Pragmatic 21: Daylight Saving

20 May, 2014


Daylight Saving was introduced as a means of conserving energy but does it achieve that in any way? Do the benefits truly outweigh the confusion and frustration it causes? John and Myke Hurley go through the history and draw their own conclusions.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic as a weekly discussion show, playing the practical application of technology exploring the real-world trade-offs we look at how great ideas are transformed into products and services that can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode is sponsored by wet frog studios visit wet from to get in touch and take advantage of a special offer for the app icon and logo design service exclusively for pragmatic listeners this episode is also sponsored by audible please visit audible for a free audiobook download will talk more about our sponsors during the show I'm your host on GG and I'm joined today by a special guest host Mr Mike Hurley how are you Mike I'm very well John thank you for having me today thank you for coming appreciated so thinking you and why you should be thanking me for having you like how does it work as a guest post wide eyed like I like to see you as though as a co-host more so than just a guess I just wrote but urges one kind of conflict confirms that connecting the two terms guest host as opposed to 1 of the other art coalesced you code yesterday now maybe a switch up to that but absolutely so further listeners of father show that don't read are my Scientech distortion arm which you a publisher but that's okay if you're too busy are ands those that haven't don't follow me on Twitter or the pragmatic show accounts are may not realise that are there been some changes are on the show hours on it briefly talk about it before we dive into our to a topic that is today so basically after the soul-searching are I decided to take pragmatic indie and another indie sort of one of those arm and a catchy terms terms of the moment something last couple years are much away but the idea is that some I decide I wanted to shake up the show a little bit and have different guest hosts each week so don't worry Ron Bendel still be making appearances as if time permits and I just want to make this as clear as possible as has been some speculation regarding why I've done this wife was moved away from fetlock snug on my own and I am sort of art of unchecking a format this is really no gossip or back story or anything really interesting are it's just being on the network it takes a lot of pressure off you as our as a podcast because I take everything for you that you show up on your record and that the trade-off though is that you hand over a degree of of control to them ands and generally that's that's not too long on issue it's just that after a few months I realise that I'm actually a control freak arm in a way she told me that in the past and I saw is not not arm anyway so immiscible voyage of self-discovery I realise okay maybe I am ands it in the end I just decided that you know what I actually would like more control of my show and that was it really arm Ben and I are still really good friends and I also think the work that the Philips team are doing on consolation is excellent and people should be paying attention to what they're doing if they are already are I do think it is really good and you should check it out but this point I'm taking on are that the whole job editing publishing and talking responses and such are where previously I have one a network but is not a problem for me I don't think because I done this before an existential so I know I'm up for it so is nothing happened on the floor so anyway arm this honestly not much more to say about its art if you want to read the text version of what is said arm there is a post context or single pragmatic season to our I'm currently working through some issues with arm iTunes and their iTunes that pragmatic has disappeared from iTunes unfortunately are I am still waiting for the new feed to go up as soon as it goes up and let you know that in the meantime if you visit take distortion/pod casts/pragmatic arm there is an RSS feed you can subscribe to that if you're listening to this chances are you've already found that or your podcast has already updated so that'll be all good okay so now that's ands our time to get on the show so what you think I'm doing are differently is that I have a list of topics of things that I'm in a would like to talk about and I'm letting my guest host each week pick what they would like to talk about so Mike what would you like to talk about today will was a very interesting list I was very daunted by the list so I decided rather than go and talk about something and all about what really there was many things on the list I was deafening as much as you would turn John because you are knowledgeable about all things are arm I decided to go for something that angers me because her something some people enjoy it when I get angry about things arm and that is daylight savings time and by extension for me anything times and related I actually it's a good choice because daylight saving something that's our end I believe the northern hemisphere started about are about 34 weeks ago now so this thing is about right is not our lessons about rain and the reason that owning the reason may be absences both because were not in America so we have to to deal with our American friends colleagues and co-workers arm when they change their time over and what a notice is the same for me anyway don't have it and wanted to deal with and in Australia so apologised on some but a few years ago there was a change and I believe is in states that changed when they were doing at the same time if I'm correct you some yard and as a then it became a point of now there is about three or four week differences and in one case in which our times of change and that that wreaks havoc upon my schedule well I can identify sympathise one of problems with podcasting although it's not saying that this is this is not a new thing for me personally because of what the forest podcasting I worked at Nortel is a first across other time zone problem are because Nortel had done development via facilities working on the arm the macrocell there was some of my was based in Calgary we had an office in Ottawa are we have one in Richardson Texas and we also had one in the UK and trying to remember the arm maiden was in Maidenhead I think anyway it's been a while but I do point is that we have four time zones to content with yours at a Sydney office arm which you would think being from Australia hey I worked at Nortel in