Pragmatic 77: Look Before You Touch

10 December, 2016


The new MacBook Pros come with a new feature Apple call the Touch Bar. We look at whether blending direct and indirect interactions make sense and try to figure out if the Touch Bar is actually a good idea.

Transcript available
Welcome to pragmatic practical application technology exploring real-world trade-offs with how great ideas are transformed into products and services can change our lives nothing is as simple as it seems pragmatic as part of the engineering water shows including this one it over to a patron page and other great shows an today on your host John GG and today I'm joined once again by cuts Heydon Vic good giant ratified off the goal but I'm here I appreciate the sacrifice it's a nice winter over there at the moment is the opposite me here but am sorry Armand I hope you're feeling of livability were a few days ago I actually am today is probably the best in week four days ago I wasn't sure I would make it to the end of the week hold dear good yes I am it's our here is the rough winter over there actually are it's been a weird winner it is cold they are without without the CIO mowed the yard last week and I don't usually already in December that is odd yeah okay so grass is growing its weird arm you hopefully this time was actually the last time unlike the previous time that I thought was gonna be the last yeah we wish we still have to mow the yard winter here once a month usually that's our yeah gets manic in summertime arm and sometimes like every two weeks maybe every week if it rains a lot just annoying ballistic lithographs undead thing I thought was we was living in Calgary is that the grasses goes Brown just stops this it looks like instead comments depressing there anyway and across Springdale comes and it's a beautiful green and everything is happy and then all the weeds come up and go sprayed weeds nursing and their mother usually stay green year-round but it is calloused after a winter and the winner SS Brown in the middle of the summer when we drought year that's that's that's a constant year same here but thankfully we haven't had a drought for awhile which is good anyway is as awesome as that is arm I actually have been wanting to talk about today's topic for quite some time are nearly 2 months in fact that I never really had the opportunity and in addition I want to make sure I had a chance to play with these things first and I'm talking about the new touch bar on the MacBook Pros surveyor announced governments back and they been available now floor while and I've been out to an upper stall and the tightness is the new hotness that's right Brenton app store as well as AER JB hi-fi Woodstock Apple stuff not playing with these arm quite a bit because I've been trying to get my head around whether or not these things are in fact arm a good idea or not it is in this and every interesting how young she had a play with far I have not our first let me clarify you did not throw your tablet out the window and go by 199 did not it will become clear why not shortly one year no actually able I have not had a chance to play with it I think it was critical that there is no doubt all that it looks cool of course looking call isn't enough to me why put down 2 to $3000 I know that's not the coolness is not you can't buy coolness Vic fan humming the Fonzie tours this I think making a cup of your fossils anything anyway there's a lot of people that still need to learn a lesson damn right now by cool you just can't it's either you've got it you know you don't and I actually have no idea of how cool is suburban call my life to the Public Safety assume that we don't know we don't okay so arm I guess about the way studies I'd want all about interaction like how we interact with that with computers and just a little bit from the very beginning our love covers before sort of previous episodes but it's important to cohabit ref beaver refresh I think for this to come come into focus a little bit here lease for me and I guess we had to deal with abstraction in open with computers initially because we didn't have any decent touchscreen technology so back in the beginning it was you had a keyboard because it was analogous to a typewriter keyboard back I made the transition into the virtual world you press a key you see something shop on the screen you know it's an abstraction it's not actually a printout piece of paper with that letter on its it's an abstraction you push the key and then you see something happen somewhere other than the keyboard if it was a direct interaction you like you go and turn a door knob you turn the doorknob you see the doorknob move you you push a button on the doorbell and the button goes in and you'll see it move but we push him a keyboard is the key move but you don't really see the result of that unless you look somewhere else and that's I guess that this building is a disconnect between what your fingers is actually things actually pushing and what that push results in and it is sort of you know we we can extended that right with the arm with the mouse and done I was some I was Eric's park and then it was some yellow the Macintosh was the first 1 to mass be mass produced that use the mouse and it certainly popularised at any idea is because you can push little icon around the screen you can select the those items usually a whole lot faster than using a cursor and arrow keys on the keyboard now that that's really slow and really cumbersome right so the mouse was a step in the right direction but it was still abstraction you know you're you're you're using a device that is not connected to what you're moving and that level of abstraction means that you're you're so disconnected from what you're doing its