Pragmatic 61: You Never Really Owned It

14 March, 2015


Seth Clifford returns to discuss DRM and the value of entertainment content. We also explore if DRM will someday end.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic pragmatic as a weekly discussion choke on the plane the practical application technology exploring the real-world trade-offs we look at how great ideas are transformed into products and services can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems this episode is sponsored by many tricks makers of helpful apps for the Mac visit many tricks or one more information about their apps but like email each desktop curtain time sink a Shamu name angler and which if you visit the URL you can use coupon code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word into five numbers in the shopping cart is a 25% on any many tricks product is episode is also sponsored by Casper new sponsor may sell mattresses but they do it online yes they figured out how and yes they are great mattresses can save you lots of money visit for more information and use the coupon code pragmatic for a special discount exclusively pragmatic business and effort sponsor this episode is hotter, as a domain registrar that stands apart from the rest it simple easy to use and understand with a valet service for your domain transfer mapmaking it simply the best way to bind manager domain names check out to find out just how easy it is to grab your own domain and transfer your existing domain, using the coupon code exactly to get 10% off your first purchase let hover valet your domain stress away today will talk about them more during the show on your host John CGI joined today by my guest host Seth Clifford Hayden set doing well thanks family back nothing to come back on only a few more episodes to go and gradually make it on before rubber for a rapid up so today arm I'm going to put a pre-apology out our 2 to the listeners arm I've had a really long week I've been now do a lot of driving are all about 350 miles of our pipeline are inspecting different stations in Seoul on the way arm so I am I'm a little bit fatigued the coffee is propping me up and down and am not not want to speak for you make that time you you sound that you said before you may be a bit tired as well so apologies if I have time for that so okay but we want to talk about's arm DRM a digital rights management and I guess I have talked about a little bit before on the fringe so I briefly touched about touchstone of recently and it's a 55 when we talked about privacy actually are episode 42 arm which was hopefully that I burn it regarding e-readers are suitable even more briefly touched on going back even further I've discussed some of the elements previously on episode six season two of anodised with Clinton Phillips so those links have been ashamed if you're interested but I guess I specifically want to tackle this from a different angle not just DRM but also how we value entertainment and utility and and I guess the drivers behind why DRM exists so okay arm right so arm the problem DRM the definition of it's kind of a little bit fuzzy i.e. our originally I thought I yeah I know DRM is and the funny thing is that it sort of V8 is not as straightforward as you might think how how would you define our DRM Seth in NLN income in terms to me DRM is any any nanotechnology that applied to some form of media that likes it to some kind of platform in answers that's probably as simple as I can make it unique and only watch these movies on these devices in this system can only read these books on these e-readers et cetera note sense that that's pretty good definition arm just to rip something off Wikipedia me I never do that long I do it now it says a class of technologies used by hardware manufacturers publishes copyright holders in individuals with the intent to control the use of digital content and devices post sale goes on to add first-generation DRM software was our intent to control copying second-generation DRM was the intent to control executing viewing copying printing and/or altering were arm of works or devices the problem I guess I've got with all of that is that the name DRM is sometimes not always use so sometimes people walk court copy protection or copy prevention or copy control built near something like that it's kind it's a little bit related to arm software licensing in some regards depending upon the kind of software you talking about and I guess the problem is it's a different balance between utility and entertainment because you can write software for utility hour and you can write software for entertainment purposes so are I guess software licensing is in thought of necessarily as DRM but at the same time it has sent several things in common but I guess that that the other thing got explore a bit later I was I would hardly call Excel entertainment although welcome if some people but arm yeah I wouldn't car whereas Angry Birds is definitely in a software that states that entertaining and arm you string up another example that so that software that is for the purposes of entertainment in a sense so from the music so you it's all I think that they're in there are some common aspects it's worth that were talking about so in 1998 arm everyone goes on about the MCA the Digital millennium Copyright act that was surpassed in the United States to impose criminal penalties and gas on those who ever made a technologies available whose intention or primary functionality was to circumvent any copy protection bar for content or any of technologies or copy protection are you think that things like company the encoding on the DVDs blue raisin & so forth are and are a cloning and distribution in song as there is a lot of our there's a lot of references to the MCA when it was passed but it is it is in the United States I do not believe that arm that the exact same law and Nats are in that respect exists in other parts of the world exactly that way so any case arm so with respect to media content and is protection we've got content is viewable on a single device or class I guess you would call it location I guess because arm you if I've got her a Blu-ray in a single device in it plays in a Blu-ray that you can connected to any multitude of different televisions or even a projector in your own home so sort of I guess that's the problem with the Akers arises I cater on iPad or on iPad and iPhone or an android tablet or whatever else it's like when I say device or class that's what I'm talking about so I class of device and is better way of thinking about them being specific to a device but in some cases it is a single device so you can only rely only licensed to lots this on an iPad that set and Amin example that like that I've come across is the young visitor at best at the strike or Foxtel guy which I arm which for the arm the local cable content and you can only watch it on iPhone and iPad I believe it's locked those devices if I wanted to watch it on a iMac I have to run inside Internet Explorer there is no actual option to watch it on a Mac natively so the fibre VM because Internet explorer doesn't run on a Mac even with arm even with that crossover thing exposed to work doesn't work by the way or wine bottle also just not good enough but he won't mind that so do you have any any equivalent examples like those arm in North America arm those icons are DRM in North America you know it's that I think things the things that consumers come into contact with most frequently are probably around movies and music in an attempt media software videogame stuff like that and certainly arm minimal platforms that's that's probably the biggest expansion of DRM that we've seen in the past few years it in our touches just about everybody I don't I don't have anything like and have a Blu-ray player and I don't want anything to do with physical media anymore as I've moved away from that I've disallowed by movies from iTunes economic really be clean there there is enough you look online and she'll find ways to get around DRM and I'm sure that's probably something we can touch our media I think it from most people here in this country it really sent to resign media certainly there are other now there are other examples of adding in