Pragmatic 63: Making Up Lines Then Reading Between Them

6 April, 2015

CURRENT

In this final episode John talks about the making of Pragmatic, highlights, lowlights, criticisms and advice on whether you should have listened to it or any podcasts at all. Then Vic grills John for information.

Transcript available
Welcome to the final pragmatic pragmatic was a weekly discussion show the contemplated the practical application technology by exploring the real-world trade-offs we looked at how great ideas were transformed into products and services have changed our lives this is our final episode this episode is sponsored by St Vincent and the iOS and shopping shopping is a collaborative shopping list at that simple and easy-to-use with great features like pocket locks smart ordering and real-time collaborative updating shopping lists aren't to do list and shopping doesn't just help organise your shopping items but it helps you shopping from start to finish it's free on the iOS App Store so check it out that's a bit better ASAP I ENT – pair into.com/pragmatic for more information this episode is also sponsored by Hopper Harbour is a domain registrar that stands apart from the rest simple easy to use and understand with a valet service for your domain transfer making it simply the best way to buy and manage your domain names check out harbour@hover.com/pragmatic and find out just how easy it is to grab your own domain transfer your existing domain hover using the coupon code exactly to get 10% off your first purchase let hover valet your domain stress away today will be talking about though more during the show on your host John Geagea and joined again today by my co-host the council has gone under John Harriet that mixed feelings be honest arm because this is the middle last episode of pragmatic i.e. are have mixed feelings arm I do need a break I'd very much do need a break arm and although we are recording is on April 1 this is not a forced choke some get that out the way you that you're not rolling the Internet I am not rolling these nano so I'm not arm so you I don't do the whole April fools thing I find to build a childish but that's okay arm are year so arm the last episode shows me very different to every other episode because it's can be broken down several pieces but arm the first bit is going to be our me doing my spill I guess and arm the second part is going to be our head over to you are and you can then run the rest of the episode are as you see fit and you're free to ask any questions you may want to ask arm problems but whatever you like it's free for all floors yours which again is this a very different from how run press the episode so the first half arm I want to start is a bit of a retrospective are I'm not gonna do excerpts and stuff on the show but I do want to go through some something some people may find interesting sums show statistics highlights another favourite episodes least favourite episodes are titles and that sort of thing how the podcast of self fitted in and didn't fit in what worked what didn't our why I made it key decisions are made along the way what I've learned are addressed in the comms, criticisms of the show are and of me arm I will actually ask that the question should you listen to this podcast at all arm and when I should be listening upon castle frankly are and if you should what types or durations are and then the next question should you make a podcast yourself and if so what type of style locking expect can you make a living from it that sort of thing and now I also want to explore all about sponsors Patriot and are the commitment angle and I have already talked about episode 59 are with Eric SR job versus hobby angle so arm I will not be covering that this episode Dara feed episode 5091 my thoughts on that summary conviction sounds good right so let's start with some statistics because there are lies damned lies and John city statistics apparently so arm being a statistician arm in my job at Nortel where I was doing statistical our analysis of failures from field for different things are as cumulative a different data opinion I guess or of statistics and I had before then so I don't see statistics is quite being the arm frustrating thing that a lot of people and dismiss it but you can learn things I guess so was sister were see what we come up with some a lifetime of the pod casts are there were approximately three quarters of a million downloads are in total across all episodes and types of which there were 82 are discrete entries and that in that list had I continued to make the show are until I reached 100 episodes in total are wilder hundred and eight entities including follow-up I would have easily crossed the 1 million downloads mark that would medical number arm to have reached but in the end it is the number and I guess that's the point right is that you what's on number numbers the number and have a really matter before our regarding New Year's Eve news day that sort of thing and birthdays aside I know people like numbers and statistics so I guess begun five episodes they averaged about 80% of the downloads of the main episodes are clearly about 1/5 or thereabouts of the listeners were not interested in follow-up and down what's interesting is that I spoke to a found show are who actually my first when I first met this particular individual he are he was found show he knew who I was and I had no idea he was so arm he sort of walked in this meeting room and had this very strange expression on his face as look at me and unlike arm hi I'm on John Geagea has ago and is like I know who you are and is give me this sort of nervous northern white KE year. That's good lovely and he went on to explain later on during the during the eight was a factory acceptance test actually I call a meeting but anyway factors are assessed and at the end of the out during the offence he then explained he was found show any feed actually listen to all arm most of the episodes so fast forward a few months you know we were talking as were going get some are going to grab a coffee as we are as we occasionally do whenever in the same building and Dawood talk about his attitude towards follow-up and he basically is his sentiment was arm that he thought I did a reasonably good job of covering the most important topics during the main episodes so why would he have to listen the follow-up he didn't see the point was something I had really considered you know I mean I think it's really awfully terribly nice of him to say that but I I have followed episodes generally because I feel I've missed something or have made a mistake that I need to have a correction arm but I do wonder how many of those one for the people's have that opinion I don't know obviously and I may never know factoring is a very good chance that I will never know and that's fine anyway so there were 63 main episodes an average of 9.6 thousand downloads per episode there were 19 follow-up episodes an average of 7.7 thousand per follow-up episode total duration not including this episode is 89 hours 59 minutes and 27 seconds so rounded up by about 33 seconds and you've got 90 hours of listening mostly listening to me droning on about all sorts of rubbish to the go longest episode was episode 62 sent into the void baby two hours 51 minutes and 10 seconds the longest follow-up episode was coffee part a that was one hour 22 minutes and my second effects sorry Marco again shortest episode was 31 minutes seven seconds that was episode for the morality issue and on that particular one I'd like to add that was the point at which I split out follow-up from the main episodes so technically when I recorded that episode the original and so was about are an hour and a bit long and are I split out into in a short episode at that point so perhaps had been a standalone episode recording it may be slightly longer than any case it still has the Crown is the shortest episode of all times they cannot along shortest follow-up episode two minutes 48 seconds that was episode 24 downloaded versus screened part a if you want to download them all you're looking at the MP3 feed comes and weighs in at 4.34 GB total 1.47 GB for the AAC feed okay small stats for you the most downloaded episodes were in order our coffee episode 30 at just over 26,000 downloads the sledgehammer solution episode 3719.5 thousand downloads watch this time and space episode 38 and 15.5 thousand downloads more than one quarter of the episodes have more than 10,000 downloads the least downloaded episodes arm and not including follow-ups and monitoring the most recent three episodes because that's not fair because our you can only really fair I think in fairness count one month our figures for weeks so the one month our figures are the one the best numbers to use their sewer not including are those most recent three episodes so are the least downloaded episodes based on those are exclusion criteria are the least downloaded as you say data I say data file which was the scar episode episode 48 only 6 1/2 thousand downloads are downloaded versus screened episode 24 followed then by stocks net episode 17 now then hold those thoughts because we can build a correlation releasing a try as voted by listeners there were a total of 40 submissions and a hang on I should rephrase that 40 unique submissions by listeners in total thank you to everyone participated I really do appreciate it got some interesting results now the note is on the voting right because our I had to have some kind of I had to start and finish it with the same dataset otherwise is an invalid sample wild and invalid's arm you is this episodes 159 inclusive I did not allow people to vote on follow-up episodes because I consider five episodes to be a component of the main episode is on a single topic therefore arm if you like the fog episode you were implicitly liking the main episode along with can argue whether or not that is that is fair or not but that's the way I did it so episodes 159 of that the most popular episode as voted by fans of the show was episode to the boundary problem now very early on after about episode 15 or 16 got exactly the same results is no question that the battery problem episode two remains the fan favourite of the entire series which is which is cool it's interesting arm however the one that surprised me was it was only one vote shy of tying first place and that was episode 57 which was lap band bypass gastric sleeve and that Connor blew my socks off because that is not really a tech topic that some medical topic and is very personal topic actually are and honestly I'm grateful very grateful that my wife agreed to come on to recall that with me I had nothing but positive responses from that considerable amount and on a quite stunned actually that will it was it was agreed episode she's a bit of a rug store in a row and you guessed it had great chemistry together it was really fun to listen to while thinking I mean yet we do and I would go good good chemistry one of the things that arm that I'm very grateful for is the life I found a woman like I can I can have that those sorts of our in-depth sorts of conversations were armed with which is which is wonderful so are I guess it worked out well but so moving on though type of third-place though are was items of most popular voted was stocks net episode 17 and coffee episode 30 was type of third-place so flip side of that least popular so these were all tied the least populous I gave them an option sliding scale 15 or no opinion and I therefore I'm taking the good with the bad here and here's the bad so these are the three tied least popular episodes episode 20 the critical path where I talked about project management and Gantt charts I'm actually not surprised to hear that above on the handlebars was my experimental Christmas episode you okay remember that what it message received message received and the automation episodes coming on it say something that was episode 51 and Eiko I guess I feel like I didn't do that episode justice because our there are a few emissions I made in that episode and I hadn't had time to do this sort of research that I would have liked to do so by me I totally get why all of those episodes so what we take away from all of this because I just put all this out there just for the that's interesting thing about and do a little bit of correlation and see what we can come up with so first of all first take away I got three big takeaway from this abuse in your thoughts first one is neither of the two top to voted highest feedback episodes appear in the top list of the most downloaded episodes so that interesting one of the least downloaded episodes is tied as third favourite by yellow with by far the most downloaded episode so that stocks net and coffee they were voted as one of the most to the most popular episodes and yet one had the most downloads and one had effectively one of the least interesting it is so what is the translation for both of those when you consider them together and that is I think that the number of downloads and episode gets is not relative to how good the episode is how popular it is with the listeners and hence therefore advertisers should not care so much because downloads are the metric that we use the app for judging you and that that advertisers would use sponsors will use as a litmus test when not give you a chance obviously you have to do a run of it to know for sure how it's gonna go there but the problem is with a variable audience in a varying audience it's actually very difficult to guarantee any anything because the correlation simply doesn't exist what you think we were both. There are a lot of variables in there that are really canard to account for the predicted sure okay now there's a lather that that's that's not even based on your show itself can be what else was born on in people's lives what else is going on on the Internet who else is releasing big popular episodes that we absolutely that's true there is no question in my mind that the coffee episodes download figures were heavily influenced by the fact that overcast had just been released and that it was you mean it's the air was for the want of a better way of putting it it was Marco week for Marco month or market and he appealed anything he was Mr popular people were interested so you know then again you can argue the topic you know coffee is something a lot of people drink therefore a lot of people could be interested in my thoughts on it however the coffee follow-up episode arm did not download anywhere near as many and Marco subsequent appearances on the show did not also arm rank highly in terms of downlights so I think that some of it as you say is affected by our proximity to other events in the world are so anyway they go just food for thought interesting are let's keep in mind a I don't run a podcast network obviously I can only go based on the numbers that I've got in front of me and obviously my show is very different in so many ways to what else is out there so not sure how many conclusions you can seriously draw given those constraints I just thought that that was an interesting conclusion keep moving so for the people that voted in I promised something I said that I would randomly choose three people that left their names and email addresses arm as a thank you are as you know stickers available and stick your mouth about a month are the sole okay our people have obviously been enjoying I see the occasional fight on Facebook your Facebook and Twitter can this me not Facebook are arm the composer Facebook if you want but you if if you have stickers and you want to take a photo and chamois we're stuck that's cool I don't mind arm probably favourite all sable retweeting for posterity but beyond that some yellow is the fact that you guys are far there have you ever have enjoyed them enough that that's fantastic arts anyway and so three winners are as randomly selected so before I actually arm tell you the names Eisner tell you how I randomly figured out and I do nothing a laugh or cry were slightly but here we go and I goes ahead I figure out who to pick well I figured that with about 40 entries is about the number of people in a month by the way arm of those 40 only about 30 of them are left their names there about 10 anonymous entries are submissions as I figure with acid figure let's do let's let's do days a month showing how you figure it out and make it based on the show well what I did as I took an episode sorts and download number sought in lives in I picked three episodes of the same download count essentially the January 2015 I was my the point in time that I picked either sought from that set out to be episodes 1225 and 18 so then I took those episodes publish states in the month and then I picked those in the order of the list based on the date that they were submitted all rather submission order that they were submitted in out whereby the day of the month was the right number so that sufficiently randomly think are the athletes felt certain certainly tenuous but anyway the go so unlock estate if all names but arm the winners were Caer Eric and Russ and I will be in touch with each of you guys after the show goes live are to get your details and I will send you off your free sticker so thank you so much guys for your submissions are really appreciated it is nice nice little way to 1 to our dads and the show I think is in the wit of our listener feedback about favourite episodes and some okay next thing or two about is my evolution and the evolution of John evolution of John I don't want that to sound to Dickie Bird the truth is that just for the hell of it I thought the way I approached podcasting and the way I talk into this Mike talk to you talk to guests you know and interact with the Internet has changed dramatically in the last two years because of the show no ifs no buts no question I'm far more confident and far more relaxed behind this and this in a bit of metal and then I have been previously so just the heck of it I went back and I risen episodes one and two that I was in the 18 as well as pivotal episodes and arm and 58 arm just to pick a few went back I risen to apps view episodes of existential as well go make 2012 and is really clear to me how much more me I've become you like how much more of my personality is coming through in the most recent 20 or so episodes maybe of the show as you get more relaxed and comfortable yet it's not just mean it's not just this is not this is not an act this is this is more me if you know me in real life this is more me than that I was in the beginning I was far more as I was not more nervous I had my loud iPod court like super ultra professional but certainly my professional face on a bit in the early episodes was bit concerned about how it would be X accepted or interpreted I guess arm I wasn't sure the name would would do would be interested in show like this so I feel like I've fallen into a good groove with podcasting the last Geo probably through four months I think in particular are I will admit though there is one thing if it was the tangential you will know that on pragmatic I do censor myself a bit so I'd because I hate editing out swear words so I do tend to swear a little bit more in real life that the go if you want him his swearing was the tangential gas anyhow so well understood that was worth the was worth mentioning so why are okay feedback about the show so iTunes start iTunes arm honestly it is an absolute pain in the neck with iTunes ratings and reviews globally little you know why Vic arm if it's anything