Pragmatic 22: Core Business

2 June, 2014


Understanding what is and isn’t your core business is critical for success. Horace Dediu joins John Chidgey for a very special episode of Pragmatic where for once John doesn’t do all the talking!

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic as a weekly discussion show, playing the practical application of technology exploring the real-world trade-offs with great ideas are transformed into products and services that change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode sponsored by Winthrop studios visit wet from to get in touch and take advantage of a special offer for them and icon and logo design service exclusively for pragmatic business will talk more about them during the show on your host John Geagea and I joined today by special guest Mr Horace debt you how are you Horace I am very well name on the other side of the world but otherwise it we will work with having a suitable called dreary candidate but it's so this is really selling their you are filling is not a place that that prides itself on its way there is shell with you if you want you if you'll make it into a selling point you might as well complain about itself just run arm notes it's it's Sundays are lovely especially in the summer but that wasn't but the cells I'm just thinking in my mind that urine the exact opposite type of climate and season yet under yet mum it's just very mild I love the winters here its staff are currently about 18░C and that's it for in the morning so you it's just lovely I love this time of year but so I lived in Calgary far more north similar kind of arm latitude to our where you are and are yet the winters aren't necessarily the best but the summers are lovely so anyway Calgary near Canada the alarm so are the holdings arm. I am just wanted to work if you want specifically to talk about a topic that has fascinated me over the years and I think with your background and experience it is you might have some interesting things to add about it and that the topic is our core business and I know that means different things to different people but what why try to do is try to look at this from the angle of arm if I'm an individual and I want us and set out on an endeavour might be a software developer I want be a design of some kind of 12 out engineering I want to do statistical analysis whatever arm if that becomes something bigger and I need to extend what I'm doing how I stay focused on my core business and one of the things that I think is fascinating is look at how companies grow they start off with 1 to 3 people and they grow and grow arm while the successful ones do anyway and is you have to start making tough choices so is one of the things that I want to talk about today so so interesting what you really are good person interview but also a good I am a good person there so here's the reason why one one thing is that when you typed individuals have gone through and then for our Ben then sought social speak in the trenches and they they explain the world through their experience but they've had typically very narrow experience of the deep one and they they will tell you what the experience and some people take that and say what packages do the same way I would I do would be successful usually the pizza successful people get interviewed arm the problem is that you need to not to have when you're in the trenches you not have the view of this of the overall battlefield the overall campaign your role arm strategic review and so in some ways that that experience may be too narrow for most people and sell arm and saw that that the challenge is that you like a lot of business books amount to a person telling the story of how they see things in their their anecdotes but it isn't it's like asking a scientist to explain the world based on their wants in the home doesn't mean it that you're going to get a good sample the the the problem is that also issued if you are someone who is a generalist one how to do things they tend to look at it from a very high level point of view and there are the armchair strategists that there there are going to see things theoretically and sometimes theories can be very good you don't need to if you have a great theory like for example the theory of gravity that explains why things file you don't need to arm you don't need to have that experience of filing to prove it and and sell soul there are there are questions about how good a certain theory might be arm in business is also the question generally is. Here's how I would answer this the the path from small to large it is a very very very difficult path arm because in Europe you going to encounter for yourself splits in the role that that that might be guided by deed outdoor or advanced that are just just imminent so you have to make a decision at that point and and so there is there is there is in the luxury usually of sort of thinking what the are long-term you can have a customer come to you and say here's agreed you here I will buy this from your minimum place large order and rarely do you stop and think is this a good customer to have long-term your soul usual happy to have a customer in the first place and you might see while there's there is theirs there is nothing wrong with with with taking on a big order and arm but yet you'll see how much that will will the ownership will be will be arm are you think you all and something that they on something back and sell your customers will become increasingly are things that that control you and sell so here's where that's super pragmatic thinkers like about making making the right decision in a given moment given the fact you have is a lot of business of a are a bigger brighter question about strategy and owner of the strategy strategy gets a bad through our bad reputation because it supplied later said that the radical manner on Brodsky but actually in it if it can be applied by small companies and in very narrow context so the strategy could be strategy decision for a small company would be do I want to have large customer to do and will have small customers do we want to have arm are certain even investor versus another type of industrial because money to want to take because that money and ends up controlling a lot of your decision-making so I'll give you what I started doing what I'm doing now which is our Eastern colleges are blogging our venture I had that I have this you ask most of you I will have our consulting work advertising revenue or or do I want to refuse both of those in and carry on doing essentially free work because it's actually felt that sell that that this is the type of sanding now if you're younger and generally very hungry you tend to accept whatever is biggest in terms of revenue absolute arm and and and you are because you stop rubbing but it's like saying again the difference between accepting a free meal when you're starving and deciding to be picky because your health would be better off by eating a proper meal or a healthy meal or arm arm is no other nutritious food so so I can give you specific advice but I can tell you that that inmate in my way of thinking that the Whitfield rate was more important to me at that point in my life than doing what look great on paper and a consulting type of work I tried a little bit but I have the luxury of being able to also say you know I enjoy that other stuff one minute do that and it turned out that the stuff that I enjoyed doing had a brighter scope eventually naturally probably lead to a better better business called "arm meaning that it led me to doing things like podcasting publishing doing more things like speaking events coming and doing things like error which is my old way on our own mix of education and an deed data presentation arm and and ultimately likely to yet more or things under that I can arm our account envisioning where it had become a consultant it's likely that it would have ended up with water to large clients taking all my time and I would have done any publishing anymore publishing release without much enthusiasm and therefore the quality of the product would have gone downhill and it was new opportunity that eventually came my way would have never shown up sell short media would have felt are some people have a predisposition to be good consultants but I was pretty bad one because I really would have spent my pain time daydreaming of the leader that I could give away for free instead arm and the second the second alternative imagine which was being arm arm arm was at the consultant or or an advertising driven business so that at the time you know there were a couple of companies in 2011 Rachelle Danny Glover were being acquired by by larger blogging aggregators so all you had Mashable and and and the bridge was spun but before the bridge there was there was our I guess that there were a couple of big brand names that were required arm Huffington Post was a huge phenomenon on and there were things like go Gizmodo and an arm and and and in a lot of people soberly to you what you would need to become a big brand and in and an online in your business interest I had to do more stuff with with the time the heart area will was actually the financial advice area that things like seeking Alpha and blogging sites where were people gave each other stuff that essentially and Ansell that was really pulling at me because here is an opportunity to do exactly where I was doing things working in my own environment whole arm so would be for a bottom absence even if the bosses are is as a client but it would be but it would but you would be still a sleeve or a elaborate word but each would be having to observe the the dynamics of of the