Pragmatic 59: Roll With The Seasons

Welcome to pragmatic in pragmatic as a weekly discussion showed practical application technology explain the real-world trade-offs of the great ideas are transformed into products and services can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode is sponsored by extrasensory devices and their amazing laxity for all and incident lightning attachment to your smartphone or tablet visit yes devices.com/pragmatic for more information about the handy luck several that no modern photographer should be without and take advantage of a special discount exclusively for pragmatic listeners this episode is also sponsored by Hopper, as a domain registrar that stands apart from the rest it is simple easy to use and understand the valet service for your domain transfer making it simply the best way to buy and manage your domain names check out harbour@homo.com/pragmatic and finer just how easy it is to grab your own domain or transfer your existing domain to Hopper using the coupon code absolutely to get 10% off your first purchase let harbour valet your domain stress away today was all about them or during the show on your host John Geagea and I joined today by my guest host Eric SA doing Eric to agree China and thank you for coming on arm IEA was was hoping to get on numb technical difficulties at some point you guys some budding doctor drank held that shows what happened are now if anyone we can get credit for it we want to give it deducted well and that's totally aware sorry and putting an arm putting on the spot sounding a bit mean so I apologise in at night and we love ducted rang and that's why we love the given credit the fantastic cook but before we do arm before you get stuck in that as a couple of things to quickly talk about forgets over the topic arm so our visitors reminder about the other stickers I know some people are big fans of stickers so armed they can remain up there for a while longer what's interesting I've noted is that I sold a heap of a tiny little stickers and only two of the biggest stickers so if not to many more of those sell property in the next few weeks operating the bigger ones down arm beside any of X number of slots of over four stickers and I was gonna put some different ones up that are not related to want to pragmatic so I'm just putting on is openly one of the popular senior art now before the show ends are as announced last week arm that the Shelby ending arm at episode 63 which is the end of March I have one final final final I promise final arm vote that listeners can participate in if they want to now you can go tech distortion.com/pragmatic Sonop/podcast/pragmatic that do/pragmatic W link there in the show notes arm if you're not sure and you can vote in your favourite episodes of the pod casts is completely anonymous if you want to be and I be telling the results of the final episode is an ideal bunch of stats and we are looking at minimum basically I'm curious what listeners favourite episode was high point slow points I sort of thing so arm this is vital for that last last episodes if you like to participate you can as a state anonymous if you want to be however as an incentive for those that are interested in the day that those are like stickers and is as domestic as I'm gonna pick out three random entries with valid email addresses and I'll announce them during the final episode are and those people get a free sticker sent out to them so animal grown enterprises there but the go so if you want to there is a chance to get free sticker I go there is is vote and this time I've made sure that you can you can choose are you don't have to vote on episode have listened to it so they will default to X no opinion you just click what your seagoing gun to write it no more blurb you have feedback about people hated the blurb before them so yeah you did was was one thing we were we were ridiculously lucky with one a tent recall any negative bit of feedback we regard wow okay as what made its what made an initial card in one of the things was it was just it was just rearing for people sale and everybody was unabashedly positive which is currently everybody is experiencing an elaborate you absolutely no worries I found doing are doing pragmatic is that I've had probably 98% are positive feedback are that the thing is I take occasionally you'll get some negative feedback are and son as you don't know whether or not it's it's it's meant to be constructive or it's meant to be spiteful but is now one time I had doubts and feedback that said down John doesn't do any research and not sure if that was meant to be an inside joke regarding ATP or not but still it was directed at me so I had a CMYK identification of 30 hours I did last week didn't count right anyway so arm but you generally it's a pretty is been overwhelmingly positive so you is it hard it's hard sometimes that you can read the read between the lines whenever you get some some better feedback 88 think I think everybody who takes the time to send feedback to something like this given the small listenership that we are relative to the whole world will not tell Swift that Fisher's arm know it seems like everyone is trying at least because in in in at least that the podcast environment were and if you don't benefit if you want to show a warrior lesson check you have the so that's why I was what we really lucky because we have that kind of self-selected audience and do well for you guys went for a minced game acted to generational at the beginning right this is going way back to 70 dB I think memory serves and you and arm that was the reason 1/2 years ago four years ago longer it may have ban it may have been at least three years ago that it is also is down now we still have all the shows on around honour and is well liked arm are you registered out with armpits I would just gape and now he was nice to have me on our or silly and foolish enough to have me on arm he stated that in arm in 2012 and I did I didn't come on as a guest until (2013 Catharina I guess the point I was getting at is that that's a lot of farm momentum like listener momentum is that people listen at your pickup listeners along the way some drop-offs and become fans and you know it tends to slow buildup with time the one thing I've either positive is one thing I take take away from this is that arm yet are people that have got really really successful pod casts arm like in terms of massive download numbers and that's not necessarily a measure of success is to be clear about that but still arm they are people that have already done something previously and yes it so it builds as well as in the public arena whether or not it's a new chair whether or not it's on their blog are whether a release and act is always something else it's very unusual to find someone who is actually come from a background of none of that public momentum to come into a podcast and is then actually got lots and lots of downloads and high popularity and highly listen to you and at work that's what I personally don't really lucky because Gabe in addition to being wildly arm living without doubt whether Best Buy gases I've ever known both in interviewing and just being able to run it in general gives it a fantastic blog I don't know where he has the time of his state as rich as he does bite boy if it's it's that's that's a heart that the high bar to reach a sewer that mediate that made it easy for us because he had already built that audience while the hours I was a bit disappointed so cows late to the game right idea I had listened to want episodes of generational back in the day and also had a break I came back to it midway through the TD era I guess you'd call it arm and then only just recently I start listening to Dawn patrol and as well as things I was head-butting my wall recently because of psychiatry I'd I didn't click use this ridiculous of me excelsior my feed them like now to look at that same guys to our you can and I finally got around listening, this is awesome