Sydney but Noah didn't anyway arm and I was was frustrating as hell bits are the problem is that there is only one son and bursts the earth spins in one direction and the others in flat so is Connor I know how I can I can now soothe your time zone deals but are apart from offering to spread the world flat somehow are don't know how John green while hey okay how I'm yard to get back to that are yet as for daylight saving though I've always had this deep-seated dislike for it but that's because I grew up in the tropics so one of things I wanted to get my head around and smiling has been bugging me for years and I guess this is an opportunity for me to finally delve into exactly what I hate about it at daylight saving where it came from whose crazy idea was and whether or not actually make a difference to anything so that's what we have is all about so will start with arm the basics which is arm what how we set midday and Mrs just in again is Murray's high school stuff that went on, or quickening the definition of midday is the time of day at which the sun is directly overhead simple enough right tasting plastic on level ground up a perfectly straight statement over level ground that is precisely perpendicular to the ground no shadow will be cast on the eastern and western sides of that stick were at midday now you still gonna get a shadow based on the angle of the sun because the earth tilted at 23 1/2° on its axis so anywhere between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn there will be two days each year where there is no shadow at all in any direction unless of course you're right on the Tropic in which case only happens once so that's how you figure out midday daylight saving pushes midday out for miscellaneous reasons will get to so psych if you're a kid doing this experiment and you picked one of the two days in which cost no shadow it would really ruin you for life west the shadow God and my sticks broken after dyspepsia was I grew up in Rockhampton which is right on the Tropic of Capricorn's as well as things that you you we wish to learn about school we did we actually did the deed did the exercise arm action try think about the area she did it exercise arm on the our basketball courts and down the Abas not what you go further south from their annual you always have a shadow but anyway arm again is two main arguments behind daylight saving is and why the hell we want to do this the idea is it's more sunlight time in the evenings to spend doing recreational activities the funny thing is that's actually not the reason that it was originally implemented had it was part of one of the proposals for doing it but that the reason that got overline was actually saving energy as was the claim so will dig and that when the minute but the finding is the whole idea of changing the clocks and pushing the sunlight back or dragging the human day forward if that makes any sense arm it doesn't actually work in an agrarian society because people have to work when the sons are so it really start saving could really only happen once our society had predominately shifted to a business office industrial school-based structure you with with commuting hours business school hours industrial facility hours remaining fixed so you always show up at eight in the morning or if you're not like me shop at 1/4 seven the morning my Julia three 30,000s of are so bottom line is you had to wait till that society reach that point if we could even do this because otherwise why would you not do it arm now when the sun was up because surely that's more efficient sons upright anyway so the idea by high-calibre daylight saving is you want the clocks forward one hour this is not a modern majority okay and frankly the whole world is a crazy place so it's not all like this but the vast majority it's one hour some places 1/2 an hour summer two hours this from even a three-hour one out there if I dug deeper but honestly… Go with the vast majority is one hour and I believe that there are some states in America and that do not observe as well yes they do nothing pay and the hands of your mate I'm in Queensland and we do not observe daylight saving so idea where what will the rogue states or something like that anyway arm near we are unaware like balaclavas and things that anyway I write to the point is art yes look arm it's an hour and the idea is you wonder clocks are forward at the beginning of that that time. Where is whatever the day of the month and that also varies from state to state and country to country which also sucks and you wind the clock back again and our when he done so you lose now and again out the end okay so who was the who is the nutter that came up this idea was actually credited originally although I'm sure someone else, this idea well before this just wasn't documented arm was originally credited to Benjamin Franklin but the funny thing is nothing ever came of it there was no ever formal our proposals actually implemented it was like what you know if we if we did this then you know that would be cool and never actually happens so I think that Benjamin Franklin had been famous for a whole host of other reasons arm that I think are well understood that no one would ever know but bottom line is he was first credited to him nothing ever actually came of it until hundred and 23 years later and that was a button when a British man by the name of William Willits tried several times to get what's recognises the first official attempt to introduce daylight saving into law in Britain but after eight years of failing to do so he unfortunately passed away and dumb his efforts unfortunately our stop there now the funny thing is that it was formally introduced by Germany and was introduced on 30th of April 1916 that was obvious in the middle of World War I as a method of conserving fuel and they shifted it not by one hour two hours and the interesting part is that not long after that is in my only are things about for five months later Mike that not long afterwards arm England adopted mind you said most of Europe and even the next year even you are America adopted actually labelled in 1918 to make sense of people did months later in your approach is war going on what you have the whole point was that they saw value in doing it so it's like he was William Willits try to convince people hey go were run we should shift the clocks to make it and you give us more leisure time which is more his angle and less of the energy-saving angle and then you're in the thick of the war and someone says you pay for the war effort never like it was to whelming trust the Germans think about visions in this share well that's true