enterprise software and documents and things like that that anger is pretty much how we think about what we think it okay cool well arm traditionally I think people struggle a lot with content are protection on media because some contents has evolved are in such a fashion that it was difficult to copy duplicate replicate whatever and others it's traditionally been heavily shared and examples of what I mean is Frizzell take a book are our customers on the rear episode I have so 42 is that you and you can read a book and then you can pass on to your significant other argued children while depending on when I was 50 shades of grey or in a next door neighbour old bike down the street whatever you like you who have you like it's it's it's Cheryl there's no way you can stop and and the antenna that book to your wrist at least on some kind painful way I guess but you it's traditionally is of highly shareable form of content same at magazines I suppose newspapers as well whether or not people did that regularly or not is the I think that there's been a move away from that to the people I tend to be more of smaller disposable culture so will buy a book read a book and then will my throat away or keep in a bookshop and read again bit but sharing sees be less of a thing and certainly second in box as well as a thing but some but boxes one Avenue whereas the other avenue movies for example movies are traditionally not been our easy decline or copy are having to go to a movie theatre to watch them and aren't yet that that is in and of itself a form of far how it is not of DRM exactly but Stephanie a form of restricted viewing because you can only watch it if you've got a projector and screen big enough and sound system and everything that's all locked by location as we revolve with develops arm VHS or Betamax written your record as we could record television that that's it has never been away to actually clone a movie unless it was on television first so I think that a lot of people that grew up with the ability to record movies and television will look at look at the DRM it's now come in R4 blue raisin DVDs and start to question well okay I spell recall this I can recall this of TV now arm why would I pay money arm you to get a copy of this I can get free of the TV as a convenience and is a quality aspect but now I'm being restricted from making a copy for my purposes wise that the case so two different paths to different sets of expectations I think you're definitely NOT a point about sharing staff and there is something inherently human in experiencing some kind of media entertainment et cetera just his boxers an example and wanting to know if you enjoy the experience wanting to share it with somebody else tell them about it in our and that that the the idea of learning about the somebody is I think really Coro to the way that we can share experiences with people where we've had some pain of transformative site or something in regards that media and we wine this other person to have the same fighter of their own fight so we can talk about it and DRM has for the most part kind of staple that there is a you can tell somebody he hears in we rented this fantastic movie we buy this fantastic movie night ins and the it's really really greeted me with lessons everything washed three times over the weekend and here's the name of it and you can do anything past that aside from invading your friend over for a viewing by arm there are in I know that Emma Zahn has worked out a way regulate lend tinderbox to people through a period of time in our unit you can give somebody certain candle box that have been a guest flagged for sharing for I guess it's a two week period of something that there are there are steps that some companies have taken the kind of bring that experience back but even still it's it's limiting there is the time limit on it and if you don't read the book into exits kind needed anymore which young and is not how reality works you can learn somebody but through 10 years and get back eventually in ice it's it's Trina Howell is assuming you get back eventually Ray it's strange how we've were trying to late re-approximate those there was any human desire is to to share experiences but there are still these asterisks impose on you exactly yet is it is an interesting arm interesting point out that there are book clubs you know everyone will read the same book and sometimes in book clubs are someone can read a book and then pass on to the next person signing the age you don't have to do all go and buy a copy of the book in order to be part of a book club and that's that sort of level is a barrier of entry I think our to those of the group discussions that sort of it's made more difficult like I absolutely agree and it's one of those things that you know it as we become more individual and it's it's it's almost like the technology and the pro-business perspective they're not they don't see the value they see more value in an individual or a group of a whole bunch of people individually by purchaser book and then have their own individual experience with that booklet say they're not interested in arm were going to let you line the sounds whoever you like for the interest of spreading the word about this book because we don't see value in all we see is value in each of you individually handing over your money and that's it and previously there was no way to stoop to really do that because once you sold the book then it's out of your control no longer can the publishers actually enforce anything it becomes after the individual how they will handle that whereas with DRM the mechanism exists it is actually possible and to do some degree of enforcement of what happens with that without content you still can't stop someone from landing the Kindle are to someone else I suppose that sound there was a level of trust in doing that because if you do do that then now that person has access to everything on your Kindle not that book and as I sort of suggested in numb in episode 42 made, time when it's so cheap that people will just hand around the bed Kindle is because it's because they become a commodity item in a sense you are getting my Kindle. My locks and base pairs you exactly why not write it's instant than the future extension of the away book lending is to work in the past so I can see that happening at some point only they only people far too arm clingy separate work with the technology arm you know it's mine that my Kindle and line okay so arm with respect to our movies and so on are I don't actually have a DVD collection either I also don't have a Blu-ray player and I've gone to all digital on everything and I'm trying to think of a number of movies I bought an iTunes I think I've bought one and I pick up a couple on the way as part of Christmas are promotions and silo getting home alone, and the Christmas promoting of the iTunes 12 acts of Christians or whatever it's called I think that's called you so you know that's that's it and the reason is that most the movies I watch I already had on DVD previously not as rip them and break them and put them in iTunes noticed I watch a lot of movies so I do kind of art where we are just getting Netflix in Australia but unfortunately I mean we could have got fire VPNs or United States IP address and we could have gone they accept the strain credit card is not a good start but you know that my bandwidth here is terrible sub permits download only streaming is not really an option arm as the quality of out of the sky conversation and be common before was a is and attest to my bandwidth issues but some the truth is that's United's frustrating being I did that the truth is that some that streaming libraries and an iTunes have their place but if you choose to leave you can't only contend with you and is an hour and a immunoplates as you can't so if you got DRM applied to your iTunes purchases you can't actually play them are elsewhere and can you can you take an iTunes purchase movie arm out of iTunes and plates are in indifferent software on blog I defining your examination sure I've tried that I would see there's probably a way to do everything the question is how much of a pain in the neck as it shall while I know that IT iTunes used to have DRM on