it's subtle but it's annoying week I did it because we had no option we have no alternatives so I was really excited now when is the late 80s I think it was arm when light pens came around as I thought of it so cool you can touch the screen which you you you never used any of those I sold them I was aware of them but I never actually used I was pretty young yeah I I played with one of the last light pens arm that I that I can recall it was actually used on a control system at the sternal power station and they had a light pens there was 96 1996 and it was already very very old at that point the technology was almost abandoned that point but the way it worked was that you had record that connected into the special adapter for the computer and it had a light-sensitive tip on and as you would and the yes I do have a hole in the end of the pen and a circle around the outside it was a slight spring lights would you do is it select Presto on the screen as you pushed down into closer contact and signal the interface card to send a flash onto the screen and what it did is it a rapid scan horizontally and vertically and as soon as the light pens saw like that light indicating back into the light pen it figured out the time delay X and Y and figure wearing on the screen the light pen was so young was quite a clever issue but the problem was because you're affected by the scan rate and the accuracy and there was also a bit sluggish so it was sort of cumbersome it was tethered never really took off so resistive touch sort of was the first real attempts to do it properly are but the problem resistive touch is that you know you can only touch Once upon a time so that was that was okay if you'd mind maintaining pressure drags on the ground screen and relies had to keep pressure on what you did it and the other was annoying the Conaway had had a few folds with that technology can start jaded, so I didn't either PalmPilot and at times I 71 and down yet aid they both had touchscreens and also Cassiopeia are Casio Cassiopeia near our PDA and the only folder that I recall that even had anything remotely call using that technology was the wife once had some sort of LG phone at all remember the model number but it had this goldfish that would come to your finger is about the coolest application I sold that technology that would reliably keep everything else about the interface sucked the virtual goldfish was nibbling at your finger, he would come to your finger and that worked reliably the rest of the game is like the world's first goldfish that actually you could command and saying I come here my mate will the dog communal fish spots that's crazy wise conical but I'll admit I haven't play widened in planets is fine by me we're totally agree though that it sucked right it was pretty shocking but it still laid the ground work I think for the next step which is were really took a leap and that was when capacitive touch really took off and that was just because you need a stylus it was just the simplest method was the most natural method of interacting with a computer because it was intuitive because you put your finger on the spot on the screen and it will respond to your touch you know and I mean I say doesn't need a stylus but the Apple pencils proven that year we had that a powered or active stylus can be invaluable and makes it even more useful resistive screen with with us with a good stylus so you II suppose the whole point of it was though is the arm it's a direct arm you directly interacting with what you see we have just like in the real world in the real world again come back to the door handle you put your hand the door handle you turn it and it turns with you just like on-screen things on the screen you turn around and and photos will rotate in its it's very natural it's just it feels like that's just the way it was meant to be no saying my arm I suppose the problem though with touch input is it comes back to data entry is it may will feel more natural but in terms of data entry you lose the ability to go do things rapidly so you can't enter information very quickly so you lose that speed in get and is the things that people say are well you know touches is more natural yes it is bites a mouse is a lot quicker because an and so the keyboard right so you can actually use a mouse to move that from one corner screen to the other in a fraction of the time it takes to lift and move your hand if there was a touch surface and assisted by virtue of the fact that the mouse or you doing is pushing and slight bit of friction and amplifies the wrist and hand movements so that you can traverse the entire screen with hardly any effort and assess something that even a touch is better and more natural you just can't you can't get past the fact that your you your meaty lump of a limb because it has mass year and momentum it takes time to accelerate its lower down touch and then accelerate slide down our way again you never gonna be inevitably to virtual mouse and indirect disconnected action is just yes Dr been at the speed keyboard same problem are or similar problem because your fingers are dangling over the keyboard and you can type a lot faster than that and even though I've managed to get pretty fast the touchscreen keyboard the tactile feedback of knowing where your fingers are gonna be you can't beat it you always looking down the keys just you can't get away from the touchscreen and it will slow you down not too much but enough that it's annoying right so is the whole problem you've got direct interaction and indirect interaction but more about the mouse I guess arm the downsize of a mouse are comes back to things like our I guess you could call it visual acquisition CC the mouse and screen right as you know static