Pragmatic 43: It's The Best Thing For Everybody

1 November, 2014


When you create a product the time inevitably comes when you have to either hand it over or shut it down. Marco Arment joins John to look at how they have approached the problem of letting projects go.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic as a weekly discussion show concertina practical application of technology exploring real-world trade-offs with great ideas are transformed into products and services can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems that episode is sponsored by wet frog studios visit wet frog to get in touch and take advantage of a special offer of the app icon and logo design service exclusively for pragmatic listeners also sponsored this week by audible visit audible for a free audiobook download will talk more about our sponsors during the show on your host John Geagea and I am joined once again today by my guest host Marco Apartment Peter Margot Gerd Harriet very good thank you for coming to the rescue with a lifestream to buy the way and is okay so once again we are live streaming the show are a letter signed by Marco are and you can join in the chat room are as well its own now possible to see list of topics will be covering the show in coming weeks on the website and if you're not a member you will be able to see the list but if you sign up you'll be a vote on the existing list and suggest whatever topic you like a bomb show and future blocking episodes a week or two had a timetable considered topic and coastal ghettos to get ahead of time so you can tune and you'll know what to expect are the new features are live on site right now and yes site backup don't wait go check amount now are I've had quite a few really good suggestions are already including DRM RFID's and also a few other psychiatric amount so arm is great to be back Marco because last time we did talk about coffee which is awesome course and dug a lot of great feedback which have already done however are I really want to talk to you about are an issue that I've come across in that I've seen other people come across I know that you must have dealt with this at some point are several times in fact and it's the idea of when you create something being able to at some point let it go as in either hanging over someone else or simply knowing when it's time to move on and I know that you've done it several times are in your career and I guess just a bit of a recap of the people don't know what there was your involvement with tumbler then there was Insta paper which I suppose was more entirely your baby are then the magazine and publish. Becker's overcast is still still the relatively new will actually notice get an announcement on the show so I guess that where I want to start is sort of set settled a few few alarm boundaries on this discussion so I'm not in our contract were clearly because contract work that's mainly what I've done and it's pretty clear upfront one when you create something it can be handed over to a client at the end of the contract and sometimes handing over the finished product sometimes you handing over the content that the product plus all of the design documentation in the case of software that would include the source code all the comments are all design documentation is what spends the contract but generally in in in my my wheelhouse anyway and control systems engineering will hand over the whole lot and so a lot of our maintenance contract necessarily as for contracts you when you contract to create something specifically on Hannah when he done talking primarily about areas where you are creating a product yourself so I guess I just want start with how have how has your view of this change has a change has evolved arm since you started out developing a Insta paper to where you are now well I think the biggest thing is wide when I started developing Insta paper and and promotes thunder as a recurrence of Emperor AI never really knew actually roll some of our I never really knew what it was like to have a project that had a life that extended beyond my interest in arm or it would have to have a project that that could continue if I start working on our inner before that I had visibly little personal things in a mostly in a mostly little the latter at myself a little stupid things arm that everyone anywhere even when I was working on them and I had some level to my full-time job arm but that was in I was never the only pertinent somewhere arm so that could continue without me and and dead and and actually quite well without arm and he lives like a blogger in a personal leg webpages and stuff the back that little bit differently webpages can eat like well lives and in our personal podcasting anything that features you as the writer or speaker or otherwise in the demeanour only create a voice that pretty much can continue without you so is it was Canada first being that a no work done that they really could continue without me that that I also owned in Isaiah Britain running arm so it was entirely new to me leg when mice are in thinking that I wanted out of it arm to halt the whole concept of leg well I could start working on this that are was unfamiliar concept to me was one of the reasons why graphs I think I said before I properly should have sorted about a year earlier than I actually did arm I was at that point I was I retired a fortnight and I was already getting very overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that it needed are to relieved to keep up to it to seem intended to stay competitive and getting better arm it it was really not a one-person Java for the entire year before actually sold okay so when you did actually when he did sell its armbands yes is one of things I did the basin because I've been listening to you for years and reading up on a little bit refresher before we did this are so you have sold a majority stake to our beta works correct correct you so you do you still have a part stake in this and you can if you don't answer that is fine the idea so intense but insensitive actually being involved with any prey any support for that that ended long ago is that right you annual really all is almost as soon as I soldered in making a there is some time rapidly transferring to them and that that the really like as soon as soon as the cool breeze and everything was