them on their music and then they famously are took it all off and offered up higher bit rate quality version someone iTunes match came out sort of a Yum Culligan music amnesty is critical that year it was a big deal I remember and arm in a that something that the music industry push back against for a very long time but I think it was a really great move because it that kind of stuff any music music is one of those things that you just cannot without trying to sound like a happy it's just like around you like your music is just with yearly knowing and any roadblocks that you drop into police to prevent people from having a reasonably streamlined experience with their own musical action is crazy so that it was a big deal in the actually real to do you absolutely and am also I think Amazons are music as well as also DRM free I think at has Amazon been DRM free from the beginning I'm trying to remember because they lost their music service after well after iTunes I Wanna say that it was think that was kind of one of their temples when the deadline is that service I could be wrong but I feel it was you I seem to recall that it wasn't it was as you say that was one of the temples I'm pretty sure it was arm and the big features so arm absolutely right and are honestly are I think that that was one of the things that inevitably you iTunes I don't think I either party wants to think that's Apple pushed for that because they thought it was the right thing to do but a part of me thinks that there is enough market pressure are beyond our beyond iTunes such that they I know that they were losing certain people across to Amazon for the reason it was DRM free and I do wonder how much of it was was driven by the arm by market market pressures from outside there from outside I think that was you I think the timing of it may have been more hard to deal with the market pressure by feeling that something that I had heard about for a long time prior to that I feeling that was something Steve jobs campaign for for a very long time are an end whenever they finally got it done may have been due to the fact that it needed to be done down as opposed to they wanted it to be done then or sooner but I feeling that was it that was the thing that they can a champion along the way you know it's fair enough you must write it I do recall in mentioning in the past but then perhaps that was one of the final straw for them either way good result green result and dumb at this point in time and I would like to discreetly talk about our first sponsor and as many tricks now many tricks is a great software developing company whose apps do while you guessed it many tricks their apps include Butler chemo Leach desktop curtain time seeing Usher Moon name angler and which so happy for talk about and start with which you you should think about which is a supercharger for your command tab app 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discount off their very helpful apps exclusively for pragmatic listeners just use the coupon code pragmatic 25 that's pragmatic the word and to fight the numbers in a discount code box in a shopping cart and you receive 25% off now this offer is only available to pragmatic was is for a limited time take advantage of it while you can thank you once again to many tricks for their continuing support of pragmatic okay what the other things that I want to talk about our before we get onto the software angle of this arm I think it comes down to I'm not I guess I don't really mind going to much depth about the technical mechanisms and the reason is that you know I guess I don't find that as in as interesting as you might think because the actual practical method by which you we enforce DRM to me is far more interesting to think about why businesses feel the need to do it and and whether or not it's actually impacting their business by not having it so I guess to start to look at it that way I think me to start looking at it from the southern consumer angle and will consider business angle so I think that from the conditions you caught so from the consumer angle arm but I don't like to label people groups so: Generic titles type a type B type C arm in no order of precedence preference priority or anything so are yes no judgement anyway i.e. arm type a person says your type A personality either just in case that's what people thinking soap and Dornier quotes here so picture air quoting Johnny equating you arm I should be allowed to copy whatever I want whenever I wanted however I want to as the type a consumer angle I think it's fair to say type B since they would save and I would lie would like to pay a fair price to use or watch what I want and Michael for where I want how arm now type C these are very special people I will pay any price maybe even multiple times to use or watch whatever I want whenever I want and some now the reason that I want to sort of broaden breakdown the three categories is to highlight something that I think is interesting I think the type C group is incredibly small but when I say small I mean in terms of volume of volume of transactions so if you consider that any one person could exhibit any of those behaviours at any time based on the kind of content we're talking about you may say so you're a big fan of the Beatles and maybe just bought are all the Beatles albums on vinyl for some at God unknown reason because you like lower quality audio and they look cool apparently arm anyway this is when you tell me love vinyl business at this is unit nine then I have a spider in my heart for a vinyl and I have quoted are that that I've collected over the years but I much prefer the ease of digital music I get us the spirit so click Casey's cases can be apps that are her how is Casey arm now work with Pastor Jack now okay anyhow arm be quite quite possibly are yeah vinyl vinyl was just finalise vinyl anyway so I guess my point is that when when the Beatles then released their albums were released in iTunes I got bile them now because they're now an iTunes format are all you have many kilobits per second in the been remastered digitally again more digitally than the last digitally time they were digitally digitally done whatever the point is that on a biomechanics I love them so much and not saying all of the bills that much but I'm saying that someone may feel that and if that's the case then you would find that type C so I'm happy to pay whatever price arm and I'll even pay the same content multiple times in different formats perhaps yet because I really really love that content but let's be honest most people do not feel that way about the vast majority of music they listen to all movies that they watch because it what you can't just love everything well maybe you could want to be like to be strange but anyway people don't live everything like that we we have things that we really really do like an asset so I think from a transactional point of view that quality of transactions is very very small I think that's reasonable talk so the next argument I think is the arm is there the other end of the spectrum and that is that the hip place that you said it would have dishonesty that from the hippie argument arm free love baby so I should be allowed a copy whatever I want whenever I want however I want to and you can't charge because estimated the man that is supposed to mean so you and obviously this can be an element of that no matter where I think everyone exhibits an element that sometimes for some level of content you whether it's recording songs off the radio I guess the people still do that I guess they might I add I did when I was a kid I had had no money when I was a kid so you know get out my cassette night hey knowing that everybody that I did that I was just laughing just thinking about somebody doing it now yeah I know I want everyone still does that say about work because we think about though I guess we do listen to podcasts and now I'm using our audio are hijacked for recording this this podcast and you can set up the time recordings is no reason why can't record audio from any application you want your Mac and you could stream radio stations listen to your smooth jazz mixes or whatever you like to listen to and there is no reason why you couldn't do that