it's not moving and if you got a complex background or you got a lot right on your desktop or sitting on top of the white window or something like that you know sometimes you find some wobbling the mouse they can find the cursor you like that eventually makes a big that is actually a really cool feature but that said Microsoft figured that out like a decade and 1/2 earlier with mouse trials would likely finish our childish but the point is that you that that's to address that problem you know whereas if you put your finger on touchscreen is not an issue as instant acquisition right arm so yet that wiggling the thing on the trackpad in the loop I think when they introduce that was Al Things Al Was in our layer feels like are you sure I was thinking that it might ability feature nice nice ear infection has been around longer than that I think it was only avenues every year the theme now Amelia was I don't know if it was before our Will not buy in any case I just want your eyes on the cursor yea don't look away anymore but you but then again why she has on the mouse you can at least feel when the mouse is you can move around you so then another form another input device that has indirect action reaction with the mouse pointer is trackpad and I live I used to hate trackpad's that was before I'd use an Apple trackpad here you and assist your it's just chalk and cheese in areas so good those Apple trackpad so arm there, unlike a touchscreen because the whole area has no specific like location specific feedback so it doesn't matter where your finger is on that area arm if use if you take your finger put it down and put it and draw/for like 1 inch left right up or down within the confines the trackpad has the same impact on the mouse cursor so the mouse customers the same distance so you don't actually have to look where your finger is in a trackpad before you touch the trackpad as long as it is in the general area so you think is roughly in the Middle East area of the tat of the touch of the trackpad define inner cedar to go looking for the mouse songs you a rough idea whether trackpad is units of hobby are we hand above it and just move the mouse around wiggling away go and that's really great and I so just so then on the keyboards right this is all the stuff that is distant it is indirect right so this is all the advantages interacting and indirect monkey with a solid touch touched on briefly but it's more about I think the locator keys you know like the J and F keys that little but little debits is either a debit or to slight rise in mound on those keys helps you to find many not looking right so it never changes that always the same spot so you know where to find the keys without having to look and that's the key vascular right is it having to look as soon as you take your eyes off that screen and you down look somewhere else that kills speed and accruals efficiency Quaker so allow your muscle memory that bothered something exactly because I want to go touchscreen arm in a country that right because arm get a look down the touchscreen because you're directly interacting with what you're touching and that brings us to the touch bar itself so little bit about the touch bar first side is a new feature it's been added to the MacBook Pro line the high-end models only and I mean high-end I mean I'm really mean high-end because it carries a price premium it's suddenly at a minimum of 23% more than the nearest SPECT MacBook Pro and the ATP guys coined that the MacBook escape directly I laughed out loud when I think Marco called that because a because I thought I yet as it escaped the touch bar they sure that's not what he had in my marriage I know it's not a nice night but the stats by stop Optima has a yea is the one that escaped anyway so the actual arm touch bar itself so if you haven't seen one imagine the function row key on your MacBook Pro has been replaced by a very long narrow touchscreen so this thing is like 60 pixels wide but it's actually a to X resolution so in reality it's really a 30 pixels wide but it goes the entire width of that keyboard and recently else giant pointed pixels points and pixels I'm sorry 30 points 60 pixels very ago and the length year there in the length of Psalm 2170 pixels or 1085 points so is essentially a very long narrow strip of an iPad screen essentially so the concept is no longer do you have a row of narrow function keys that have a fixed function and reality is that you never fixed function anyway they had multiple functions so you don't either the function keys like F1 to F 12 or whatever if you had the full-length gut F 19 you and you can configure them to do whatever you liked we would have them just as function keys or about a virtual machine running Windows you have receptors function keys all had your purposes like forwards backwards play pause volume up down Newt's project if you actually had something that you could eject which I have in a long time but you never know in the next things like mission control and screen brightness and keyboard brightness but obviously the the other one key dashboard dashboard yet is handy and down and across escaped Ryan the top left corner so all those keys then gone and they've got a touch surface so that's the yard that's what it is but the thing that makes it interesting is that it's of course nowadays a screen it's fully configurable and because the touchscreen you can make the touchscreen not just display information but you can have it represent our touch controls of any kind doesn't have to be a button it could be a slider it could be a bunch different things but you the point is it there virtual buttons and psycho virtual toolbar and it looks really cool and is no questionable it looks it looks amazing's certainly