advertising business which which you will quickly realise involves actually getting a lot of page views or getting a lot of arm arm measurements rate that are appropriate you will have appeased the bell and in my notice is that again if you've chased down that road of Peter view is you end up actually day building the quality of your content because it was a simple test to bag you could just make a sensational article I and I notice that even when I when I allowed myself a little bit sensationalist sometimes arm by mistake was simply because I wrote the wrong headline elevator headline Lake arm did you write headline? At the end of year one was like why was so Ansell fired and also because the CEO had just been changed and I would rate the question but it was a rhetorical question because I want to answer in a certain way the bills are getting a huge number. And people began to consider in the in the comment section how essentially the article didn't matter as an opportunity for people to actually have a have essentially a bar fight near and arm and and so you just acted as the bar and provided a forum for that to happen so site I really had left me with a bad teeth may realise the Dragon toes would love this and I was then I the other thing that I realise was that if you were to use IT reach out to the CEO of a company that was the ballot in the business that there is no Huffington Post or something like that you realise very quickly also I had some communication with some of the riders in those groups and I realisation that actually the Raiders and the people create the kind that are actually very low down the whole structure of their Ansell it that's in the way that the reflection of the fact that the content didn't matter because it was actually the least valuable component of the business of the people in charge will really focus on the advertising and the aggregation of eyeballs and and dealmaking with our distribution deals and there are only able to get the quill from typing to example of the other fairly good bargains like for example the doorbell Midwest was our is still at at fortunately in any way I could tell me how the how the other business work and and what mattered in the business and and the writers would delete I would see least valuable but many times the interim to people would almost eat anything at all to the P structure of a fully love articles we are helping to build whatever we looked out the article and use like two dollars of whatever ridiculous amount of money to be paid for the very thing people came to read shark me alive that the photo was as you're saying sorry to adjust quickly but some the point is their core business therefore is driven more by advertising that is actually by the content that they create yet never thought it was this visit needs to be the points that that e consulting and I understand that fundamentally but also realise that that your time unit you end up with having really the same types of relationship that you have your your employer for a large company but it just it what you did there is not there is a boundary of of current employment contract between units different from a consultant contract that business also was unpalatable to me sell so so so I just know I'm not freeze my my wear away due or she's now that road because it doesn't feel right to me that there was this point in my life I was at that point in my case and what matters to me is that I live enjoy getting the word out and I want to make the best possible analysis and give it was many people because those people are gonna give me a lot of great feedback and that that that the whole focus became quality number one in terms of output but also creating a quality arm experience or equality forum where people could be frequent could feel comfortable giving back so that she became comments that she became creating an atmosphere of respect mutual respect between present the writer and audience and between, our audience member present and each other Ansell when he realised than that by building up a brand which which people rip your diet was resonant with with with our quality and community then suddenly things started the clack and are in it was instinctive at the beginning of a bill realise what I was doing just doing what felt like all the time we realise that what I realise that it was it was the formula was there that at that you create is best kind as you can you make sure lots of people can get to it you'll don't compromise on on arm you one thing I would do is freezer but wouldn't promote myself I wouldn't in a way our to buy on hormonal webmail flag whatever is appropriate. But I would essentially is what to do while I might would tell people I just wrote some then but I would bang on about it and also build the rule I had in mind was essentially foreign marketing and sales was born ask people to to to reach out or something like that let them come if if they feel compelled to do self and and also your soon realise that if you don't if you don't promote yourself and you do good work that others will promote for you because you like to receive normally knows about this guy discrete staff with what it knows about this privately tell you about the people who are fans of the product will actually become your best sales people is that they will see that no one else is if the DCU actively promoting the nuts they want doing the job market need to do that job is really better at it than I am but if you see that the vacuum of of of of promotion use wants to just do your best because you think that is just the injured and and that's that's one thing by the way arm it's all enjoyable if great work because the people seeing all this is this is crazy great work on promoted it so I can fix it sell armaments that fly at what will actuate with the cold of a freethinking bubble if you do if you do good work and and you promoted and you'll have one one promoter great work and don't promote will have a million promoters Ansell that's another marketing I theory K came up with because of what I was doing and I realised that was working that if I said nothing then I'll get a lot more people to to our step up and said for me and that that's the arm of one other thing above ballot in it that by the way I think is very much personality driven because I actually am uncomfortable promoting anything arm and I just wouldn't do it myself and I just gonna happen away that though I'm a yourself chasing whatever's away were arm so anyway few anecdotes mean thing though I think if I just answer your question as to to do what feels right to you because at some point even very short down the road you'll find out that the doing what doesn't feel great will not be optimal you might think you're making a short-term optimal decision-making the biggest cortical opportunity but in fact it doesn't feel right you will you'll regret and that's that's true that's true the light a lot of you know a lot of episodes of life in choosing for your partner might be and is on arm and and that's that's that's all I have on this talk while you set a hot the things I really wanted to quickly touch on that you mention so thank you it was really very very are an interesting way I had initially thought about a quote from that angle the arm MIA in my own experience I haven't started my own endeavour exactly unless you count this podcast on my website take distortion as being such a thing but it's not how I make a living so I don't think it falls in the same category as a Simcoe's are worse I been more on the corporate side watching corporations and and so on the likes of Boeing and a Nortel and you more recently are some consultancies and so on so my perspective is slightly different but for the majority of our listeners they're not going to be in control of large company so I think everything you've just said is some is probably more relevant to the vast majority of the listeners so are one of things that I want to talk little bit more about was that what wanting to mention was that you made a conscious decision to some change to take your focus away from consulting type of work and not to focus on are that specific area and one of the things that you come across in business is our mission statements and sometimes these mission statements of rubbish but a good good mission statements will say things along those lines or save you I'm going to focus on this specifically and it sounds a bit to me like although it you didn't actually write it down as a mission statement it was essentially still at that guiding direction it was a mission statement that you actually followed and that that drove your focus and drive some of your successes giving us reasonable well it turned out it was a mission I just didn't know it until I was well lying in it and that's the trouble with mission statement is in some way they actually freeze the freeze you into doing that history will arm it I think one mission statement it would be lovely to hear would be we will have will have a clue what our mission is are here because it's not if it is not in it the facetious way they would see may be appropriate more probably late I mission is to learn what what what our mission is arm and and I would be that would be more of a blood rugged vendor to 2 five rate one is that you should be deliberate in your actions how many times you for review Noel United started down the road until you have a plan in the subject line I live their life this way you make a plan when you're 20 and then you execute on arm and arm pain all one follicle but no gimme he he wanted the studies on business and his wife spent the night of the until you worked out with the planners and and you know and