our end in metres recitations of free will, quite free still paying for them with yummy so I guess you could do the modern equivalent but yeah I is regular cassette tape deck out and do and recording the radio, favourite songs into a mix doing a mix tape air are how all the way I think probably the modern equivalent is Cairns watching music videos and doing stuff on YouTube and then using it there seems to be a proliferation of YouTube download apps in the App Store as I wonder if that's if that's why laypeople are doing that but just with their phone or something I think you're onto something there because the members are my oldest two kids do exactly what you described and that creates our little playlists and Alonso they got the point of sharing their playlists but certainly that would make sense at some stage so it's an interesting point so you because you to have causes again is free is free is free and our music videos are harder now I have this thing with music videos I kinda like but I'm more about the music and the basis I don't care anyway, rather people love music videos and that's great Jesus and lamenting music videos why do they spend so much amusing video set I can't see them generally listening to the music like this it's all about the base that any all right I'm not sure you had a point there arm music videos are musically okay so I've gotta get type B and I think type B is to be honest actually a reasonably decent slice of the population and I think that cognitively we understand are that everything comes at a price it's just how much are we prepared to pay and that just revisit what type B was fired their concert that I would pay a fair price to use and to watch whatever I want so the problem isn't the concept the problem is how we each define what is fair and that's and that's where the disconnects happen the arguments begin on New Year's Day having a virtual bar brawl a nicer thing because now what I consider found what you consider fair yoke of a jet printer guaranteed to be very different, pizza toppings 90 people ever agree so I mean with them with a song our iTunes famously priced a song that's art was $0.99 originally from correctly up yet and some people said that that was too much some people said that was no there was actually really cheap because the rest the arm stunk anyway so it's gimme what one song that I like and that's changed the face of her albums are made of been made I think our to to a greater extent than last decade but the truth is that guy agreeing on what is a fair price is the sticking point for a lot of stuff so we assume that we can we can ignore the type C transactions because they are relatively rare and if we consider that they are the people that are that the hippies and the audience are also statistically speaking relatively rare I think most people fit into the type B which is I'm happy to pay a fair price but the arguments are always over what constitutes a fair price and not not everyone will be ever no one will ever be happy with whatever price is set because someone is guaranteed to say it's too much matter what our prices in one sent it's like good morale down to 0 someone would say that you stew so that the consumer now the rather obvious is obvious I guess it is will find out business angle so let's just said state the obvious which is entertainment or or in case of software as time-saving software or entertainment software these things that if they take time and time and people power therefore they take money to create time is money that ego underscores people like to work for free but generally young they don't so money is required upfront to invest in a project as matter what it is you need to invest time in order to create music you have to compose it you have to record it has to be distributed some of those things are gone easier but irrespective you need something upfront and that sort of upfront investment you means that in order to break even mean that you get back you have whatever you put in plus any expenses you know if there is no breakeven amount as a result of whatever it is you created then you cannot have a sustainable business so if you're doing something purely are altruistically you have no interest in making any money you have alternative revenue streams to sustain your existence or you your existence are sustained on the arm though the graciousness of others in a whatever then that's different I'm talking about people that actually why do I create content as as a business so and you people think about musicians and independent musicians in psychotherapy business now that they're out there that I had better make music arm just just for you to smile so that's a really good song that they're interested in making money from so you it is a business and the other you can get a recording company get a contract with them and a lot of the rubbish and you that's it still is a business so that's really what I'm talking about a breaking even matters are in making profit matters even more because men otherwise most people wouldn't polarise a highly broke even so ever SO the concept of a business angle if you simplify it greatly every stolen or copied widgets whatever I create music song movie software every every installer copy is lost revenue simplistically speaking now obviously that excludes the whole word-of-mouth promotion idea and the idea you may free samples is as old as time wherever you're selling well in that old but certainly as old as people been selling things to giving away free samples CA stimulates the whole idea of word-of-mouth site this thing is free I tried ours really good you should give it a shot they go along and as our site we go free samples but is only one dollar IK call altogether for a dollar bilateral arm manures and out of things of Roma I think was out here is a now and that's it the original and the best with the Ed hours at 209 totally reliable robots and skip moving anyway our happiness in the new of what the the the most recent one every day actually have and it's been in my queue for a while I'll get around to it at some point but the original is low miles and ferrets near is is an awesome mover was that many times you and you know I'm on the same I've got on my to watch list but I haven't watched it maybe was a DRM anyway okay so one so free samples and data in so-and-so the simplistic way as well if I find a method by which I can lockdown and ensure that every single copy is paid for then I should in theory generate more revenue in theory so the debate I think circles around the choice by the content owner or creator choosing to give it away for free on their terms versus whether or not the end customer chooses to do it on on the customers terms when they would choose to do it so let's assume that you've only got a small percentage of the population that it knows enough to circumvent DRM or to obtain copies that do not have DRM on it of the content in question we have to assume it's the vast minority of people services like Napster for example made it easy for a lot of people you download software search the song download you got no but doing tyrants and staff and and you for a while there was lime wire and Aladdin is different then the different mechanisms you did not further people that are not for the faint of heart I guess I over one but I saying are finding is not easy for the average person to use so a lot of that is is are you getting DRM arm you not having DRM circumvented through the obscurity of how to get around it so ultimately though I think that from from a business point of view it's more about they want control of giving away free samples and saying you know what we have promotion you free samples for this long and that's it whereas you know if you handed over to the general populace then you have no control so a lot of it just comes back to that control over the flow of sales but anyway okay are in a course comes down the debate around what price is fair and and this is one of the ones that honestly I don't know what to think because you look at all the overheads that recording studios and running a record label has and is the promotional aspect is organ people organise the tours there's all these different people with their hands out middlemen meal