but what's what's interesting and I will get to this and it is is whether or not there was much again but that was the perception perception becomes reality that's is one of those things being okay so the US right so the US adopted it in 1918 and that was pretty much after the war or the very talented arm and are so Europe followed including Russia and the problem was that it was so unpopular it was repealed the following year was repealed it was a federal law and was repealed at a federal level the following year but because it was left to the states to decide is in the individual states to decide on in America some states chose to stick with it in an and even some bigger cities if you can imagine that so for example New York stuck with it as a city so New York was on our Sunday I saving time but most the other surrounding area wasn't easy in this sense crazy to us right now you know which you remember back in those days arm the telegraph was really down the telephone were all yellow very new and very rare arm and there wasn't yet have satellite offices you won't try to synchronise different time zones even outside between cities there was a hell of a lot going on because a lot of commuting Ryton and most people still had horses and buggies right or in automobiles want a big thing and no doubt still too expensive so it was a very different atmosphere so seems crazy to us that just a city which used to keep it and yet that's exactly what happened to anyway ago however the US reintroduced it are between 1942 and 1945 oddly enough the Second World War so again the push came from the fact of Fiona fuel savings and it was a year-round measure wasn't a summer it was all year round and was known as wartime are literally like not not summertime knockdown savings I was called wartime which is a very serious sound to it but if that the worst part about was that arm there were a lot of states and cities that remembered what it was like in 1918 and dug their heels in and said not when I do so even though it was mandated that people would do it a lot of states didn't do it so you just had this absolute nightmare where you had no idea what time it was if you are going between states he had no idea some states would some stage wouldn't and they would change whatever felt like it and you just wouldn't know so that this to me is insane even more insane than we got now so anyway okay so the UK they stuck with it to live generally speaking are generally speaking is that the first decade or so after the First World War it was very patchy so for other what one thing I read about was that people did the tide times refused to adopt it because their parents they they were saying that arm the other tides are governed by the sun so we will keep to the real time thank you and I could just not speak to them in the hands on hips saying I think so arm focus their livelihoods a lot of those instances were judged by the tide so it makes sense like generation assuming there was also fish trade absolutely they will make sense as an HV judging their time by that the incidence is not judged by the sun is judged by the tide and their work is also judged by the tides of these two things kind of makes sense to go hand-in-hand absolutely and it states that the whole of the whole agrarian angle right because you you go out for the sun comes up you come out when the sun is coming up generally left on the fishermen I think that's how works of fussing deadliest catch so apparently know everything about fishing are let you know hey arm a hammer scrap fishing and whatever yes so you are absolutely right and and the whole the pushback from the farming community was was huge because there is no advantage for a farmer at all they still have to work when the sun is up it's just now that if they're delivering produce everywhere start an hour earlier so they're like greats now gotta get up an hour early and automation mind my chores are done in less fun milking cows or catching a fish site to be back to the market with my fresh produce an hour earlier because the city clowns want to spend more time jogging in the evening so there's a lot of that pushback a lot of a lot of hostility so I think arm the UK struggled there for a while but when I got to World War II they did the same thing that the US did arm and eight but that while not exactly the same thing they push the clocks to get ahead one hour in the wintertime and two hours in the summertime so again subtly different from the US but they still sort of adopted that you can see what is going right this is just a recipe for insanity everyone make up their own mind about when adopted housing and adopted this is no uniformity to it and it all seems to be driven by this push for its it's more it's cheaper this energy savings so okay before we only further I just like to take a minute to talk about our first sponsor audible audible is a leading provider of premium spoken audio information and entertainment and allows listeners to choose the audio versions of their favourite books why would you want to do this so many I think so many of our day-to-day activities you need your eyes on the job so when is a book you really want to read you so busy with other things you just use can't find time to write a busy and after audiobooks come in it's much easier to multitask when you're listening to music upon cast audiobooks when you're driving doing housework yardwork audible you can still read your favourite book and you don't miss out it's really cool actually you can buy books individually I can sign up for the audible listener program which gives you book credits each month for a low monthly fee you can download your audiobook to PC automatically windows phone android or your Apple iOS device and you listen to wherever you are any firstly I'm a huge Douglas Adams fan of red always books so I thought now let's have a look and audible and so they got and why found is that there were 19 audiobooks in their libraries including all hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy books are my two favourites are the tutor gently books as well as to Doctor Who episodes he was involved with including the unfinished are shader episode and it was actually arm for those that know little bit about others that was the basis for the first of gently book and the best part though is that some of the books are actually read by Douglas Adams himself and I'd never and never heard Douglas Adams arm actually before and listening to that was just awesome Simon listening to Dirk gently solicited Detective agency and it is fantastic read by Douglas Adams but if you're not into listening to the original author because