she would be the one to review the requirements of the work you're very careful about economic extralegal take the that you'll be on at the unit of irresponsibly here is that Trina fathered you train about is that you realise that whatever plans are made actually that the first time you take a step in the direction of execute the plan that actually learn something in the plan becomes absolutely sure this is a giveaway of militaries will will will do all kinds of planning and wargaming and and and and exercises and then realising the first contact with the enemy mean that all goal is for nothing yielding the one the most common phrases of soldiers a real soldier will tell you is that we entrench religious faith sorts all unit viewers soldier and after some balances we get into all these difficult situations for which we then trained for and and and it would like to believe that the training which they went with such an arduous way for such a long time was exactly would be needed to deal because otherwise why would you do it in a way would you go through this this is this this your painful process of learning obvious and and and and and doing all these exercises are if you really want gonna match apply them Ansell that's the problem in general is that the deliberate plans are are often destroyed by the first contact with the enemy arm and the alternative though is one would you so essentially saying where we can have a can I have a learning plan arm that is very rare because it will never want to admit that it on order doing arm in our in most western cultures even perhaps Eastern ones admitting that you don't know what you're doing is is is is a grosser bowl pile or or admission of of of incompetent arm but but in fact when you look really want to meet successful companies are successful is that the the model along and be stumbled and the meat errors and e-learning or when you look at the ways the scientific process works it is continuous process of experimentation what is an experiment but a failure and dinner are a recast you constantly trying to work it out by by by trial and error and arm that one thing that I would see it in a way wide would be fashionable to have a mission just because some people feel they have no guidance the mission Stephen also forces you sometimes are our rid become more rigid and you need to be getting on the other hand maybe mission statements are things which are thrown away I think more important than the statement there was that the blast year cultural and that's not usually written down cultures of warily fortified the cultural arm a company culture and here is that the thing about culture is that arm it like it is firstly is unwritten secondly it's how it's probably superpowerful and and and it passed along in its it it disseminated between you not between employees in a very very powerful way culture is one of these instruments of society or of stability for humanity or what have you that that is that is astonishingly powerful and this is where leadership is needs to be very careful if you're in a position to make a decision or the people you have to become very conscious of culture arm and all were an ordering and arm when when when you boil leadership down its core elements usually comes down to the leader was able to establish a certain culture arm and so that's why arm that's why AA would say that the what with what you need generally to have the principle that you're always learning still maybe that that horrid rate downloaded but also how far have the notion that you know that arm that there is you and Linda humility aspect of it is that that you need to know all you need to accept that the things things that there are things you don't know and and arm and BCB be careful with with the behaviour you unit your behaviour is in a sad example and and that's gonna probably create all kinds of cultural and consequences one of the things that you product list about our company culture and house passed on from not from a mission statement typically back from you from people to people as they are hired on an as they come come and go from company at one things I've observed which is arm which constrain the focus of the company is the the boom to bust cycle of nature of the of the most industries to the point at which the fuel during a boom cycle you bring a lot of people very quickly and if you don't have goods are a good strong culture in place that doesn't often get disseminated well to all new employees and you get a delusion of the direction of the company where you want to go your call what what the core business is what the core direction is of of of the group that tends to get deluded and dark I find that working in companies during boom cycle boomtime boom the point the point of the site composite in boom art can become more difficult because of that I have ever come across that the situation you the trouble is that you know we are such weak biological creatures that you were attentively easily persuaded by by by our our our our emotions and we are tendency is that when things are good that you have arrogance and then when things are bad that you have panic and am in you know inflexibility and these are opposite to what what I need the world meet regularly the case in point is I want someone really are is in trouble arm of the panic and that's a very strange thing to do rate in the of subspecies or do that arm in subspecies when when when our when an animal is threatened the might freeze the registries up and another bull that actually makes them harder despite by private arm the opposite is is is the union of the animal freaks are runs around and encircle them become actually easier and easier target and this is the weird thing about human behaviour is that often at moments of crisis the need to behave the opposite way of that the weave actually behave in a moment of of of success feels a need to behave the opposite and that the tragedy arm and Ansell we we don't even have a mechanism to 2 are to guide us at all unit that that these are the classic examples will accompany storage to have success vacated arrogance and hubris comes over over them and indeed they they think they're an unbeatable are but in fact usually the times of great successes when you are to be planning that the worst scenario of rate the census this is the feeble of the the the squirrel or whatever these animal 110 story during the store nuts during the summer and the other one would wish really freely eat things and the plan for the winter the other fees by you know hundred and 80░ rates leave gonna try to work it out so that when you when you prosperous your planning for a darker future and when new things of the dark you actually contrarian view arm and and again some people use the contrary method when when when investing in the stock market when everybody is panicking famously it was arm arm Warren Buffett is that you will be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful arm and Ansell this is true in in in many many cases and in business and arm and is very horrid because the problem with business in general even if the individual is is wise in this regard very hard when when the organisation around horror is just soul height up in the motion of the of the moment and their voice will stand alone in and that is why arm are that that is why large organisations have a hard time dealing with with dramatic change because because you you and I have just convinced that the one person even if that person is the CEO the leader they have to somehow arm get by in court Incorporated that's the problem with large companies is that you have to somehow get everybody agreeing input pulling this interaction in this authority do and again this is comes back to culture and whether whether you can infuse in people the rate behaviour so wanted but with back your first question one of the decision points that you have as it will go as a business is whether you preserve a certain organisational structure and a sizeable bit bit mundane but this notion of being in a functional organisational being in a in the divisional organisation or something broken up into some separate sub- businesses and this is a recurrence of the core alike for example when you look at Apple versus other companies is that the internally organised functionally and there yet the very large which is an uncommon combination arm and think that I've had this argument with some people actually suggested that there there it's not causative to say that functional organisations better equipped to deal with dramatic change in shifts that then understood more annual blood arm but at the same time the only deed I have is that it least in the space where Apple is able to succeed and self disrupt Mori more easily because of that the weeds organiser what happen whenever business grows and transitions from small to big that they have to decide Candy maintain a command and control structure and by the way it sounds a little bit 2222 dramatic than candy can control create evil incentives as the rate that the euphemism for command and control arm can excrete the incentives and I'll and motivations that that would work even though everyone is on the site is is and that is in the functional silo arm and I can go on and on about this but you but it it is one of the these are the real issues about managing are the business arm to deal with with technical talent you and what things that you you mentioned is the over two different perspectives of structures organisational structures for business and that is something that I did want to touch on and actually some large rock that up because what I've found is based on my experience is that it seems