in the hands arm I was effectively dark our dad over a slew and therefore occasional meetings this locality to stir well at university in posted on how he is here that were doing and here's scanner were going next they will keep allowed my opinion something but it's it's very rare because they're not need to it's it there is now is that it's no longer mine and and so I am I'm very hands off NOAA give abbeys the transfer as much of my knowledge and opinions as possible upfront and then it's dabbling with an image in a fantastic job fair enough so it was arm so when he did actually had over it was arm I'm guessing both what you're saying it was more of a our moral weight off your shoulders and a bit of a relief from the sounds of it than a year and in innocently running at full approval of the last year of Ed it was just I was sticking leading guilt visibly because I knew that this service could be so much more arm but at that time this was arm touches with leak 2012) 13 at whatever this was arm here the servers are fiercely needed a lot of help I was able I was really only interested in working in the I was out the wet hours I was a mass arm because I'd aged in care arm see also the current overcast with you about I was about his life over there because I'm looking at the sequence that you've ordered the that the signature released things than that that is cassette that is consistent though if you put a lot of time and effort into the iOS app and rate and and honestly a lot of mince up most of that is because I enjoy doing I was at more and more interesting to me but in another product is that the eight inner iOS apps really have a much greater rate of return are investment of time and so if I am if I'm trying to figure out where the limited time it also is a better idea to put in the iOS app on the web in a web app can be just barely got another just barely functional and that's good enough for most people and Andy the the incremental value you get out of press or increase sales increase user happiness out of making the web out better is so much smaller than making a iOS app while the primary window into the service if you think it is a service I suppose is gonna be through the iOS apps I understand that the reason the focus on that as well and I mean from a control point of view as well you have far more control over that than you do over the web because now they can be who knows what they're running that what browser on my machine they're running on whereas with iOS you've got a minimum standard that you know that is going to be met so it's I guess that's also made after consideration totally bit but it inner even even beyond that even be unlike better web compatibility crap arm there is a lot more value in in both customer happiness and in press and possible other income there somewhat more value in just making admitting they were sober is nothing to just occurred to me and what you just said is that arm I thought for quite some time that you're a big proponent of PHP and they tell me rather ride in Objective-C's are you telling me yet another one of the reasons why I read the web and PHP is because I don't care about it because I know PHP very very well and I know how to make a web app that I will need to care about in PHP and by I nearly like overcast the WEB service has first downtime two days ago like it was literally 100% uptime until two days ago and the only reason it wasn't two days ago is because Lino had a network issue, the switches so the servers are fine it was just literally views can reach and in eight I don't want the drive-in I've been in the position before above having to babysit service and and it's terrible and so I ate and I architected my web services ever since then to Sydney as little attention as possible and so I know how to do that very well and PHP I know very and very well how to make web service that will not require babysitting that will not leave me up and all the mate that will almost never have random downtime because something we're crashed and sat ideal and PHP is really good for that and there's a lot of problems with language certainly did is not perfect if you think your language choices curriculum not well enough out but innocently picks you has has a lot more floors than anyone would do that but it is still like it is it is very possible to still rate Greek code in PHP in its the language will not prevent you from riding occurred and equal better language want prevent you from riding back at our year there is a whole lot of terrible PHP code out there because language is really easy to learn and so a lot of extreme newbies who don't know how directed code yet rate PHP code and so it gets about rabbit setting up Visual Basic in other milling relevant arm Visual Basic lost in a had a similar reputation of being terrible language and the factors in yellow and had some problems believe that up most abruptly gets the language was mostly fine and you could wait for the record and are just fine like so anyway you are a basic II have a love hate thing for IICS utility arm as a companion to things like Excel and when word more so Excel arm bits in Iran and a few of the scarred packages that I views also use are Visual Basic as a scripting language which is young, handy I guess but are all ultimately your eyes I do thing as a bit about rabbit is why I agree with that ear and an ear the reality is like a zealot at the it's hard to make a return on investment web service and so that's why okay I just got the language they already know very well are a don't think it would be productive of me to spend a whole bunch of time learning a new web language when my interest is out there in the current price and make the monies out there nice fair enough okay so I'm Sabrina back to where it where I was some wet where we saw started which is the younger when you came to doing the magazine did you approach it differently even subtly differently are with more of an intention that at some point you would you may hand this over to somebody else did you approach that any differently second time round second major product really and in it with the magazine so AA lasted and an freeze soon avalanche I realised by their terrible mistake okay freeze as Eliza realised all okay this actually like most of the work of running and I was magazine is not making the app good which the party