some people say model authors make the best narrators so there are also books on that same books are but there read by different narrator suspending other options and in my case for example arm the other gently book the long dark teatime of the soul was are read by Harry Enfield and our friend on the don't know those that don't know him he played Dermot in men behaving badly that's for those that remember that show may be showing my age that anyway so there's lots to choose from to have any audible books that you've done that you read Mike you in I I've been an audible customer since 2007 round and I think that I've actually read some year so I would also like to recommend so I have two recommendations now the hitchhikers guide books arm the first one the original the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy there is a narration by Stephen Fry which is an audible which is incredible Stephen Fry is incredible but I would like to go back to the third book playable on audible and it's one I have listened to multiple times as could the second coming of Steve jobs the unabridged version arm this book is published in 2000 so it's not the most recent of Steve jobs history this by underachievement and it goes back and it sells a lot of his early story if you've seen part of Silicon Valley is all that story but a lot of Pixar stuff as well and it talks about the Toy Story movie and a bunch of things happen around that time and it even though it is fairly one complete version of Steve jobs his whole history ranks it ends 14 years ago in my opinion is miles better than the official water others can book arm so the second coming Steve jobs I highly recommend it the unabridged version is just just diminish I have a hours long significant get value for money and really really great awesome cool after going to actually sounds really good so female audible audible is that they have books and business classics arm erotica and sexuality are efficient history piano romance with streets and thrillers sci-fi fantasy self-development kids young adult and lots more over hundred and 50,000 titles pretty much every genre you can find looking for some right now you get a free audiobook and a 30 day trial by signing make sure you use a specific URL audible view free audiobook like to personally thank audible for sponsoring pragmatic okay so the next thing I want to discreetly our talk about is the reaction at the time for daylight saving and I found a an article you there's a few websites on the Internet where they scan in old newspapers and they do some OCR on them optical character recognition and you basically get a snapshot as to what it was like going to go the library anymore the microfiche and the syllable do dad's of people know one talk about arm anyway hope you and I do is talk and you share your Arm as well that might microfiche another day and no it doesn't swim not a fish okay to film like it's only negative yet you think and think of microfilm but it's more like arm the card sizes varied of course but it was what they did is that they took the full size and they would shrink it down onto a small clear piece of plastic like a lack of transparency and you were loaded this thing into AER and how describe think of it like a photocopier lead but much smaller and others a hole in the top so it's a lot less like the frame around the outside of the photocopier when you put this thing down of his glass you close the lid and will shine light up through in that light coming through the whole than they would be arm you reprojection televisions have a you have like a magnifying mirror on the back and so that the screen shoots up onto the magnifying mirror and that reflects onto the main screen in front of you wishing and makes it look much larger and that's exactly what this thing does is a large magnifying glass essentially and right in front of you then you've got text and frankly Jack depend on the age of the microfiche are film that was reasonably good quality art was generally blue are sometimes black and are yet these things were and are they fit like for five pages 6 pages whatever eight pages of a newspaper on there so you could look at an entire newspaper in a few slides microfiche to leave the appeal is obvious they are they sort of stay still a lot of things on and when I was studying at university when just before was that was 93 think 94 anyway point is that arm that was before computers really taken off they had computers in the library and they were just starting on their arm their decimal though bring the Dewey Decimal system into the library for searching are into the computers but some year was he was not there yet so we are still a lot of things are microfiche's anyway what I've done is done the modern equivalent might have done a Google are Google books whatever scanning all these things and I found a clip from in 1916 are Australian newspaper article and I love reading old papers because that the way journalism was done back then was very different and I think in a lot of ways frankly better arm that so anyway are the language they use is is is really quite when you think back to what it was like 100 years ago is anyway and that that I've linked to this and show no signs I find it fascinating that living on the history and stuff maybe it isn't the it's called pulling up putting the clock saving artificial light was the title so like that saving artificial light anyway and what does it still explains the language of the day how it helps the industrial classes and gives an insight into the thinking time that the backplane history many home still had gas lighting but the electric light as they called it doing" the electric light was very widely used according to the article so it was a point in history where electricity was sort of becoming more popular mainly for safety reasons because an and because gas was you then more was was more expensive are course back then there were very few electric appliances so anyone watches Downton Abbey arm I do note that if you watch that are not IAI watcher because my wife watches that hands of anyone who does that anyway so the point is Downton Abbey sort of get this idea the chronology when they get some of the electric appliances and so on are around that time. So electric appliances were still very rare most healing was in fireplace was with fireplaces using coal or wood central heating was rare and only the really really only the richest people businesses would have it back in those days so the point of saving energy are the whole drive behind Germany's reason for doing on Australia's reason for adopting US Europe UK everywhere was that it would