to me that whatever structure you tend to start with tends to be the one you're stuck with in the long-term it going from 10 years to 20 years and so on out and changing that structure because of because getting all that buying in and driving that that cultural change site no longer for example arm I am trying to keep my particular budget under control now I have a different set of priorities in a different set of reporting that I need two different management manages only to report to and that sort of structural churn in an organisation is consent organisations back significantly and sometimes I think there's a big a huge impact on peoples deserts like outlet let's change our structure to be more like company Bligh however is successful at the moment and you mentioned Apple so they qualify so let's be more like Apple and suddenly everything will work out and I never worries me when people went when organisation say all we have to do is change structure and suddenly everything will be fine bigots of gross simplification you know it's ultra good organisational change is almost as it is some sort of religion that happened the reviewer you agree or they went through this was or is a ritual of Nokia where there was a real every year there are sometimes more often than arm it was announced usually are right around the summer holdings which are in Vilna in July and they are so everybody goes off about a month old in the woods in the countryside are somewhere for a friend that very very neither exaggeration literally that happens and if you're in the office in July it absolutely is the desert that but it its arm if it was such that there would be a summer party and so this was a companywide thing and then everybody would go to some neural organ field were Warren will be a few announcements made usually that the ear canals that were made after the holiday was over so people can enjoy the holidays and that come back and and be a real announced position the specific reviewer and was comical in a way because what weight you need to actually reorganise or often any was aware that the logic of it was that you you you had a week control system overall you couldn't align people and get them to keep working in that direction for a long time in order to in order to get anything done you have to shake things up until sure it's as if you know it you literally you rattle the cage to get the animal agitated and arm and then you know if if it be swallowed down during the year you rattle the key to get just a really lovely control system raising onset of getting getting the analyte of the key delighting them are whatever give them some some reward system and then told given the task with short so that's the trouble is that it getting symptomatic of something deeper of of the failure to create the right motivation for the company not motivation and often people equate money with motivation and so many studies have been done or show that money is partially motivating is actually certified in any way as one can you ensure there's a lot more ways of doing it in and curious thing is how arm again if you have an organisation where monies are difficult to 2 to attach to a task in the ghetto capital back up because Apple is got this weird structure where there is only one profit and loss statement is for the whole company if you prefer you pure play profit and last or division then that you can get people align the warm marching in a direction but they also tend all the optimise along the dimension and the also end up competing with other divisions when it may not be in the interests of the company for that to happen so this is why the fact the more vulnerable to disruption because the dominant the dominant PLL P&L would actually stay full the emergent P&L which might actually be the one that that needs to happen arm and suitcase appoint Windows ME windows are such a dominant P&L Microsoft that he couldn't allow a senior UNIX or a Lennox or something internal that would be more model friendly to emerge and actually take route onto a device direction and that's just was not permitted arm and sorts that is why if if you if you control things of the part when one person and one officer and one department and that all the decisions incredible company that that's invariably very valid allow these things I wonder you say you know I think we got the protectors and we will start to find it gets done with the promise to get the people at the bottom to get motivated because they all see the big picture did not get a chance to say I see an opportunity to improve values and ability radio have a visibility as well as when you created the trickle-down incentive system around one P&L that divisional Washington I think we should attack in this market I think we should optimise by being more in Czechoslovakia or something like that our Czech Republic are an insult you even get into this this are that this idea that people solely have the means by which they can optimise but do not just a lowly soldier in the end in the trench self that's where where it's the reason you get a lowly soldier in the trench motivated to fight this is a question ride you in the fight because he thinks that that he is gonna get a reward or it may fight that he thinks is gonna save himself from from from from death or he may fight because he thinks it is a greater cars and this is where I think were there again culture comes in a plaything that the only woolly applecart regulators and operators because most people work there actually feel like they're on a mission and that their omission that that the founder instilled and in the company yes and arm and that that's wearied it really is weird and I think actually does well at Apple has a lot of the tractors because it just think that that is wearied and it one day be repulsed by it so unusual that I think the feeling is how can that work and yet it works you is also creeping away because they want to be in a cold and and and and if it extends beyond the people inside you are through the use of errors and so on and so on but you see there's two sides this two points of view there is this point of view that that Apple is is is this maniacal focus on and an inversion in men before everybody there is a whole lot of people really Treasury insult that means that you know it's not a mass-market phenomenon but might actually be a very good business model and it's a very good operational model even though they may never be able to be calm arm as efficient as other competent companies are arm as as agile as other companies or as optimise other companies but that doesn't matter because you see every time that comes up and say why aren't we doing warrant Czech Republic people would say you now that's not omission or omission list you know me can seem a great product and sell that that that's that's again one of these decisions you have to make in this is that this is a fundamental decision there are companies which are sought all week that they don't even understand that the decision is B is necessary to be paid is moving will be completely randomly without guidance just hauled it like you like and what is the word that would have bought it from the people's hands are on this being the Ouija board or you know later on in the scroll men in the Indian in rugby are so you can intellect all these people pushing at the same time and somehow some that the hallmark goes on some random direction that humbles companies feel an older manager does your standing on top of them cracking the web try to get them to move maybe in some direction but he or she doesn't know what the right direction as the factory is important to them arbours as any one element in it so that this is where you have business holders and in many companies actually because they know that the actually higher strategy people as if somehow these are the cities of the magician that you help them figure out which way to go with the intent to only draw a lot of delay and then that the people look at the deed and see the other with questions to ask about the easy that everything be better than offer you answers arm big or small beta many times the better the sample you need is a of any cause wine are the one anomaly to the whole deed is the really important clue as to what the breakthrough should be there is no panacea there is no answer in business that comes from the the process or EE a I would stay open deed is nothing more than an instance of a way of solving complexity and and and yelled that the ones who will you hire your prices arm or management consultants will preach a spirit prices and see what this is the best way to move forward and trend either none of them really have the answer because if they did they would be consultants was the exact operating managers absolutely and deduct data to me is essentially it's a photograph it's this is what it currently looks like what what it can't do is a can't tell you where you need to go and it can't tell you we need to focus it can say we've been and maybe where you are now but the other direction that you said where you want and only one example which you actually will rot to me and that that you look at Google and it was probably the company that thinks mostly that it can solve the world through the scientific method the scientific method being that it will open up the daily because the qualitative analysis perhaps causal analysis and then you identify what you need to do and in if that were the keys and they think that that you that that can certainly improve a lot of things I could think there are the breakthrough in advertising arm shows that the report is more value to doing analysis on on on behaviour of users and that