in the imagery and in the photos and everything but yet I guess some the thing I have to say is that when I saw it in real life the first time in fact every time I saw it play with this thing I thought it looked a bit fuzzy yelling area I fit into yea doesn't look as sharp as it looks in the photos identify sister trigger my eyes but just doesn't look as sharp so not sure why that is it shall in any cars seen it all personally but I would think it should progress bit is read a resolution at their I know I'm not sure why maybe the backlight may be theirs are a treatment on the front may be some mat versus glossy thing I'm not sure but it just doesn't look quite as sharp I have heard some people in the reviews either a podcast) one accurate remember but I have heard some people say that it's not very glossy it is kind of man you maybe that's one thinking member has had a new know that in the payout say I have seen and eclairs Greenshields rifles and staff and axes is one myself back when I was using just the 3G in a serious retina screens came out I start using it because it to sleep really muddied up the road you do something to its I'm not sure if that's what it is maybe it is but in any case so that's the concept of the touch bar and I don't just talk about the touch marks and talking about touch so obviously quickly touch the most trackpad's touch that touched a lot of judging John I know I can stop it Nancy soft on okay so these track pants on the new MacBook Pros are huge in the air they are seriously huge compared to the old ones now I had a 15 inch MacBook Pro prior only as as recently as if through four months ago and I also had a MacBook Air 13 inch before that my wife still has hers and honestly these track pans are enormous so just to give an idea of size the magic trackpad to that's the actual standalone magic over the newer one which is bigger than than the original magic trackpad that is 160 mm or 6.3 inches wide by 115 mm high mass 4.5 inches high so the 13 inch MacBook Pro escape or make values MacBook Pro touch but have identical size track pans that they are yet they are identical so hundred 34 1/2 mm which is 5.3 inches wide and 84 mm or 3.3 inches highness 46% bigger than the previous MacBook Pros generations are touchpad by area in the 15 inch MacBook Pro touch bar the legal rate yes it's 160 mm or 6.3 inches wide which is exactly the same width as a magic trackpad to and it's 103 mm or 4.1 inches high which is just short of the magic trackpad to and by area it is 100% begun I was twice the size twice the area of the previous 15 inch MacBook Pro and as as as it affords essentially the same size as a matter track so you now get effectively a magic trackpad to in a laptop in the 15 inch MacBook Pro I think that that is a fantastic idea it's great you know and I look at it now look very nice it looks pretty sweet yes for seniors alternate malted the four previous weights and spreads on the benches and you exactly right and it's because you don't have to search for it unites I guess it's your thumbs either hand fingers doesn't matter you know where that thing is, but you don't even have to move your hand that far away from the centre centre line of the Mac in order to actually get the trackpad and do whatever gestures you want or move the mouse or find a mouse and it's great and honestly arm because I figured out palm rejection I think pretty reliably on iPads I've ever read a few reviews about it and my experiences I try to trip up I rested my hands on it whilst typing no problems in the palm rejection work pretty much of the time and I think maybe once it looked like it wiggled the mouse honestly and initially resting your palms in the dam on the part of the keyboard anyway expand the REI or if you don't have our site maybe give you RSI anyway should measure it happens alight you naughty people and I sometimes when I get lazy do it knowledge on that's it I'm apologising myself for my wrists or my carpal tunnel is an account so that larger the larger area is just so much quicker and easier to acquire what you need to arm to get that mouse pointer and use gestures and everything and digitisers you for the trackpad denies expensive as I used to be so covering a big area really not that much extra money and frankly I think in the long term – just make the entire section below the keyboard at a body touch sensitive trackpad why not in what stop and go big article it be awesome I like trackpad so I would be really into that year but again it sort of like it's it's like the modern mouse you because it is an indirect method of manipulation is not direct like a top-down green but it is sort of I think it's more or less the pinnacle but you get people use a mouse AII mouse is still quicker trackpad and that's probably true if you're going from one side of the screen to the other then again the light of the trackpad you've got your you can actually as long as I found the trackpad as you have to do sometimes you have to use like three fingers click the three finger clicks on hold and then you drag your window you mouse whatever or whatever dragging sorry arm or single finger drag across the screen you drag logon or for drying to cast a win doesn't like direct something sometimes I'd reached the end not have to like hold my thumb on the night drag another finger across you just you need to continue to touch on it yet but another makes any sense does anyway but on the big trackpad unit or about so in any case I guess if I was looking for the ideal portable device it would have the fastest method of data entry which is a keyboard physical keyboard you have the most precise measured method of positioning and selection and I think that is actually the trackpad I actually think that is true