enjoyed its know that it's all the Tory stuff of running a magazine and getting stories in working with the offers other people work in a that's all that stuff is by far the majority of the work of running a magazine even if it happens to be a nap so I realise very quickly needed help arm because I couldn't keep doing that and also in a magazine is like it at a fixed schedule in hours every two weeks I'd like you have to do that every two weeks no matter what time of year it is matter how busy you are a family stuff to your other work stuff I can that is a fixed schedule and leak it is relentlessly that that will not go away and so is it every two weeks you have been putting out X number of stories I had that you have to know by and edited and dealt with in and formatted in photos for it bit you know it optionally so the workload was was both substantial and also relentless so I immediately hired help by Harry Glenn Fleischman who was the current editor and Samaritan to be the editor and AA Beasley was we need a title for ourselves lately and we didn't know he visibly told me best on his knowledge of the actual making industry like roughly what what role you are both doing and he needed some titles for only remember what they're worried I think I was like the executive editor may be whatever it was he was really the editor and I was I was doing the final like yes known pictures and was not so arm yes it is clear what happened was a few few months into that arrangement arm's travel numbers are going down and the money was going to get substantially reduced as a result and I realise like you know this I don't think I can make this work like it if it can remain beckoned breakeven for a while by it can be hard for me to make enough money on this to make it worth all this time and putting into it because I could be doing something else and are site up to Glenn about it and he said you know he was interested in putting more retirement to it and continuing it and are in an untrained expand into he was interested in doing website improvement which as you know I was and and that's it so he was interested in expanding it and so he said hey now can't convey your customer if it were a buyer from you through whatever we do whatever we can afford agree to and that I see Alice what do that and it was a no-brainer because a high priority want to be out of yelling at what one was for thinking that silenced pepper are a a common friend Brent Simmons are you probably know him from the spirit and things like that you newswire before that arm is because Brent has all things before and it's there are a lot of indie developers who have sold things you can ask questions with arm but I am fortunate enough to to be front of Brett so at a cold recipe arm and thinking about silenced pepper what you think like him here's here's my fears and and here is you know here's my guilt and and what you think and give me the best advice I had ever heard at the time which was our if you don't feel it working on anymore you should sell it and it's it's the best thing for everybody for it for you and for the users that that someone that someone takes over who wants to work on that you know if something like it if you want work on anymore but you still do keep it then it's it's can languish or at the Oriental union I Facet and that's not good for anybody and and selecting of late that a lot of the guilt they felt like well I globally won alike selling PR people can be mad at the gas air sold out our inner are the people you have supplied on anymore mad at me in Hollister arm a lot of that car wash away when it when I went off to Brent as he hissed he was so right and so OA replied that since then arm so so AA sought to provide that my work on anymore and I saw the magazine the more and favours overcast arm the reason will either be that somebody offered me $1 billion which is unlikely or are that it will work on anymore fair enough right before we are going further the more things I want to talk about would talk a little bit about our first sponsor which is our wit from studios is selling a business or a nap is like selling a house you can take a huge amount of time and money redecorating and bring the house up to scratch and modernising it into great photos of your website showing off hours but there is one thing want my missing piece against buyers from ever walking through the door and that's curb appeal the same goes you don't judge a book by its cover but frankly most was still do ability the same with business logos app icons and books on e-books these days without some curb appeal people don't usually take the time to check out what's inside and all of your hard work could go unnoticed one great example of her bill done well is our pragmatic show at what I think so I had lots of great feedback about the artwork as a result of working with Aaron over it wet from studios and I can't recommend them highly enough when the awesome design icons that starred Russ had the first couple of years Aaron design that he also designed benefit several popular popular blogs including our five topics. Net minimal lots and lots of other recognisable apps businesses and websites so if you're looking at some curb appeal Aaron can help once I really enjoyed about about working with Aaron is that he was able to focusing very quickly on what I needed it to what I wanted and came back with something that was practical and met all of my requirements and required very little rework so it was it was fantastic as it actually went so much faster than I expected it to it was efficient and I got a good result so as special officer pragmatic lessons Aaron is offering his Apple icon and logo design service for half the normal rate and at an amazing deal to get access to professional Aaron's calibre and experience there are plenty of other graphic designers out there that you can then give you something good but annotated time to give make you some great visit wet from to get in touch and take advantage of this amazing deal while last thank you once again twit from studios sponsoring pragmatic the thing that I'm that the thing that I'm that I'm hearing a lot there Marco is that when it reaches a point where you are you no longer have that the drive in a specific project you're okay with with with bundling up and handing over for someone else to to run with which