is by throwing a Doric but in the case of strategy is the trouble that Google has had me rule needed to rule a walk from search to do several new places and one of the places you think of android as a great success there was not EE will be into a direction that said like we can create a new business because hundred design general business it only sustained the current business and protected them against being bumped off the devices that would be the most popular in the world are potentially could have been Windows devices in which case they could have been essentially out of the business of providing certain ensemble devices protect low-pressure protective measure saw what really new pies that Newmarket belt around around social media and that Facebook sell so why didn't Goulburn will and become the next big for it had been doing a strategic planning correctly there would have been initially seen social media is that the next big thing and a knack source of revenue in the next source of usage to the nexus of engagement everything up there would have done it early enough so that Facebook would now gotten the traction needed and it's too late now and indeed figured out that he figured out after someone proved to them that was agreed business shall here is one one important point they were watching the search terms there were watching every single thing that people are doing online the happy deed we had all the data about the importance of social media to people's lives they knew how Facebook was rising the new everything out what would people were doing with suede in the act because again the management didn't have the taste in in terms of the understanding the problems with the questions to be asked if if it is if if someone would have come to them with my joy. The trains were observing the would still need to pull the trigger and so you know I think searches go I'm in no I think socialism of the big we need to go there and that BBD didn't have that instinct to build a direction arm see that horrid to ask questions and answer them you have to know what questions to ask of the big data rate arm and that's why that's an example where we are having all the information in the world wouldn't didn't help are then held Google and I think also that the question of did the disappeared whole maybe android would evolve or retire because there are starting to lose control of android award to the point where we are the fastest-growing variants of android don't have any goodwill Google services on them are and and and that's another really really interesting problem hang on these are the smartest guys in the world they have all the better in the world and and inventing things all the time why can't DCE what what others find obvious silt you that's where where you ask yourself about the the the word accounting too much on the silver bullet of the data's you know giving them the answers that they wanted and there's been other examples were weedeater has lead people astray but the arm that is just one example is a very good example I you I just need to quickly your arm talk about our sponsor and then there's a couple points that my covering a wrap up our so that wet from studio selling a business or an app is a lot like selling a house you can take a huge amount time and money redecorating and bringing the house up to scratch and modernising it into great photos and build a website showing off that house but is there is one thing missing one piece missing the can stop buyers from ever walking through the front door and its curb appeal the old saying goes don't judge a book by its cover but frankly most of us do and some and people do the same with business logos app icons and books and these days e-books without some curb appeal people won't usually take the time to check out what's inside and all your hard work could go unnoticed in my scene are that the show recently got a fresh coat of paint the new artwork is a result of working with Aaron over it I went from studio's and I can't recommend it highly enough room of the awesome icon drafts had after the first couple of years Aaron design that he was also designed a branding of 512 minimal are and also 70 dB and is a lots and lots of others is also our been involved with civility and some curb appeal Aaron can help you what I really enjoyed working away really enjoyed about working with Aaron was the fact that he really took the time up front understand what I was looking for and he responded very very quickly whenever I had questions and tweaks to the design and frankly actually he understood well enough up front that there were hardly any tweaks that I needed to do it was that good out of the blocks so the special offer just the pragmatic listeners Aaron is offering his at icon and logo design service at half price is 50% off and that's an amazing deal to get access to a professional of Aaron's calibre and experience there are plenty of other graphics designers out that they can give you something good but Aaron will take the time to make you something great so visit wet from to get in touch and take advantage of this amazing deal while it still lasts and again a big thank you to wet from studios were sponsoring pragmatic now one of the things I want talk about Horace is to do with as a in your own experience with a Simcoe there's always going to be a subset of tasks that you decide for whatever reason because either either not your area of expertise or be perhaps there is an the tasks are certainly administrative enough in nature that you can outsource that and so that you're not burdened with doing all that unexamined's common examples of things like that are are things like accounting are some people manage their own books read with some my ball run QuickBooks or as a whole much different software out there and some things like go follow my business cards undercut by a pack of 100 go kart piece of card and feed them one by one into my printer sign announces that as well minnows object pretty simple examples but I'm curious was one of the things that I think that's critical in getting our heads around what people is what the core business really is is defining what parts of your business you can carve out and subcontracts and give to other people's I'm curious about your thoughts on that you agree? The the wonders core and what isn't in fact that is often a moving target because we've seen in our we've seen fashions in this regard, girl are we parted for a while companies or conglomerates are making so it is there was very common and that companies will do all kinds of unrelated things and in retrospect consultants saying why would one company beer hotel company and then at the scene shown on the division of manufactured are ceiling tiles arm and another one that built curriculum is another wanted Bill to email cable on the democracy cables its critical data indeed was very common and then that that the trend was violently slain song in the other direction are two companies Sinaloa you need to find your core competency interest outsource everything else and outsourcing was a was a huge crisis arm prices are on the server revolution hand and many companies made a lot of money are supposedly are outsourcing everything in and arm and in in some ways actually nourishing are a big big Morgan the other direction where where at least amongst technology companies receiving a lot more in sourcing happening for Fort really are things like you just today we were hearing about Google our coroner's figures Google search company building coroner notice in another mattress prototype are building the systems for a car but the actual current cell and we'll see whether the legal and mass production or another but Microsoft buying Nokia is crazier than they would have been on an area of buying any hybrid company even before divided there were making the old tablets in competition with their with their licensees so there is a line of back-and-forth and that endowed in the same company one decade will be doing core in the next decade will be doing our general vertical integration and in and again I think it's partly driven by by conditions outside the control of the company logo think of the 70s a lot of the conglomerate stuff have to deal with it was a slow growth time there were certain issues with with interest rates or or regulation or whatever and it just seem like there was a great idea arm and is conditions may change now what we are seeing with with technology that again receiving more reintegration and that companies need to have in-house skills to do a lot of arm a lot of things that that year for example I did I found this originally though Google even has its inhales have bright in-house advertising people so that it has it's on essentially is on ad agency that does it's on TV spot so that the desk that's amazing because not even Apple does that still uses outside talent for four arm onset agencies were for advertising so when you would have received your done a lot of Google commercial attack you done in-house arm and insult is the heritage question why would you do that but the way there is a right or wrong answer I I find that that in most cases companies do these things surely in a tactical reasoning so they would say you know I just didn't like the results of using an outsourced company and so I'm going to order just do ourselves the alternative is like we have all these people was enough to be pulling their weight when would it be more efficient and would receive money we pushed the job outside and lives of these are decisions which are made on on almost like you know whimsical reasons the business they surely you you exactly thought but because we will have a