they just cancel our well what will we run into is that mean TD was such an expansive show to produce and yet is not late in money it was expensive and time and energy and so what we hope to do with DP was can alternate them where we would do cover hi Lomax where maybe just 21 TD show a mind wanted issue every two weeks and then you now be able to do deeply weekly and networks but we found that it just wasn't it wasn't as compelling for us to produce and we felt like we felt like we were we want to go out before we are quality realistic driving is funny how many of the things that happen things you're saying that the dovetail with my with some minor reasons and amending pragmatic is it's it's very similar now for me is that is a lot of effort that goes into making the show and our army I don't mind having a show that is just this conversational I gasp at the same time I don't know I don't get the same kick out of it because to me assist a bit gets a bit samey and done it I think it's okay to have a show where you just listening to the personalities and its CEO which I guess for me was now that that was Dawn trial whereas TD was more arm your educational entertainment if you'd like arm you know are and the differences this is pretty starkers I gather what one sort of like a background arm filler sort of sort of the appetisers not manner detrimental weights as meat nylon I knew exactly what you mean you this is something that you can you can be working now you can actually be doing stuff and listening to people chat and an interesting whereas when I'm listening to you would like when I was in a pragmatic and it is it is I will listen to hear everything is anonymous and you gotta concentrate and I guess yet to very polar opposite Connor shows but some I like both my mom Shayna gone but I completely sympathise with why so that's okay thanks all this is something I think the medium in order to manner by that arm year there there is an expectation that very much like a radio show like Howard Stern is something you can be there all the time forever every week you now and it's night more like a TV show where will meet with season with brick maybe we recharge your batteries and come back I would love to come back to both of them shows arm it's just night nuts of the wicked yet fair enough well this is actually a good lead into the topic and is what we going on about our listeners if you're wondering what the topic is arm but are Eric and I wanted to go in and talk about some motivation in the balance between enjoyment and our commitment so our end pod casts and the podcast we both made arm that Eric's cases are just only just recently arm technical difficulties and are Dawn patrol are both wrapped up and down doubling the show notes that those are the two very awesome podcast you should check them out even though they have ended this still a back catalogue of really good stuff out in my case are pragmatic sending shortly so you I thought it was a good time to talk about motivation as to what why we got into not just podcasting but you what why we do what we do why we work why we make things and is arm so it's a good point to start about our size in centimetres will be on episode 41 arm talking about our recognition are that was our exciting score meaningless token award and arm I guess the thing with the gates of the divine honour draw is and discuss flashover this is hobbies versus jobs and motivations for each and it's kind of one of those fluffy subjects are don't have a lot of notes so because it's hard to do notes on a topic like this so arm I guess motivation and driving force behind what you do makes a massive difference but only makes a massive difference I think during that the darker periods when when enthusiasm is waiting and ready to quit and I guess I guess that's so that's the place to start you and and that's I do think that this is a topic that is easy to over systematise not necessarily everything but leg it's it's tempting to put a template on this and now just not just apply it to more than one person in a place yourself at different times in your lives I would I like that this distinction between Harvey and Joab because in many ways I feel like I've only ever had one Joab arm in in my entire life worked near original Walgreens EI Casey drugstore when I was in a school and it was definitely a job like in the sense that I do want a beer but I only get because I need money and I was ridiculously lucky that pretty much everything I've done since then I would have done as a hubby even if I didn't get paid for it and the times I ended up leaving them which is, sad are the times when AA felt like the hubby parties waiting there and I don't know what that means about my personal stick to a deafness but a file to nowhere have been a little spoiled EAA it sounds it sounds like it's been because I I wish I could say something similar but most of the jobs that I've had I've I have not necessarily enjoyed so much until recently as a recently lost 10 years if that's recent depending on your point of view I guess but are coming I've had jobs they are in retail than it was definitely a job are glad I did it that Jesus was rough arm I doubt or better previously are also worked in oddly enough mechanical design which was as knowledgeable engineers bit weird but the gala lots about some are split washes are crinkle washes and beryllium and so on but never mind that our you know so and it was quite a job because I did not enjoy that all as I was brief and anyway the only the jobs I've enjoyed more most recently are working for a bigger company were the jobs and control system software and and switchboard manufacturing that that's been my most enjoyable are jobs that I've done arc is not a big fan of politics I can deal with politics and big offices but I I really can't stand it arm I it's just so easy to tear it to pieces and look at and shake your head and think this is completely pointless in every possible way to know so are II do our ideal I do wish I had more about more experience like yours but that's okay arm so are I guess the whole hobby thing I want to talk a bit about that so by the definition of a hobby is an activity that is done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure and what I that that in of itself is not interesting was interesting exactly where it came from so apparently based on what I was competing upon nurses are in late middle English it was a permutation of farm Holborn or hobby and those are platforms of the given name are Robin and again you middle English what can you do so arm anyway originally it is sort of came to denote a toy horse or a hobby horse yellow Gallagher rocking horse sort of thing our hands the concert offers an activity done for pleasure and every time now from now on you think about his my hobby can think of a hobbyhorse or a toy was a rocking horse to the go that's that's what when I when I read that I might seriously are neither through Underwood hobby for me from now conjuring up images what you hobby on the podcast and am podcasting rocking a rocking horse anyway so arm Lego rights are so in terms of our hobbies and sound that I've had in my in my life are the biggest ones I've had be other than podcasting has been no amateur radio and don't have a lot of my time are my late teens and are in early to mid 20s so other than other than podcasting and Asea only ever had really one job of the Walgreens but arm would you say that there are any other hobbies that you been into outside of than podcasting and time year and and so in a baseline now that you define hubby again so I guess technically technically my real bed Joab has been less than less than no less than fine and less than less than a toy 20 times arm from me my hubby is my hubby was actually always playing in computers and computer science degree and added international politics and in college and yet rate than I had I was messing flexibly as that was my big is using a you to make my parents recover smoke that they kept