is which is fine arm I guess what was interesting is that I've met a lot of people quite a few people that have trouble letting go are energising to be one of them well in I mentioned that that I saw as liberal a year to lead arm ethically dinner trouble letting go and am still I'm still not amazingly good at it by getting better over time and as I have done it more than zero times now are big highs eight AC what happens in elegantly people is no as most people overestimate their error their importance to a particular task and slick in some some people must always think I can leave a Java car please inform part without me and it usually doesn't you usually people pick up the slack and you know you aren't is as irreplaceable as you as you assumed and everything just in its fight with Edward mixed the world keeps turning exactly are and in ascending habit of absent and then Gisela Slinger as long as you leave it in the hands of somebody you know and and as long as they have some kind of incentive to keep going and do well at it it'll be fine leg is no big deal and and you're not just handing it over for a free you are getting in some sum of money for even if it's more getting so much money for it but also you are getting the freedom of not having like of all that all the work that that was that's no longer your problem that the long run you and so you are then free to go do something else and and that's very valuable and especially for fishmeal is your adult you but you worry working on that verifiable so that I think it if you're going to sell something everything was on something arm that should be a limiting factor that this like that this won't be a problem anymore you will it work on something else now if that's scary sounding deal like if if you if you not what someone else directing this thing taking it over bring in new pleas of the media necessarily wouldn't have arm or in a do things differently from how you would do it and and if you don't want to work as a mouse then you shouldn't sell it then it's operate time UES as soon as the idea of not working on it for liquor relief to you that I think you probably should consider selling but of course that will come with a loss of control and if you're not ready to give up control you are ready to sell set in that that's the part of the letting go that that that is our I've seen people struggle with is because we we get build this emotional attachment people say that that project is squatting quote you your baby you know so you pour so much time and efforts and care and attention is something you become emotionally attached to it and makes it more difficult to let go and it makes it difficult to let other people mess with your baby as it were and are I'd absolutely agree with with yours with the sentiment which is you once letting go is a relief you know it's time I think that's a really good way of summarising and I think that's ultimately when people do start down the road in a project they have to keep in mind that at some point you hand over is going to happen inevitably maybe people move on from jobs like you say that if it's a project that your building no project is going to last forever and nothing can be indefinite if you're building a platform the platforms could be cut will become obsolete that there is no platform still around today that was around 40 years ago was reasonably sure there isn't anything that through I think so I'm sure someone will have follow up and tell me that I'm wrong but eventually inevitably you're going to have to have over at some point or it's going to have to be wrapped up either way similar consequence but still so again what the other things that you mention that I might talk about is you said that you are concerned how people would perceive would perceive your handing over of some of the stuff is selling up selling these expression that you may be selling out one of things that I've been I've thought about lots is why do people think that you why walk is it do think it's the is a pervasive sort of feeling that large corporations were corporate takeover point of Yong and Agana by acquire this product and everyone love this product now longer by bringing the fold and it's gonna get no care attention for part within a year or two it'll disappear you do think that's the reason why was dealing with something more to it I'm just trying to get my head around why people would just jump to that conclusion are they selling our time in adding a lot of it is is that Hall like you know I I had a arm before the recalled anything in early lead people people on a holiday but arm had an update unless you have no idea was the Arbitron understand because to me it's me about that I had to have this thing before they were famous although before it was popular or whatever else we want value is that anyway means like saying first like on the first blog post interest and get that either but arm near I think it's only it's interesting that the people jump to the conclusion because there's so much more to it than simply selling and connotation is that's a bad thing is like wool how do you know it's a bad thing if you are going to do what you said let let's say you've lost your interest into our fast job of it as a result not not because of any other reason other than you just lost interest and it happens to everybody eventually you lose interest in what you doing assist a distant I think the nature of repetitive while some things I guess inevitably boil entering repetitive tasks after a certain period of time after that initial act of creation is passed on in your into a maintenance sort of cycle then things become more monotonous more repetitive more UI and less fine and less interesting so that leads you to our fast job and if you don't sell at the new could actually be doing a disservice to it more of a disservice to it by not selling it so exactly the practical conclusion is you have to have to think well okay if I hang onto it I make it worse selling is the best option and yet hang on a minute I'm being criticised for selling it like I'm not saying that you were but I'm thinking I've seen it happen with him so I use this as this person sold out of whatever and I think that that is it is very dismissive and doesn't really evaluate the real reality of the situation and yet anyway not sure would also say on well and I think