like the apt story they lead on aggregate demand in the one place for you you have to pick a region and and then click the next region and then take the next region exactly now that's exactly right and that's because arm iTunes just manage that way around there are a few services for apps that actually aggregate that they do for you I would assume they would probably work for podcasting although I haven't tried a yes they do and I'm not in any of those because they will charge what I think is a ridiculous amount of money for such a simple service there was a piece of software called comment cast and you would later do to monitor two shows an art that you have to pay and I was gladly happy to pay are was in my five dollars US is something I forget what was was much but the developer had just been overthrown in Tanzania because iTunes because Apple kept changing subtle things in the backend and it was easy as he just moved on with his with his life and it happens and that's fine so I keep on using it Arbor Day I noticed some of the flakiness so it went from being a rocksolid app to being a very flaky app such that are you would you do a refresh and it would come up with a list and you have you've lost about 30 reviews are the okay when they go they are still there is is that there is something funny in the interface of app store was down or didn't respond quick enough for you insert reason I don't and understand all the details as to what went wrong organises and stop working reliably so what I tell you is far as I can tell is so so far as I can tell there are about 95 also ratings and are within that is a subset of about 60 written reviews in iTunes for the show globally are there was one asset is 13 star written review to four-star written our reviews and all other written reviews are five stars are there are 31 star ratings 12 star rating and 13 star rating beyond the reviews I mentioned before and one four-star rating the rest are all five stars so that gives an overall show rating of 4.77 out of five and I have really good I'm pretty proud of that I'm pretty proud of that I should be I am I show how I'm so happy that so many people were kind enough to leave such nice reviews in iTunes are and admittedly a lot of the listeners have now moved across to overcast are some some also use pocket Carson sound and they don't have the sorts of farm that sort of a feedback mechanism you can debate as much as you like whether or not our one star reviews me anything or five-star reviews mean anything in the whole thing on bike well everyone loves you hate you and love whatever that's fine I get it it's okay in the end like a set of numbers just a number but I'm just grateful for the people of left such nice reviews and only the gravel pit we gave you one star review unless she took the time to tell me what you thought so initiate that that's cool okay site regarding Ulrich as the nose reviews feel free to get this out if you want I know you've been absent from Twitter a lot lately but are actually get a workflow I put out a week or so ago that actually opens whatever podcast you are listening to in a tomb so you can view it if you what you saw that that's great in and on my ship and link to that machine and so were it's a good that's good idea to go away giving feedback because arm because overcast only has a recommend a recommend feature airway is usually such a hassle to go and look at the show in iTunes leader after the fact the drain review and this way it is right why you listen to it you can use that they seriously then get that straight out in iTunes directly to the shell that you are listening to an seems little but a few steps in the way the comes upon cast listening workflows your your starting to compete with the Rugova teaching are not sure about that but I think I'll take it as a complementary planning CT scan have to be careful know he's gonna watch it and you're coming to him to get him okay so arm more feedback so I get I get email arm and that's cool I have never once said don't email me because I want people email me I want people to tell me what they think of them to add the conversation I want them to interact and so we can make this better for everybody and well be careful what you wish for so there were just over 600 individual items of feedback for the entire duration of this show feedback was not tracked against five episodes only on the main topics since as I said before follow-up along the main topic hands on average you're looking at about 10 items of feedback for every episode across all mediums so that includes feedback form Twitter direct email is the first arm 20 also episodes the show I didn't have a feedback form are on the website was still going via Fiat Lux are so I often gave out the show email address are so the point is that that's come from a variety of different dance forms over the yards the past 30 years so in terms of quantities per episode some more stats for you the shows that had the most feedback were coffee not surprisingly episode 30 art that had approximately 70 our individual unique potty items of feedback our e-reader versus our paper will came in third place and I guess not surprisingly at the battery problem was second in second place in terms of the feedback there was one bucket however of feedback that was not an episode because it was generic and dark the generic bucket of thank youse was 150 so it's arm it sort of our wasn't an episode but me I was a bucket of worthy of mention because I would I would flag as emails came in which episode the feedback related to our & so forth so so I could track in my responses and an answer to anyone okay I have responded privately to every email that I have received and yes that includes the emails that came in just today so I just want to say as of this moment maybe the emails will never stop perhaps you know what for the for this moment in time at least I can say accurately is currently true that I was responded to every single email privately that I have now via Twitter or Facebook I've I've either acknowledged that by favouring at mentioning or replying directly are on Twitter or at.net are all on the show in fob site so if I've ever missed anyone who's ever sent me any response of any kind please accept my sincere apologies arm it was never my intention I want to make sure that I respond everybody so arm honestly once that is passed to me about a new show is that the feedback will slow down eventually end to me it was a highlight of doing this because most of the feedback I got not only was it positive but most of it was very intelligent very well thought out and very thought-provoking and is you it carried on the conversation in ways that are have simply not been possible for me are when I've had this sort of the sorts of the discussions with with other friends because the problem is when I'm having a conversation about a topic that interests me most of my friends my social circles arm in I guess" the real world arm will not share my passion or interest for the topic race people listen to the show from all around the world you know if there listening to a topic that really strikes a chord with them I will hear back from them generally and that's a very different level of feedback that I will get in a casual conversation so that is something that I think is unique to this sort of experience and frankly it really was the highlight of doing the show because people take time out of their lives not just a list of the show and that's huge enough but when they put take more of their time to put together an email or even to send you a thank you Tweet I mean it really does mean the world to me and how it always has and always will so again thank you to everyone arm that has done now I acknowledge the fact that compare this to was really really popular levels of farm you are pod casts or TV shows or whatever people are become popular to levels beyond arm what what what this is for me you I can get that level of inundation that some of the podcast hosts will complain about you and because of that it is easy for me to say no DO I respond to all them yet that's because there was only 600 in total for the entire duration of the show what it was 600 and episode I think I struggle to find a case just a tad exactly and I never crossed into that territory and you know what I actually think that's great because it's meant that I could respect people's time and their effort and I could respect the listeners that took the time to respond so it's been a good balance and I don't wish necessarily four more nought I wish for any less so there you go are again I can't say thank you enough to everyone who said both good and bad things during the course the show you made a show better arm and is I think it's our it's been good for everybody okay now I need to talk about some common criticisms are about the show but before I do that I'd like to talk benefit sponsor and that ASAP and pair now saving pair decided after years of being annoyed and frustrated with the existing to do our to-do list apps when they went shopping that they'd create an iOS app for the iPhone it's an ethical shopping now is it's hard to do list apps out there and I've used lots of them over the years but going shopping is a very specific use case for a list if you're shopping for more than just yourself than shopping really begins to shine the best way to describe shopping as a fully collaborative shopping list at that simple and easy to use I picked it up and figure how to use a perimeter immediately it's not cluttered with options doesn't presume you live a specific country or present hundreds of options for different kinds of barter or milk or bread is type in whatever you want to remember buying a list and an amount if you want is optional and there is you list it remembers what you've entered for the future and even the order in which you buy and mark them off the list as you walk through the supermarket now that's cool enough but when you share your list by email or by message or however to your spouse your partner you then they can add and mark off and reorder items in the list as they need to anyway so I tried this real time between two iPhones and the sink happens in less than about three seconds that was over 3G however there is more see I also love the pocket lock feature saviour security conscious like me and you've got a passcodes that is nothing more annoying than having to lock your phone slip in your pocket then get back out again at the end of the I'll just unlock it again to look at your list well pocket lock disables the screen when detectives in your pocket and re-enables it instantly when it is removed passcodes no fuss and it works really well to my wife and I with use this several times now and down where we used to note things and reminders to do apps or even on paper now wheeze when others go shopping we shopping see open shopping indicate you're about to start shopping energy allocation to tax a store that you shopping at and on the shared list the other person or persons will get a notification you about start shopping now if they remember that you they want to grab something way that they can tap that notification jump into the shed list and quickly add that item it will appear on my list as I'm in the shop and I can then grab it while in their brilliant those last minute you know is there anything else you need phone calls you don't need them anymore there is no risk business because it's free to try after the first month with no ads after which it becomes ad supported none of Noah's nails functionality is just as a product that but if you do want to help out the developers you can in our purchase three or 12 month add removal for 199 or 499 US respectively now the update to fully support I was a knife and six and 6+ has been live in the store for a couple months now is and is got the additional features of the low reachability features of the larger phones are like pulldown to add new items as all had a fresh coat of paint are and you can also move checked items around the bottom the list if you want to clutter the longer lists that's that's now possible as well so please visit this URL safety and that SAPI ENT – pair is into.com/pragmatic and follow the links to the app store from there and that will help out show you certainly open the store but if use that URL in your browser choice it'll help out pragmatic thank you once again to save in pairs shopping at for sponsoring pragmatic okay next is criticisms all positive Eric Galt now let me have it let you have what they let me have it so first and foremost is the follow-up so I have copped this on and off I've had both sides of people a lot of people hate it but it's important that I mention this and just recently about a month ago arm first I had this some criticism for a while but are got the ER criticism that so lacking integrated follow-up broke the continuity of the show and is I guess the whole point of breaking outs the follow-up from the main episodes was that each individual episode would be a topic encapsulated unto itself interested in DRM you was in the DRM episode if you're not interested in Skarda you don't listen to your that the scar episodes if you're not interested in our amateur radio then you don't listen to that episode you there is no add I'm not trying to create and I was never try to create a podcast that was must listen because it's this can be a little bit of follow-up from the previous episode and then went into a new topic and then we leave it open and then you have to this next week for more insight this is not a serial podcast this is a weekly podcast with a discrete set of topics I want people to be other choose so I see it as a is an improvement I see it as a refinement of the medium I see is something different and honestly I can totally understand why and will talk about love this about about this later on as to why I think that's become the way it's done quite a quote the weights tunnel supposed to be done and continuity is not always the point as far as I'm concerned if I thought it was the point I would have done it that way in fact I started out doing a show that way and about three or four episodes in I decided you know what let's be bold and do something different and I think the most part it's been a positive experience because people can then choose what they want to do rather than forcing people to fast forward because only times you listen to an episode of podcast X with a talk about an episode from a month ago that you haven't listened to that and not interested in knowing anything about and they're making all these references and you don't understand any of worse than that let's say was absent a month ago that you did listen to it with a lot of water under the bridge between then and now and you forgotten about it so God when I need to go back and relisten because they're afraid something that they said in the making a joke about something I don't understand what they're laughing about as they get a more confused passport passport passport are good at finding on a new topic you know I've lost count of the number of times I've done that with miscellaneous podcast levy is not a single anyone out because a lot of them do it however that was not single biggest criticism that I got about show believe it or not the biggest criticism that I had about pragmatic was that the show is not very pragmatic engineering now under start with some dictionary definitions our arrests is because I need to prove this to myself that if anything else so Mac OS X dictionary which is based on the Oxford dictionary says deal and that pragmatic probing pragmatic is dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations Merriam-Webster dictionary says that it's dealing with the problems that exist in a specific situation in a reasonable and logical way instead of depending upon ideas and theories relatively similar I think honestly that I actually did that but where it follows as I would say so here I think so but the problem is I found is that people have actually got a very very varying ideas on what pragmatism actually is so when I say I am trying to be pragmatic let's make a pragmatic choice different people have a different idea of what that actually means and they don't go back to the dictionary definition of so a typical examples and feedback I get from time to time was some I obsess over sometimes over a little design detail like the colours used in a display so if I'm displaying a certain alarm what colour it is now when I obsess about colours it has nothing to do with I don't think the colours work together arm or something vague or artistic you know so I only care if those colours distract from the alarm message indication let's say that might be missed because someone may be colourblind so that's a practical consideration it's not an opinion based on it that it is baseless it's like well from an artistic point of view I think that arm this colour is nice as I will yet it's like totally your opinion man and that's great but that's not a pragmatic choice that is an opinionated choice so that's I guess some some people either can't don't or won't see that that way maybe they won't I do know arm people alive bit of work with me know that I rent a lot and I guess that comes across in a show but anyway I read a lot about stalking why I have the opinions I do and I read about the why I believe the things I believe because I feel I need to justify to myself and every time that I do it is the justification that I actually have some chronological foundation for why I have the opinions that I do because if it turns out that I can't actually back up something that I believe with a logical foundation all abandon that line of thinking the one where I can justify to me that's my definition of making a pragmatic choice is making one that has has a practical logical foundation that is arrived at methodically as opposed to I dislike this because it's like my opinion man and that's the end of my argument because is not an argument in my opinion so an SME especially in engineering it's it's all about trade-offs is not just the practicalities of the design it the functionality are the aesthetic's they all matter but so does cost so does the deliverable being actually delivering something on time yet is lots of other considerations then just how practical a design is or how functional it is or or what colour it is now you have to still be able to deliver this thing in some reasonable timeframe for a less than infinite amount of money so you know that's why one of the key taglines of the show is you exploring the real world trade-offs because that's what engineering means to me is it's about trade-offs it's people get hung up on their pet peeves their pet hates in and they they they let that cloud their judgement and they don't see the bigger picture and sometimes it's okay to do that so she can step back and give yourself a reality check and realise what you're doing I've had jobs in recent times right been able to do that I've had that the ability to dive in get very nitpicky and then take a step back and say you know what I've analysed this I've pull this apart I found all these things that need improvement people look and they not miss a yes okay now let's go to list the ones were actually going to fix you and maybe maybe 1/10 of the issues I brought I get fixed but that's fine because it's all about trade-offs I can't fix everything that is wrong I have to choose somehow get so big about anyway so I guess might at the absolute is about picking