save energy when it was saving energy all the thing you must saving was energy being used to turn on lights so the argument goes like this if you are waking up are in summertime and is in it without daylight saving and the sun is already up you unite to get up at five in the morning just as the sun is up because you have to be at work until 9 o'clock or 8 o'clock so you'll wake up at 630 in the morning or seven the morning because back in those days towns a much smaller commuting times much shorter so why would you wake up at stupid o'clock when you think you could sleep in till 630 solicitor sun comes up at five and close down our site sometimes of five and you get up at 630 is one half hours there about of sunlight that you're sleeping through some of my time you would then have the lights on the next hour and 1/2 assuming everyone sleeps an average same amount of time each night which is not true but let's assume an average that they do 6 to 9 hours on average the average person the average household in the industrial classes arm that actually have a lot have lighting in the houses and candles are ago noticed the difference I suppose you could say maybe the seven the candle budget but anyhow the point is that that extra hour of daylight is more useful the end of the day for August 88 9 o'clock at night before we go to sleep because it's dark by then but if you shift the sunlight then you don't need to have lights on until you go to sleep as we go to sleep is when the sun is going down just the whole idea but that's really when you think about it quite a niche situation and the reason it's niche is because think about the life the first thing came on I was when I was doing research on this anything above me for years is how the hell does that account for street lighting because streetlight is always on at night because people need to get around and see whether going so the streetlights always go beyond so it doesn't matter if you push daylight or not unless you turn off your streetlights during the night which most most cities don't do now and didn't do then arm them out is no gain there and that actually consumes quite a lot of illiteracy or more than people think so that was the whole idea of conserving gas conserving electricity go for the war effort RRR and as a secondary benefit it was gonna give people more time in the evening so that's the whole reason that people that anyway to daylight saving as we know it's today at least in the United States and I certify I picked the US because well first of all arm yellow well is there a good example it was brought in in 1966 it was called the uniform time act and it was an attempt to bring all the states into alignment and it was not mostly successful but it was tweaked multiple times after that was until the mid-80s where they finally had what we essentially have now but as you pointed out Mike though recently I think shifted again slightly I think you are saying I'm gonna doublecheck with John because I feel like I think on this show on as opposed to ensure that the benign dawn of the wrong okay well while all that you check that more will will circle back to that in a minute then but as I understand it anyway every place in the world is free to do whatever heck they want arm's and and they will so in my country for example Queensland does not actually have daylight saving we did for a period of time out we trialed it for a few years there was a massive backlash, there was an American 1918 1919 and they repealed so state-by-state basis are there are several states in Australia don't observe it and there are a few in the US I believe that don't or North America either don't but arm and that the amount will vary slightly in acyl magazine. John is in 2007 right arm in 2007 the change the date so as of that year daylight savings time began on the second Sunday of March and ends on the first Sunday of November this change results in a adenosine's home. That's five or four weeks longer than previously to fix me greatly while 0900 always find that the problem is that because it's arbitrary so you think that is the main crux of my issue is gas that is late will do whenever it doesn't really matter. This was exactly that and it is exactly that this is exactly the problem so it we will look at the whole energy point of view arm and honestly I isolate let's keep let's keep exploring arm of this will be long about where it's ideal and worried where does work were doesn't work and why because is going to bug me for so long is that our daylight saving was always favoured by the southern states arm for us the ones that are further from the equator whereas North northern hemisphere causative more favoured by northern states up to a point the question is why is that the case so if you are living between the tropics or living our close to the polls the idea is less useful and if you think about the duration of the day in those locations it it starts to make more sense because if you're close to the equator you basically get same our sunlight or year-round it varies by plus mice in our two most if that were I grew up it was really a variance of only an hour and a bit hour and 1/2 Manx that if you only equator it's no it's like half an hour at the extremes something like that it's not a massive difference so pushing the time back what exactly are you gaining you not gaining anything really extra the end of the day you've got this common constant temperature essentially you know you don't really have much of a winter because were I grew up our winter was very very mild if you can give dad called a winter never went negative you know Snow know nothing over whether tropics so no and living in Rockhampton was very difficult when when they brought out daylight saving because the hottest part of the days cease to in the afternoon and pushed the hottest part of the day in go in funny time dancing time arm to that tooth three in the afternoon and it meant that during school time the kids were all at school during an evening's more extended hot part of the day so it was sort of a bit weird for us and that was some only half the problem scenario let's go the other extreme are seen living in the polls living in the polls I don't mean UNESCO Montenegro AAI me I guess you could be but let's assume your I lived in Calgary for 2 1/2 years and Calgary is arm you know it not not decide two days drive pretty solid driving north to get to the Arctic Circle so it's it's close but this is as close of the most yet but it's not it's not you as you this is still not okay you can't do that driving from London arm I guess you'd need to get the channel across and and sound you if it's