it may not be necessarily the fastest but I think it's very precise and is really really easy to use and the bigger trackpad the better but then I thought about what what would the next thing be you know because if you think about it the keyboard itself like that the alphabetical part in the numerical part of the keyboard shift maybe tan you know the elites and the arrow keys beyond that you got a few modifiers now like you're on command option holds controller something beyond that the eye can see why they they dig the function room notice how often do you really use the function room you don't off don't use it often is silly days when you touch typing inner so if you upgrade your rock you get rid of that in fact if you're gonna get rid of another road you how many people do mass data entry on the numeric keypad right now and and and how many people are actually using the other like dollar hash percent and all that stuff is regular part touch typing I I put to you that most people don't you know so they really wanted to go on me as minimalistic as possible dig that Rocio Beno everything that Geoff that's floating around the outer narrative of Mac or MacBook pro keyboards disappearing the diameter letter incident could have yes I have yes you see I know it's a joke right I get out it it's kind of funny but that the reality is that that's bad for another reason CII thought presenting at would be better to have an all touch arm like trackpad on the bottom and all touch arm touchscreen on the top of the letters that stupid because if you do that you have a touch display on the bottom and a touch display at the top you or touches by the bottom and non-touch display at the top but then you back to what I have located key is I don't how I switch my interaction models unites that you can't you can't really have the best you can have both so it and would really gonna make the ultimate portable device that has the fastest data entry for key typing the best trackpad the indirect motion by indirect manipulation plus have touch capability would you would your answer be the touch bar you like ditching a function around chimney macro because I wouldn't because I don't think that actually having to look down that touch bar and figure out what he is and what position mean if you had to do that anyway you accept that your function keys you did anyone right there Rob Moss still got is that you can't memorise it so you can memorise risqué business while me skate my always be in a very similar sort of position but the truth is the width of that escape key the exact position it starts you it's like and I do sometimes actually touched some of function keys like volume for example touch that rely Yum Yum by feel not by sight but if they're changing all the time you don't know what's gonna be there see can't trust it's gonna be there which means you gotta look and if you look it will slow down the matter what there is thought to myself okay if I touch those buttons do they respond to my touch in the morning as I do like directly manipulate what's underneath them if they're normal if not the normal buttons you don't because you finger covers the button piano that's no good you can't click and drag very much, Ellie I think you can shuffle the indications around you got these all slide things on it but most of all you doing when using a normally and in configuring it is your actually indirectly messing with what's on screen there that's the trackpad's full and that's what I don't I don't think makes sense it's like I don't think the touch bar should should should be proud keyboard EH I think that the touch bar can still exist right that's fine it should just be part of a touch sensitive area on the bottom of the screen because I have to look at the screen and apology direct manipulation of one modifying why move miles of the screen so why not add a touch bar at the bottom of that screen and have a strip that is touch sensitive at the bottom that you can actually move those things around and watch them because maxi looking at the screen touching the screen modifying it on the screen so this whole looks look touch drag as opposed to just touch drag you so the thing you're touching is on the same display can touch and drag it now but the current touch by gotta look then touch then drag and then look back I begin to see what is doing finger slides out of position you are lucky you look back down again but it's all the screen front you don't it sort of would end up being a blend between an indirect and direct action some I think is directly interacting with what I'm seeing whereas the touch bar is indirect but I still have to look at it before I tell you about I think that I think within the context of the MacBook Pro your argument doesn't I would say it's wrong but I am not sure it is applicable because it is practically part of the screen only it's only of brain injury shall arm as forest people saying that they're in order for this to really get mass adoption and for people to really start using it and integrating it into the way they work that needs to be some sort of option that accommodates desktops I would see you're probably definitely rate it should be more close to being part of the screen then attached to Lake was people I've seen say they want to unite and the magic keyboard that scattered integrated into it you but the problem causes you can't guarantee that that keyboard and a touch bar is can actually be anywhere near screen if you exactly that Rocio I think your argument really holds up and in that context because in there and most of the time you know and most setups I would imagine probably 95 a better percentage of them the keyboards probably usually can be at least a good foot away from the screen if not