theory you see the reason we do have a great theory that explains to us that the causes of success and failure in a particular our arm were excellent see if that if if it were looking at advertising we not have agreed. Understand how advertising works was relentlessly Google and in in and you try to make commercials and you are confused because of a lot of things firstly your product is different than anybody else's your market position is different than everybody else's no one knows how to advertise and promote your your particular idea because no one even understands it cancel you can't go outside and has spent all your time explaining to some of this is what will try to achieve effective probability will know yourself what you're trying to achieve goals that agency people will tell you that the client doesn't know what they want us to suit in in this case is leading the deepest need that you can uncover because you don't have the need to shoot on the PR assault so that there is this whole discussion of of but look your thoughts you could develop a period so that that in general advertising is about uncovering the that the records are to be done presented to a 2 to the arguments and that such a way that the disconnect with it emotionally plus intellectually plus logically and so on and so you trying to convey unit of the principles of Aristotle in terms of rhetoric and wildlife do all that and then and then arm you you are a it just doesn't exist that theory in the be specifically applied brightly and an insult this is why think it when you get to a theory that IQ pretty valid platelets a there is a job of arm arm designing our ability logos you just mention that job and is it is those of simple enough problem to define Brady's noticeable thing to do but I'm just saying to say we need a logo is a simple enough concept and an thing we need that local wines will need a logo every month we doesn't make sense to have an internal logo designer is also winning the local wines Megan every decade and still it cleared about the job for an outside person to do and then there would be get the chance to do hundreds of war of pieces of work and to get better at it as a duet and therefore it it makes sense to have that be are an outside function arm it's not so clear when things are and that in the middle that you do currently do not do them every every day but you my you might need to have a creative team on the inside so I am I am I again I wish I could give an answer to this shop arm generally arm it comes out of simply people asking the economic question doesn't make sense from a cost structure basis but it's not ideal you absolutely and you raise a very good point is that how how often those people will actually be effectively generating our revenue well not generating revenue exposed that are being effective and useful if the person's idle time is our 30 days out of every 31 days in a month and that's not a good utilisation of that resource so why would you bring on that person you to do advertising if you only need to do one person days worth are of work every month it economically doesn't make sense it's a deftly way I think you have to start absolutely but one of the things I've noticed because I been been dealing looking at this for years is its am I I think a lot of it is driven by the need for control and perhaps more of a perceived need for control and the issue that a lot of companies face is as soon as you outsource a certain capability to someone else then they the money that you pay them gives them the ability to build up their own capability that they can then on sell to other people and any theory that sounds fine because that means that then there refining their their capabilities and that will make them better at what they do and hence in theory better that serving you because you're not hopefully their only client that it is an interesting case recently arm that involves Apple where that sort of to some extent a little bit backfired arm with that with Samsung as I see that from the outside looking in a course I haven't worked for a company but based on everything I can tell and there is a prevailing theory out there that I've read that Apple because Samsung primary supplier and have been for years perhaps less so recently that Samsung learned a lot about what they're doing are by doing work for Apple to Apple standards and so on and that that's given them are a leg up as it were for them to build their own a smart phone ecosystem with the galaxy series and so on you one of dreams all work they have the discussion of a while back about an end if there is a theory that suggests that as you outsource more and more noticed your assets but also your your prophecies of R&R are transferred to someone else and they simply learn all the things they need to do except would you consider to be Corey and eventually Bill get that to you or to live finally jump and become your biggest competitor and often felt the elderly actually beat you and that is better prices that outsourcing prices has been nothing more than this this acid and a knowledge transfer from our from the incumbent to the entrance and so that in that is indeed a disruption by outsourcing if you well and arm it is a dangerous road to follow and in fact the leaders discussions about your capital is the dilemma which is just up about it the recently arm on my on my on my podcast Gato critical padlocks on on arm on my blog it's that there are the tendency is that once you you are successful that you could optimise and amend shedding a lot of things that you think are dead weight but actually the external to be the beach enough to be the real core and arm it again if it would be easy to suggest that that simply don't do that and just stick to your tattoo doing exactly the same things that we've always done the maths also doesn't seem to work because because you are rigid and you don't you are not actually able to move into the next opportunity comfortably if you have someone select baggage around school soil are that there is always this tug-of-war between saying well are you are you losing the things which make a valuable while at the same time if you didn't lose those things you have the agility to create the new things that are actually walking toward the goal is as element of the park is going to be so I think there is a there is a visitor there is the simple answer arm in in there are loads of examples of built in both cases I think in the example in in in the application Samsung is that yes Samsung has taken on arm some of the core value are of of smart phones because there were a supplier and arm and and that the thing that there were missing the operating system and that essentially the ecosystem was well is now is now Google's arm being now will Samsung take data for itself at some point in the future and actually become a fully integrated player that offers the same truly December just the look on and on and on and and familiarity with with a knife on but rather actually becoming a complete systems of solution and are that is that is our that is a crucial question because online hence offers after a very distinct and different than everything else and by the time you do to live in that area you might actually be facing a completely new world in terms of where the value lies in the review System software but that doesn't mean that that's where the values and abuse you don't have services or you do not have the data that that the Google is able to accumulate soul it's a moving target and a idle know if I have a good answer to this I myself I have a thing am pretty conflicted about things you have Apple Apple CCO out with a lot of vertical integration began into retail which which normally would think is an obvious link outsource why would you want to be in the sale and distribution of the products that he felt the need to do that because they needed the customer interaction and the discovery prices to happen under controlled environments of the customer could be the presented this product in the best way possible and also the brand and all that other stuff Susan brilliant move to God to reveal very asymmetric zinging when everybody else was sagging at the same time the this man loads of money and in capital equipment and manufacturing which lead on all per se the factories but the on a lot of the equipment that goes into those factories to the tune of of of you not $10-$12 billion a year which is on the level of what an Intel might stand on capital equipment which is very very expensive type of equipment are fabs of my billion-dollar unit of facilities arm and then you have you have are so Apple is in the way moving into selected areas outside of its caller which is you know engineering and design and going into retail going into manufacturing going into our distribution and arm and also going into being a service company with with items and services like a client and so on their actually a weird company that they they don't make their microprocessors but they have a microprocessor design our facility in in-house legal make their old are there are there on any factory that their products but they have designers were basically geniuses above material and and prices of manufacturing that do think about every single piece of that manufacture prices while the designer product SR disc emailed when you listen to Johnny I have all the time that there is a obsessive about how the thing is built as much as they are about Holly locks herself so that that is a very very high level in the organisation and Ansell will in some ways what it would Apple does is that the Dean old the touch points in all this matrix of things that functions in an and