a long way it's a much longer way to get the Arctic Circle from your RCI the point is that in the days in summer are very very long because of the angle of the earth the sun came out at something like four in the morning and set at 10 o'clock at night so in summertime so the thing is well do I really need another hour do I need to go to sleep at 11 acknowledge I need sunlight 11 o'clock at night my actually use that 10 to 11 sons up let's go, not what is really holding me back with the fact that there was something that's exactly what I go out work in my town at 10 o'clock at night let's go is unbelievably isolated on now the option is therefore your wiping a greater count the number of people taking advantage of that are unbelievable but you know the flipside of that is okay well great now I'm on waking up at 3 AM with the sun as opposed to 4 AM with the sun know because when I was living over there because I'm I'm I got the tropics which means that my eyes were Sue Lacey sunlight unlike I'm awake you that's it and since I've had children I become sleep deprived I've learned to sleep when I can as less of a problem but when ice was younger I was always upset someone hit my eyelids did this the way unwired I blame the tropics I don't know if that's really the cause but whatever so my point is arm the point is that I blacked out the window so I see got some are masking tape and some black cloth and I did a double layer of it around the windows just to stop just of the bedroom so that sunlight would not get in during summer because I was barely sleeping I was going through four hours of sleep it was so messed up our medicals are taken down to the winter in a look outside cycle time to go to work on Stark going over workouts dark as in winter seller extreme right your son doesn't come up till 830 in the morning sun and the sun goes down at 334 in the afternoon so it's dark and dreary anyway with my back I like the snow for a while better when your DIC calf a thousand times the novelty wears off anyhow okay so it makes no sense at that point because we just doesn't the young lacking for sunlight in the middle of summer the other thing that different courses as you go further north or south away from the equator is that the time and I put this the rate of change of the number of hours in a day increases so if I'm living in the at me on the equator I might gain or lose a fraction of a minute with every passing day pending on which direction you know the seasons are going so whereas if I'm at a high latitude are largely logic I always get them mixed up anyway they are closer to the pole in your arm it's a much much bigger change that you could lose like five minutes a day as you go from day to day so the days get longer by big big chunks all the time which means as you go your obviously easy-going from a shift of having six hours of sunlight to having no was 18 hours of sunlight over space of six months so obviously each step every day is gonna be bigger and this leads to the next problem that you're your sort of thing complain about which is when you start and stop daylight saving because it's gonna vary depending upon where you are relative to the equator and relative to the polls so no matter what date you choose someone's gonna be Pearcy some of you say hang on notice as is it either too early or it's too late so your 1 o'clock for your much higher much close to the polls on cycle the sun is not even close to up yet and I work in the dark as a daylight saving and then within a few weeks you good younger we can in gonna work on sunlight and I mean it's a it it's not you because states are our Alberto is a good example but there is also other states and the other states army in America like go by California is a good example it's quite a hot North and South Florida I'm very very large state so gave a wide variance in daylight hours from the border with Mexico up to arm the border with our Oregon this so that client that's quite a decent distance now Queensland got the same problem so we on our southern border which I'm close to the southern border all out to Cape York which is really not that far from the equator that summer but see Brisbane to Kansas what 1700 km and acts by road so I know that Tommy had it's a long way okay very long way more and Alberto had the same problem so does British Columbia all the states are all the psychical provinces in Canada have the same problem so that you can't you intend to set one daylight saving time zone for that one state so it's stuck without one state right but all points in that state have a different time when the sun comes up so you it's a compromise even when you begin unless you then split that states other than to say what we do want to split the state into two pieces and that's been what they were arguing in Queensland for longer times I will will draw a line at our wide and about 400 K is one of 300 miles north of here any north of that can stick with normal time and South East will go daylight saving and then of course I: our estate divided and now so what about one my clock forward and back every time ago between Brisbane and Rockhampton are medicating me go it becomes difficult to manage so people then shy away from that so is okay will stick with a state-based time zone so that means you always stuck with a compromise so what are some people like this and it comes back down to where the majority of people are ands and that that really is that the bottom line with all this aware of the majority of people and is a band around the world the northern and southern hemisphere where your either away between the tropics and the Arctic Circle but nowhere near the article maybe about halfway to the Arctic Circle whereas ideal and the funny thing is that the majority of the world's population live in those bands alas therefore this would statistically seem to be we have it mainly because the majority of people like it because the majority of people it works and how with the people of Dyer doesn't work for seems to be one of the reasons I was stuck with it so this look more to say but before we do that I just like to quickly talk about our second sponsor and that is none other than wet from studios selling a business or an app is a lot like selling a house you can take a huge amount of time and money redecorating and bring the house up to scratch modernising it you can take great photos build a wonderful big website showing off the house but there's one missing piece that can stop buyers from ever walking through the front door and that's curb appeal the same goes don't judge a book by its cover but frankly when you're dealing with human nature most of