more you exactly right so the thing is then if that's true then the only thing keeping a touch bar they're the only device could work on is a laptop I'm no doubt that the only good work on your so the thing and the thing I got God final issue with though is that you if you're saying well I have to look down at that part of my laptop anyway arm if if I had a touch bar on the vertical plane as opposed the horizontal plane is not much more a stretch to look I want to know and ensure to slightly downwards or upwards it doesn't make too much of a difference but it's not so much about that it's about the fact that if I'm looking down I can sort of peripherally see at the very top of my eyesight what's going on screen but if I'm actually looking up at the closer I am to the vertical plane the less peripheral it is that's almost in my main field of view there and think about this this weird thing about yellow dragging icons onto that touch bar when you doing that whole configuring thing and it's like you Dragon down to was a bold screen they appear in everything a psychologist imagine that would actually work perfectly if it was all on the same screen or if it was stitched so it looked like it was on same screen even though two separate ones that they would just be so much better so the question is whether or not it is down to a detached keyboard foot Hathaway why does make sense either right to solicit my point is it should be part of the screen not part of the keyboard year but Apple is not making screens anymore John Bonis therefore that obviously there fault is their choice good all-rounder otherwise I around it either apparently modern rebooting my Apple TV my Time Capsule that much lately I had to rebuild about once a month as it locks up can do about it and so the mind mind most of the trip parallel touch lucky you may put one of the older ones that still had flat though and I have the toll tower shaped with a non-insane but I've got to sell the flat down square want to but just back on this again on I guess my problem is that it's just what exactly have we gained here we've gained a little bit of flexibility in is it really that much unite statistic feels like we just haven't gained very much if you really want to save space me what we try not let someone try to optimise this you take the keys that you touch the least and that obviously the function keys get off the keyboard I still think that most people wouldn't care too much about losing that the number keys they might get a bit annoyed maybe it's my CD-ROM DVD-ROM decisions you know I could take courage of some think you could go into parole laptop without number one identity and corporate allow people you get older parole laptop at all anymore but you deftly greatly outnumbered AAA think that that the people that were missed those number keys is a little higher percentage than than you think well yeah okay but I'm in my point is that you would if you I still think you could and I think you could dig in and I think you'd be back to basically four rows and if you move those four keys further up that would mean you could make this an enormous area all in the bottom half of that of that laptop all that would be a trackpad are you thinking like a touch more attractive and no I'm thinking about now I'm thinking about you put the touch bar at the bottom of the screen you hinge and then you would put the keyboard and you move those four rows starting at the QWERTY row up as close as you can do that hinge may be liver space for the speaker line perhaps or cooling vents or something and then at the bottom you have an entire touch surface area for a trackpad that goes adult allege or may not edge-to-edge maybe a slight slide borderline but you essentially width with wiser laptop mice a few in a few one fractions of an inch but say and I think that that would be the ultimate expression because what you have is you have this enormous area for indirect interaction you have a canary at the bottom that was a shared space that you could configure the buttons and you could do everyone with any could have your key your lesser use keys there and then you have the normal screen but of course that is also sort of ignoring what's a lot of these full touchscreen laptops are doing right now you know so I guess I will talk about that so ER and indicated think that I think the marks of doing it right me the not but because there trackpad for example you look at the surface pro arm all this yard servers book the trackpad horrible area that the tiny the awkward there is an annoying is how the keyboards don't sort of off load the rarely used his the touchscreen when they potentially could and an Windows 10 sizes idea that either in touch modal mouse might when in fact the difference between your modes so marginal is essentially pointless except reality no and your compromises you've made with your user interface ready hardware battery doesn't last you know it's just anyway that the bottom line is that you know is also Windows and manures when mics of Windows gripe is enforced update stigma Stalin that maybe next episode the whole problem with the touch bar is usually look before you touch and as far as I can sort consent that to solve problem it's called physical buttons so I did physical buttons you would make them virtual buttons if you do that you would go to a more direct interaction model but the problem is Apple made their choice and they said you know what iOS and OS X are not gonna cross paths in that interaction model but they've sort of started to do that with a touch bar my argument is simply that the position of it doesn't make sense on the keyboard plane that's all but if you want to have a reconfigurable keyboard then you should use a touchscreen and that's