you there it there is a lot to be said for how you do it our ear if if you sell something it matters alight in how you sell it who you sell it to our inner whether you're staying in our intellect that these are offering for these words in it how honest you are with with the customer is whether anything will change like if you if you're selling something to Google because you're going to work for Google and something else chance they oppose or die with enough within a month are an answer with you if you sell something beloved project and it's immediately shut down as part of the deal that's a very different scenario versus if you sell something to someone else who can keep going indefinitely answered that there is certainly that and an unite every not everybody can can choose options are compulsively given one option later but if you can choose are generally speaking it's better for you to in a physically pro going people use it napping set a also wiser in what when I was when I finally stirred solid in the price of science paper arm when it came time to announce the sale I was extremely nervous about what about what the reaction would be I thought there would be tons of people screaming at me and and intermittently feel horrible about this because I had your courts or out of whatever in reality only have one literally one person complain and it's person completed everything not unsuccessfully the nomination of a nut) arm and literally out of hundreds or thousands of responsible gun at one person had a problem with it that's in is a remarkable ratio midnight I could there is nothing else that I could see or tweet or blog that would have that kind of ratio of positivity around the ceiling coffee is good and I would get in or 20% of people telling me that I'm a complete idiot leak that there is it's shocking like how how much positivity there was an and combative swing that what we said earlier arm there's a lot of people in most of its people's user base never knew who I was didn't even know it was a one-person product didn't care that was one person wrote most of the user base didn't even realise when it was sold and many of them still haven't realised that and so you know it's it's a really my personal involvement in it really matter a lot less than I thought like it was it was a lot less essential that I be the one owning and running it that I thought because you the reality is multiple discarded only our story or whatever and they used it as part of their life and then then they never even knew who I was and is really didn't care that's it that's a very good point actually because a lot of people simply don't they don't see the developer at all doesn't know what product is the evidence that all they see is arm the brand arm the arm the name Insta paper now so dies in suburbia that's fantastic you know the developer was a developer I imagine a lot of people probably would even say that grabbing a lot of people probably bothered Apple made it because everyone things and every other mammal that is true of her that when I haven't met anyone that said that's me at that I don't think of asked the question tell a story telling people that you make iPhone apps and see simply say I made a crummy little clockwise you terrible bad why is it everything that you look back at no matter how proud of it you were at the time looks terrible a year later I don't see because you care begin better that's true I suppose it's Trish I guess I know you be scared if you if you look back until you wrote five years ago and is now that was genius that you be scared that's a work of art that wasn't about five years ago midnight no idea okay right I think that's that's my limit new litmus test whether I've lost the plot Oracle well arm there is there is access and the others will do quickly talk about but some these initial show today so that's okay but that is what could be to our second sponsor and get them than the last point which is so audible so audible is a leading provider of premium spoken audio information and entertainment that allows listeners to choose the audio versions of their favourite books and what you want it as well a lot of our day-to-day activities you need arise in the job site is a book you really want to read and you're so busy the things you can't find that time and that's where audiobooks come in it's much easier to multitask when you're listening to music podcast audiobook with you driving doing housework yardwork with audible you can still read your favourite book is quite a great read your book and not miss out it's really cool so you can buy books individually or you can sign up for the audible listener program which gives you book credits each month for a low monthly fee you download your audiobook to your PC or Mac or Windows phone android Apple iOS device and listen to it wherever you might be now I'm a huge Douglas Adams fan so I had looks the audible had the way of his books and audiobooks and was about 20 of them in their library including all hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy books and my favourite is the to do gently books as well as our two documents as he was involved with including the unfinished trader episode that was the basis for the first urgently book event that sort of history and I miss part though is that some of the books are read by Douglas Adams himself now ability to I've listed urgently's listings of agency twice now fantastic anyway if you're not into our listing the original reader own book sometimes that not that they're not the best narrator that's fine arm often that there will be other book versions are audiobooks with a different narrator soap this box of options to choose from now all of the books in the business classics of flower fiction history romance mysteries thrillers sci-fi fantasies of development kids young adult and lots more with over 150,000 titles at a lot pretty much every genre you can think of you can find looking for right now you get a free audiobook in a 30 day trial by signing please make sure you that specific URL audio audible your free audiobook like to thank audible once again the sponsoring pragmatic so the last little piece that I will talk about Marcus and his mention before briefly expandable bit which is it's about not about how you sell it but it's about who you sell it to and taking a bit of care about