your battles it's about being pragmatic and picking the right battles so anyway I guess are it's the yes is about maintaining focus on the bigger picture in the end so honestly if you can't explain why you think a certain thing have a certain belief you probably thought about enough I think you should be thinking harder and longer and thinking more about what they do and I think opinion should be based more on evidence in fact because bison emotion are are the enemy of pragmatism and I've tried very very hard not just in the show but in my life arm to be as pragmatic as I can be and hence the other tiler show me I do not otherwise succeed in fact the reason we sure I haven't but that's okay because it's it's okay to have a set of guiding principles and try to follow them if you don't always succeed unless you trying so that these as I tell myself hopefully that's enough but anyway I guess that that the show has been a pretty good reflection on that struggle that I've had with other people and with myself actually to be honest but you people in the real world as well as on the Internet you know and it comes down to show me a better more practical way with a better overall outcome and I will follow that idea and I will follow you it's a simple arm so if you can't don't or won't do that I can't respect that and I will simply continue to do what I believe to be the most pragmatic thing and honestly arm yet that's the answer was ordered say about that so if you still don't think the show was was very pragmatic that's cool that's fine arm it's all good sore good man so I'll grant and assess old girl man okay next big criticism of the rank not letting the other host talk so this is an interesting one the great thing I guess about the cohosts on this show meaning of course yourself and previously Ben Alexander is that both of you understood a and understand present and what the show is about and be can still help to keep me on track you from wandering too far off or asked good counterpoint questions when they need to be asked that I think the audience for the most part understand that the problem with guest hosts is that unless their fans of the show they don't understand that and I think it's more about an interview style show where I asked them a few questions and I talk to out every guest host except the two being Nick Hoglund and my wife Kirsten the first time that I spoke to them verbally was when they appear on the show okay and of those half of those were not fans of the show in other words I had listened to a single episode beforehand and honestly who is not relevant the point is arm that's okay Sammy would assign it when you were to cohosts right yourself and Ben but there were 17 guest hosts in the course of the show and in order of appearance they were my curly forested Yusef Clifford Joss centres Guy English Casey was Jason Snell Marco Armitage Joel Housman David Smith Russell Ivanovich Nick Hoglund Federico TG John Syracuse are Breanna Wu Kirsten Geagea and Eric Hess now that's the list in total when ever the planets aligned I suppose with expectations and the show our preparation for the topic knowledge of the topic that we want to cover arm I got I think pretty good results with guest hosts sometimes a really though they really were great episodes like Federico but other times when I got guests on arm I would gets arm some feedback emails that went something along the lines of when you got someone amazing on your show like person blah you should shut up and let them talk and I got that feedback semi-regularly when I had specially bigger name in terms of their right popularity on Twitter other pod casts when they would come on the show as a people of regular listeners are pragmatic they knew that it was an interview show but imagine if you're a new listener and you're only listening because you're the biggest arm you know person blah fan in the world and then there's this jerk this Geagea guy is won't shut up right now you request the right lesson for me it wasn't for the guest so far as it in AA disagree with that you did well okay that's my premise it is your show what yes it is my show and that and a guest of the guests what yes I know but the point is that in the situations I can't win because I I agree with that yet so the bottom line is every guest on the show is a gamble arm it messes with the format it messes of the continuity to show in some ways but the point is that I didn't want to pigeonhole the show I am and sometimes arm gets non-ongoing never-ending conversation where one episode was in the next and you know inconsistency is King Nike it's always the same 234 people whatever it is depending on the forecast referring to it wasn't like that in want to be like that and when I have a set list of things I want to touch on you know sometimes getting a guest on who knows a lot more about or is edged into a manner topic is beneficial I need shake things up a little bit and I think on the whole it's been a positive and this Ben net positive for the show however that said arm I typically run my show is a very tight ship so as a set list of things I want to touch on the orders very important because the way I like to structure my thoughts and especially in more complicated topics that the order that you cover the topics is very important so why think it is anyway and there's a look at some is a lot of foundation building you've gotta do before we can reach a final conclusion so often guests arm will not appreciate that and they will jump around sometimes I go off topic and it sorta distracts me from the order that I don't try to follow in show so that's the other side of the argument so are and I guess every episode are pragmatic arm with maybe one or two exceptions has had a definitive conclusion or set of conclusions are not really open and the new can disagree with the conclusion but there still is one it's not a never-ending conversation so I guess in many respects the criticisms of having guests on and and and and the structure of changing the show sometimes as a result I think that in fairness it's not fair it's like it's like you can't apply those criticisms to a show like this because it's so different I stand by my decision to bring guests on arm where the topics truly benefited from their input their experience on that topic are but it's difficult the first time you speak to someone are in aid to have an instant rapport with them it doesn't happen very often and I certainly found that there are certain guests arm that I felt that I clicked with straight away and other ones where are where I just where we didn't and that's okay that there's this young that's just chemistry right and this it's one of those weird things about the human experience right so anyone arm I got feedback that's are some some people said the show's format was confusing arm and that I needed to figure out what show actually was but ultimately I think that's sort of the wrong way to think about the problem because that's sort of like the Henry Ford problem ask people what they want to say to my faster horse well you know it's like everyone says they want a podcast that stood different while I will sound saying you give miners different they complaints different K anyway so I think in the end the right question was not about figuring out what the show was what format should be it's just getting the balance right between cohosts and guest host and picking the right guest hosts to have the show and that was the balance that I need to strike and I think the last probably third or thereabouts of the shows running off I think I feel I forgot that balance right where I have guest hosts on periodically but you with having your Vic as my stable co-host for the Marth vast majority of the time I think that's worked the best personally arm and I have some feedback that affect as well as its origin develop a rapport in an hour and a chemistry work with frequently swapping our guests until the there's a certain benefit definitely damning established so and And arm yes I think it worked better than any anyway irrespective of whether you thought about the balance right or wrong in the end you know I just as America's last episodes but I'm still proud of what I've I've created over the last two years so arm just on getting the arm right guest host are I've had feedback on this as well it's hard to pick a good guest host for a given topic for a few reasons I know by listening to people at a listening reading what people say on Twitter listening to them on their pod casts if I had them are and so on I could tell that they had an interest in certain subjects you are like the weather patterns or accessibility or RSI for example get in touch with them I propose the topic that I thought they'd like to talk about but often they would come back and say – I'd really like to talk about something else instead because I'd always give them a backup listens to his list of potential topics and I'm considering so i.e. I didn't want to say I want to give them the maximum opportunity to say yes or no and if they didn't like the R topic I was pushing suggesting that perhaps we should try to talk about that they can feel free to choose another one well again it sometimes sometimes it worked at that moment mainly was a good choice sometimes perhaps not so good but that's okay arm I can't know as I can't predict chemistry but more importantly I can't make the other person talk so yes it was so don't give you the chance to talk while that's not really true it's more a case of they want to have to want talk and what I found is that when I've had guests on the show that already have another podcast they had no trouble talk at all the more than happy in the act that it was the ones that did not have a regular shows all regular pod casts that ran of any of any real length at all arm those are the ones that tend to struggle a bit more I think and I don't think that anything other than now rewind back to my comment about my evolution starting pod casts like back in 2012 to where I am now that's all it is it is not a reflection on anything other than exactly the same thing I went through and that's fine okay so go for more arm for more criticisms I will address arm okay the next big one list taking the show away from Felix I still get feedback from time to time and I live quite publicly discussed my reasons why a rehash at all but I think it's definitely I can't gloss over it it's it's something that needs to be just discussed quickly again I think as part of this arm so I see cop some flak when I took a show indie when I left Felix at I'd been heavily involved with Fiat Lux at that point and I was writing up insanely detailed show notes for the new consolation site and for a brief time I I thought that was actually the best approach I was Solo's bawdy night I thought it would be our it was the way to go however I had the time to think when I had my weight loss surgery and was out of action for a month and is you I looked over the numbers and I looked at the feedback we're getting from listeners both publicly and privately and I wrote about this on contact distortion arm episode pragmatic on consolation and I asked listeners I said what do you the listener think is exactly the phrase I used the answer overwhelmingly was yes the new notes look nice that's it not enough people actually cared and that's I think the shame that it's kinda like saying well I'm now forcibly painting arm decorative art on your car is to look nice but the majority of people look on sale that's nice but I still like a red car or a plain black car or whatever you know or avoid car windows like white cars but I know they're at their so my point is that in a psych listeners told me what they thought and that the truth was that none of people actually cared because the listener podcast to listen to the podcast not to read show notes and that's the reality I'm sorry about the reality so they want to hear me talk about a topic not right about a topic because if they want me to write about it are like writing detailed notes then take distortion would get four times the pages that does right pragmatic is far more popular than my blog that's that's reality so people listen to podcasts that I read them so was having great show notes is great normal is not matters most about the show and now I'm hosting everything I can see those numbers and I can tell you the show notes get get get their links click somewhere between 1/50 to 1 100 is many times the downloads get the episode to download on average people just don't follow them by generally only that the idea of the shows are pragmatic I guess has become it's a place to turn if you're more interested in learning about a given topic you know so if you're if you're happy with the content of the episode you don't feel the need to go through and and and doing more you're not interested in the topic anymore that's fine the shards of their if you want but if you don't that's that's fine so is a series of links so the reason that this is important understand is that this is one of the driving reasons and if I do break up all the reasons that was one of the biggest ones was the overhead of preparing all of those notes when I write notes I don't write an essay I write.points pages of.points to make sure arm you sometimes I think very carefully about the wording of things if I something I specifically mention all agonise over the wording and having quotes not say on my way to read this specifically because that specifically how I feel I want to be misconstrued pertaining to show notes detailed show notes that are more conversational than a less just some some engineer scrap.point collection features frankly what my notes look like you is not something that can be turned in an article to take distortion ringing like that so it's a lot of extra work in the overhead of preparing those long show notes the value add seems to be better to be put into preparing more detailed show notes are then it was to reduce the amount of Spanish are on preparing for the episode and then spending more of it creating a more detailed chance so that was the that was the trade-off so ultimately Ben and I were moving in different directions in where he want to take consolation and essentially when my time was being spent in doing the work for the show and I thought it was best at that point we parted ways arm before it went to much further so are ultimately pragmatic was my show in every sense of the word from the original concept of the preparation to pretty much the delivery of it everywhere. As it was my show and so it's interesting because some people arm don't see it like that which is kind of strange to me that I guess if you coming in from the colony was the first 20 episodes and suddenly am on title to Ben once more on episode 26 arm is great to get back to 26 arm our calendars dinner lies been very busy with arm with with theirs and everything in an axe and that's great that's fine art it's just that's arm go I night I was now to get back on so bottom line though is that listeners don't understand some of Paula some of the backgrounds of what was going on and why the transition happened Ganz arm taxi iMacs had some quite abusive feedback to be honest arm about that and I are it makes me sad sometimes but honestly arm Ben and I are still good friends are still are we still talk regularly and done arm in his ears he is a great guy and his work on some really cool stuff and I can't wait to see what comes out so I mean you always gonna keep on there in the background in peace is not going anywhere so you know watch this space so that the children I think it's a tough night because it is really good supplemental material but you do have to to focus the adult that that the attention to it's just one part of the equation at that that's that's not the end of it there is there is also a factor of whether a night that the host and the content producers can realistically fit that Ian and that that's a big factor that a lot of people just cant seem to understand for a referral most podcast is out there most of us are doing in this business most of us are making significant money out of it and it it it has to be a hobby and so you gonna go to give it a hobby timescale and usually somewhat you could put into it to you granted to droll realistic boundaries of what you can again put into it absolutely right that that the thing is that what Ben was doing with consolation was absolutely genuinely and I mean this completely was raising the bar yet you and definitely there is no question that was not the question know the question what you just said is the time investment required studying about professional productions write like things like serial it's not one guy two guys or two guys and a girl putting this together it's a team of people between the research you know that all this is the sound disturb the sound mixing and the recording and all that is done over multiple days and weeks just to put together an episode you know like TV shows and these production staff and this is not something one person does in their own hour or two people doing the bench vast majority of the work and hold down a full-time job doing some completely different in order to make ends meet so it it's tough so anyway I don't have any else to say really on that arm if more information is linked to the shards of oregano this before but I just thought it was important that I dress that arm and the game so next this feedback so are they feedback Amy follow-up so so people that pay attention will notice that the follow-up on the show has slowed down considerably in the last four months and a few people point this out to me and this has become a more recent criticism about the show is that there's been no follow-up in recent months or very little so why what happened feedback and follow-up requires some degree of preparation requires research and notes just like any main topic does so when you've got a main topic that you need to cover each week that time still needs to be spent preparing the notes for that episode and when responses show and the show was only sponsoring the main episodes there is no financial incentive pressure to cover the feedback so what you do you want to the best possible job in the main episodes as they're the ones that have the financial are incentive/penalty will talk about in a minute arm now I did actually have trouble getting sponsors to cover the feedback episodes because essentially there are a few reasons I think first of all no other podcast I know of splits them out so there was an educational aspects to that I had to educate sponsors this is the way that I do it and a lot of sponsors came back and said that's weird no one else does that I'd rather stick this main episodes thanks you know I made default episode slots I think very cheap but the problem is that they're not long enough so as I said before shortest promise of just under three minutes would you take a full three minutes and read in a 10 minute follow-up segment something that's pushing it you know it's bad balance for listeners and I wanted to respect listeners time so I had to restrict it to no more than one minute and read in a 10 minute follow-up segment let's say but only ever one and to sweeten the deal it was an exclusive arm you know follow-up sponsor for the entire month irrespective of the quality of follow-up slots by guaranteed a minimum of four because originally that was the plan however advertises sponsors in aid they were not as keen to jump on that unfortunately are they won't