a solve problem it's called my pad so you if you want the best absolute best mounts point mouse pointer vice mice have gone through as far as you can and you can't make them portable as part of the laptops a trackpad ultimately are still your best bet and they're still very good except the last thing about speed down the track I was already really good making it big is great provided you get power projection right looks like Apple have so that's awesome so if there are ways you can offload really use keys then use a soft touchscreen area I think that's your best bet rather than making your users look too much further down at the keyboard plane to see a touch and I just think it's inefficient I think they got wrong as I think but then again the flipside of that is if you imagine the screen discuss trip along the bottom of the touch sensitive and 95% of it above that is not touch sensitive than the confusing ER in that also confusing so I don't know ultimately whether or not the touch bar actually makes sense and the thing is Apple aren't stupid in our Apple Apple obviously is they believe very strongly in a separate a lot of money behind the touch bartenders do it on a whim in Adelaide they actually believe that this is a good thing but I'll be honest man when I used it just didn't didn't click for me at all I die I don't see that the utility has much beyond novelty down and any or out later that never but I've never played with one silo capacity judgement on under the object were talking about all your judgement of the object reduction about but I know most of the reports of sinful people are reusing them they seem to like them John Wallace fine and they're welcome to but I would suggest that that is and can last and I would suggest I would suggest that ultimately in terms of user interface design as well as confusing crossovers that has some kind of novelty appeal but the thing is if it's stuck on laptops that the only things that evidently use it ignoring your desktop market and OS X as it is is is a desktop operating system you would definitely agree with you on that II think that they do need to if they really want the state to be a viable option for it for the masses they they have to figure out a way to accommodate the desktop they absolutely do and is not to any other thing that that also occurs to me is that I know you people sort of saying all this never work if you've got a separate keyboard and if you're desperate have a separate keyboard but a laptop you always can have your laptop keyboard well yeah and no because whenever I use my laptop if I was in a meeting was on the train and I take training more but if I was I use in laptop mode in which case I could use the touch bar was ever at my desk I would never ever use that our board I was always plugging into an external keyboard and I and I had my laptop opened up on an elevation stand so that I had as a screen and I have an external keyboard plug to external display slide three screens out some people claim case and I don't like doing that because of heat dissipation problems so ultimately as far as I'm concerned at least arm it just makes no sense because it is a feature that is worth 23% more than a MacBook escape model and I would only use it a fraction of the time so I don't it's just you and I go Yates at my use cases all the matters now is not obviously not and I think that the people using it that's great I'm happy for them but NFA like it that's awesome but honestly for me I think it's just it's confusing you know like it's like it's a strange hybrid that that genetically speaking Darwin will take care of that's what I feel it's just not the is long for this we like to see for it was that a standalone touch motor base just introduce 1/3 third accessory know you get your UK wireless keyboard Newgate wireless mouse and I think that they should consider our wireless touch more and is just maybe maybe some sort of wedge-shaped thing that could sit mostly on the desk or maybe even some fancy magnet tax so that if they hypothetically still had an Apple display they could make it so that it is perfectly stuck rate to the bottom of that screen and a nice place and people could put it where they wanted to I think there will be clinical I think because well but I'm reasonably sure Apple is never gonna do that you will be further numbered to but I think that that would add that's what I'd like to see only you could use that within it you could use that you know if your lap if you go are an iMac you can use it if you get a macro tryout trashcan that doesn't seem to get updated you could use it if you guard a laptop that is in clamshell mode you can still use it you understand you it's it's it's an interesting idea but you just I guess some amount look at the teardown this in the amount of time and effort that Apple is put in designing it's got its own processor that deals with it in its daily basically Applewhite Bell built into the laptop I think whatever you mean it's it's they put some serious engineering into it and I and I look at our distinct myself well frankly why and recently I was some recording and had an episode of vav analytical little come out in a couple weeks time and it's about focus you no arms of not listening to analytical you should be listening to have a look at anyway and I was I was doing research on this and I went back to that Steve jobs thing are the Q&A session again famously after W WDC in 1997 so he just come back to the company and gone and like trash whole bunch of stuff in a you and he gives this three minutes peel about focus is saying no which is something that first one I heard it aside it stood with me arm in business and in life pretty much arm since hearing as well as things he said it's really