the Computer and my hands why was growing up is anything to lose me arm I did in my room all day and sell the agate college coniferous computer and I some 46 SX 33 from Dell yet arm and that was my hubby that was my big hubby assumes a guard that it weighs arm it was between games and it was hacking late-night hacking on games like not creating or trying to break games but trying to train unlimited as games was a well-defined or extending the sale as before Microsoft I simply found dad and added budget budget margins. At that was a blast arm and became really became IRB and I realise probably why I realise basically for a computer science class for you that this is their people Galactica degrees unless the ability to do this all the time yeah you believe that yes, crazy IVIG that you are so are so you are young enough that I am when I did engineering I had an option a lot of people though that came out of far high school with me we should have that with similar interests we so diverged and a bunch of people when over computer science/IT and down the other the other rest of us went over in an almost the rest of us then did engineering but the existing number of people a ditty of engineering and then said you know what we really want to do this we can go over and do IT and computer science and a set of now so the severe second year is a huge drop in numbers of people just defected and went to the other side of the fence but anyway arm call very good so I guess some are right yes okay so doing something fun the problem I've got I guess were doing something fun is that the moment stops being fun you stop doing isn't a bad thing I do know maybe that's not a bad thing but I guess I wanted the answer I think real hard part about that is is when it's none of it is not a problem let's say that you make Milo points are said it's just like me plastic market was cared there is nothing wrong with getting tired of that if this attitude use and run plan and in building kits and you tailor that just walking away and come back think the challenge starts to become winner hobbies involve other people yes thank you exactly and that's where I was going so arm absolutely right because then that whatever hobby that you do affects more than just yourself because it's so easy to pull up sticks and sale done if it is only you but if you involving other people and I thought about this are beyond so we we may put castles and people of like the podcast and so we announce year will stop art suddenly our decision about our hobby as yet has has consequences beyond ourselves well not that that should play a big part or not is open for debate I guess but I I thought about what other hobbies are there where that is the case and a lot of it comes down to how actively involved you are like in amateur radio for example are you if you're involved with them maintaining some the repeater systems organising them the club meetings or or Hammerfest or whatever you're doing how you know obviously if you decide one done with that and I can have an impact if you're volunteering in different locations I say you're part of an archery club Laura swimming club whatever else in your doing part-time coaching timekeeping whatever you might be doing scoring at Yan & C pullback that you affect other people want more by your absence than anything you're actually doing which is quite an interesting twist on that some I guess the question is the and is in business and the symbiotic part of it is that I think very few people start our hobby with affecting anyone else immediately is something that sort of grows that the more you get into a hobby and then the question is does that change from becoming a consequence of what you're doing and become part of a motivated to continue doing it here I think that's either given something together arm I pay I started playing guitar seriously and by seriously night incredibly seriously but is leaving just messing around with it why was that arm I was impaled really was when it Caricom down a little bit and I then relegated to a look at past that and that was great and I had some friends of Lynda Benn a delayed music in high school and a bit Lakeway stuff nothing nothing nothing cool Sowards it was great to go and like like watchband land eventually a practice more and more and when my you know my my friend at the time Mark had had gone deployment I jumped in the asthma can jump in and sit with them and hence it was being banned was the closest of intellect podcasting for example are you in in in my life I think in the sense that much like a group podcast or isolate any sort of relationship you can deal with other people what their desires are and it always seems to like everybody's trying to balance the workload to because there is always any hubby you have there are nine fun but I arm practice and meeting scheduling a meeting boy and I'm sure you never experience the nine fun part part of podcasting rages as well since you brought it up yet arm him since you brought up your arm it online yet editing the thing is if I'm vomiting it if there is a two-hour episode of the show which you guarantee many of them but occasionally they happen Mercado it's a momentum problem but anyway arm ASO arm to our show it's gonna take at least two hours more like double that and add a bit in order to do the full edit on that and it's just because you have to you listen back into going through it you listen back I listened back to the transitions between segments between the intro and the outrun multiple times to make sure that I haven't missed anything up our and then once it's been bound ones once you've in logic you bounce that that they called bouncing whatever anyway you want your output to the final edit and then once you do that yet the meta data in an sinus oval than I have one last listen to that usually the beginning the end and the transitions because I'm got I listen to it before another two hours and are anyway so it takes like her to our show is usually about five hours worth of editing time and that's yellow as a some people said I was not finite while yeah I guess it's not that the same time a sort of a consequently put up with it because well it's challenging and it is actually worth doing and not sure it is very necessary late and and it's it's part of the hubby were downwards which good is and I'm sure I'm sure the public like some man's been around with no personnel changes relate the entire time with you to is a good example the arm just like some some podcast around for a very long time I think one of the really great things as if you're in a hubby with the group and you can find some people whose interests are balanced enough that that what they think what everyone thinks is called the other people would be happy to hand over to them and you can find some sort of balance of fruit arm is that Ben something that you know if if having been in a band where there was a very unbalanced level of effort when that guy was ready to set down in the last fun parts for the other guys booking arm you know setting up practice venues deflect that that was we redundant the Argo was done he sat down we relate I only know how to do that stuff and have your contacts so so I think group hobbies you can get in a situation pretty easily where were you can all rely on a member if you have good balance yet that's interesting because the other part of this is the at it sound like you say as a group hobby as I as a hobby that ideas and that I want to do I motivated to do this but now with a group of other people who are directly art him whom the continuation of this activity is now depend upon and if you've got the majority of people in that group are moving in the same direction have the same our end goal and are enjoying it then it tends to reinforce and provide more motivation to continue whereas like you said it there's just that one the one person sort of like you holding parts of it together and they suddenly flip a switch in the sewer: done and then it falls apart