stick with the main episodes so essentially reached a point where the main episodes was where the interest was because you again as said the red episodes between 12 were white were 20% less on average than the main episodes are associated with so are yes that was one of the reasons another reason every episode every episode has a minimum overhead which is markdown file an MP3 and AAC file is encoded with its own meta data uploaded creating lives in you even if the episodes are short are they still carry that same overhead so having an extra episode of any kind follow-up or main is going to have additional workload now arm I've had a lot of people arm comments that a significance help with this locus before arm found show arm Simon told me face-to-face that you know the day he didn't care about the follow-up and again I'm still not sure what to make of that that really wasn't why I had II slowed right back down the follow-up it was made mainly because I had my hands full doing the notes for the episodes the main episodes that I didn't hour and I'd I'd gone back and responded to a lot of people individually so I sort of decided that that was sufficient to address that follow-up in some cases are I wish that I had more time so that I could have done a folder with a weekly show there's a lot of time pressure you just get one show out and start a prep for the next one and there is no break and I'm you you have a weekly show and was a little bit about that later as well however all these things aside honestly I think follow-up is episodes like you are the Barry problem had four follow-up segments copies follow-up was again the longest so are integral so long had to get Marco back again the following week or 2 to recall the apps that I actually got him on Skype for Simon I'm grateful that he was able to make the time to come back and talk about that because unlike our eyes because I am his busy guy so you know anyway arm so you other times I guess arm the feedback spin so big I didn't do as a follow-up I actually did as independent episodes so I know is not technically follow-up and you could argue yeah well that was relief of this episode I thought the topic was so big that I couldn't do it justice as follow-up I had to make its own discrete topic and the one I'm specifically referring to arm and a gentleman in question that did this is a guy, name of Nick Radcliffe mentioning before and show and he has the unique honour to have been the only listener to provide so much feedback I topic in this case the reader versus paper topic that it spawned two independent episodes as a direct result one privacy and one on DRM both with Seth Clifford as our guest host now I started addressing the feedback more personally arm and arm emailing out a lot of clarifications and correction so anyway alright so he's an epiphany that I had while an epiphany of sorts I guess along the way as is doing a show the more preparation that I did in the more depth I went to and the more defined the boundaries of the topic discussion were the less feedback I got now if you think about it that's not much of an epiphany can make sense right what doesn't make sense when you think about backwards to think about this way if you want to show that has lots of feedback it becomes an ongoing discussion with the Internet and don't do as much research because people were riding that Campbell were writing to correct you and that you will talk about the next week I'm not saying that other podcast do this intentionally but think about it think it through I think it's an interesting epiphany and of the live show K so just die stick with me to more criticisms to address and a live show so I got some people that were disappointed that the live show ended arm and is one address that it has had previously look I ended up partly for technical reasons because my upload them with this terrible as you know as you well know and Vic and as I complained about endlessly none it is really wasn't else complain I am aware partly because as you are you are aware so the partly because I think the show format specifically pragmatic show format didn't lend itself to that sort of interaction are I introduced the Q&A segment after the show and I thought that that help tremendously with separating the two but I found listeners did not see it that way live listeners did not see it that way ultimately are I also had work to the time and that pushed the time and date of the live show and that means that I had to move around a lot which made it less people overshot because it wasn't a regular timeslot some guest host that I had on our voice their written preference to not do the light show life all that compounded so I stopped in the light show I thought I will revisit that earlier this year but turns out arm I decided that I would enter show and is never come back I think that live as a pod is a dimension for pod casting I think it works for certain show formats and large networks has become a must have but let's be honest in terms of the number of downloads was the number of live listeners it really isn't worth the trouble that's the truth I think I have really properly not you it's for the true absolute hard-core fans depending on your shoulder format and you have to have the right show and the right format for it to work but is really not what pod casts are okay pod casts can be played whenever you like that's the point you don't want to be stuck I'll have to listen to pragmatic between nine and 11 the OPM or whatever time it works out to you in wave parlour world during right side while I'm busy I'm not awake know a lot of listeners sleep in half their luck but you know what you know the whole point upon because you can play back when if you want to so what you're doing is you're essentially your rewarding the loyal and time flexible for you listeners and their interaction with the show during the show distracts the majority of listeners that are attracted to a non-live noninteractive nature of a podcast and as a podcast popular in the first place so you're essentially working against the format so it's an interesting dimension but honestly I don't recommend it for the firm for the vast majority of people are doing pod casts I don't think it's bad exactly Icelandic and make sense bustle okay and of topic voting honestly arm I had to get a lot of PHP to make it work due to limitations in static man oh man you do not want to see that PHP you really really don't I'd accumulated so many great suggestions also at that point I had put on hold I had and I have enough still in the bank as it were for another 50 episodes no problem so I decided put on hold with every intention of rewriting it when Stanek are the bunch of updated functionality that was me understand make and by the time Stanley delivered some installers and level all that I decided you know what our morning show anyway so the show ends before I get that rewrite was really that simple arm and are that's it year so I moved to a different host it was a chance ministry monocytes I took the opportunity so the okay so getting close to the end of my segments should you listen to pod casts is the next topic earlier so arm don't jump to that conclusion I have reached that point yet because either talk about our second sponsor for this episode and what is the final sponsor are for pragmatic now be honest with you this is one of the sponsors that I always want to have a Michael Carson some point because I love this stuff so much having dealt with horrible registrars time and again my life to find one that was this good has been such a relief and I am of course referring to hover and hover they are a domain registrar that stand well apart from the rest owning and controlling your own domain is absolutely critical for developing and writing a blog running a business a project of you just want to keep the same email address for life or have had any presence you have any presence at all on the web domain is still the single best way for other people to find you and the best way to bind to manage your domain names is with hover if you currently have a domain name hover can help find the perfect one just for you I was sports a huge list of TLD's and you're not your these are the steps at 62 and there domain search is truly amazing and is type in your best idea and ill tell you not only whether that domain is available but suggested dozens of close matches that might be just as good or even better than your original suggestion sometimes you will suffer different hosting services offer a free domain name as part of the deal but make sure you read the fine print because often they will charge a mint to transfer the main out and leave you and when we need to leave and you could lose control of it so keeping control your domain using a service like hover puts you in the driver seat and in as little as five minutes you can be up and running with a new domain if you want obstacles are so easy to use and follow most people won't need any help to get set up at night if you do the support team is always available to help you out there famous they are famously no weight no hold no transfer phone service a real living human being will help you hover do not try to upsell you in every little detail like who is privacy and no one goes on about that because there is a habit that it's is included is no flashy adds no pushy BS in short it's actually pleasant to use which were domain registrar in my experience is a rare thing now I know that that's all wonderful and everything that hover also offer bulk discounts for 10 domains and up so the more domains you have with hover the cheaper it gets for each which is a bonus they also have a reliable email service you get a terabyte of storage space as well if you want they also offer email forwarding for just five dollars a year finally the service that I think brings so many people with existing domains to holler is their ballet transfer service is free point hover in the right direction with your existing domain and registrar and they'll take care of everything for you you have to worry about messing up because they do it all the time it's gonna go a lot more smoothly than if you just do it yourself once every few years that's why I removed my domains there years ago and that's why this still a holler and that's why they're staying at hover checkout hover@hover.com/pragmatic and fine just how easy is to grab your own domain or transfer your existing domain hover is in the coupon code exactly to get 10% off your first purchase let hover valet your domain stresses away today thank you once again to hover the sponsoring pragmatic right so should you listen to pod casts yes all hold hold horses there are sunny let sailors think this through there are many distractions in the world around us and you have to decide the best way to spend your time the average life expectancy is about 80 years in the develops in developed countries around the world and it's actually 79.8 in the USA and 83 in Australia now an average of 1680 hours per year not including weekends not including four weeks of annual leave not including those that work from home dance around about 35 hours a week on average or seven hours per working day where people are working arm also we assume people spent about an hour so average commuting each day and an hour or so from your breaks at various times when network so the amount people now time people sleep though actually varies considerably but a recent study in Australia suggested about seven hours is about the right average figure assumes 24 hours a day and that's probably a safe assumption considering this Camino time dilation effects of the speed were travelling that means that there are about eight hours maybe nine every day to do your own thing are if you are employed united school and you are totally spectacularly average because let's face it, Guinness there are so many different people and walks of life and everything that listen to this show or any other support cast that matter that I've got a deal with some, average because otherwise I can't address every use case but still so age-old question then what's the best way to use your spare time now if you're in a relationship you might want to spend that time with your partner maybe you've you want to read maybe one watch a movie summer time unfortunately does me to ensures like the shopping clean house doing the laundry mowing the lawn following some more none of those may apply to you you have someone to clean house for you in which case I hate you but that's fine maybe you arm gets do similar to the shopping fear I don't know anyway if you have children is even less time you got other hobbies you know like other stuff that you do maybe go to the gym maybe play chess maybe you I don't know whatever you do arm anyway so fitting into people's lives how does talk radio and pod casts how we fit in and I put in the same basket because the same kind of activity size of the benefits first of all you don't need to look at so you can listen to the mice free unlike a television they can be short like 50 minutes long like our podcast like developing perspective for example all they could be long like four hours plus some episode of the talkshow for example are but there is no restrictions set with TV there's typically ad break restrictions and time has pressured are the revolution such that you roughly TV shows or happy 20 minutes longer 44 minutes long and that allows time for ad breaks and to fit in 30 minutes or hour-long slots let's say there are no such restrictions with podcast the matter what anyone says there are no restrictions into whatever you like okay so I think that it's useful to break pod casts into two kinds two classes if you will ones that can be background listening once the care are far more engrossing/compelling listening now that is not a judgement of good or bad I'm just saying because different kinds of pod casts and radio content are good for different scenarios so the background listening once I'd say be characterised by the easy listen to they don't require a heck of a lot of thinking necessarily are there generally conversational shows sometimes they just bellowed there there commonly the light-hearted they're fun you know some people dislike to have them on to hit people's voices in the background you like background noise you know rather than just being see networking inside stop on their favourite radio show and every now and then I'll take five seconds to listen in on chuckle or throw a shoe at the radio or whatever they much is that whereas compelling or engrossing listening shows are they would like the news that say the news generally arm that's gonna require a reasonable manner concentration so something like May by serial or like this podcast or educational content like garlic hard-core history let's say just pick a few examples yet they are the sorts of ones that you did she tend not to be a guest easy listening as it were cinema how you slice it I think that both of those broad categories of pod casts can have a place background listening is by far and away the best kind of pod casts and honestly the most prevalent kind of pod casts and you can listen to it in the widest variety of circumstances one of the OpenOffice Writer recorder criticism but one of the comments I've had about pragmatic is that as pod casts go it's very it requires a lot of concentration but people can't just listen to it in the background they tend to Wanna they had to sit down and pay attention to this lots of information in the episodes arm SO not listening to my sense of humour are less appreciable than not you know on the St so I don't make background but I think I make the good break background listening at least in so I think the answer is yes people should listen to pod casts but just being a told you this I think that yes I know you did the reason that I think people should is that I think that background listening pod casts otherwise people should tender listen to more because they are the ones that are broadly available is more of them this lots more options available podcast like mine are far more niche and frankly arm I think that I just did I just convince people I should listen to this podcast possibly bit late now if you listening to me tell you this but you know I'm saying is it's it's a much narrower set of situations and circumstances where the average individual can listen to a podcast like the one so that means it's restricted listening which means it's can be less accessible which means that you less people was a national limit is to validate collapse make three of get plenty of for about listening scenarios yet and I guess that's really the point is that if you are gonna accept that it's a it's a good medium are good way of filling some spare time or is background noise or information or something to listen to the background when you doing other things that's great just I think that there should be some balance that if it's all just compelling listening than I do know Mavis too much or if it's all background listening easy listening staff then perhaps you missing out on a nine by deafening some balances in order so Aga should you make a pod cast why would anyone want to make a podcast thoughts comments before Isis they will say oh and I would say anybody should make a podcast that that wants to make a podcast and feel they have something to say it's a good place to start I think I guess there's a lot of reasons are so many reasons I guess but in my case I'd listen to Sammy pod casts but I can never find exactly was looking for some made mine that really was the main driver arm there are a few other blips along the way for me ultimately pragmatic that was the one I was want to make arm and I'm glad I did it's been a lot of work but I'm so glad I did but I guess the question is why put yourself out there why record your own voice wide why do it is it more than just having something to say because I like to think everyone has something to say but a lot of people choose not to be wise in a crowd that you have one person or a small number of people are happy to stand up and and speak while the others are happy just to let them there is a lot of different motivations for that absolutely amend some people like me are our mutual friend Jordan Cooper for example seders orders narcissism and ideas surface level I can see why people think that a narcissism for those that aren't sure what that means and there may be some provider is the pursuit of farm are gratification from our vanity or egotistic admiration I guess for the one they were putting it of your own attributes if that makes any sense of guilt yet your own attributes your personality or whatever I guess is wise hard things are now down the term actually comes writing from Greek mythology because Narcissus fell in love with his reflection are apparently whipped down Bellamy hey was a while ago so he knows you know could have been made in whatever okay arm yes so anyway it says it really is at the famed fortune popularity thing you notice I guy you would like to make make a splash in people listening to me I become popular and it's a reason to do this and if it doesn't happen that I shouldn't do it didn't site I don't know I think it's a very broad brush to say that people do that and that's a key component or you think perhaps you could set is an element no matter how small is an element of that perhaps that honestly I think that you have to enjoy talking right and I don't mind talking could guess that arm I had no idea anyway I also enjoy