idea with AC power lines and is one of the reasons what I want to put the high-voltage power lines so high above the ground to reduce that coupling effect but you still get coupling you still get loss and and that's bad and you look at the reasons I put in the first place was step up and step down transformers while been talking this this last well gosh going close to 2 hours per week talking about the whole effective of the thyristor control IG BT control steps like literally turning power on and off when you want to end and allows you to go from AC/DC and back again but what it also allows you to do is to convert different voltages to different levels not just the frequency so she can do is you can literally switch voltage saves you start out of the thousand volt DC you can use switchblade technology to boost that up to 2000 V or to our 2 kV a court so you can now using switch mode technology with with silicon you can now switch the power to ever voltage you want suddenly you need transformers anymore the lease on the traditional sense and you can you can actually do away with the whole idea of how using AC transmission Washington DC and that eliminates a lot of that coupling effect I was looking for a percentage figure I am unfortunately I'm sorry couldn't find one but there is a percentage improvement arm over average ground that you get from going from AC/DC only significant especially when you consider that these systems carry 0 MW or gigawatts and in some of these power transmission lines obviously it's still not a perfect answer but if you think about if you were to convert everything across list so you get a 10% improvement I don't know what the figure is oh I'm sorry I wish I did but I couldn't find it for this episode are facilitated 10% improvement well that means that you could for the same amount of power have your generation source 10% further away from your current destination with the same performance so as the technology switches over to a DC based system for high-voltage power transmission which is the next logical step because after example the new Hydro planner three Gorges Dam in China are all of their power distribution high-voltage is all done on DC and our DC is better for underground because again you get less coupling again underground so undersea cables of most ones around Europe are all high-voltage DC now it's it's all going back to DC again because the Yates it's more efficient is less coupling in you we can do with silicon now what we had to do with the transformer 2030 years ago so anyway bottom line is that if you can reduce your losses than that means that you don't have to put solar panels on your roof in Ohio you can have the solar panels providing power to you from a thousand miles away in theory if you put in a lot of them and then his another funny little effect you can think about as well for a minute and that is let's say that you've got you a big big country like the US or like Australia physically a large country you could have solar panels starting on the east coast going all the way across the West Coast in Wells lit areas and as the sun is passing over those areas you will get different amounts of power available in your system so you could still be generating power on the West Coast even though the sun is down the east coast and as your transmission improves and you reduce your losses than you it's quite possible that you could be generating wind energy in some part of Montana that is being used elsewhere after sons gone down so the grid could still have a big player part to play in alternative energy if if everything switches across to DC we reduce our losses that way is also advancements in superconductor superconductivity but at the moment that still laboratory that still experimental is not it's not enough this it's not far enough along as technologies go that's another potential and in advancement is critical while I like that we die, there's a bank I keep thinking of farm yachting ballet 2007 2008 the big economic crisis and arm normality man and yours essentially a lot of hours on the my gun back in the car to me and that the one the web always bothered me was the lack of a big big project rate like a Manhattan project are Tennessee Valley authority something that we we we die credits for a arm translating windows and from making roles or any of energy-efficient media was a decision by AO is an awesome program you will miss is that kind of big thinking arm going or what you're talking about rate that we got this immediate spine media something is better off are smaller and administer the do it because media is part merely passed by this time around by diet you know why we didn't end up with full employment and time the guys digging ditches on the size of the of the interstate highway system rate and we already have a large use was away and cut out of our country are what we could put panels everywhere and you look at what I was doing with their data centres and these these crazy solar arrays that they're putting an arm come around but not around sister lament that sometime help many things are economically efficient yet or they will be early a few years or those added costs associate with a list we have in the end you can cut above me that we we didn't take that opportunity to Push forward a bit because every rickety year (not doing so great you at some point are they will have to be an occurrence something that causes everything to change an event and in Queensland the state I'd I live in for example that was when they had the our solar panel are bonus scheme whereby they said if you have solar panels installed on your roof maximum of 5 kW by a certain date we will give you a $0.44 per kilowatt feet in tariff essentially meaning that the consumption tariff at the moment is $0.26 per kilowatt so if I consumer kilowatt I kilowatt hour sorry than its cost between three cents if I generate that same kilowatt back onto the grid feed into the grid monomer get paid quite "paid $0.44 which is insane in a insanely good but what did was it pushed a lot of people who had never considered alternative energy to say I can say money my power bill it they may have made an economic issue rate pushed a massive massive boom and that what's happened now is that they produce that now down to 8 cents per kilowatt hour lots of right eye months I missed out on that unfortunately there is a long story behind a minor point is dominate cents kilowatt hour versus $0.26 in so I am already producing you essentially nearly 3 times what I need are and I still have pain for a bill like a bushel lower than that arm and if I went to batteries I would be fine but never