who specifically sell it to know the magazine obviously with Glenn it was almost a natural progression because he'd already been involved with that up until that point for several months so I think that sort of flow naturally and you have made a lot of sense arm with respect to to beta works I'm not sure how that sort of went down Intel's little bit about how you are not bar with with beadwork specifically yes sure so I knew better works from the tumbler bears there would be warily investor in tumbler and and we had and they were in New York we will be neither offers a number of times for various events and stuff and I told them a lot before and they in fact even our offer to buy into favourable really early on that lifetime and and so I tossed about then and it was great for a time so it was another time but I was very very very familiar with them there also is some innocent solace to them there also recently acquired turnaround dig and so I knew at you at that point that are in their are getting into this Gaelic a web and an iOS product space pretty aggressively are and you are a site I knew that they had talent at priority knew them and so I can do the people behind and a new inner roughly to the people in the kind of people who would be working notify sort them and and I knew that they were also not into throwing a bunch of money at something and and having none of it work and shutting things down like they're not really do that link the if the dragons they care about and so I knew that if I disorder to in a Google or were great and I didn't have an office at the time Sirena Nuttall had had that I had a lot of choices here but I wasn't seeking offers arm either so if if I had sought to somebody else are some some big company leader you have to look at the cable what what used does this big company have for the thing and sign and in a part of the deal was I'm not going to work for you in your mind this thing from me and you are taking it from me and I'm getting at is something else and that's the whole point of me getting out of this principle are notably that of all afterwards no not really so easy and a lot of trouble for the guard you my bosses really didn't like it at third though so in a you that the big companies like RSI to a few big companies earlier on in life span and now I was not there were interested in buying instrument but in fact they really warrant their willingness were trying to hire me in there once was better at the higher deal are books and an in a liquor praise never worked out like the way a white LED like I never like if if you only want to hire somebody then yelling at you and appear certain pricing panels one employee worth in their imminent or ethical limits as it isn't noted in the massive Omani arm that way acquired deals usually not tell you how much they sold for by the way you very much arm but so if you click the really big companies then not have much use for this week the beat they have no interest in keeping the service going and making the apps better only that they have no interest in that it is not for literary strategies and art so I knew that if I sort of says it doesn't moneybag it would primary sitdown dinner in short order are I also knew the better works could use Insta papers so wouldn't you not only having just not that that knowledge of the year did you try to be fiscally responsible a lot of projects inside a knew that they would just like I'll just make everything 3M were free more about me leader and an involvement under knockout shutdown is and how they operate arm they do things to be sustainable Billy from the start and end so that that was a big stabbing plot I also knew that that it was it was a similar size service then many of the other things that there was that they had and I also knew that it it worked out strategically are with things like dig like if they can dig if they can use Insta papers analytics data to nearly kill a bunch of people receiving this one story maybe we should look at that for Dick Blake in that there are some like in a cross emotional usefulness things here or intermediate media we should promote dig from Insta vapour and vice versa so there is this all sorts of like the reason why a knew that better works would would be interested in Insta paper and there would have an incentive to keep going and and Sonata brunette or shutdown so I realise this 18 and a immediately just email you ran down from that I was I remembered a renter from bad and I emailed John Borthwick a better works all colonial and Vanessa Heyer owner solace I think you are ready for sell to and I went in there a couple days later and whatever Dion and that was it meant I didn't sharpen around anybody else are because I couldn't think of anyone else who will both would be willing to buy it at that time Hill who I could commence to buy it and who I would want to buy we are alike about atomiser lies alike to the fact that you reach the conclusion through a series of farm near that they they fit the bill there was a good fit as they say and I think that's wonderful and I have a hate the connotative wealth the suggestion are that's I know it company X has product why and they decide to the highest bidder Nuttall the end of it I am sure rather idle I like to think that a lot of places that the bill probable products and then sell them and move onto the next one that they go through a similar process I like to think that but for whatever reason the meme seems to prevail whereby you know this image of some guy in a suit walking up carrying two big bags of money with $the front of each of them and you go you know I'm on the highest bidder here are just arm on I think that it's it's great that those that let the same level of care and attention that you put into the app is you also put into handing over picking her to hand over to wonderful so i.e. arm just want to quickly mention arm before we wrap this up air about my issues with defect and liability periods arm it sort of tangentially related arm because when I deliver products are under a contract there is a period of time the contract called the defect and liability. Would the NLP as I have attended abbreviated and during the NLP space to rectify defects and that's fine songs you can agree what constitutes a defect and what doesn't because of course the whole sneak things in and say I said disco be