so quickly that it's in me a near instantaneous I've seen it happen before arm are in in the sports team in our example we are clever cricket team there for a while has similar end result so because you want to talk the guy was doing all the organising away and he said look okay when done arm a variety said someone else can take over and we played two games that was the end of it so you were interested in you take arm weigh about those hobbies that lion wine cellar so something that may be started hubby and instant mix in some some income from you get people expecting you to come and get people who are or are looking forward to your next shell or your next episode your next performance you're getting paid maybe a little bit not enough to go full-time but a little bed and so actually there are financial expectations that do that and have you experienced that and has that affected like your enjoyment are visible arm I definitely have a have experienced that with this show and are it does it shay does change things are considerably what once you start once you start accepting arm money either from from fans of the show threatening my catering on or are from sponsors who are you have had a product that they want to go get out there either way are you are now committed because it's like if you give me your under that the funny thing is it's it's kind of a has two parts of it that the first part is a sponsor part of it is I feel like there is an obligation a contract now between me and the sponsors so they can give me you have much money and I'm gonna talk about their product and you first of all I'm nine now I now feel responsible depending upon how well that goes if listeners are interested if they support the show Fay that if there is in the product and so on because then of course you get sponsors come back and sold us say that the campaign did really well and I didn't do very well at all and then you don't effects directly you whether or not I want to keep going right thereafter goes badly unlike while because I've had some sponsors that have done really really well arm you and I've done had other sponsors that have not and I feel absolutely gutted when you sponsor) is all that we haven't done very well and because I feel responsible like okay well I did what I just I didn't sell it well enough I didn't want what did I do wrong with that they set as a thing as a bad fit in a Ensco be the right fit for the show and in the right of the audience and mean what was the point in impending refrigerators if no one wants refrigerated for example yummy I and I don't know my demographic necessarily other reasonable idea basin who gives me feedback but it's only is only a small slice of the overall listeners so it's very hard mitigating I refuse to do a survey on design principles so I and even if I did do a survey I don't think that would give me a meaningful idea of his in the audience anyway so that actually has bigger become somewhat of our of a D motivator which is odd arm I thought about moving away from sponsors and going towards our Patriot style but the problem I've got with that is that you're still obligated because I'm now taking money from listeners to continue to do the show to produce the show to you to host a tab all of that takes on the online taking other people's money to provide knife I have to give them something back I can't not so it's then announced the investor – the point where you think it becomes it's funny it's almost become a D motivator up to a point and it's almost easier to not take on sponsorship to not do pay tree onto simply put it out there because it's a hobby and just keep that line in the sand and never cross it because if you do then it just changes the complexion of it and it changed at all pointers through RIA and and and you touch on something that really impacted as in both generational entity we were never really are we never really crossed the sponsor barrier and we never we we had thought about doing something like Patriot arm and and and sell we were faced with a lot of the same dilemmas and we were lucky enough that we were lucky enough that we could continue to put out the show and support the stuff that we have the money that we are putting into the shower arm just read out of our pockets we are definitely in a position where we considered hey if we can if we can turn this into anything and get some revenue out of that it would make it easier for us to spend some more unison what time on it but there was that huge fear just like you described as one now it's coming of the job whether it's a good judge whether it's leaking a well-paid Java knight and boy never never take a look at the encumbrances timespan on on a hubby like that and then bring it out in our inner enter into income per our boy that that's not good now vary but I think you and I think the crowdfunding thing is really interesting really interesting part of this because for a if you sponsor you can you can you can try and figure metric for the sponsor and see if it whether or not worth it to them that's good and that business that still business to immediately is that doesn't seem like a hubby but that's necessary if you can have our sponsor funded and and supported shell but legacies you get into crowdfunding let CA unless you want to crowdfunding manikin 08 pie I like pragmatic lights only give you 100 bucks arm and I give you 100 bucks and arm and in some and you get maybe you'd let's just see you just get my hundred bucks and and it doesn't really doesn't go far enough for you to do what you want to do arm because that was me before like a year well I contributed I did I did my part and so for everybody else was like well yeah I was really that I was really interested in so as you find it but they're not out anything whereas for your dedicated most dedicated listeners are most dedicated followers they put their heart and soul and literally in our money into this and and where is the return and set that's that's what's really horrid because they didn't return it just doesn't always end up that way you and it's also the other the other thing the other problem is that if you end up are in a position where you know all the people that are supporting the show and let's say that you know there's more that is Derek let's say that there's doesn't just a bigger I say around number 12 is not actually around look at whatever the say doesn't set as a dozen super fans that all put money on the line are negative funded continually for the next Yate any time timespan indefinite so you could continue to do it you have enough mind to do it and is a little bit extra money aside is a little bit of a motivation to continue doing a psychological dye connection five bucks a month out of that's fantastic the artist keep doing it blogs it is don't look at the hourly rate because if you do then you'll hear your heart will break but that's okay point is suddenly you're now making a show for 12 people and they'll say to you are you should really talk about arm wallpaper and unlike but I don't like wallpaper and I don't I don't have wallpaper in my house and but but their findings show the procedure in our house are that episode 64's anyway go to the point is that you suddenly become its it's no longer it's no longer pragmatic it's now arm it's now show for the fans that that specifically want you feel like you need to give them what they want specifically because now you know who they are you know that they are the ones that are contributing to the show and cease to become pragmatic become something else and I think that there is nothing wrong with that if you're okay with you properly study Renato Kiwi that it is no longer a hubby for you sure but is not as they had that dinner show become something that that is less applicable less interesting to a whole bunch of other people so far and that day and that that that that could be a problem or may not be a problem comes back to how you define arm success and if success is a reason a motivation to