our teaching people I know how that sounds I really don't actually arm my father was a primary school and eventually a high school teacher and is I don't know if there's anything to that as to why I enjoy our teaching people things I know I I don't know I have enjoyed tutoring younger engineers I enjoy giving presentations I stop in front of dozens and hundreds of people giving presentations it's never been an issue for me I get butterflies for the first 30 seconds are especially the hundred or poor war people are and then I'm over it especially with the topic that I know and I understand I've never had a problem with that are I haven't actually really sorted out like sorted out as in like I haven't really X are chased after that though I haven't know I have pursued a career in teaching our inner I've always thought maybe someday maybe when I retire or when I'm done with engineering and I feel it's time to step back maybe I might DO see if I can explore that in an Indian university maybe one day I do know that you it's not really on my radar so this is actually the first time I've actually communicated to such a big audience and it's been I guess it's been a very interesting journey of sorts arm if you like but some should you make a podcast well honestly you have to brace yourself for you put yourself out there you can get feedback some it's gonna be good in my case I was lucky most of it was good that is not the experience of every person makes a podcast if you put yourself out there you are gonna get criticism people can't tell you how you should be doing what you should be doing we should be doing it wherever they can add think they're gonna correct you leg then some people are gonna try and even take you down right and you have to ask yourself do you really want that do you really want to deal with that if you're striving to become more popular for reasons I don't understand that if you're striving to use as a mechanism to become more popular honestly arm question why you doing it I think arm if you got something to say great but you have to enjoy saying it otherwise you think you know it'll be all fizzle and I see a lot of that people say oligopolies great ideas honour wanted to create something aggregate there I create and it lasts 510 episodes and dies and psych will obviously enjoy talking about Amelia got too much negative feedback or the heart was really unit and impregnated converts approaching two years not quite about a year and nine months or thereabouts it's you asking close to 2 years art that's not the sort of thing that I don't think it fizzled there a few prognostications early on that it wouldn't make it's are as far as it has but arm ultimately though yeah I guess I just resting that should you make a podcast is the question of trying to address it and I did the short answer is yes I think so by just be sure you doing it for I guess good reasons if that makes any sense it does and be sure that it's something you're passionate about that you can that you enjoy talking about its forecast is off talking enjoy talking I guess is pretty simple really anything about but there is another issue that I want to talk about arm – and that is can you make a living from podcasting because I've been approached by few people have asked me to question say you Johnny B really really successful with pragmatic and yards done some really well and Mike upon what do you gauge that and it's like we've had lots of sponsors Mike yes and no yes about sponsors some have done well some have not so you know what let's talk about that no one talks about this debt way and that the topic successes very relative one person's failure Sylvia another person success and vice versa thank you yes exactly so I get can we start by trying to answer the question can you make a living from podcasting yes you can but make no mistake it is very hard and you have to work really hard you have to sacrifice a lot and you know what it's getting harder with every passing month as the volume of podcast increases so does the competition for the podcast sponsorship money which today remains by far the easiest way to make money podcasting sisters talk about that a lot of people have said to me know what our patron arm now patient on is an interesting idea and so does the lizard understand page on the idea is that you can sign up and sponsor as an individual you can say I'm going to arm our beer patron patron for your show on to give you one dollar a month because I'm awesome and I think you're awesome and I want to keep doing what you're doing thumbs up everybody smiles it's great however arm I think patron on is an interesting idea and it works great if you already have an established base of listeners or readers but is very very hard to make a go of it from the beginning when you don't have that also if you look at the figures for downloads to list the ratio who are prepared to actually fund the show through a system like patriarch it isn't very high most listeners would rather put up with as I say put up with" some people enjoy the ad reads apparently I know I mean I guess all the delivery maybe or maybe it's learning about new products they didn't know about that they could be interested in either way some people don't mind the ads and let's face it is free right or you do is sit there and listen to an ad also be will fast forward through the ads in obviously we would rather that they didn't but they're free to do that should they choose to but it's also up to them if they listen to the ads and they choose not to actually support show that's also their choice or as a patron on its commitment so people generally would rather listen to the ads and pay money out of their own pocket to fund the continuation of the show and the most damning criticism against Patry on is that if the patron model work better the majority of podcast be using that model and they don't and as a market look at the evidence evidence tells you that a sponsorship model works best advertising model works best you you get the best return from that a gamma principal argument as much as you like but the truth is that's the numbers and the business side of it does not stack up principles doesn't buy you a house and does not feed you or your family so anyway there's also another dimension to this if you're producing a podcast that is based on the patron model where you have a director more direct connection with listeners that are paying for your show then you become more heavily influenced by those audience members and their specific satisfaction rather than those that don't you support show through through patron as I point out by patron is not the only ways you can do this right is otherwise of accepting you know recurring payments and scientist Ping is an example and I do is any wrong patron for Avaya for a lot of different things just aren't try to compare and contrast the two between you sponsorship model this is patron so is saying is producing a more heavily influenced by those audience of that support show if you keep them happy they will keep paying the show if they're not they won't and there you will lose your funding to do the show so when the arm in terms of it getting harder every month now discs will that's enough said about patron torment sponsors right and how hardhearted is getting again when I started looking a podcasting list OS Squarespace Squarespace had cut off before they would even consider sponsoring your show is about 5000 downloads at that point per episode I think it's about a month out some minor about a year ago that I jumped about 10,000 now it sing about 25,000 and that's the effect of market I think market saturation is that in order to get a decent return they're having to advertise on much bigger shows however is that the point and that's I think one of the things it I struggled with early on you hear the expression a good fit in I and in my early days of my engineering career I scoffed when I heard that I thought I just noticed management BS bingo you know it's not as many as I guess it is what people say site pragmatics like a proactive no in proactive now so a good fit though is actually a really good way of describing the problem if I have a sponsor that has a product that my fan base follower base listener base whatever you call it is really interested in using if I can connect that sponsor and their product with a good deal with that fan base then we have a good fit so if your sponsor has a good use for desirable product or service and I think a unique deal or a customised deal through you and only you and your listeners are affluent enough or are want to support the show specifically enough or they have a desire to use said product or service you have a good fit and you have a great sponsor arm relationship if you are attempting to address the mass-market and is that is a far more difficult proposal than it gets pushed down the road of more traditional advertising for which you must show a return by the act shall return for sponsors right otherwise. Sponsoring so I'll ultimately that's the truth and and ultimately you know it becomes more difficult to sell because you go through the traditional arm outlets and anger so we are to meet this minimum threshold I'm sorry you do not meet threshold so get lost in or some will be polite most just won't respond so ultimately I think I act like there's more site before I do that the wrapup on sponsors okay how responses would you accept an episode of pragmatic just just curious would you accepts 12345 what you think we think is a reasonable number arm I think most people were suing one sponsor per half-hour of contents pretty reasonable I think that seems to be about the average anyway so by Matt Matt Matt most of sense of pragmatic been spot on I've originally said to I've done one episode with 1/3 sponsor arm there were few have said the talk show a recall where arm where Mr Gruber attracted for sponsors arm in the upside are angular they are generally longer episodes again that sort of fits that rough farm working our maths that you proposed so I think that that is a balance that you need to be careful of how but there is another balance as well amass the duration to how long do you think an ad read should be for a sponsor in a podcast at that's that's really variable and subjected up to me it depends on on whether the that the readers for obviously something still need long and I'll and obviously some things need a little bit more detail arm I think probably length of the episode itself should be considered arm plates if realistic with our one hour. Our arm may be one minute for each Airdrie carafe our and maybe add 30 seconds each ad read for each additional IFR of content so like if you do unlike an hour and have long shell may be a millionaire hefted to 2 minutes maximum I would think for each ad that's that's fine arm under that mass long as you're aware the average duration of an ad read on pragmatic art is about 2 1/2 minutes so I failed sorry to be Yancey daycare trailer sales Ranger no I'm not really criticise you with the show and I understood the I'm trying to speculate what I feel like the average listener would have tolerance for a lot of this is just based on some tweets and things that I've seen from some very vocal minorities on the subject of ads and podcasts and ultimately I don't think is right or wrong but there are some extra gear rate there you so a lot of it comes down to the fluidity of and read our I think that the passion and the emotion the delivery of it bites arm because people are stupid they can tell they can tell the difference between someone is really bored there's really enjoying a product and someone who is just doing a an advertiser read and done that they people can tell a difference but for example our monocytes are back to work another one of my therapy casts and are some of those ad reads can go for between 12 to 15 minutes and some of them blend so much into the content of the show it's hard to actually separate out and tell that there an ad read now I don't know I can and then of course you got the elements of a distinct start and finish someone play music in the background when they're on some of them are very strict time limit 60 seconds 90 seconds you know two minutes very strict are those things good or bad is that what listeners wants will they just fast forward through them all go to X3 axle 10 X God knows what eggs you are or to stop listening the show because of it amid these are all questions that as a content producer honestly it's tiring trying to answer them on to create content not trying to become an ad agency but I meant this uncomfortable middle ground where I am neither I'm neither arm a little name that will get no sponsorship and am neither a big enough name to justify that time investment are of larger advertisers and and and worry about those sorts of details I think that you have to be fair and reasonable to your sponsors and balance that with was fair and reasonable to the listeners and maybe that sounds like An obvious but it's a really hard balance to Malaysia 7.I hear it is a lot easier said than done and people criticise all the time about advertising in pod casts but the truth remains it is the single best way to generate an income from a podcast and honestly there are a lot of pod casters that I think do a fantastic job of their ad reads but the vast majority of the ad reads that I hear on a lot of different podcasts that I listen to have room for improvement frankly some of mine perhaps do as well but that's because this is not my forte and I'm still learning I think I've improved in the course of the show but I still have a long way to go and you if and when I come back to doing pod casts again if I have sponsors in future arm I will continue to work on because I have to do arm their products and services justice because that's part of the deal doesn't affect why saner show note arm I think you're mad if you let it are you have to be you have to be yellow fair and reasonable but not you also have to get a good fit because if you're chasing sponsors just because other people have them sponsors you doing it wrong you know it yes it is easier to chase after people that are familiar with podcast advertising because you don't need to give them the steel about this is what a podcast is this is how we advertise on Isis of not being there and I've tried that it's hard work and it's a long game I'm talking 3 to 6 month long game with some of these are sponsors in order to bring them into the arm podcast sponsorship and even then it may not work out so yes always easy to chase the ones that are established and have done this before but the same time if you do that then you'd be aware that you may not get the best fit especially for doing a forecast that is very niche or different enough and only pragmatic was in some respects different enough in any case unite what is success like you said different sets of metrics yes I have made some money from the show I have mostly reinvested that money in the show in arm like buying this microphone a higher logger PR 40 I've gotta show a higher shock mount I've got an onyx blackjack I'm recording this through so all this podcasting hardware that I'm using has been funded from sponsors sponsorships are the software used at this logic has been funded by that the website is funded by that listeners funded by all that is funded from that sponsorship money so you know arm I guess being self-sufficient and that the not being a cost impact the family budget was one of my measures for success and yes I guess was successful in that respect but this is getting back to can you actually live off of this short answer for me know I can't succumb doesn't make that much I don't want to go into the figures and I have very good reasons for that arm and i.e. I need to respect are the wishes of my sponsors & contracts that I have signed so I'm sorry if I can't talk about that on the show I wanted to life deliberated long and hard about this but I decided not to do what I can say is that I don't think it's possible for one individual to start a podcast that does not have a prior following of any debt of any nature of any real significant quantity and that's open open for discussion and with a single pod cast be a live off I don't think is possible which is why people in that scenario tend to start their own networks because if you start a network that's when you can start to pay off because you're not just leveraging yourself you're leveraging are the different personalities that you get on the network which should be very careful about who you get on the network and then it becomes a are all the benefits of being a network me we've got dumb your joints are advertising deals you've got arm joint promotional material the craft got ice cross pollination of the different show episode of shows and stuff and some all those benefits that is actually feasible but even then only just it's a hard slog and takes a lot of effort people just they hear the podcast they think are greatly no such and such a starter network and are doing really well do not kid yourself how hard work that it was and how hard they are working in the background okay believe me okay arm so ultimately as more people get on jump on the bandwagon there is more material it's getting harder and harder and harder to keep to the fight for that sponsorship money is only a certain amount sponsorship money out there and yes more people getting more countries get involved sponsorship and ultimately if you can find a good fit with a small number of sponsors that's really what you need but that could take months or years to figure that out your audience will change companies will change all that you have arrangements with if you like or deals with within a company they will move on everything is changing the landscape is changing it is not straightforward it takes persistent effort so can you make a living doing a podcast I think yes with a lot of caveats and be prepared for a lot of work yet this is not easy Street do not kid yourself okay so sections of people's portfolio is I think a far better way of thinking about a podcast blog traffic is decreasing and people attending the podcast as well social you can argue is in decline after a big boom that is more debatable but still not great debate those just thrown at their food for thought I guess if you think about a blog as part of your portfolio in his portfolio my support via sensory professional what I mean is our spider brand so I've got I had to threat in the same market the point is that I started out with an out arm I have a blog that supports that our canals advertise that the act advertises the blog as a symbiosis I start a podcast it picks up a slightly different segment of the audience they will then become aware of my act through the through the podcast and then they may get a show note link to the blog and everything starts to you assist each other and every little bit gets slightly different segment of the market and more and more people than you will get in in drawn into that ecosystem that brand if you will having a blog as an element of your portfolio is a far more convincing argument doable to do a podcast if you're trying to build up an audience I think but I guess where this falls apart for me person while for me personally I guess to an extent I think that a lot of success in pod casting and blogging and so on is is popularity and popularity as a fickle friend if you screw it up you done for the most part you know they're always can be people that are