people may have multiple levels of middle people in order to just get the band up on stage to perform a song and a venue near for example or setting up a recording studio and then they've got people to do the mixing and editing in the immediate is simply so much to do and all of that cost and it's hard for the general populace to safer a free for me to say arm even yellow bit of knowledge being dangerous knowing the little bit that I do about how our audio is put together after an album in note that there is that how can I judge if $20 for an album is actually a rip-off or not I I have no way to gauge that I think is as is a regular consumer with no knowledge of the industry and the production of that stuff it is hard to understand that the breadth of work required to produce a recorded album of songs and you now I'm sure if you really examine our process you could find a way to tremolite fat from it as in other rises independent musicians selling their own stuff online can can attest heel by it's also in the praise that the market will bear rate it's not so much is it fair amount that shows a certain point at which people say I'm not gonna spend 15 hours unless our Mustang $10 on this album and the industry has to be prepared to make their money that they want up somewhere else if if $10 is what people are willing to pay for an album songs and they want 15 Dragon have to find that five hours somewhere else yeah you're right you're absolutely right but I guess my frustration is the price that the market will bear I arm it is true is absolutely true but she's I hate that because it's what the price the market can bear is is about how much spare money is available in the market and how desirable something is and those are two very intangible are very two very intangible things it may well have been the case are 10 years ago that $30 for CD was acceptable but now when you can get if you get 12 songs on album and they're available for $0.99 each is in my dad was easy know so suddenly that that the cost of creating the music I guarantee you has gone up not down for the most part especially for a professional studio recorded album because the Ope salaries have gone up Brent goes up the electricity is gone up there and goes up which means it's going be more expensive in terms of raw dollars to make it and yet the prices have gone down and you open obviously therefore them the price the market can bear has dropped does that mean that is no longer worth it or does it mean that that's one of the reasons why record companies are not doing so well is because they can't are the wrecker that that the market cannot support our what was previously a much higher margin business and you now canal and the market can no longer bear those prices and I think I think it's all those things really think anybody has worked in the music industry can point to a million ways in which that that the path that you take to create an album is filled with bloated access there is in a million different ways were money gets handed after people who barely have a role in in bringing that album to life and that's just how the business works there is just like you said earlier as a million people with with their hands on the part so if you now if the music industry is not doing well because there are entire business model is predicated on paying a lot of people who have very little to do with the actual production of the media that's that's the music industry's problem to solve that's not the consumer's problem to sale than if the consumer decides I'm not getting value for the 10 hours of the $15 that I'm spending there can take that money and buy something else with it and again that's night and in that it that in no uncertain terms that is the music industry's problems are but you know if they're gonna stick to a business model and had a method of production that is by most accounts antiquated and expect consistently positive results in a completely completely different and ever-changing market in a that's absent you can point to consumers and go you guys did this in our you did this to us yet you have to adapt like adaptation is critical to anything that grows in a violence whether biological or otherwise and in out there is even a lighter ink spilled over this already sale staffed by it's one of those things were when I start thinking about it just seems seems so silly that they get so indignant about it Leo consumer is that you know you're killing us with YouTube is killing us because he would rather it would rather watch this in offer free once or twice and then by saying well that's that's fine and that's where girls think of another way to make money at our any business work your business starts working anything another winning money you are exactly right and I am a come back just quickly circling back to the music videos and how much money goes into making amusing BS are you gotta have a music video really were prior to our about I think the late 70s or early 80s and that most music didn't come with a music video in no so I know thank countdown thanks gotta move MTV however the pot popularising and then making that an access that you then require the vast majority of music is listened to is listened to with out a video clip and let's be honest most video clips are no music videos are confusing and have very little to do with song and get off in Alaska anyway okay call lovely before going his arm any further want to about our our second sponsor this episode and there are new sponsor for the show and that's Casper now Casper there an online retailer of premium mattresses for a fraction of the price you pay in a traditional bricks and mortar retail matters industry is inherently forced consumers into paying notoriously high markups but Casper is revolutionising the mattress industry by cutting the cost of dealing with resellers and showrooms and passing the savings directly on to you the consumer so let's talk about some of the big reasons to consider Casper for next mattress first of all this quality Casper mattress is resilient and provides long lasting support and comfort now Casper's mattress is one-of-a-kind it's a hybrid that combines both premium latex foam and memory foam in the same mattress and all can I Casper mattresses are manufactured in America these two technologies they come together for a better night's sleep and you end up having brighter days following so the cost mention that already but mattresses can often cost well over 1 1/2 grand bites Casper mattresses cost between $500 for a twin size mattress 600 for a twin Excel 750 for a full size 850 the Queen size and 950 for a king size mattress and it seems like it's impossible and categorising your feedback from consumers wondering how that's possible but it is so the cost and quality in short they are obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price but there's more there is the convenience angle to consider buying a Casper mattress is completely risk-free because Casper offers free delivery and returns within 100 day. That's 100 days next that simple what the problems were showroom environment is that lying in a bed for just a few minutes sale through four minutes the owner showroom doesn't actually bear much correlation to whether that's going to be the right mattress for you and me could take days or weeks or months to figure that out and that's why Casper has turned that buying process into a risk-free experience by offering so many days that you can trial for now canal should say how many nights actually Casper understand the importance of of the truly trying out that mattress that in all reality you will spend 1/3 of your life lying on now to find out more about them head over to to learn is a lot more about the matches and enter the coupon code pragmatic for $50 off of your order Casper transforming mattress purchasing try one and find out why they are so good thank you to Casper for sponsoring pragmatic the next stop on this are the the DRM and the value of things out of couldn't of media train yes is sour a couple of ideas regarding the market value which is I guess so comes back to where I want to start with the word abundance and what I mean by that is I guess it's it's it's a matter of accessibility it seems to