continue doing your your hobby so I mean if you doing hobby just because you love doing it doesn't matter about the money if you've got other source of income are but the money can be a motivator but I think honestly the money can be a D motivator as well whether it comes from Patriot Andre crowdfunding with an eye comes response I think that it's honestly it's a very it's a double-edged sword and is a sharp one you gotta be careful with it and it's a sort of thing that I wanted to have sponsorship on pragmatic arm from the early days on Fiat likes but it was a sort of thing that we are still building momentum and is our when I first got some responses on the show back are our fellow Fiat likes it was that it was a gradual thing I start with one and I wanted to when I had a few of sponsor and follow-up as well and all it's been a pretty relatively positive experience but at the same time it has turned this into our more of a job and I really have a job are and on hourly rate bases there is no comparison night podcasting pays terribly compared to my day job unless you run a network it and it's an even then I look at the my expenses and everything there is no way even if I ran a network knowing what I know now arm there is no way I could make that work and I there seems to be this this idea is possible and it is possible within a set of farm very strict constraints some people can pull off but it's not easy and I think legally I think I think the gold standard for how this is gonna work hard or whether it can work is watching the transition the diadem spirit is making sure if Max party it makes working to make the jump that he is you that his blog about basically moving from Elkanah full-time McLaughlin to his own private life are taking time to focus sign Mac power users all his arson box arm II think 18 that's agreed existence proof somebody you can make that jump there is definitely a wide base of experience from people out there myself included who have gone through this transition because my current Java software development and it was because I started as a hubby enjoyed friend of mine Yuri has some clients I experienced this transition in our big time whereas like wow this is this is really being obligated to do this stuff really has it has as an impact on my motivation so I think this opens up the possibility that if you have a jar that you can edit the just jarred that you can stand leave you a lot of time for your hubby's maybe maybe we should all be fading fading that temptation is ignored I wanted to this the overtime that is at an end there are people out there who are you in that big millimetres argued against our following your bless many many times you absolutely I think that it's a that you make an excellent point and honestly it's a it's a day to date difficult is difficult because you hear some people say our year that the best time a job is one that some that's your your hobby that you enjoy a cycle yes but it's not about turning something that is a hobby that you do just for fun and turning that into a job by adding pressure and an obligation for less really can arm you don't think it's going to but it's going to sap your motivation you think you think I'll be doing what I enjoy site yeah but guess what it's not that it is night and a I am so I wanted to play appointment hoping to play well I was able I was wanting to do I wanted to I want to be a pilot I will define military force needed in really matter other than it was cool arm was lucky enough to get in and the moment I start enjoying flying was the moment I started having to do it and a night that there were no moments of absolute beauty and blessed that I will never see again by my dad my dad was an instructor pilot – he always told me grown easier for us and you know who I was asked was like it's gonna be some fun doing and is well it's not really fine is that it is rewarding is very rewarding and it can be it can be really really really just mind blowing sometimes he said it's there is too much to do to have fun because if you have if you having fun you getting behind and you know when you're flying a plane examine real fast so if you're if you're sitting there saying hola this is so much fine well chances are you're about to miss something really important and that could do can we get our mega megaphone situation and when little Alice find anything II5 flying was ridiculously rewarding are it was ridiculously difficult and it was definitely something that when I set it down arm which I only finally did about a year and 1/2 ago are from the reserves again are factored into thousand tablets arm it weighs it wise I was surprised at how relieved I felt that a few friends who who who told me similar thanks arm and there are a few people who could never think of setting it down but a lot of those people I found one night they didn't need the don't tend to be don't tend to be hobbyists so it's funny because the guys who eyed the guys you I know were able to set it down better or because you had hobbies and wanted to order knew that they had a different outlet from just flying and that was that it was really interesting I still basically from entire military career aced really late guard in a historical fiction our military history stuff like that and and literally as soon as I started doing it I couldn't read any of that stuff ever again and it wasn't because it was wrong it was because I alligator and flat flight simulator I can do any of that which was as I mentioned a big passion of mine for around it wasn't because he is wrong which was what I expected it was because it was too much like work here which was cool allow you will hold that thought a few questions on that before we go arm any further down that are bound down that path arm is little benefit sponsor and that's extrasensory devices now extrasensory devices their innovative company based in Palo Alto California and they recently released their all-new laxity for all and it's an incident like mere attachment for your smart family tablet if your photographer likes to take the best possible shot or even if you aspire to be a better photographer than precise control of your exposure is critical in a figure that out any reliable accurate light metre standalone light metres can cost upwards 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detects when the luxe is attached to your iPhone which is really gorgeous which is over change the mode of the activity and to the light detecting your portion starts reading a number spherical I suggested before that it's not as expensive as the most stand as my standalone me as well it's only 2995 and if you'd like to check one out just head over to ES devices.com/pragmatic to learn more and visit the Cooper and in the coupon code take distortion for 15% of your luck several photographers always want to take better pictures and taking better pictures starts with your laxity thank you to extrasensory devices for sponsoring pragmatic which is our slightly matter since I was talking about having sponsors and some but the gap are so right arm how old were you when you first arm got behind are gone to a pilot seat and studied fine harlot see that would abandon 20 to 22, now wound out because we are lucky eight aides and friends it it absent flows how quickly and pilot training was during military government commission rate out of our radio college ROTC and then again sent to pilot training right away you are you six weeks ground score and then now and any consensus director with primary witches are was my timeline that history for which is a cool little cool turboprop version of the art of the Bonanza okay arm I'm not a plane guy it's got wings and it flies I'm sorry to disappoint with Redeemer Julia now so EA was a you now, and fright the challenge arm the challenge of that and getting started and outweighs that day it was a very hands-on aeroplane because it's been replaced now by a much newer aeroplane quality sex arm by the jittery for always whizz the never-ending