controversial and people larceny were attracted the controversy I'm not some people are and even then wrong controversy about the wrong group of people and you could be done in a yes to me personally I don't want or need popularity to make a living I just I don't there's a lot of pressure that comes along with popularity is people start hanging on what you say how you say it you know who you say to who you don't say things to our unit organisers at any wives you treated them in months and is like you follow this person anymore I'm culling followers doesn't mean anything yet but maybe a manager having no it doesn't stop reading between the lines there are no lines and you're making outlines annuity between them it's like all that extra pressure just increases as your popularity increases you know and if you're not making much from it if you're not enjoying it why are you doing it seems like a lot of unnecessary stress for not heck of a lot again putting yourself out there but you know it maybe the trade-off is work at work that there is a trade-off thing again maybe that's worth it if you're trying to build out a brand as part of your portfolio I guess I know works for some people I suppose something else to consider I'm not sure I have a conclusion on that before me personally I just think that building any kind of career based on popularity is always difficult because it is so fickle that's your but I'm an engineer I guess I would say that when I am because I that's just that's just not how an engineering career still swelled generally speaking I suppose there are some people have built none have extended their careers through popularity I guess like popular public speaker is something that I know maybe I like to think probably less so but I do know maybe it is looking a wrong's possible okay so arm my final conclusion arm ran over to you is our schedule is the podcast absolutely yes if you're going to get some balance I think between easy listening and some I think educational contents opportunity learn why not but be careful who you listen to I think there's a lot of uninformative uninformed opinions out there and a lot of that ignorance that I see are out there gets perpetuated as frustrating so I guess just be careful if you listen to rippling nonsense for hours then well be warned that you may start dribbling nonsense yourself but you know and if you start making a podcast we use drivel nonsense four hours then just be people that you can get dribbled nonsense as a result of that back at you write connect get back what you put in you know anything peoples and Lisney drivel nonsense for the heck of it than maybe maybe you're deluding yourself I don't know maybe some people have fun doing that I don't know but in any case I I would suggest your always coherent biggest critic so whatever you do make some that you are proud of otherwise this could be some about so don't make things mediocre and just keep making because it's mediocre because Waunakee is not obligated to make because I could make at night don't know no no no just make something you're proudly if you're not proud of it stopped on honestly if your choice so anyway make a good one you don't have to bake something do something good and honestly it is hard to start a podcast it's hard to start from scratch like I have no following no interest before I started pragmatic I had less than 100 followers on Twitter for example and I'm now creeping up towards 600 that's not a measure of anything really but it's a litmus test to suggest that more people are following what I'm doing and what I'm saying as a result of the show but I'm a far cry from a lot of other people that have popular pod casts I am still nobody in many respects and that probably good thing by sniffing up to set but anyway it's hard to build something solely based on a personality I guess are that smile a bit of advice as you they say you need a hook I guess I know arm so think about that what exactly AMD please don't just copy whatever else is doing right that's been done right decently different isn't daring arm I think people should care a little bit about the audio as well they get you to go stupid right you don't have to have a microphone suspended are on a floating plate in the middle of a Bob bucket of water to try and isolate it from some subsonic soundwaves or oh I don't know there's all sorts of crazy rubbish that people think so I was better shot mass and make all the difference know it isn't have any work and some better content first trial terms first year army but at the same time you can't have you know like a cup really know you have to care a little bit don't go stupid only I listen to existential and I cringed because it was recorded on arm you like a headset Micah came with my iPhone terrible I knew was terrible but you know what PaineWebber anyway so I take a lot more care with pragmatic from the beginning I bought a decent microphone and now I've got an even better microphone but I'm stop I'd start stop their note this is this is sufficient arm and if you going to guard you do it and have it dodging a connection you can do it over a double-ended recording it's a little bit more work editing which know what it's fine as you remove the Skype FaceTime phone call quality from the equation for doubling the recordings you record your end they record their ends and/or ends any reassemble them and edit how it works it's a great way to get rid to take it out of the equation are and finally as you build your own site using whatever methodology you like justice and research depicted the best delivery method for you the producer of the show is run for the in crowd says hey were using Drupal today is a custom Java player applet would do do do it night don't do it just don't okay please don't do the popular thing do what works for you if you use Squarespace use Squarespace if you want to use our SoundCloud use SoundCloud you if you want to use lives in any all the built-in tools to deter decree feeding everything fine research and do what the best thing is for you not everyone wrote that the producer podcast has to be a body web developer I am not so you know and I dived custom like Ivy Stanek is a CMS I got lives in the back end in a funny way my own my own arm RSS feeds posted on my own site which is running of the virtual private server running on centaurs it's like well okay anyone would think I might be a web developer but now not arm from pacemaker music studies CMS and on the web developer had a fight if I enrolled my own case that maybe the guy but I'm not night and done no I was not going that far and I proven from hacking PHP that I should stick to my date and is it that's all I have that is the end of my notes the final notes for the final show that swelling up that's it did you know that I was 10 pages with IA you mentioned that you so finally Victor finally finally finally now is your time to take over you have control right rains go for Lorraine Lamott explained the listeners that for from a segment I have been test with asking John questions and he is going to and through them and he has no pre-knowledge of same questions and discussion aerator promotes dimmer softballs but there it there are some things that that I was curious about enough guts from Twitter and winner English first there was in there and got a stay right off the bat that my question list has diminished somewhat since the start of this episode because you've stole them and your spiel in the vitamin A assurance out loud no need to apologise that I agree Noel Noel no need to apologise that's great because I still have several left unfortunately most of them either softballs okay then our cell wall will start with with one of my and in her legs that I'm not necessarily going to tribute everybody from from Twitter that Aster question if it comes up and you recognise it is yours you'll know that that was you in order to move on from there so that we can keep account a brief and keep it moving are the forest when it came to my mind was actually our and we can have a go I was listening to some other podcast so many manifolds mountainous analyst delighted a podcast and this topic was floating around that there's recently been some buzz about whether software developers have the right to to be considered and to call themselves engineers and and wandered as an engineer do you have any thoughts on that partial answer is absolute themselves an engineer I think that engineers engine engineering as a discipline is a recognised discipline I think arm sort of the mechanical engineering from me in the Industrial Revolution is what drove arm engineering as a profession certainly before that there were architects and you would argue civil engineers whether referred to as civil engineers are not entirely sure about history that I don't think so and the mechanical engineering and then of course with the discovery of electricity and so on with the electrical engineering from their more recently of course with now moved to our logic and software programming and so on and it's all about our changing our changing the world around us to do things that we need are to be done where that's done are via mechanical engineering for a vehicle to get us from point A to point B if you look at a modern vehicle modern vehicles have more than just the mechanics they have more than just a steering column and and some wheels and a chassis yet I also now have our electrical electrics in them so that I have your electric calipers and the brakes let's say I drive my mate hydraulically just a bad example but the other godly electric headlights and I'll have a battery which is driven by electricity seek electrical engineering in there but even more so more recently now you have on-board computers and the computers can control everything control systems that decrease control our adaptive radar you know as well as of course all the lighting indications and your various differently and there's a lot of software and can bus the comms from different devices around car you all that comes in software all of that those are aspects of engineering and I see absolutely no reason why arm anyone should call software developer arm just a software developer and and I think the problem is the connotation is like yours the software developing on a real engineer is that that's the connotation that I've heard that expression I don't think that that's fair are because honestly it's an aspect of engineering to dimension of engineering so I guess totally and absolutely fair dear I think that that the biggest most common reason that I've heard for the people that are against software developers going themselves an engineer is arm owing if you look at it on a purely basic that forget about degrees and schooling are technical training engineering itself can kind of sort of be generically summed up as as a problem solver and so it's really easy for a software developers to follow into that category but if you look at it on a deeper level beyond the generic viewpoint over it then you know people like such as yourselves in the quarrel" and doing real engineer as you there's a lot of schooling involved in this degrees the certifications there is there is a lot of things like that and I think the biggest argument was just that this guy that warrants the cold in his spare time and put some apps on the store really have the rate to put himself in the same league as as that is the degree holding certification holding gutter put in his news engineers and I think that's pretty much whether coming from and that was it that's the angle yours considering from then I referred episode 10 passion of our academic proof as to my feelings on the subject and look at our just to summarise to summarise that are I don't think a piece of paper makes you a good engineer are I don't think for five year university degree makes you a good engineer are though the thing is that if you want to consider that an engineering degree is a form of practice then so is developing something yourself in your house in your backyard and a few get the same end result and it takes you either less time or more time overtime is not so relevant then ultimately you have still engineered whatever that is now the argument is Kenny then call yourself an engineer while an engineer is someone that engineers things and if you have engineer product then you are by definition an engineer if you prefer perhaps an inventor maybe that honestly arm I see as a subset so the problem is that society recognises degree qualification in part like a said again referred episode 10 are the problem with the with degree qualification is that it has limited value are beyond a certain point whereas so it shows that only someone is just bring a friend finished university after five years of studying for their engineering degree and then show me someone who has written an application is taken in five years but a really great app and a place Polk now at the end of that time arm both persons has the hat while only one of those persons has actually developed a product the other one hasn't all I have is the potential to develop a product and is no guarantee you'll be any good so you decide which is more useful in the end Axel I find you so it is fair to say that that the judge had the answer to the question of whether or not you're an engineer is that the proof is in the pudding yes and frankly I've worked with people in engineering that were not engineers the did a better job than the engineers did and that's because they have learnt the ropes through apprenticeships through learning by doing and learning by being burned in the field nothing teaches better than being burned for there is and if you and if you go and you try something it doesn't work you damn well remember next time raisin engineering in degree you typically get taught this is how it is done sometimes get an explanation sometimes get the maths behind the two often get the maths behind it and you don't need a night but anyway and what you end up with you end up with someone that does not get burned and they do not remember the reasons that you don't do things as the person who has gone through done at the hard cocoa hard way normal way whatever nondegree method has been burned because they screwed up all along the way and they've learned in a I am a letter PHP programmer now than I was two years ago why because I tried to write it myself no education on PHP at all except information I could find on the net I don't have a computer science degree I have electrical engineering degree I guarantee you that did not teach me Java did not teach me Java script even then teach many stuff you know I haven't learnt it formally I learnt it by trying anyway next next arm this is one from Twitter and I'm not gonna begin to touch the content or an answer to this I'm gonna leave it completely up to you because this is a levels way above my head and that the question is simply put whole flow or electron flow we doing the dieting of silicon now arm I understand this is a hotly debated engineering topic it's semantics is what it is a me I yeah okay arm you know what however you want your brain to work is the AII I like into the glass half full glass half empty you know getting where it's like I both are true different depending on how my collaborative register circuit you can first that Telus moguls what what work out what were questioning here what's whole flow would want electron. Well arm I it's because it's coupled with the argument of an electron electron movement so if you've got a piece of silicon and is are you don't you can do while in endive torpedo silicon analyser leave a a deficiency or an additional arm of the space for electron so you can argue whether or not current flowing through their is through the alarm is is the electron flowing through arm the deficient sections or whether not is the holes that are moving are saying it's inside the holes you you think to yourself it's okay on a deeper hole in the ground and I did another hologram 5 m away the holes don't move it but it's convenient it's convenient to think that the holes are moving because it makes certain things simpler to get your head around it is also the whole pot dwelling electrons are negatively charged so what do they go from there they go from positive to negative or negative to positive I would guess from negative to positive that's right when you draw currents and flow and a circuit diagram you've got positive voltage of the top going to 0 or ground which is a lesser voltage power supply from positive to negative but that's not the direction electrons are flowing elk at our F has melted your brain yet unknowable setting that there is the log anyway as I the doctor silicon diving whole movement electron movement and electron flow direction and is just whatever you are I think that was one of those facetious questions was meant to make me annoyed and it succeeded so congratulations whoever asked that good at a shallow buildup auric visit this one should be a little less annoying little easier for you as an engineer what's the toughest problem you solved or the one that you are most proud of our goods could question okay arm only go with the Bradbury machine and I know that the Bradbury machine is a Gates I do not orbit as before I think I may have on some customer doesn't guess when I was a guest on engineering Commons I think a metal that is armed the Bradbury machine is a our industrial machine it's a light mission light industrial machine and it makes garage doors and is arm and these are sectional doors so if you're familiar with this sort of door not sure what it's called over in North America I think is referred to as it something refer to Ms sectional overhead door are the idea is that you have a series of panels and they are long very long rectangular panels and they are about our summer between arm wire to foot and 3 foot high sections and you place for five of them arm one stack up against the other and they each have a hinge so that when you raise the door it pulls the door up and along a track that runs along the underneath the ceiling line and they had a series of runners on each side of the year the entryway to the garage are sending familiar again do you happen to have such a door I do okay vehicle so the Bradbury machine Bradbury is the name of the company arm and the company makes all sorts of hydraulic presses and our role form is not of the different things they said we call this the Bradbury machine because the original press as a Bradbury press so they call it the Bradbury machine and it was made after a company in Australia originally local CSI doors and now they are called BND doors so BND doors are and their efforts at their facility here in Brisbane are we doing a major upgrade are to the Bradbury machine and the Bradbury machine was going to from being a separately controlled our straightforward machine which had a single decoy lower arm and balsa level are press guillotine slid a chopper and single role form to one that had your rough role formers are double arm decoy lower are and fully integrated control system with their our sales system so what that required was a much faster more powerful plc are a hell of a lot of wiring and reprogramming of sections of the plants that the machine had been controlled by different PLCs and is it the whole project itself was about half million are to do are about some progress hundred chaos own variations and is it was an absolutely amazing project are it had servo motor controls it had's arm you just so much machine control