us do and people do the same thing with business logos app icons and well books and these days e-books without some curb appeal people won't usually take the time to check out what's inside and all of your hard work and go unnoticed now you might have seen recently that show got a fresh coat of paint the new artwork is the result of working with Aaron over at wet from studios and I can't recommend it highly enough remember also Mike on the drafts had for the first couple of years Aaron design that he also designed the branding for vital minimal and lots of other recognisable apps businesses and websites including I think perhaps Mike some of yours yes I used to run a constant network of 70 dB is still the website is still alive because in too lazy to take down 70 and I worked with Aaron over the whole time the sleep was around one he created the gorgeous logo 70 dB logo for all of the short works were Warrens to Mike the main thing I can say about Aaron Menke the proprietor of wet from studios bar maybe one or two of maybe that maybe 15 to 20 things I had him they commissioned him to to work on before a maybe only had to give them feedback like now more than one line may be two of them Arent just completely understood what I wanted and delivered it and a lot of the time arm I would not even fill out his regular briefing form I would just bug him we have like 40 M's on Twitter don't do this by the US as a traveller to do business and then he would produce a me a stellar piece of artwork which to this day all my shows and 5 x 5 arm all the ones I brought over are we only had Jory just adapt the art to fit the 5 x 5 style because I love Aaron's vision so much for the shows that I didn't want them to change that differently because they helped create the identity arm of my forecasts because Aaron is also a host of the fantastic homework but cost which should come to absolutely thanks for reminding me about it is a good point Cassie should listen to that and all bouts are are working from home and out tips and tricks and it's really interesting so and I have to say your your experience mirrors mine he took Aaron took the time to understand exactly what I was looking for before he started and his first the first thing he sent me is 90% of what I wanted and straight out of locksmith it was just blew me away he cheaply took the time to understand what I wanted and and he delivered and he was in was fast so I can't recommend enough so anyway as a special offer just the pragmatic listeners Aaron is offering his at icon and logo design service normally goes for well normally goes $800 but you know what he's doing at half price that's 50% off now that's amazing deal to get access to a professional apparent calibre and experience is plenty of other graphics designers out there that can give you something good but Aaron will take the time to make you something great visit wet from to get in touch and take advantage of this amazing deal while it lasts a big thank you to work from studios for sponsoring pragmatic so the whole idea of energy-saving is something that I want to just dig into little bit more because they said they in the beginning there was in a save energy well how does that apply these days okay now we've got all sorts of appliances we've got refrigeration we've got our air-conditioning is a big one single all these additional loads and you people come home from work that in the TV on they boil the cup of coffee and she may be dental, coffee at five in the afternoon on some people might point is I think a lot of people listen to the show probably do this he may be right Mike/yes it's true okay so the idea the original idea was that it would there was safe it would save energy but the funny thing is in a modern application arm isn't really relevant so there've been a lot of studies and i.e. I was drowning in studies trying to pick out the best one is the most arm honestly the ones that I had the thought were the best of my statistically significant the truth is that they're all conflicting some hated some like it the pattern that I can see is it all depends on where the state is they did the analysis and its position relative to the equator and to the polls so as I sort of indicated previously you will get the biggest advantage in that ideal zone and of those that got the biggest advantage the you have to consider the problem from two angles and I'm gonna refer back to episode to the battery problem at 20 minutes 30 seconds in I talked about peak lopping so rather than rehash what peak lopping is on and assume that everyone pauses the podcast) lessons or our dedicated listeners and know exactly what I said at 20 minutes and 30 seconds episode to maybe they won't remember or quick refresher than fine fine I've convinced myself frequent so you got baseload and you got peak lopping baseload is is always on all the time and constitutes maybe 60 to 70% of the trustee available on the grid and the rest of it goes up and down during the day based on demand that is what I refer to is that the peak lopping and that is what varies the most so what you have any you have more expensive but are more expensive ways of exaggerating a Trinity but those ways are fast acting internal monotone off very quickly rose baseload takes days or weeks to start-up and shutdown although it is much cheaper so the biggest gains in daylight saving are actually do with peak lopping it because the same net amount of energy is still going to be spent is the thing that that they say we save on lighting it's it's minuscule if you look at the overall effect on baseload is only half a percent maybe 1% at most depending on the study choose to read and luminous hundreds so really the lighting impact is negligible, you could say okay .5% of 10 GW is still a fair bit of juice but you realistically is it worth dealing with all the BS of daylight saving just to get .5% if albatross originality lightbulbs but you know whatever so okay that the reason that it's a bigger impact on peak lopping of the region of 3 to 5% improvement is isn't because the peak lopping. This is the PMP so busy I am peak in the morning and then as the PM peak in the afternoon when you get home from work so if you're pushing it off than what you're actually doing is you're prolonging the amount of time that people are at work when I get home it then flattens out that peak so that our or two hours gets pushed out to the right so previously the PMP could be higher because Erin would get home at a specific time of day with a limited amount of daylight left they would in essence cram certain activities in whereas if you push it out further to the right it flattens the