me that there was a time you go back to when television first came out you had no option prior to that that if you wanted to see a movie had to go to the theatre and before there were movies you want to go out to see some kind of audiovisual entertainment for the want of a better way of saying you have to go to 1/4" arm theatre where you would watch our play la Broadway and so-and-so for an entertainment medium still exists is not huge it still exists so movie theatres come along and so on and Neo they still exist to though they're getting very expensive young still less expensive generally going to the theatre but some young they thought about their balancing out to a price that that that segment of the market will bear for people that want to go and have the big screen experiences that movie certainly they are better on a big screen experience just like certain movies are actually better acted as a play rather than as a movie so again it it becomes a little bit more are more of a specialised niche as it were but the mass-market follows are the costs and the abundance angle and what I mean by that is the TV started out being very rare very expensive cost comes down and then they become very abundant and screens are now everywhere think about screens on your phone the only computer monitor your laptop screen you it's all digital now so it makes while practically all which means that there is no limit technologically speaking to what you can display on whatever you might have in front of your face including a television set so it's that there is no more barrier to that info from for music anything they can show a picture generally has audio that goes with it young lass as well as silent movies I've heard about and someone is playing a piano you as you riding the train to work in the background seeking arm so the truth is that in these the woods all the abundance of devices that can play audio and you can watch a video on that means that there is a lot of contents but of the options to watch content and that drives the creation of more content for people to consume and that drives down inevitably the price so that the days of making lots of money off of movies off of music are the ad that those days are our rapidly diminishing because the problem is that it's so abundant that the average average prices being driven down so that the amount of profit you make will be less at mid always be blockbusters always bespeak albums that make it bigger be books they are like Harry Potter and enable & where the individuals to make lots and lots of money but the days when the average person could make a lot of money by making it you know as it's getting harder and harder to make those sorts of values unless you are truly are very very lucky or very very talented and maybe that's okay but you anyway don't value abundance dries price and down perceived value I think perceived value is important as well but the converse is true I think as well so angry was that okay call fair enough it was easy the arm but there's another angle to consider what about passion desire and the owner use the word last because honestly from a music arm a technological point of view there is no question I know a lot of people in the audience listening to this listing this episode are have a certain passion desire and lust for technology so you were drawn to our the newest and the newest gadget let's say and sometimes you it's the same thing with that with content so wed automatically drawn let's say some people are fans of of a certain artist like you to be like you to all run Adonai how is big on YouTube arm and others who are overdone likely to K about the arm of the Beatles were still together makes a bad example current musicians arm Coldplay are Robbie Williams idea anyway my point yes people are making musical time fans of that stuff away listen to that stuff that are now people are for had a passion for listening to their new content and that drives the perceived value our partner up higher so the more passion or desire and lust you have despite the fact that whatever you're peddling whatever it is what entertainment is is of approximately the same average value because of the abundance of other people's content that passion desire and lust that drives up your perceived value can get away with charging more and that's okay because less people have to bless people buy but the people that do are willing to pay a lot more and if you want an example then we need to do is look at Apple and look what Apple sells another don't sell content exactly are Apple don't make TV arm TV movies TV shows and movies you or music they don't release not yet at least that we don't know about yet so hot and I arm rumours are rumours but who knows anyway was at me starting a rumour perhaps any I have no inside knowledge but anyhow so you know Apple Apple to the Apple channel anyway so arm CAI so I honestly think that Apple is sitting in is positioned and has positioned itself as being a desirable are some say fashionable I guess people are passionate about it despite the fact that no computers and an MP3 players are abundant and were abundant when they win when Apple room were around you their brand has reached a point where people's desire for it has pushed up its perceived value despite the fact that a Windows laptop can do most anything a Mac laptop can do whether Nye has more or less problems while that's open for discussion but the truth is I can still edit an Excel spreadsheet in either and it will still work so anyway maybe that's going too far off topic but well ingested is emphasise your point about Apple I think that the analogy that you are training create is that in that case Apple is creating an experience the weathers of their artistry creating an experience and while the hardware itself may retain more long-term value both to the user and in the market people are willing to pay more for these devices and an entrance into the Apple ecosystem because they want to have that experience the way that somebody will pay more for a movie or an album or something because they want to have that experience with that artist you're absolutely right and I think it's one of those things that are people are I think there's a lot of far I hear indignation you know about things they cost to march in the nose so I noticed a lot of ripping and joking in a know about the price of the gold Apple watchers for example and site will it's about the price the market will bear but the other truth is that there will always be people are prepared to pay that I don't have to sell a lot of them was getting up.I wonder about our watch but anyway so passion for a product a passion for media are will definitely drive up survey there is no question but the funny thing is that can use it in the place can you can use can you create content in an area there where there is abundance and still have people are passionate about that are happy to pay more and any answer is definitely yes but it's about finding that niche and it is difficult how Moses got to do with DRM while I guess the reason is that I want to think about where is DRM primarily pushed in consumer areas and an upon the put forward a suggestion that DRM is pushed most heavily are traditionally it has been pushed most heavily in consumer areas of abundance with low levels of passion desire or lust for the content so examples are cause DVDs Blu-rays movies arm and the vast majority of music is that all kinds of content that are out there I guess not but I has to hammers DRM is there in pod casts actually not a heck of a lot minutes subscription amount arm subscription are subsumed the RSS subscription feeds God to help me out southward to calling and I don't know how to go in for what what are we you how you can subscribe you can have a authenticated feeds there sorry that's what I was trying to get sorry okay so that's pretty rare I think in pod casts land and people I deny I just may visit the hippies hippies talk and saying we don't want that that's now let's get off our hippie lawn arm anyway so I deny I know what you think is I think that I think the DRM is pushed in the areas where there is there is abundance and therefore you try to extract the maximum amount of value out of the lot the all