there was so much fun and it was such a difficult problem solved because it involved our scripting in our inserts and visual C are to take data from ASAP from the ordering system and scrub them from their Chronicle colour file so people all of the doors and they would shovel together on colour solid so you have Ocean spray are or rather or missed grey different colours so these coils of arm steel would be delivered from BHP and you would put them on the decoy love the caller would well decoy Ellison an uncoiled are the steel and is arm just from loading that file the colour file the machine with and spit out the doors and the correct height the correct punch whole positions the correct role forming and everything are anywhere then stack them at the end and then they would dart would do a rapid shift so that the software solution was taking the colour files and then spitting out the door at the end and that was a tremendously rewarding and difficult problem to solve and I'm most proud of that excellent through legal will move onto another one from Twitter this is a good one as a thinks of really good question on what technology that you've talked about on the shoulder you think will have had the most impact on the world in 10 years time while our okay arm car I think the short answer that is RFID RFID you arm I'm going through my my mind thinking of the topics in the different episodes and wear that to which that question would apply and the reason I say RFID is look at where identification technology is progressing so I thought briefly about power but I think the longer elements of building blocks of overflow of renewable energy already in play arm but RFID is its gonna reach a point where you don't have a shopping our checkout anymore you know honey will truly become you just take the goods out and that's it it counts them all it builds you correctly and you don't have to tap a thing it'll just do it correctly are there are some technical difficulties in to work properly but is getting better all the time and the technology continues to improve the cost continues to come down its gonna become you know I think transformative in in transportation shipping around pallets are and you'll reach a point where people start wearing the ER things I can Apple watch the scholars built into it this is our only RFID near field communication is going to be the the thing that Skinner had the biggest impact the next 10 years absolutely excellent correct that there is a little known fact that that on some level were older engineers in a way because were always trying to fix and repair things at home in a daily life equips and a lot of only met my children arm as Melbourne MMH on the other direction asylum so as as this this this engineer what's the most unorthodox solution that you've wrecked up to solve a problem and God arm this is can be so self-incriminating arm are: I cannot tell you that one are onto anything that was why these I'm prepared to admit arm you are I only give you an innocuous one by the back of my brain tries to think of another one arm okay are to and I both have to do with duct tape… You get have a follow-up question that that leads to duct tape shake your rights advertisement as I have a bunch of hard drive enclosures and these hard drive enclosures have a power switch on the back of the house which is a momentary latching associates are latching on spring-loaded switch so you push the ladder the pushbutton in our it it's our latches on the spring is held in tension by a latch he pushed in a second time it releases that latch in the spring forces the bun back out again they familiar back on a switch over so well what all goes wrong is when the dam latch don't latch no more and it's like Odea now me hard drive don't work in a more what's so what I do well I do hold that thing in how I do it well I'm gonna go and get a packet of cereal cardboard from a packet of cereal breakfast cereal and I cut it into a surreal fold up on itself about what no hundred times how many times is the limit seven whatever and I followed sometimes I get some duct tape and a duct tape and went stating that I hold the dam button on now my hard drive works again a year because I could just replace a switch or got a new hard drive carried note note note the duct tape and the cardboard saved me next one are on the same colour vein is I bought myself a shock mount extra special extra cheap from eBay in Hong Kong and let's just say the dimensions didn't exactly match the microphone and I had a time was an ATR 2100 once again duct tape and cardboard to the rescue my microphone was tiny and thin by comparison to this thing which is designed for condenser Mike which is much much meatier so what I do well layer duct tape layer cardboard layer duct tape they are cardboard and eventually about an hour and 1/2 later I had built up enough thickness for this to actually be held properly by the shock mount and hey presto that's how I built wash mount up so that I had here so they go duct tape Faisal Jonas friends which is also the follow-up question would you go to morally air-driven burlesque it anyway in the in the same particular school of engineering there is a are pretty popular image that floats around Google and so it is a flowchart and are basically early in implies that that problems can be fixed with the right amounts of WD-40 and/or duct tape… Have you seen this image and do you subscribe to wasabi I have seen I have seen said flowchart and absolutely entitling tension and sets are arm yes I have and the number of times I have reached around for the correct viscosity oil for my bike chain and I've just reached an account of WD-40 instead are and I felt bad on every time I've done it and I know that is a completely different viscosity and I know that it's just going to arm dry out evaporating swing a rusted blog again I know but you know what the uppity 40 just works and it's just ain't this is so attractive in the polis is there any spray in its magical I am such a bad mechanical engineer that's why I'm not a mechanical engineer but anyway you are the best thing they're ready 84 he was make the gap that has the straw built in on a hedge are totally yes all those hard to reach places that should also not have WD-40 but it works so well on her idea such a good product for so many of the wrong reasons to and debrided in the confined space either to you anyway okay cool in This lecture was a Twitter question arm what engineering project from the ancient world do you wish you had worked on all our parent experiments question any particular reasons why is this still there only look at this out all the mean I took take that a goal allow the cover stones off but the vast majority of those arm those permits are still standing they are the most impressive pieces of engineering arm from the ancient world arm still in existence today and I me honestly because you can make any significant period of time has to be civil in a folder go back to thinking of arm electrical engineering I would I would be thinking of Marconi and down the early radio transmitters but if I go back further than that steam engines yet Corbett negligently for me so it's like okay great online mechanical engineer time so the really ancient world you really gotta go civil and he uncivil nothing beats the pyramids Anything in the modern world that you didn't participate in the US you Tesla Milex model ethical roaster any of them knew I I try I see them as being truly transformative arm products and they have a little bit of everything in it that I adore which is a fast car arm electrical engineering and variable speed drives and RGB teas and high-speed switching as well as of course the software I think it's it's a truly beautiful expression of engineering and every time I see one of those cars I don't see the car I see everything that went into building it and I just expose my own it's absolutely got smacking the brilliant piece of engineering so you look at now get a series that are a little more mad about this particular podcast in the first one you've shock came a sort of hinted Ionian in your discussion earlier but a I felt like you were speaking mainly from an abstract generic point of view about people in general arm why did you decide to do this podcast and won't cost you to do something a little differently than the normal take podcast despite the fact that you are a fellow actor's arm are mild transcendent loss, personally bottom line LW nine do not because I consider myself a factor it's not is not meant to be an insult okay fair enough then my I cannot honestly Vic arm I partly answered this as you said we and others reiterate this I'd I made pragmatic because I want to make the podcast that I felt didn't exist I felt I want to make one that was our that was the podcast that I would like to listen to and are I had to because no one else is making and every time I listen to a different podcast IB ticket piece by like not knocking into pieces but things about would irritate me an insight while EII I don't like the way they do this and I like the way that they do that and I would like to do differently and if you can't convince someone else to do it differently do it yourself and that's what I did arm so near I mean that that's that's that's why did it and that's the reason it's different that's why do differently is because I wanted it to be different I didn't just want to do another podcast coming his thingy if you want yet you talk to Clinton about existential I was I was concerned before you start existential was I said I don't just why do another take podcast which is inevitably what existential sort of became hence why said pragmatic was really the first forecast that I did that I was really what I wanted to do arm all once before that were more a compromise and it was too much like a lot of other people doing and I want do something different and is you I think that the loan can be a good motivator and are there other polyp because that there rather doing something different with their few and far between I just wish there were more people were doing their own thing their own way because I think you'll find that the niche niche audiences will appreciate that that's what I fax and Kate arm I'll let you decide how you want to quantify this and and and whether you want to consider just and pure pages of notes orient and fight brainpower or ours told all but watched DVR least amount of prep you very put into an episode of the shell i.e. I'm not sure I can give you an accurate answer on that arm I can be rough estimates certainly you can give you a rough estimate based on arm yeah I can I would say the least and a prep I've done an episode is for about two hours that are about the absolute least arm I've never put in less than that that I can recall arm you and Kate was the emotional sawdust is God are some of between 35 and 40 hours basically a solid weeks worth of war of of prep and are and that was for the last upset although admittedly arm admittedly the battery problem came close as well and it's funny no because you illicitly look back at the correlation between hours of prep in and listener feedback and there is a little bit of a correlation not only because lap and bypass gastric sleeve is the other thing to keep in mind I spent 6 to 12 months of research not full-time mind you learning about that surgery before I had done on me because that's who I am and I cannot put a blindfold on and walk into a room and say yeah he is things like you know you cut staff like you know go and don't tell me what it looks like when I'm done you I can't do there I just can't it's not in me it's it's kinda like II equally cannot drive a 9 inch nails through my eyelid you know counted either so I have a Lope threshold so and I have a low lack of comprehension threshold HSI to know anyway my point is that I have to comprehend what I'm getting myself in for so you argue that I had done months of prep for arm the lap band episode because I had done that prep not specifically for the episode but it was done in recent memory during the duration of the show so you know I'm saying is like although the notes themselves only took 10 hours to 15 hours whatever do I identified an exact figure that I don't keep track of that exactly fridge episode that arm only remember the height of the long ones because Michael and Eloise another thing about doing changes as it's that it's it's pervasive you know because you will go and you'll know and I'll write a bunch of notes and billing and I really should mention this and go and lose an old book that I do spend half an hour researching arm electron flow let's say or ice researching Von von Nyman SI hang on a minute after he was gonna be a footnote or in I'm saying it's like an aunt in you look into into cheering SI car so is looking to the movie was done recently are let's look at all actually watch that IK and then another hour is gone it is down the rabbit hole it well I don't like to see is a rabbit hole I like to see it as lashing out to an appropriate depth with the Ms Hadi judge appropriate and I don't know if I've judged appropriately or not basins and the feedback I've got a thing of the unreasonably good job of judging the appropriate amount depth so arm I guess I pat myself on the back that that that the truth is that yet you rights for some people they were proper consider going down the rabbit hole too far that the do you often have a is a pretty fair amount of stuff on the cutting room floor so to speak as Forrester notes like things that that you start out a new start putting in and then you end up deciding not to cover as were doing the show or at a time before you do the show only in the case of when I have guests on sometimes yes it still generally know generally if one of my notes I die I like to talk about during the show are there have been sometimes we guess and come on and made certain points and I listener Michael Mike they made the point is that he be permitted to me to cover itself skip arm in and sometimes it doesn't fit in the flow so you if it doesn't fit in the flow of the conversation sometimes you miss an opportunity to bring something up and I try not to backtrack I try to have it as discrete segments of the show Amelia harkens back the fetlock stays were try to do that within the and handkerchief subsection the show being a discrete section as well Wait this next one is arm with that with the hindsight looking back on pragmatic mail as it is if if you were returned to do a reboot or you are starting it over today arm what if anything would you do differently are a tough one arm I think try to keep this to 2 things just just the two big things that I would do differently arm the first thing I would do differently is I would not spend so much time messing with their website and the feeds I would choose a more out-of-the-box solution and is the reason for that is I sunk a lot of time and effort into the site and it was great from an educational point of view but it detracted from the quality of the content and sometimes I've regretted that Celeste the first thing hence why my recommendations before don't go and do it the cool kids are doing do your own thing do your research and you make the right decision for you in the right decision would have been something that was lower overhead because that sort of overhead just drag me down I think the quality of the show during that time arm second thing arm one of the things are Vic that you and I have developed in since you've been cohosted only with we spoken previously before your car as we we had dinner so tangential and now we will transfer a while but our report developed a more arm after we started doing the show regularly and that's grown over time and is arm and I like our relationship I think we should have reached a nice a nice thought of the nice level such that when we make the show arm that there is a good balances and there is a right amount of arm interaction into play when you call I know what the right word is now not people person or something and I anyway what I mean is I if I was doing and again I would like to start from that point rather than where I did with no pre-discussion no pre-anything just you know men like our I'd like to probably if if if I would do it from scratch I would do it with someone who I already had buildable rapport with rather than using the show as a mechanism to build such a report not please the makers of the reprimand that came out wrong what I mean is not's deli meats develop in running yes yes I like is isolating some pre-recording scape sessions and I don't just mean like that and I have hour before the show I'm in Lake start talking and getting familiar with each other before you ever oblivious to work on the shout yes exactly and and it sounds sounds weird but the chemistry aspect of it you know Mavis speaks to my my space is just the way I see the world it did not occur to me right hands and listen back is what when I jumped out of me brother listen back is that that's when I bent when I really got it it's like well just listen to how we are now and listen to how we were 20 episodes go you know and then go back to the very beginning and the first episode with Ben Alexander and then episode 20 Laszlo 18 and is the difference there stalking she's in autism Jock or chalky cheese or Louvain cheese or whatever cheese or committees anyway arm yet those a case under stomping continues as a bunch of little things but I do half about that most the point is I think I've recovered like the stuff about life and in some ethical arm next is what would you consider to be the most satisfying or rewarding aspect that you've guarded from doing the show are the most rewarding part of making pragmatic has been an opportunity to meet alone and I may sound crazy arm bites I guess there's a theory that's gassing on the lines of this whereby in order to fully comprehend something you have to teach that something to some other people you have to convey an idea to truly comprehend and grasp the concepts you have to be able to explain it to someone else there's a difference between reading off other Wikipedia entry assuming there are any gross errors in it of which sometimes there are our and is reading off verbatim and then actually explaining what that means and is for me it's been an excuse perhaps: excuse most the topics that I've discovered on the show fact I guess all that I was in the show I been exposed to in one form or another to varying degrees in my life and my career more specifically and I guess that means that I shouldn't have had to do any research but I do the research because I want to get my facts correct because memory is a funny thing and that gives me the opportunity to refine my thinking order minus the discussion and to ensure that I'm not missed remembering certain key facts and it also provides me a reference points I can review and say yes this is a good reference material for this object if you want more information and that's great but it's also an opportunity for me to cover it over to think of how mental explain it and then when I do the episode and I do go through it and then I get feedback to make corrections essentially I am teaching this back and that in that process I am learning and I've learned is a lot in the last nearly 2 years doing the show isn't been an opportunity and an excuse for me to push the boundaries of my knowledge and is to improve the strength excellent so I'm grateful for that because honestly how mean if you do a podcast or a show like this I guess you could