a certain colour is not the colours could pretty black-and-white when dealing with software it's like while this pages load quite quickly enough and you're looking at there is much scriptwriting you like wow guess I could probably did theirs predict that Adam your budget $5000 a say in which a budget is gone your bits gone so if you go and spend all that money fixing a couple of screws slow loading scripts honour on the scar pages and then something breaks never signed the plan and you need to go and replace a bunch of things that I cost a lot more than that people get angry so there is a very big push are in the in the industry in my industry anyway and that when it comes to rectifying defects you are you just do enough to tip to get by that some I tended to get little bit too emotionally attached to my staff and some the customer sometimes and I tended to arm now they'd call me up and I'd be outside the defect liability. In IQs come out like half an hour or whatever dialling remotely and fix this and me being young in a sucker I guess I do know I got emotionally involved I guess that's the problem and I said yes sure why not some of the bosses found out they were impressed so you know you're availing that all that old wisdom that the agreement at all you never get emotionally attached to your controller software what exactly no funny I listen my grammar exactly right and here I am doing it again but in so arm I think ultimately are there was one doesn't want to add about this but I guess the other thing that I know would buy I have asked you early on if your project differently from the point of view of arm handing over when you're done and I guess I guess my background is slightly different because most of what I produce is going to be handed over in some shape or form and I found that doing a lot of the like not being lazy with the code in and commenting it well and and structuring it well has also have other benefits but one of the other benefits is that when it comes time to hand over at some point in the future it may set transition easier and it means that you can get less support calls you get less drawn into when they take over inept they're working on it you get less of those you can become a registered walkers through this better walk-through that burden because of its or if it is well structured well documented and everything then it is less about less of an issue when it comes time to hand over so I guess that it be mine the other piece of advice to anyone in a situation experts are anyway that the fact is that you are not your work in general in life you are not your work and whatever you're working on whatever project you're working on will and Noonan matter how personal you think it is a matter how much healing it defines your identity are the fact is that's all limited and at some point everything will and you will move on from it at some point you will die everything ends like so it's it's important to 2 Sonata attacks your own identity too firmly to anyone work project that you do he also what it is you can reach me on Twitter John if you'd like to send any feedback please use the feedback from the website and that's where you also function at this episode under pod casts dogmatic and if there are any topics you want me, we can suggest voter limits once you sign up for a free you vibrant manage on Twitter and decision announcements another show related stuff articles like they Mayo guest host a micrometre coming back on the show and what's the best way to be in touch at DiMarco Arms Twitter requirement or a gourmet soap Michael Littlewood fantastic and occasionally you will you do this some podcast as well was accidental I heard about ETP.FM as the one that I sent out also to thank the two sponsors for this episode are firstly wet from studios so if you're looking to add a professional touch to your app product company remember specifically visit this URL wet from to get a great result half the normal price was like to thank all of the sponsoring show please make sure you use this URL audible your free audiobook check them out today and thanks for listening everybody thank you Marco and also thank you for run Fleming usual eyestrain are is a question from Vic if not tips to stay focused project that is in keeping with the topic and I have an anyway notice a focus thing if you if you need tips to keep you focused on a project you're working anymore… If you want to work on it you don't need that you those that is true yes so the tip is to stay enthused how you can delete there is nothing to do this you to make yourself be interested in something that you lose interest in our orally and in this as this is like what happened in Redlands podcast about about solicitor back to work arm and said but like you know if if if you don't actually like working on something enough they are motivated to do it maybe you maybe that's enough really needed another can work you actually want to be doing like you see it it's so easy to just say I go I want to write out so I wrote a book I want you not go under these I won't be a drug or whatever if you heat jargon and if you need like tongues and motivation to go jogging every morning maybe you're not really into jogging Nivea and I really drug it's fine like you if you if you find the work you're doing so tedious that you need tips and tricks to stay focused that's propping up the kind of work you want to be doing and you happy doing better than that of the situation but but if if this is like a personal project and you clarify motivation or trustee focus on it than that's a problem so it's a Vic Hudson clarified his question a little bit about about needing motivation or a focus and he said he had has has multiple things you must work on his I want to run all of them and can stay focused on one for any real length of time arm this sounds like a combination of of my original answer which is like I bet many of these things are near you don have a mini menu art movement would be elaborate on the arm but but it's a combination of that problem and secondarily you're probably stirring to many thanks are and in their as there are so many things I would love to be doing right now I have so many ideas I would be working on our diameter to work on but I have descended most of them because I only have a certain time and and an assortment of energy and and