they get you get high volume but the market can't bear much of that are much the higher cost and therefore you what you want your new tender like that out there and we think Anna may be not sold myself on that idea I think there's something to that I think the DRM probably makes more sense in a market that has let's say Alana saturation points sell mainstream media are in our part culture in movies and music and things like that that's NOT a point I think that's where DRM makes the most sense for companies because even though it's an inconvenience to customers in some capacity are there is the volume of people willing to pay for it can't and is so much so much bigger and the companies are willing to guess Chronicle take ahead if if it even is for them that they will incur because there is more people to just make up in other people that want to buy it for that reason and I think with stuff like Parkhouse are independent music are independent movies where things are distributed are through different channels it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense to try to get in front of that because the potential for alienating the people that are buying I think is a lot higher and so it's I think it's just a game of numbers from them but then you look at stuff like you know what Lucy Kay is doing where he is either very well-known comedian and his releasing mainstream company can't and you now himself and its very cheap and there is no DRM and you can do everyone with it and he been extremely successful with it and wondering if there will ever come a point where the larger industry as a whole looks to examples like that and says maybe we should rethink this because people really seem to like this and maybe there is more money to be made doing it this way then doing it the other way I don't think that's can happen any time soon but I think as we start to see more examples of larger and more mainstream content providers and artists taking that road for themselves I think it indefinitely it can trigger in that conversation more readily absolutely I think you I want to come back than just a second that I'd just before we do I want talk about our rum our third and final sponsor for this episode and that's hover hover as a domain registrar that stands apart from the rest owning and controlling your own domain is critical if you're developing an app running a blog running a business 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bring so many people are with existing domains the hover is their ballet transfer service and its free point hover in the right direction with your existing domain and registrar information and they'll take care of everything you have to worry about messing it up you when you transferring your domains because hover do it all the time is don't go much more smoothly if they do it because they do it all the time and you only do it yourself once every few years maybe so that's a long list of reasons why I move my domains there years ago and that's why this still hover and that's why they can stay there so check out and find out just how easy it is to grab your own domain or to transfer your existing domains to hover using the coupon code exactly to get 10% off your first purchase let hover ballet your domain stress away today thank you once again to hover the sponsoring pragmatic so you brought up my closing point so we may as well get to that then I think and that is can we ever really truly get away from DRM I have concerns and I guess my concern is that wherever there is someone creating content for a business there's always going someone out there who is either arm night nave enough inexperienced enough arm they just want to try it on and say this simplistic viewpoint is that if I lock it down and force people to pay then every purchase I get is a guaranteed amount of income therefore that is the better answer whilst they ignore the fact that people are perfectly happy are they would prefer to get things for free with a minimum amount of advertising or would be like to pay for it once and then be able to freedom replicated copied as many times as they like because they theology degree of ownership is like it's like go I buy how I can use a hammer on lavish on whatever nail I choose not just the nail that you tell me I'm allowed to use on and what is on the second or third mallets extra you know so I dunno if I do I just get the sinking feeling on a saying that that you think it can happen someday I'm not convinced I think there will always be someone somewhere selling something that is going to be locked down by DRM IRC I think it's inevitable I think people are going to just say are like businesses assembling a look at it simplistically and it is can be one of those lessons that people never learn by up to any business I think the learn the reasons and the rationale for businesses using DRM now in the consumer space at least I different then the place where they started rate so we talked about this earlier it was more about copying and redistribution and sharing and things like that and now at least in our looking at the consumer space consumer electronics base and it's really more about platform Marken are not so much copying can't turn around and sharing it rate I think it's more about I have all these movies and all this music and it only really works with my iPhone and my Apple TV my iPad and my Mac and I have all this Amazon stuff and it works with my Kindle fire and my fire phone and in whatever whatever else whatever other devices are part of that platform I think it's more about creating this umbrella experience between devices and software that Queen honestly Apple has been doing for a really long time and I think other companies are looking at it going you know what that strategy makes a whole lot of sense and in how it used to be everybody gave Apple like crap about inner that the platform Marken but everybody's doing it now tonight just Apple that is the predominant business strategy for consumer electronics is death and then have them by all the saddling devices use our client and an asset you like you're here now and you can even go and do something else if you why and certainly like in others ways to less into this katana review this can't and in other places but it again tonight easy to deal most normal people I can do it and most normal people aren't going to say you know what are I really am gonna switch my entire inner antenna platform from Apple to Google Nexus devices and global now TV whatever that in out the equipment equivalent products are mostly likely that so I think the notion of DRM now is not so much about distribution and carping it's more about once you hear you're here and these things only work with these things and just keep going in our direction yeah it's more about increasing friction arm to leave while less the concert of I guess of of platform locking is to to provide a path of less resistance to stay within the platform and a path of greater resistance hard to leave the platform to jump to either in part or in whole to a different platform and that that the relative free levels of friction are in in this case it in those cases RR are I guess it it pretty prevents and and and it's funny no I was thinking about is Apple strategy has been apparent after quite some time and people still a true attribute so many things that Apple does is being I Apple is doing this fall now the good of everybody or the good of the year know it is like assessing either I do wonder whether not that that that that store that thou that Trop whereby Apple is doing the best thing for everybody when people are starting to wake up and realise that you that it's like you say you are platform locking is a viable strategy and has worked well for them Steve jobs even it was even quoted are I think it was in the arm biography and the mice in that Walter Isaacson's biography is saying and that in them by way of the quote was in that way we can increase that that lock into our devices as I will it was insane either that that's businessman Steve jobs talking and now although I don't recall if he actually is ever said that publicly that you it's so DRM in that case if you put DRM on top of platform locking you essentially put DRM on top