mind that purchase cost barriers to much talked about that so what is done now as it's pushed the consumption of the pickets of democracy on the grid down significantly to the point which was seeing shrinkage so in a time when you've got more and more flatscreen TVs more computers charging more handheld devices all of that stuff more and more electrical appliances and electrical load in theory going into the grid more new houses more everything and yet we have a drop in electricity and why would that be that would be because of the solar energy scheme by schema put in five years ago and that one event drove up a change to a point which now that the electricity providers are talking about as I said going to a fixed price monthly for connection fee or three monthly so at some point that will happen whether some state-by-state basis or a federal basis irrespective it will happen something has to happen and then it will change but for the moment are I see where we are as being an opportunity for people to reduce or eliminate their electricity bills if they are in in many locations around the world and if if theocracy providers are interested or capable of proof of giving them do that and the possibility of energy independence which is something that fascinates me in my my ideal would be to have an electric car and have an overnight storage our system without batteries are similar technology such that I could disconnect the grid had drive like a cousin of my fuel bill and have no electricity bill that stats would be my ideal scenario was just thinking about that work would electric car is being sought an intermediate start for dealing with the battery and in essentially until we have in some sort of golden wonderful and a highly efficient storage unit that you can establish a base map arm win just paving your access ordered to keep your business type park your car I am there is a citizens act as lights in ways that is like you have like 16 glasses of water in front of you and your pouring in the wine and as it fills out you want a safe and often do all these other ones rate suitors minimising your you minimising your spillage was counted as going out and going nowhere and if you manage that intelligently enough than you you're always gonna be riding the crest of that wave rate you always gonna be in the best position moving forward regardless of what happens there absolutely longer term down the road there will be this should be I would hope there would be standardisation whereby the arm whereby I would say that the door swings both ways show SA so rather than just having got solar panels and they are charge the batteries that the house go whereby you would have a true power converter such that power could follow the direction say it's okay well I'm going to charge my car battery my car battery pack but now looks my house is lower than it is the car so on a drain the car batteries and push that power into the house system and that sort of interchangeability whereby the storage is a common medium are held in different locations of one fist fixed location mobile locations that sort of thing longer term is where it may end up going whether or not the others all regulatory issues and how you would make that work with a vehicle and so on but only whether the world is away campground system of you and you were batteries will be like a plug-in device is simply RAID Marlboros go and buy few were plugging into Iraq you know and that sort of thing is still still not there yet and the battery problem is the problem until then grid connect is the only real viable option and is until the power companies make it are not a viable option anymore which case batteries will be back on the table anyway you never answered my question what was the question sorry the back of my cloudy between two high tension wires or made it evaporate I will the serious question are well arm let's see here are maybe noisy answer iCloud this piece exactly right I can't go wrong with that as a ceaseless, go with that option my dunny darker reference from the ROA role ruggedised 11 AM I get lucky here exactly our overnight so hopefully other people do to also it's one of the others I'm glad we talked about it because it's one of those on you and someone who is done my all electrical tinkering but never really knowing what I'm doing and I think I will estimate and took a course that dealt with any of us would have in high school and I was being attention arm is good to get a pragmatic review of what's going on so I can think about really because a God I think I think there is a lot of misinformation out there or disposing of eight something once when I was 15 and us just aware think it is nothing to change lifestyle something you there is a lot of misinformation out there that's for sure and I find it to be frustrating and ever disheartening to hear this the scaremongering about IR solar panels are the vagaries toxic chemicals to make them in your cycle beauty realises the same toxic chemicals gonna making your iPhone right and your laptop and TVs and in all these other things on the golf arm nasty things in them are I find that to be frustrating and the whole thing would wind the wind generators and noises are your wind generators or lettuce can be no evidence can lose sleep and so on and at some point you though that the Powerball energy ball for example that sort of thing may just become standard and people just accept you know what babies are actually pretty damn quiet and you want that look that bad lessening to look are as bad as you whatever else and the giving us free electricity so what's the problem and it's a a frustrates the hell out of me as an engineer when peoples are prejudices and opinions. Progress it's frustrating as hell because you know that most of the issues that arise the ball shed unfortunately so far but unfortunately you you know you can't fight that perception and Yates it's even if it's ridiculous even if they've proven it's not truly I think things have a habit of people have a habit of believing it and what who started the rumour I don't know if things actually happened I don't know but you seriously I know a lot of the complaints about wind a lot of complaints about solar panels and so on are just unfounded so cool we wrap it up to the ever want to talk more about this you can find John on Twitter at giant UG Geo each and see each IDG EY the same on our.net like to send an email you consented to giant attack distortion outcome and bounds and encourage me on Twitter at Fiat Lux FM broken seashore announcements and related materials by following the shows account at pragmatic show thanks for listeningï¿½