top of that PM peak and in peak lopping is all about reducing how much peak lopping you have to run how many of these gas gas-fired generators for example you need to run well you don't have to run as many now because the peak is much much lower when you've got daylight saving in that ideal band so they recognise that there is a saving on peak lopping costs to between 3 to 5% so but if you look at the overall baseload it's it's only half percent to 1 at most and again even those percentages are hotly debated I found several articles where they were the other way saying that you know it was a detriment it was actually you are consuming more energy but honestly arm those ones relevant in the flaky side so you can link to them so anyway have a look through the notes as a whole bunch of links and if you're interested about some stats but honestly arm the improvement in daylight saving energy is barely measurable but it is measurable but your results will vary wildly depending upon where you are relative to the equator and the polls so I have some statistics this is based on the change of adenosine's time in America in 2007 it was proposed as part of the energy policy act of 2005 and then into thousand seven under section 110 of the act of the US Department of energy was required to study the impact of the daylight seems time extension arm no later than nine months after the change to perfect the report was released in October 2008 and it reported a nationwide lecture with electricity savings of 0.03% for the year 2007 there and then another one which is quite interesting was also added in the University of California at Santa Barbara and they undertook a study in 2006 after Indiana adopted daylight savings time arm and that she saw an increase in energy consumption in Indiana by an average of 1% GII read I read both of those in a net in that in the otherwise fascinated think where Indiana is arm relative to the seat it's gonna get diminishing benefit so that I find the whole concept of daylight saving as in the excuse for a saving energy is I think flimsy at best and honestly where was originally proposed I don't actually know if it's saved any energy at all and any measurable way for the war I think they did it because it was my RRR rationing now we can ration sunlight or something I know and I was ration energy I think was one of those that it's sold because there was an idea that it would as opposed to a measurable impact because most things until you try it you don't know now we have 100 years or well maybe not hundred years but we have a lot of history on and off over the last hundred years and the statistics simply don't back up the assertion that daylight saving saves energy into status don't back it up so siding on about that one is pretty well you that that excuse but so I got to thinking okay what if we were to go out we were to optimise this so let's think about how we could optimise for energy consumption so let less completely rethink daylight saving just the helmet one night as well one winner shift midday dynamically throughout the year based on a formula that takes into account your latitude as well is the time of year to get maximum cost savings for your local area now that would be the ideal way of optimising for energy consumption because that would then be a big problem in because associate previously in a connected world are you did never work because businesses would be a coordinate meeting times you never work a local level and when you realise that that is the ultimate optimisation of daylight saving that's when you step back and realise hang on I've just remodelled an agrarian society again because that's the most efficient use of energy is to follow the sunlight when the sun is up as the sunlight is free so to sort of wrap this up as much I will just add is daylight saving is a consequence of our rigid industrialised and dare I say unnatural move away from how the planet we live on works as an attempt to try and optimise our insistence that we can do what we want when we want wherever we are without relying on the sun to dictate to us and that's you know that's never gonna be something that we can optimise for energy because by definition when going against the elements were going against free energy from the sun is not about tree hugging it's just about it's not gonna ever be optimal no matter what you choose with daylight saving and that's the problem product saving is a one size fits all solution and many past world it just doesn't make sense and it has a nearly immeasurable benefit so for those people that enjoy having that extra hour of sunlight because it works for you thumbs up in a pat on the back am happy for you be aware though that there is still a lot of people around the world where that is not a consideration of any interest or of any benefit so there that's that's what's overlap and our final thoughts and unlike just get rid of it will while honestly I think they should it be to simply wouldn't dinner I think so this is it is an element of that list if we going to do it if we have to do this it was decided we going to do this is to standardise a time because you clearly establish the actually doesn't matter when it is your so just pick a time and everyone can do it except consider so if you like to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter and John Geagea are the same on and are pleased to get my site take if you'd like to send an email are you consent to are you can follow are at pragmatic show on Twitter or at pragmatic on to seashell announcements and other related materials I'd like to say final thank you to our both of our sponsors are firstly wet from studios for sponsoring pragmatic if you're looking to add some curb appeal to your product or company remember to specifically visit this URL went from to get a great result at half the normal price and also a big thank you to audible for sponsoring a show again please make sure you use the URL audible pod for your free audiobook is a link in the show notes to have both those URLs take you right there if I been talking to quickly fear at URLs down you can find Mike on Twitter and I am Mike I am waiting and you can also find his work and five – hurling also of course a very big thank you to Mike Hurley for joining me on this are the year I guess for the wannabe discrepancies in two of the pragmatic so thanks for coming on Mike absolute person having any type gracelessly everyone�
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Myke Hurley

Myke Hurley

Myke co-runs the popular podcast network and also writes occasionally at his blog.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.