things need to get done with the need to control and then where the don't need to control and sometimes the day make a switch in the CLK that is an area where we should control anything that that this is the case in point of the pain point through the present was maps the masses under under under analysed people just have judgements on it as is good is bad extra turns out that maps and in the deed of that kind miserable geolocation leader it's a crisis of constant constant improvement because the data you realise that one thing I learned for example is that both companies probably sourced from thousands of suppliers and lots of people put out some pieces of that leader and and then you leered over on top of each other so you you you mean I get very good deed if you're an apple about the neighbourhood your end and in India but if if if there would somehow be able to source the dealer locally there might be make there might be a catch up with the problem might be that that's local suppliers has an exclusive deal Ansell Google is is is like then and saw the other thing that happened for example is that I want to read how the data was available but it needed to be massaged in a way to make it set had to be arm it had to be our tagged and and and and cleaned an error corrected and all that other stuff and that was done in a hugely manual prices hugely labour-intensive prices in India are where where literally late thousands of people were involved in cleaning leader for four Google Ansell Google made a commitment that that they needed to be you think of goodwill as they called the just algorithms people but then decided that the matter is so important that he needed to be in the in the data collection data filter and and you not know just collecting like these Google cars but actually being able to to or synthesising the details you want the tragic pulling all the sources and suppliers together and getting the data cleaned up and in order to do that it was very labour-intensive she needed them in huge numbers of people employed to do it arm and and you don't think that maps is a sort of a sweatshop problem in terms of the maps is a switch problem so so you make that decision a veiled arm of being being in that business arm which by the way Nokia got into by buying Navteq for $8 billion for you at the time of the do that in 2007 Google was nowhere in maps Google didn't have agreed business and now when when when Apple would be attacked for its failure to have Greg maps will be one from 0 to having EMAP system within a communal like a year and they probably did what normally would take in five years and one year and still the fire behind because Google has had yell 70 years yet you Ansell's also what the question is can even measure no one can because really this system is so big that everybody's experiences are different to just getting a couple of anecdotes and Ansell sought Google's will is is a moving target the great getting better all the time but Apple is getting better all the time is Ariza wandering well what was the what's the real gap between them arm and Ansell when you are at what is a 90% on your at 60% then there's a big gap or what if you're not there are 99 in your at 90 is that a significant Delta or or you knock in and that's with us whole that house that's how difficult this becomes our tomorrows reason and and the commitment level needed I think it's like on the billions of dollars a year scale Google decided that they were going to put that money upfront and and they decided this is a core of what we want to deliver as an experience to add to our users because navigation is a massive massive part of our of daily life especially in intercity environments where the city is always growing and changing and people need to get around whereas now Apple I think was more the case will we want can evolve our maps but Google has hamstrung us so we can't therefore we going to have to develop our own solution I sought the decision to go into maps of the girls back and I think wouldn't want Steve jobs actually thought about it back in 2000 567 when they were launching the iPhone is a problem with our first we gotta get a great experience of the phone secondly gotta get a good battery life the reality get a good screen fought it up properly maps like 20th on his list near arm and so he would say you know we can worry about it will worry about maps leader and soul and especially when when at the same year that that was happening but we NAFTA Gabbard by by our ball and there were a couple other companies like tom-tom and others who were in the map space. Basically it was a deed of business and our angles nowhere really saw action Apple doing a deal with Google was was it was a was a mutually beneficial thing to do and in so that but fast forward a couple years and then Google says look you know when I can give you arm the navigation part of of of Google Maps which is turn by turn navigation Apple must've been like you gotta be kidding me great our email do we get on so that the hand was forced away and with the dead to respond was reasonable I think is well wanted a divide from Nokia or are you not like Microsoft did arm and and then you still have as good a product as you think you might be able to do on your own so deeply turned it over to the wrong team and the work worked their asses off and I think it forgiven knowing how hard it is it's kinda a respect for the dead but at the same time you have to see that it's not as good as what people became accustomed to having and then and then select and then the life of the quality of the product arm I gotta say though having if you have Apple maps and nothing else as an alternative is amazing system you have Apple maps versus Google Maps awaits sort of scratch your head but that that this still in my unit depends where you are but it make in my experience actually map Apple maps is denied to be very very useful arm and and I find some of them leaders parts of Google Maps to be that it's user interface and so on are actually a bit cumbersome when I was it you know I'm a Mike my opinion comes from nothing but insert it's just it's just that this is this is this is that this is the kind of thinking you have to do this as I think much more of a tactical decision about how to improve the product but it's like the court decision is legally almost what jobs did really they think that that was the right decision is that you prioritise in the beginning having agreed experience whereas knocking at the same time remember that there were buying this acid was $70 billion that NAFTA capacity when nothing attention to the user experience he said we need to control the data in the map system because that's agreed business and you are right about that but being wrong about the user experience of the device which jobs prioritises number one cause of all business to implode and have agreed maps but phone doesn't even the film business is gone Ansell unit in a way that you could see what apples agree film business now is the core of the business and they have a mediocre rural it's a nomadic but ideal maps thing well you can always improve maps because you don't you go you know so much profit from the film business and you can actually nurture the maps and it's another thing that's weird about maps if it could be solved with money alone Apple has more money than anybody so wait on the facts that it turns out your sub- mill is not appropriate support it's a matter of time in the fact that you can't always get the dealer that you need somebody's life it up and so is Calais content business away so arm anyway that there is there is a lot of this stuff about discussion and I think most commentators will will jump in water to the threads of of of thinking and you have to understand that it's a complex system and there are many many threads causality is hard to prove farm and and most people simply observe correlations and that's that's that's really where are the troubling is is was about an appropriate was a decision of the trouble with the world is that that the hopefuls are sure of themselves and in ways ways men are ourselves so uncertain so it's kind of like EEE you need to be one of the ways people because that the ultimately that the Dell make things happen and and LB to want to get rewarded but still arm it it may feel uncomfortable in the very popular when you do it absolutely is one more arm thing I want to circle back to before we wrap up and it's so you mentioned Apple retail and I think that that is a perfect example of a decision to change the focus of what what court what the core business was up for Apple and dumped it wasn't so much I think a change in arm suddenly we see this differently is more of an extension of their existing philosophy of wanting to create the best possible experience so one of the aspects of the best possible experience is the purchasing and support experience and that's something that was being dealt they felt about being let down in by third-party our external retailers so they decide to take control and that's that desire to be in control but they chose something that was in alignments although as it as it was was an extension of their existing arm their existing focus so the way I why I tend to look at it when you gotta make a decision like that is thinking about are the consequence of putting an investment into something like a retail chain is an enormous investment army I think adding a bit about half of Apple's employees are actually in retail yes quite significant so that's a massive investment and not not to mention the other the physical infrastructure so it's if I make an investment what do I get significant reward and of course