of a form of DRM and maybe that's what I had less issue letting it go it's it's interesting to note though that for the longest time all other companies that make hardware now were only making software and content for an Apple was a hardware company that need hardware and software rates of Lake in their strategies and parent for a while you have the hardware you view the can't and I bet Google was a search engine and now in out the acquired Motorola and I guess they let Motorola go rain I think Motorola is not particle and remain from Marina correctly, honestly I actually don't know either way Google in our was not a hardware company and now they have Nexus hardware and NOT meant hardware Emma's iron is a storefront that has their own hardware for their own can't cancel you now it's these are companies that arguably our in our better worse other when it comes to making these hardware expenses but they have realised that this is a good play that in our Apple was not stupid to do this they were night trying to do in out something so secretive it was always out in the open and this was how this work and I think a lot of other companies are coming around to lead you probably .2 million other examples nudges in a couple of rattle laugh where there are companies that have decided to make their own devices solely for the purpose of keeping people using the product that they were non-freezing near know it's a good point and are now that's our Google and Amazon have I don't want to say copy but certainly arm chosen certain aspects of Apple strategy and are doing as well that's yes some of the the need to have DRM's site is perhaps reduced but by and large I don't think the DRM will ever completely die I think it'll be one of those things, like the year the theatre and the movie theatre are I think it's is always going to be that elements and always be something that is locked down in some way perhaps DRM are on as it stands will only become something for those countries don't have a platform locking as a method of locking in without having a platform maybe that's what will happen but I EII I would love to believe in utopian future where there was no DRM but I just can't see it happening our insights unfortunate but irrespective you know are not sure what we can do to change that I guess ultimately the market will decide whether people are prepared to pay for something that comes back to the passion the last and the desire for the content that is being created and so long as there is some of that I think there will always be people are greedy and that what have our DRM applied for another platform so far it's hard to value entertainments arm but just quickly before we wrap on this on this topic I talked a little bit before about software and wailing it's been interesting to watch is that the move from our software lock in and then connecting up software's two software to web services and and having an ongoing subscription type of thing because only is generally agreed that platform lock in for rougher music like streaming audio services is very much a form of DRM whether or not you call it that specifically or not I think that there is very little question that it did that Pandora and is arm was the online spotlight you can argue they are forms of DRM now from the platform point of view stop paying subscription all that music is gone you don't have any more and you that's that's an issue I said Pandora but it mean Pandora to work slight I meant to modify anyway so what am I getting up on me and so software is now going down a similar path perhaps though not all the same reasons so Microsoft is going and pushing office 365 you have a monthly subscription or an annual subscription to get access software what you don't pay up then your licensing it goes into is not doesn't kill the product exactly but cripples in certain respects certain important respects that's our it's one of those things that guy again I think that that's a form of you can't copy it because it goes along with a login that is tied to a web service which then they can shut down maths it's a licensing model you could argue that licensing purpose or use of software is it is the same kind of thing is licensing for access to a platform in life like your Apple ID is no differences in your licensing access to the music that you purchase through the system maybe have a local copy that's great does it become crippled if your Apple ID expires one guess not but you still locked in the platform but some I saw is an interesting parallel year I aim I come around and the notion of software subscription services like that though because in our at the office between Adobe and Microsoft Office and some of the other stuff we use it it made more sense for us to get moved to that marred all the cars in Alf at just talking about the bottom line it was cheaper and easier for us to always have the latest versions and have support for those things and are on a month-to-month basis than buying a yearly relations and an painted B if we wanted to update it and then in our earmarking the money for that in doing that stuff site I think there is tremendous value in in some of those platform choices for it for certain types of customers but you now that that gets a whole other discussion about the notion of owning anything owning anything digital owning any kind of software any kind of music you email I'm sure if you type your lawyer that I will hit not really you never really only owned the lessons to use it in its is another whole rabbit hole we could go down you are exactly right and I a knife to some extent come round to numb on subscription software as well and dark as I been using office 365 now for Ra from beginning amounts every month now and down minutes been finding aids not an issue every nanny says I can't authenticate with the server to retry later in what year but some it always does eventually connect up and authenticate and everyone smiles and makes happy Excel spreadsheet documents were documents but anyway so yay it does work it does work you and I and I do think that subscription software is so is a better model from EA and from software development point of view is welcome to get a more consistent reliable our income but some home pros and cons but I think ultimately are that is also here to stay better and in any case so one and I've had too much also want to say that on the topic did you have any other thoughts you want to add before we wrap it up now and I think cell said we could go down a million other rabbit holes but are I think that's good for now cool I go well before you go arm before the show ends are and is ending in fewer episodes time there are only two more after this are I have one final final final final final final vote the business can participate in if they choose to go to are in order something commissioners you can follow and you can vote on your favourite episodes of the cast it's anonymous if you want to be an obvious telling results to finally say that as an incentive for those people that I registered and then pick out three random entries that have a valid email address and I'll announce them during the winters have as you as it were our during the final episode and I'll get a free sticker sent out so are if you like you if you like the chance to win a free sticker than one go-go soap you like to talk more about this you can reach me on Twitter and John GG and my site to is where this podcast is posted long for my other writing and other stuff if you like to send any feedback please use the feedback from the website as we also find show notes for this episode casts pragmatic you can also follow pragmatic show on Twitter and seashell announcements and other related things are I like to thank my guest host coming back on the show once again what's the best way to probably Twitter suffer from there and if you want to see the work when you are in visit nickel finish I can't proclaim work and he do we do come from front right arm I also like to thank our responses for this episode firstly many tricks are 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Seth Clifford

Seth Clifford

Seth is CIO of Nickelfish and he also appears on the Iterate podcast.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.