focus attention so the solution to that problem is now to somehow generate more time or generate more energy for yourself or focus the solution of the problem is to see note most of us things and to only do us a very small number of things and do them very well and that them in that there is no other answer that's that's it or a union of the company and have budgeted budget divisions and have a better work on the stuff for you then then it's a very different job are there and requires global capital sought so you know if if you if if what you doing is not fitting into the Maritime you have then you need to reduce the number of things you doing absolutely agree with everything you said and what I would suggest Vic is the we have absolute talk about is a little bit previously but it it's more about two in my mind it is great to have ideas that that's fantastic have lots and lots of ideas at that's great but you need to pick the leading idea that you are run with the one that you want to see through to fruition the most and and keep that end in mind that is your goal if other of if other elements other ideas you have can be funnelled towards that same end goal great fantastic but you are inevitably going to have to say no to a whole bunch of them that simply aren't in alignment with that direction in that would be my suggestion you have to pick a winner and our know that's not easy but you have to do and that's why choosing the one you're most passionate about is the best answer because that will give you the most drive and therefore the best chances of success and where success is measured by completion but that way you mean like that there are so many link I would love to rewrite my blogging engine again I would love to make a program to replace logic as a podcast editor are these people love that almost everybody who uses body data podcast with a large I would love to work to make are effectively like the tumbler of podcast hosting and any make it really easy to host podcast websites I Derek there are so many these things I would love to do are that that I have a lot I have motivation to work on them but if I started working on our it would it would become a problem because I would have to many things I'm juggling as anyone Marco you and a money vernacular worker's i.e. I am not even officially my time and are not even very disciplined so I had a have to consider like not only how much time I have but the kind of work are actually on the counter person actually am inane I know that whatever I choose to do there is no way it is getting it hours of work every weekday like that is not happening because that's just I'm not I'm not that focused in general like I have my blog and may podcast and Ali to dig around my computer and read the Internet and stuff select I know that you know all and I also have a family and I have real-life distractions and and so I am very aware of that I'm now can be working eight hours a day and everything and as I have to choose my work accordingly as funny depending on who you talk to this is the distraction that some we do the FAO depends they want think about I guess that some because the other I've had gone through the same discussion with arm with my wife it's interesting because and I had up in a similar sort of its balance and you you gotta be very careful as I said is a 24 hours a day can't manufacture my times eagerly smother a do it and am I the only person's mind is blown by how many projects_David Smith actually has running in he makes Oliver's look bad again melts when I look at this Mike how can you do all this at once means genius near year he I don't know how he does it AA I think the answer is that he is a really good worker like he is very diligent and very structured with his time like that's pretty sure that's how he does it because it is an annual so he also was very good at allocating his timing is not limitless but but you know he said in a number of a number of occasions like hit his projects basically like earn his attention by how much interest areas how much they bring in like man and he splits his time between things very well rose I can do that and often another discipline as he is with overall been a work time and so are so are in a attitude accordingly and an Tamika Skinner decision for yourself you have to be pretty self-aware at that to know what your limitations are and a lot of people just it's hard to face that it's it's hard to know that and it's hard to admit that maybe you're not the most efficient worker in the world you is about being honest in our document is only a couple of episodes ago about being honest about how much time you actually do have an and how you budget your time and and how you have a figure if you are you in a position to take on a new out project of any kind and it's the being honest but the people so is so easily so be honest microbicide that I can't make someone be honest with themselves about themselves that something that has to come from inside that person and I can't make someone be honest with themselves exact so people said that Mina Pastor Mike I am being honest with myself six months later think back out really wasn't being honest with myself back six months ago that there it's a tough thing it is you say is hard to do�
Duration 56 minutes and 31 seconds Direct Download
Episode Sponsors:
Wet Frog Studios: Wet Frog Studios are an amazing App Icon and Logo Design company with a knack for understanding what you need and delivering a great result quickly. Exclusive for Pragmatic listeners they have an offer of their App Icon and Logo Design service at HALF PRICE. Visit the URL below to get in touch and take advantage of this amazing deal and add some curb appeal to your project today. Visit to learn more.

Audible: Audible is the Internet’s leading provider of spoken audio entertainment, providing digital versions of tens of thousands of audiobooks for download to your computer, smartphone and MP3 player. Visit the URL below to get your free Audiobook today! Visit to learn more.

Show Notes

Related Links:

Premium supporters have access to ad-free, early released episodes with a full back-catalogues of previous episodes


Marco Arment

Marco Arment

Marco writes at his site and has a podcast with friends called the Accidental Tech Podcast each week.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.