automatic was of you know all dials engages and are the biggest challenge for a further young aviator like me was that you had always trim so as to any damage is power anything like that the aeroplane would want to go up on to some weird wild tangents you're always trying to turn to movies will contribute from wheels which kind of tweak the control surfaces are you Nahas that we holding the stack and putting a lot of pressure on it because you have to change your change power of time and our insight had it it was kinda way guard is only balancing at a bowling ball about your always always moving I was doing something and always renovated and AA in the South Texas and it was very tiring and very sweaty especially in about £30 of leaky sale wow cool. But that was actually really good time for me to realise our flying is a lot of hard work and yet what was your worst was when I had instructed the base year yelling at me and telling me that I was doing a terrible job of it like wow that's not find being told you now hey you know this is you messed this up really bad and there would be a very frank as they had to be but what was nearest ways that arm that you always knew that if you didn't perform up to a certain level you died and NSL that was that was the hardest i.e. a bank I can think of any single time when the number one thing going through my brain was wow I can really die here most of the time it is wow militantly dumb here or significantly reduces again as were much more powerful motivators from BMI. Arm because we all dream to this our entire lives and so that was that was either was a big challenge from from a perspective this is a passion project a guardian they're paying you to do this but I definitely can see I did not do any of it for the money are and and and and at every moment you're pretty much like what am I gonna do really messed this up and never be able to do it again and I had friends who through our something you sometimes through through just inability sometimes inattention and sometimes through almost no effort at all were asked to never do it again and that was really wow so arm now you said you haven't done this in 2010 was when you won are when you went away from doing that some predominantly eyeballing you I'm sorry I forgot your terminology used as active duty basically lags when that was the time when it did start be my full-time job went to Beasley part-time job so I was flying in the reserves for a few years where it was current part-time but you know it flying flying and it is not really every part-time thing so it most of the guys who do really successful in the reserves have have jars on the outside allow them to do maybe half to 3/4 of their time flying the reserves and it was something I didn't have unfortunately so after a few years doing that AA set that aside as well because AA just the rather things are needed to deal even out of from outside to 3 years now that was at roughly about a year and 1/2 hours since a laxity is properly too soon to ask this question but I will ask it because I know it it's part of the topic and that is that difficile time in future when arm you would go back to flying just purely as a hobby thing where there is no just out of your own interest is to rekindle some of that deal it's been it's been interesting stepping away from it because it's kind of give me a prospective look the part that I really enjoyed and appreciated an approach that I particularly so arm so for me I was young I was looking up by the tomcat in which which was a really fast aeroplane would lower power so so it's not like African out a maverick and a fly really fast really high again in a way that it's like you know Leslie setting any personal records and record the record-setting part in a whether personal or otherwise was never revealed as a real drive from years of I was never flying for the thrill because boy are I had enough I had enough like a naturally fairly anxious person so late for me I was already beyond my thrill point as soon as I really this is a step to the applicant for a taxi before that when I go to simulators and realise that my performance every single bit of performance has been greeted it was it was it was basically arm it was interesting because that that the thing that was different about flying from me from Formica jar prospective different from anything done for as I just at school and in school you find it's not what you can do is really what you now what you can what you can do an attached but I mean you're sitting there with the tasks very very rarely are you an oral exam in a school environment acceptance since battlefield where from me this is a huge change because it didn't matter how well I knew my stuff it didn't matter that I could get hundred percent on every written exam handed me his that's just not a relevant metric in a jar like deviation arm is really a lot closer being a sports team so now is not whether or not you know everything about football is not really know everything about baseball basketball arm it's about whether when you know that stuff you can get out and in the heat of the moment perform cell are so that was that was just big because it's it's kinda scary knowing that I've done everything I can do this and I still might mess it up arm and so on so that that that was that was stressful now stepping out of it a few years later I can see that there were parts of it that I really enjoyed that were not the most stressful part of that there are it is beautiful flying it is absolutely gorgeous you know the things you see from the air or amazing cell cell from many civilian flying would have to provide access to those sorts of things that I really liked about it arm and so were the things I consider doing a sawing I'd really like to possibly get into that because for me it has it has to have a little bit a challenge to which which soaring as is definitely guard more and more than enough to challenge their arm and are an end to be something that's a little bit more peaceful if that makes any sense now from necessarily the military side peaceful but really something where I have some time to think because boy things happen fast you we've got a big gadget engineer can consider shooting along rather quickly so arm the thing is so make sure that I'm understanding correctly Wednesday soaring talk about some gliders but writing thermals and try to stay near as long as possible as that which you assess the threat I am lucky enough that where I live is near one of the greatest places in the West has to do our are given out out here for too long challenges civilian flying and for a lot of people either run and this is why it's expensive capias and it is either pilot are it's like having youngest times 10 as you pay for keep unit you get feed feed the plan you have to how is it you have to care for the brush at Bridget's coat gendered shoes arm so we are all taken care of by the that the Navy took care of all that for you previously right so it is that likely rumbling hopping the tomcat you liking are you all right it's the best you have the best means in the world and you know when you woke up that aeroplane if taken care of and that exceed this gets into a think I this gets us back to a little bit of a hobby part because for me yes I was very greatly spoiled was flying I've had friends were flown in a civilian world and arm and like a year we should go with you flying over watch what civilian flying entails and entails a whole means work in Intel's of taking care of your aeroplane arm way I'm not good at that stuff AA this is one thing that I've coloured about me is that I'm not at not actually details Britain are again I'm a moreover moreover visual guy which is either gate stumbled in the design bootleg details when they really matter stressed me out which I could do it I did it in the military but I do know that you mean it's on sale that that would be my fear going back to the civilian world is not sure that I am not sure that I'm decelerated