really resonated with me and you know he goes on this rant about how you know someone asked about OpenDoc having spiky and what about OpenDoc I can it's dead right like I kill it right it's gone and there's a lot of people are upset about that you and it's like he said well engineers were going off in Apple doing in different directions doing arguably interesting things but there was no level of management of saying in the grand scheme of things this doesn't make sense this doesn't fit you know you and individually they made sense but overall they made no sense and this feels very much like to me like apples sort of heading lower back that way you know if feels like they're starting to hybridise things and look for something that isn't there by their spending time off on a tangent and is not working out and and I feel like a night on the panic stations yet but you know I did some ice on the MacBook Pro didn't work many more arm I had my got a better offer in a sense may wish to read that next episode but arm the truth is that I do I feel like your sister something just doesn't sit right about this touch bar it so it has all the core buttons but doesn't handle a practical ones and the director is don't think it's it's it's worth it's not worth the money and asset adenoma only to say any other thoughts or comments are only good actor travelling with one undeniable curious to see what it's like I don't know how I feel about having one because a kind and decided that my dream machine was can be an iMac that may possibly get updated one day and in the modern current hardware is that you are today compared some of the other stuff but I was drooling about a maximum of five key display for that and then the judge bark email and I will may be a need to think about another MacBook Pro again so I don't know well if the MacBook Pro remains the only way you can have the Dutch boy to play with are probably not going that row just because at later to have access to it both and I think Lizzie what happens I heard the arguments that's you I'm going to have when you have touch bar because apples invest a lot of time and it looks like somebody really keen on there it is like that's there's an interesting argument to put down an extra what five $600 further no other benefit it's like it's is quite young to change just for yeah we do want because Apple are looked like their keen there and I refer people back OpenDoc they seem to be keen about OpenDoc humpy I know it's I know it's talking she's another different things I get I get totally to get bites seriously I me I guess time will tell only until three is time maybe it'll be everywhere may be reliable and all the other machines at their look like dinosaurs because of it because they don't have it bites and I and then I guess I'll leave my words at that point arm empty no clam chowder and whatever but I do know cleaning the shower clamshell site and I will see me not doom and gloom predictions just you deny businesses feels off anyway if you wanted more about this you can reach me on Twitter and John CG or you can follow a pragmatic show to see show announcements and other related stuff pragmatic is of course part of the engineer network and you can check out the network and all the shows at anytime you like causality has really taken off it's a solid podcast that I do and looks at cause and effect of major events and disasters that have occurred in history so if you're a fan of this show you may like it as well so make sure you check that one out I mention analytical before both causality analytical episodes there about 1030 minutes each to the pretty easy listening easy on the ears so are not huge time commitment so when GOR go check them out when you spare 1015 minutes and if you like to get in touch with the Vic are was the best way to begin touch the mate they can find me on Twitter at the cuts in one fantastic and if you like silly feedback about the show all the network please use the feedback from the website that's where you'll also find show notes for this episode if you're enjoying pragmatic anyone support the show the best way that you can do that is to Bacchus on Patriot on our like one of our backers has a Chris stone he and many others are pages that show schedule and the like something that all very much special thank you to our patrons and a big thank you to everyone listening and always that Bradley don't no worries mate now. Touching the bar you judging your guide to the next level can I really who I really would like to see that I get to knock in the ghetto overlap in a noisy pipedream but that's what I like to see spiked only a pipedream pipe pipedream Bream pipe type like the analogy said my mouth my mouth lips didn't cover around the word thing can get no focus�
Duration 52 minutes and 46 seconds Direct Download

Show Notes

Miscellaneous Links:

Episode Gold Producer: 'r'.
Episode Silver Producer: Chris Stone.
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Vic Hudson

Vic Hudson

Vic is the host of the App Story Podcast and is the developer behind Money Pilot for iOS.

John Chidgey

John Chidgey

John is an Electrical, Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer, software developer, podcaster, vocal actor and runs TechDistortion and the Engineered Network. John is a Chartered Professional Engineer in both Electrical Engineering and Information, Telecommunications and Electronics Engineering (ITEE) and a semi-regular conference speaker.

John has produced and appeared on many podcasts including Pragmatic and Causality and is available for hire for Vocal Acting or advertising. He has experience and interest in HMI Design, Alarm Management, Cyber-security and Root Cause Analysis.

You can find him on the Fediverse and on Twitter.