the converse of that is if I do if I choose not to there is a lack of investment than what is the penalty for doing that and I think that what Apple observed was that by not investing in the retail side of things and tailoring the experience the way they wanted to tailor it and providing great support they were leaving up to a random group of different companies and for those that were around before Apple stores will know that it was a tiny little nook and cranny down the back of a computer shop that was usually covered in a layer of dust so you that's that's this was an act of absolute minimum credible vision I think that for them to do this although I'm sure at the time there were thinking arm that it was it was an intuitive decision that it was also necessary decision because arm the video don't think they did the numbers if they had done the numbers in 2001 or so when they launch the stories of the should do all would have been our was it would be appalling and that's why they get criticised so much crystals we knew the numbers would you notice that this is not work arm but that because again the fight are the logic of the story was about providing a did it that the equal and that is the core of the business he realise of these products to make us all wonderful but people can't discover a debit account discovered them the deed the day you know they can't buy them and why can't they discovered them because because there are then at the featured in a prominent position and there is no one there can explain the products talk you just have this conversation and insert of files in a logical causal link EEE you know it's okay I is like asking five wise at least five wise ourselves so you won't get to the to the cause of something the foundational cars until you've asked that the final why question arm and sometimes that the path of wise meat may be wrong and you know which path to take sole this is why arm this is a method for example to allies like what is it that you observe an anomaly observe something unusual it's a and and so you ask why and then somebody gives a simple answer arm there was a was reminded of an example to us today was on arm was in my Twitter feed and try to see if I can remember it but arm sorry AA concierges now on you sort you out there it is so I asked the question of art in this attic you thing are in and Craig Craig Federici about why arm why Apple TV why you can't use Apple TV to 2 layouts to run apps and insolence it is seems like a simple question and the answer might be simple thought of as a simple thinks of somebody tweeted backers of it's easy because there is no UI for Apple TV to do to 2 and there is no controller but that doesn't satisfies the question to be deeper than why isn't there are a UI because you have the right hardware you have the connection to the Internet you have a connection to an app store or can't install at least and then you have you have all the ingredients there grade and you know you can build a different UI you know you can build a different controller and you know you can build a different receiver on the device over Bluetooth referenda to capture some of the interaction of the human body you know that because it existed exists in the form of connect from our Microsoft that exist with that with the new gang councils to widen Apple do this and then Indians would be well because the they are you know I believe that the elder arm product could be sold at a certain price points and then you ask the question why couldn't you give the product away and and have it be links to continence rooms like making of the candle as is so you do well to build the business mild is more appropriate for that environment and an insult so that that this this question and and an answer process repeatedly gets to some rude causality is seen fundamentally glitzy for the Apple TV just for the sake of argument with the Apple TV you reach the and determinists to the end the point of your discussion words as essentially that look TV is fundamentally broken as a business because that you have you have are content creators who are high costs will need therefore high revenue from advertising and and distribution deals and because those distribution distributors don't want it really is control forum for syndication due to 2 of the digit digital distributors than the kind that will never show up so you realise you come down to this core problem and then you realise that to solve that problem you need to actually go to the content creators directly lasted please me content for digital digital channel in you know and an abandoned completely working with with the current network and then you realise that the people were already established invested in the current system cannot harp to your your your your invitation but those baby are none less that you might because they have a long process to join the busted system insult so you start to reach out to those individuals and find what motivates them insolence to start of a simple question why doesn't Apple TV run apps and then you end up with with a discussion of how to motivate talented young filmmakers and that that that's why I think that this discussion went when you come came at the core of of what what Apple had to solve is is a is a company to thousand winds of freshly wearing the wind the computer business but we might get into the device business because Luke was happening to Moore's lilac what's happening to devices that we see passable it was already denying his approval and the devices will gonna come up just as foals but as PDAs and tablets already that there were some of these in the marketplace at the time and Apple would have had them in their labs and they knew what they were what they were facing in terms of the technology roadmap Ansell as the see the world shaping up until more of the device business of so that then Steve jobs realise that there is an awareness of the base there is no way to sell devices through the dusty corner in the in the in an existing store and that that that device will need to be showcased in in in in his old vision of that interaction is incidental added to think that we need to build on our store is probably 5 to 7 years before actually those devices would reach the market that was the crucial day was the lead that he took is that even though in the beginning it helps solve Max the long-term play was about devices was Ron Johnson was running Apple stores the time one time when the out on the iPad like she said in this device is why we built the Apple Store is what I think you put it that the Apple stores were designed primarily to sell this very same thing here is that you sing now and I was in 2010 and I was already nine years at the store store prices are building prices began and then you also have to realise the other magical things that you realise that you cant get stores out in the tens of thousands gonna get stores out in the hundreds and in slowly any go get the great locations and even now there are still deeply on an un-our own underpenetrated in in in outside of the United States sort sort that there are there there barely barely scratching the surface of what retail needs to be arm and and as I think I debrided this new person so you see how how long-term that thinking went but at the same time it sold the obvious if you have the right conversation early on about hang on board we need to do here because we we know ourselves what we what what are core strengths are in and that leads us to do the spectroscopic file while story Weights it's an interest in a fascinating topic and I'm really glad you're able to run, show and and and talk about talk talk through your thoughts on and down it's it's it's been really great having you whites want to say thank you again and and I think we should probably wrap up that it's okay Greg Saskatchewan so one if you'd like to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter at John TG and check out my writing attack if you'd like to send any feedback please use the feedback form on the website and that's why you're so fine show notes under the episode of the upset under pod casts and pragmatic you can follow pragmatic show on Twitter and CLC show announcement other related materials and again thank you so much Horace Arthur joining me what's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they want to keep arm on Twitter at the arm a simple E SY MCO and also as my blog is called a calm and the arm by critical path podcast on promo five is also a place you can hear me and is absolutely required lessening of enlisting every episode from the beginning so if you have highlighted out you should you should be listening that and some SM car also I think that this inquiries is as as a hobby is the same vein as the Apple TV but is a highly because we started some time ago thinking that you know this is one of those industries that makes a great thinkers to study as as as another lens but also because we think it's probably right for a big change in a wishing that happening I love learning to live like quite a lot and was interesting because another one I'm highly recommend so absolutely please listen to those of you have some time and that again I like to personally thank wet from studios for sponsoring pragmatic if you're looking at some have appeal to products or company remembered her specifically visit this URL went from and to get a great result at half price and thank you everyone for listening and thank you Horace´┐Ż
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Horace Dediu

Horace Dediu

Horace and his blog Asymco and two great podcasts The Critical Path and Asymcar.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.