enough to take care of my own plan and had enough time with the dog are sorry fair enough well okay cool you i.e. arm of voice and been interested in flying but it always struck me as being way too dangerous so me being risk averse well I in I think you are there a couple of incidents during my teenage years that may be more risk averse but that's okay it's a long story so arm core will thank you talk about act so I was always a bit curious about that and it is related to the to the topic and I guess one of the things that is that is interesting is that the blend between the the movement between because we start out talking about okay as a hobby turns into a job and now looking at okay what if we did a job that we enjoy the turns more into a hobby and the different trade-offs therein and everything I think a lot of this comes back to our why we do the things we do and is understanding that is is absolutely critical because if you don't understand why you're doing something when you start introducing these other other elements things that you like it if you're running a podcast to take on sponsors or if your are helping out at the at the swimming club and you and you volunteer to be arm yard that the president of the Treasury sale at new hire: a contributor Wanna help director will help make this a better a better thing and then that's gonna completely change the complexion of our that activity as a hobby and I think a lot of people underestimate just how much you can change it you the correct case of free only for this Wanna talk about our second sponsor and that is hover now hover is a domain registrar that stands apart from the rest owning and controlling your own domain is critical if you're developing an app writing a blog running a business project won't keep same email address for life example of you have any presence at all on the web as a domain is the single best way for other people to find you and the best way to buy and manage domain names is with hover if you don't currently have a domain name hobby can help you find the perfect one just for you hover supports a huge list of TLD's and their domain search is truly amazing you type in your best idea it tells you not only whether that domain is available but then suggest dozens of close matches that might be just as good or even better than your original suggestion sometimes people sign up for different hosting services that offer a free domain 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hover@hover.com/pragmatic finance just how easy it is to grab your own domain or transfer your existing domain to hover using the coupon code absolutely to get 10% off your first purchase let hover valet your domain stress away today thank you so much to hover for sponsoring pragmatic okay so I think was that of that on the are the downward slide here and now I would like to one recaptured a little bit about some about motivation and and the pressures that you get and I guess this is the one the other things this family friends peers and even strangers will would love to tell you what they think you should do or what you should be doing and that also plays a big part in whether it should keep going with with hobbies and so on and you from the family side of things it's like okay while this hobby is taking time away from family time so if you have a family especially if you have kids as well then there's a lot of pressure to spend more time with them and is I've heard I've heard it all from different people not just my experience but you it's like go so we will say my family is my hobby arm and I think that in terms of having a hobby and I guess is one of the worry of other problems is the definition of that is why do we have hobbies and I guess we I think we do most to have a hobby because our winning an outlet that is not the thing that drives us to draw a dude to draw the income to sustain our existence and and to sustain our family if we have one go we need something to do that is not we punch in we have we do a job we get a paycheck we punch out again when something is as an outlet if you will I'll either create it's usually a creative outlet I guess something we can't do nowt in our job and that the problem becomes if your family then that you need to balance that against family because the certain parts of creativity that you can't expect is because family has the problem I have with the statement that my family is my hobby is that while that's okay up to a point remember remembering of course that that having a family as it is is very different from just having a hobby because arm you families aren't all just playtime there also get the kids ready for school you are making lunches you know what cooking meals cleaning up after them most of those things I think most people are not the definition of a hobby unless making sandwiches as a hobby I guess is pretty someone's hobby but arm in a Massena site I think that'll hop you so I guess the problem I got is that you look at you look at the family time aspect and it's very very important to me so I don't want to neglect that and if a hobby starts to encroach too much on that time then that creates a limitation and you have to be aware of that time limitation and not not overstep that we reckon will and I think I think you've hit a really important point arm I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Harvey's by the very nature are extremely selfish from FES prospective that doesn't mean you shouldn't do that because we all have to take care of ourselves and we either take care of our you know I kind of mental energy and fur from at least hobbies are a mental report recharge themselves so the very necessary but anytime I'm doing hubby staff by necessity let's set aside the families are because the families I think the hobby that we should have but maybe don't enjoy quite as much as we would like arm I love my family and I love spending time with them but blatantly family as a hobby is as we've we've noted it there is a lot of work in my slate and out of before of likely editing a show or anything like that at the worksite of it or maintaining your own aeroplane you doing that you're doing some a lot of parts of those to get the rewards of the playtime and the degree relationship that we have been boy I have made and in this as this is pleading to you to let my relationship recently with with with hobbies alight is that I have spent a lot of my life 88 and married until I got out of the Navy and now we have a son, straight after and arm and so I spent a lot of my life basically not having to be accountable to anyone but me and my job/IB as it was the needy in the sense that that him first it was easy deducting first because you now doubt that was it was it was very easy for me to say night ago do this because needy now dead add that the Navy is the justification arm since then we kind of I've I've I've had my call I can't have Michael career my wife's position was just getting started when I got out of active-duty and Cyanamid are very kind decision at that point like hey this is her hobby life proceeded son to prioritise that which meant that as soon as we had our associate assigned will now every time that I spend on hubby staff year it it's gonna be kind of a conscious time ticking away from those other things and that's that's a tough transaction Omega for a while especially if you like to hobbies yet that's the other thing is out is that we wound talk about the lots of hobbies and lots of activities and the motivation behind that eye-I have a feeling that people have lots of hobbies are not entirely convinced that there they're focused enough to appreciate which one of them is a limited time in in the day got 24 hours in the day so ultimately you have to choose how to split dating ends and between work that earns you money our family life if you have a family arm and of course you friends assume presumably as well and then you've got a slice left to hobbies so the more hobbies you have the more thinly stretch you