just read Wikipedia or you could read a bunch of different articles on the Internet that really as good in terms of educating yourself as trying to then explain that other people it's all great to internalise it but when you trying to explain to someone else it forces you to understand it I think as thoroughly as possible and I've had that opportunity and I'm grateful for the opportunity caught excellent arm I think that you've already incidentally answered prior to this question and any answers to some of the last few minimally going throughout anyway case you feel like there is anything you want a but the most satisfying aspect of the show anything bad being on what you already said incidentally to the other questions are I think that's a different question gaining I find dissatisfying about it arm that that the easy answer is to say while the option of everything I found satisfying was dissatisfied this section the of the Venn diagram is therefore any other section yet arm honestly it's hard to find anything I would say was really dissatisfying are not ending pragmatic because it was dissatisfying as a whole are or even in the majority in parts it's more of the fact that it's a lot of work and it's become work and if there's anything it was dissatisfying it's that been that transition from hobby to job which I discussed with Eric are a few episodes go and are on the things of 79 role the seasons and the fact is that's this has become a job a second job and is it should not be I have a job to pay their bills this doesn't this can't therefore distraction especially when there's a lot happening at work at the moment especially when arm you know family is getting busier arm Mikey I've got more my kids in sports there doing more extracurricular activities I will be a part of II wonder not sit down said that is good to prep for the next episode and have my kids sort of northern sort of video glumly I don't want those opportunities to just keep slipping away, spend more time with them while they were spend time with me that and there will come a time as you know are when that is no longer the case when arm they are doing their own thing and I don't want that hang around that that's fine and maybe maybe when maybe if it was a show the required (maybe was if it was a show that was arm easier to to create that would be different but then it would be just like every other one yet so how do you satisfy both criteria and the short answer is you can't therefore it has to end yesterday with my report I think I have decided right I think you have two and in I respect your decision and I support it 100% arm it's really good that that you can look far enough ahead to think you know I need to make sure I can enjoy these days and these these these moments with my family and my children mail because sadly so many people don't realise that NTL the moment skyline and they messed it people think they know what's important but honestly so many people don't and I mean I don't half the time either I'm just doing my best and you I don't like to think about this as being you was the last year and 1/2 for nearly 2 years of making a show was this all was a waste in I don't think so not all are was it whether opportunity is lost that I could spend time with my family yes there were and I do regret some of them yes arm but they been really supportive and they've been really patient and the time has come for me to reward their patients with more of my time so you the ego I think that the great et cetera great let's let chef topic to topic for a moment the arm watch your absolute favourite topic that you recovered Michelle arm that's actually really almost impossible to answer because a lot of topics I really enjoyed covering arm none of them stand out I guess there's personal I guess we undertook that personal enjoyment arm i.e. I personally enjoy doing the radio so look minor wise arm because it's a topic about radio radio got me into engineering think it's a pretty safe bet to say that if it wasn't for that CB radio that I got when I was you just a teenager that I would be sitting here talking to you right now that pragmatic would not exist I would not be an engineer God knows what I would have been doing and I love the idea of Domino effects of cause-and-effect I love the idea of everything happens because of a series of events that lead up to it and I love going and tracing back asking why five or 505,000 times to figure out when did it all start talking about a topic for me that for me is been the biggest part of my professional career arm was a lot of fun and I did precious little prep for that episode property for five hours I can remember the exact figure because so much of it is in my head that I didn't need to I did need to fact check most of it are because I just knew it so well and I was fine it was fun so are unfortunately the majority of listeners did not see it that way and that's why no no everybody because I raised will begin and give you a little they want not what I want this was the area a least favourite topic or a topic that you actually regretted covering after-the-fact I arm I'm gonna mention one okay I will mention one topic that I I don't regret any topic that I did in its entirety I regret the reactions that it drew and my mess are how I may have been misinterpreted and perhaps how I could have been clearer perhaps that's the book the regret that I have the most and that is episode 10 are referred to before which is passion of academic proof a lot of people sent me a lot of very angry feedback about that episode arm and you can imagine the sector that it came from it was from educators I would think that we saw my year that saw the episode as an attack on their profession and that was not my intense the problem is that with with academia is that there reaches a point where academia is as is a construct to perpetuate itself and as an engineer I find that frustrating as hell because if you're not adding constructive value you're not adding value and if an academic exegete institution only exists to perpetuate its own existence and doesn't educate people for any beneficial way then why does it exist yet that's my simple way of thinking and honestly I found it frustrating but the point is of course nothing is ever black or white and the truth is that universities have a very important role to play there's lots of research and development that that universities do they have advanced arm our society and our technology absolutely varies arm but there are good universities and there are bad universities and arm the fact that everyone seems to be so obsessed about these pieces of paper that prequalification arm is not to say that you do a wave universities it just means they change their focus rather than focusing on a broad certificate it should be a series of certificates of competency that's what them argument the episode was and I would rather people focus on what they are passionate about which is a specific subset of engineering topics and get qualifications in those specifically which make you immediately useful to accompany rather than a broad base of half baked are incomplete are yellow qualifications rolled to one big piece of paper that eventually proves you're a jack of all trades and master of none and that was the gist of the episode but unfortunately a lot of people I did not explain that thoroughly enough and a lot of people stop listening to the show and were very angry about me personally about my attitude and senile comments like where your you you have a degree and you how can you say things like that psych while it's because I've gone through that and I've seen both sides of this that I can provide that argument that people are invested in their opinions and put a piece like that out and sometimes a matter what you sentiment a phrase it they will be offended arm because you are they perceive as an attack on on them and on their way of life were nothing could be further from the truth what it is is I'm trying to do here I am now still try to correct my mistakes on episode 10 arm I regret that topic because I did not explain as well as I could have maybe I'm still failing and trying to explain it immediately get more angry email from a few educators the left I don't know I hope not arm because honestly it's not what I meant there so you think you might also just incidentally enter an extra bit of stability throughout just in case there is yet you have one you feel differently about or who is there is more to possibly add to that I'm you feel there is any topic that you have covered that you fell short on drop the biologist didn't do justice and if so why and feel free to say she previous answer if that case I will put my hand up and say an episode recently are I feel I dropped the ball and that's because I've had a long series of emails with our Nick Radcliffe are about as and that's the episode on our on DRM and soccer I was in a lot of time pressure are and have been the last few months then it should be obvious perhaps it is not perhaps it is I don't know but just take my word for it I've been under a lot of pressure at work and it has been difficult so although I had a lot of time to do prep I didn't have enough and there are some key points that I missed and at this point I'm not planning follow-up I tried to address them privately with Nick are in response to his feedback I hope that I've clarified my position ultimately though it probably does warrant a fob episode and at this point in time is pretty not going to happen but unfortunately however I feel like I let him down and I let some listeners down by not covering certain topics and onlooker bring up was topics now because that would make this an embedded follow-up and that is in the spirit of show that the low arm that has an early age can't do Derby break own rules and that would just be right regret so anyway I cannot be a high propriety that would be bad so anyway arm you that survey were down to the last two questions and I think these are religious and then a I have some stuff I want to say after that that is just to set arm what will you miss the most about doing this you are I will miss the feedback and I said that arm say again I will miss the other follow-up on the feedback about show are it's been wonderful to have so many people that have genuinely love the show arm you know they say that the has a song go he's gonna hate hate hate so you people that have come back and saying negative things about show and I've spoken develop on casters and it seems like that's rare it seems like they cop a lot of more lower popular podcast podcast with you even lesser download numbers than mine arm cop a lot more flak than I have which is art to me is amazing that it I've got such wonderful listeners and I feel bad actually about attending the show now because I've had so many people have been so disappointed the shows ending I felt a little bit bad about it I think I should feel quite a lot bad about it because I'm I'm taking away something that people enjoy that ultimately I have to look at myself and my family is well in my own time commitments but arm you know that if if if if anything else that would alone be enough to spur me to move on that I've made other commitments and I have other pressures that at the moment I simply cannot get around and arm would not seek to our importantly so arm yet on the miss that Right last question got a channel little bit of anything in my curly hair arm what's next for a giant energy okay what next to me is arm analyses and is a passable English accent that we really really need to work arm's anyway arm okay I have made no secret of the fact that I'm intended to do some more on the contact distortion on coffee so I and is going through a phase of copy phase in my life and I have been writing a bunch of stuff in the background in parallel in my spare time which has not been much and I'm building an entirely new section of the website that will be coming up very shortly in the next 5 to 6 weeks or so timeframe will see how we go I'm horrendously bad time estimates so maybe this bit longer for safe anyway so watch this space arm I will post about its arm for people and pragmatic as is tangentially related to episode 30 are and will build on that and there will be more much much more and I have something in mind that is I think different and unique are still see how we go are it will not be another podcast at this point time know I need a break from podcasting so Unisys or the written stuff from me for a while and down on the same or the max of 50 much of life in The school now arm before we close open before we wrap the something they wanted to say arm quite some time ago seems like eons ago now I cannot honestly remember where I first stumbled across Duracell but I remember listening to the first episode I ever heard of it it was an earlier episode Sieben a longtime fan of pragmatic and was back in the Felix stays with you and Ben and it was a really different shell from most what was in my queue and I just found myself really enjoying it and I continue to enjoy it now even as a host and as a listener to that when you have guessed. And I wanted to take a moment to do on behalf of myself and the Internet in general to say thank you for making this shell thank you for the time that you put into this show and it's appreciated and it will be missed arm I know you've you've struggled and you really gonna do what's best for you and your family exposure time commitments and they do not begrudge you framing the show at all and I'm just grateful that it's here I'm grateful that you've decided that you can leave things up for a while so that people can continue to revisit it and new people can continue to download and enjoy and I also want to say on on a personal note that arm is been a while back now but you sent me and I am ready to Twitter one day in and you disclaimer lightly tossed the idea out there that you were interested in getting back to a regular co-host and that you were thinking about using me for that and I wanted to say that I was really flattered and honoured by that arm I've really enjoyed being the co-host of the shell I have really enjoyed that the report we developed an end to just get chance to chat with you and hang out with your escape and talk about the stuff arm I like to address that I never felt that you never gave me an opportunity to talk you wouldn't shut up arm a lot of people of the letter Q about me or not because you got your love that with me for obvious reasons arm but I will say that far to the contrary you have always asserted that I should feel free to speak up whenever I felt they had something to add especially in the early days when you didn't think I was speaking up enough and I think sometimes you properly still feel that way you are was been really supportive of that and it's been a real pleasure in a real honour to her share of the show with you and I want to thank you for giving me that opportunity thank thank you Victor some thinking is very nice you say idea and I I'm grateful that arm I was able to find arm a new co-host for the show arm in you and I think that you've done a wonderful job and I've appreciated the fact that our yellow U-value always are made the time even when we had last-minute scheduling insanity hands are I've appreciated the very very much so your rum your your flexibility in your your keen interest in participating show and arm some of the arm I think that some of some of the some of the best episodes that of the show that I've that I've done arm it it sort of it's been it's been you and me as as a team and I think that we've we've turned out some great content and I think debts are that the show has been better for your involvement arm and I also our yeah I guess is one of those things that you one arm tablet taking conference are thank you and your error talks a lot I might say are our I might wrap it up arm their banana wrap up the ending of this sum subtly differently because I can before we before we finish arm I'm gonna say a few words after the final final Robert it's important I did a final role so first of all alike start by thanking both of our sponsors for this the final episode show our first and our former scores to safely impair and the IRS at the shopping after sponsoring pragmatic if you're going shopping you a great collaborative shopping list at the shop we can help you out its ad free for the first month someone to check it out safely and that is SAPI ENT – pair is into.com/pragmatic I also like to thank Hopper for sponsoring pragmatic as well hover is a domain registrar that simple and easy-to-use of the valet service for your existing domain transfers making it simply the best way to buy and keep full control of your domain names check out hover@hover.com/pragmatic and finance just how easy it is to use an and use the coupon code exactly to get 10% off your first purchase let hover valet your domain stress away today now if you would like to talk more about this you can still reach me on Twitter and John Geagea are you also see my writing are this podcast as we said will be up arm for well let's just say a mere indefinite period of time are I decided to are to leave it up there is a long list of list of reasons why that some legislator will be there for the posterity I guess our hands are all that's hosted my side attack distortion are.com that will remain up and watch the new copy section that will be coming in coming months and if you'd like to get in touch with Vic what's the best way for the consultative egg they can find me on Twitter advocates in one fantastic now I'm also are going to continue to post occasionally to the pragmatic show account Twitter are if you want you can still follow an pragmatic show however obviously this can be more or less activity on that are so arm so the go arm one of the other things are I guess I won't do are as a final wrapup is pragmatic arm I think the point of the show for me is that time is precious and I think that's people spends so much of it listening to stuff that is either factually inaccurate or not well researched or arm is just background noise you know and maybe that has its place but I guess considering the time is precious I thigh I just hope that people can be selective and choose the better content that is out there and is because time is precious and we get so little of its in our lives you gotta choose how to best spend your life and greyness of the content does take time so if you want do something like this just be sure before you spend it are spend your time and diving focus on the details that matter in your projects in your job and your life and make pragmatic choices were of you can stay in the game and remember that you can only affect the world if you're a participant and if you're part of it arm and enjoy lives thanks again for listening everybody and thank you Vic thank you to arm and in�
Duration 3 hours, 10 minutes and 13 seconds Direct Download

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People

Vic Hudson

Vic Hudson

Vic is the host of the App Story Podcast and is the developer behind Money Pilot for iOS.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, programmer, podcaster and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John has produced and appeared on many podcasts as well as Pragmatic.

What Happened to Mastodon? You can reach me on the Fediverse as explained here, just search for me on your instance of Mastodon, Misskey or Pleroma and you’ll be able to follow/remote follow me wherever you are!