are the less you can get into any one of them and I decide reached a point where when I went why did podcasting went all in know I I've spent practically every spare moment of my time that I've had the last year and 1/2 approaching two years our livestock like toward it on the podcasting on prep broadcast work on the website supporting the podcast editing you you name it has some to do with the show I've had very little other time that I've spent on anything else so I got the point where I've I've IB I barely read our tech websites anymore are my life and I've listening to less and less podcast because I'm doing a result prep work and I if I'm listening to a podcast I can't concentrate on writing show notes so because I will listen to but just you I don't read a newspaper is much either and it's just I feel like I become disconnected that's really interesting I think you're right if that's your disconnection because I experienced exactly the same thing arm you not all of us I can be as because AA is debited as tediously keep doing this honey sound out of all these all these blogs arm and all the shows and continue to write about a mile and do this podcast because as soon as I started I felt that disconnection because the time that I had been spending being a member of the community I was spending building this building the shower building that was like arm and I don't know and obviously the only time I was able to find by the way was sacrificing sleep and while that seems at the beginning like a gag get up really early while that seemed like a great arm that seems like a pretty good compromise because on the surface you like hey I can sacrifice sleeping available as if it has a deep long-term effect on mood which affects everything I where you are it's it's fascinating you felt that seems of disconnection because I eat it all of a sudden remember how I said you know I couldn't completely similar as a modestly well when I started when I when I stories stories and podcast it became a real it it it's already feeling work lessening of the podcast I loved you like almost you took it to examine the magical way now because there were any worse because I felt lately because it kind of took something out of me and ordinal in a way it's been sad I will say that it's been great listening to podcast again now that I've I've stopped actually making their it's it's it's strange how that works it's a look at it as et cetera it's more it is partly like you say arm when you doing you if you're observing you not a participant in your so I get okay I mean you listen is another podcast used new tweet at them and say hey great show of some correction about this point whatever else or you know arm now I whatever the NASA form of interaction I guess but still you're more or less on the sidelines you're not a con you not creating content directly you're sort of you know you more a participant urine observer and the other Trent and soon as you move from being an observer to being an active our contributors and I'm actively now going to create this thing makes are going to participate in this is gonna come my job or a predominant part of my life suddenly you're not so much of a person that sits on the sidelines anymore because you don't have time and you're already doing it so why would you then go on and spend hours of your day then listening to other people doing what you're already doing and it's in that that sort of a transition but that that the thing it's interesting though and I guess that the point is that that's how I I know how much you love flying is because when you're not flying your stimulating flying is lover which is which which is great you now is only found in and when I when I when I start recording I found that listening to podcast became much more enjoyable and it really wasn't for me it wasn't like oh you know I now have to do more podcast staff from either listening to podcast challenge was when I was listening it was Catholic reminder he added that episode you are should you acknowledge monitoring as you know hi I unfortunately had for a long time had a very very short commute arm like feet to my ominous because as reckoning for a while are and so 88 even last the time that I was spending podcast idealism where it was like AIG I have to be in a car I have to be driving cell arm so that impacted it to and yet it is amazing how the media quickly leave the magic back once you set it aside arm it makes me initially what you want with bodywork by guests and over that but then in October listen to as many so that it be sad easy sciatica is funny is that but I think that that's so that's a good point of the 1st to sort of wrap this up because are the problem is on this topic is it's very difficult to draw a specific conclusion even a subset of conclusion and you you mention this when we started it's more of a food for thought thing and that is that if this something that you really enjoy are then doing it and becoming an active contributor in whatever the we we focus on podcast because you and I've done that you are the parallels with them with flying though I have a very very very interesting and honestly very much aligned with the topic but that the truth is that you found something and if you find something that you enjoy listening to your enjoy participating in and then you enjoy creating yourself or doing yourself as a much larger component of your time then it this necessarily means that you do less of that is a casual activity like arm like a saying like listening to podcast I and am now creating so listen to them less and when I stop creating forecast for a while I take a break at the end of the show I expect so listenable podcast again and that's okay Saviour flying and I think that that something to do is to be aware of I don't think it's a good or bad thing exist that's just be aware of it right it happened it is you now to borrow a phrase from our main very talented friend arm who are who who who can't keep up with as an animal in a steel frame he he would talk about seasons of session where everybody goes through these cycles of being you are passionate about making our and then you know so as you get this great spring and summer of creation followed by media following a we need to step back and observe and then that senior just like the seasons it comes back and sell it eight media biggest challenge is just not like the seasons and just generate their role with that role the seasons are like that cool arm fantastic so are if you would like to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter actor John Geagea and Dale my site to distortion.com whether podcast is hosted along with my writing and other stuff that I've done are if you like this any feedback please use the feedback form on the website that's where you also find show notes this episode and the pod casts a pragmatic you follow pragmatic show on Twitter physician announcements and other related stuff out of sight thank my yard guest host are Eric has arm for coming on the show what's the best way to building and probably on Twitter I made my fantastic I'd also like to thank you for sponsors for this episode are firstly extrasensory devices and their likely for all after sponsoring a show the likely floors are compact and lightweight instant like me to attachment your smart phone or tablet ears devices.com/pragmatic more information about the handy Lexi for all and use the coupon code tech distortion 50% off exclusively for pragmatic listeners taking better pictures starts with your Lexi and also like to thank, for sponsoring this episode, is a domain registrar that is simple and easy-to-use of the valet service via existing domain transfers making it simply the best way to buy full control of your domain names check out holler@harbour.com/pragmatic to find out just how easy it is and use the coupon code absolutely get 10% off your first purchase let holler valet your domain stress away today and are so as always thanks was in everyone and thanks again Eric